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Author Topic: Canonical churches in France.  (Read 432 times) Average Rating: 0
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Sophie
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« on: October 27, 2012, 11:17:14 AM »

Hello everyone,

I hope this is the right place for this question.

it has been a really really long time since the last time I was in this forum. I have a question regarding canonical churches in France as I plan to start attending somewhere closer to where I live (summary: GO, live in northern Spain, had been attending in Madrid once a month although it is too far away and eventually stopped. A couple of Russian churches closer although not having a regular liturgy it seems and a Romanian one, but the latter far too incomprehensible for me, even the chanting sounds different). Because of circumstances,  with France being next door to me, I checked and found out there are two churches in the closest French city to me: One of the Orthodox Church of France and the other a ROCOR church. I think the first one is not canonical from what I can find on the Internet, I am in doubt about whether I could attend the latter (once someone can attend me on the phone and let me know the timetable). Any information is welcome.

I hope everyone is doing well. God bless you all.
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Cyrillic
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« Reply #1 on: October 27, 2012, 11:41:21 AM »

ROCOR is definitly canonical. Why don't you go there? The Orthodox Church of France is not canonical.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2012, 11:42:35 AM by Cyrillic » Logged

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Sophie
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« Reply #2 on: October 27, 2012, 11:47:29 AM »

Thank you very much for the prompt reply. I am thinking of going there. I need to find out what times the services are as I live almost 2hrs away and cannot risk getting there too late. Nobody answers the phone for now. I will keep trying.
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« Reply #3 on: October 27, 2012, 12:03:33 PM »

Thank you very much for the prompt reply. I am thinking of going there. I need to find out what times the services are as I live almost 2hrs away and cannot risk getting there too late. Nobody answers the phone for now. I will keep trying.

Don't they have a website?
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Πρὸς δὲ τὸν ἀξιοῦντα δημοκρατίαν ἐν τῇ πόλει καταστήσασθαι ὁ Λυκοῦργος εἶπε 'σὺ πρῶτος ἐν τῇ οἰκίᾳ σου ποίησον δημοκρατίαν.'
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Sophie
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« Reply #4 on: October 27, 2012, 12:23:17 PM »

No, they don´t. We are talking about really small Orthodox populations up here, and mostly foreigners or first generation French and Spanish citizens. A little to the south from where I live, there are a lot of Romanians, still, they have to "borrow" a catholic church to have their services on Sundays.

I just came across another Orthodox church proclaiming to be under the "True Orthodox Church synod of His Beatitude Archbishop Makarios of Athens and all Greece". Ring any bells? Is that Old Calendar or something?
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« Reply #5 on: October 27, 2012, 12:25:49 PM »

Yes, Old Calendarist. His Beatitude Ieronymos II is the current canonical archbishop of Athens.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2012, 12:27:33 PM by Cyrillic » Logged

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Πρὸς δὲ τὸν ἀξιοῦντα δημοκρατίαν ἐν τῇ πόλει καταστήσασθαι ὁ Λυκοῦργος εἶπε 'σὺ πρῶτος ἐν τῇ οἰκίᾳ σου ποίησον δημοκρατίαν.'
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Sophie
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« Reply #6 on: October 27, 2012, 12:33:57 PM »

Thank you very much,

it seems then that the ROCOR church is the only option. And I managed to get someone on the phone who informed me Liturgy is at 10.30 which makes it a very good time to get there from where I live (They wanted to know whether I was Russian too - it is like a joke, a Greek who lives in Spain, attending a Russian church in France  Grin).

« Last Edit: October 27, 2012, 12:37:08 PM by Sophie » Logged

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« Reply #7 on: October 28, 2012, 01:29:23 PM »

you can also check here: http://www.orthodoxesaparis.org/eglises/eglises_paroisses.htm#dep

and that's the dioceasan directory: http://www.diocesedegeneve.net/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=40&Itemid=39
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« Reply #8 on: October 28, 2012, 02:59:46 PM »

these are canonical oriental orthodox churches in france (under the coptic church):
http://www.moneglisecopte.com/html/l_eglise_copte/pages/contenu_lieux_de_culte.html

this page is a link from:
http://eocf.free.fr/lieux.htm
which has general information.

if the coptic church in france is like the british orthodox church, it is likely they will share Holy Communion with eastern orthodox Christians.
if you have an eastern orthodox father of confession, you should ask him first if it's is ok to commune with us.

i don't know france well enough to know if any are in the south, and i hope u already found a church today,
but i have posted this link in case you (or others in france) may need it.

i am impressed you are making a big effort to go to church, it reminds us all to be diligent in searching for God always
and to take care to work hard on our spiritual journey and to put God first in everything.
may God guide u.
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Sophie
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« Reply #9 on: October 29, 2012, 11:49:54 AM »

Thank you for the additional info. There seems to be a Coptic church in this city. I do not have a single father of confession, I have always confessed to the priest I could get access to at the time (a pretty solitary sheep due to circumstances and a very confused and frustrated sheep at that...) I guess ROCOR has preference over Coptic church for the GO, but GO in this forum are welcome to offer advice...
Please do not be impressed with my "effort", I am not doing any, yesterday I actually failed to get there. On the other hand, I am finding myself continuously "falling" lately, rather than putting God first or working on my spiritual journey...yesterday for that matter I had a pretty severe "fall", perhaps one of the worst in my life so I would like to ask you for your prayers...
« Last Edit: October 29, 2012, 11:50:27 AM by Sophie » Logged

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« Reply #10 on: October 29, 2012, 12:01:47 PM »

A couple of Russian churches closer although not having a regular liturgy it seems and a Romanian one, but the latter far too incomprehensible for me, even the chanting sounds different

I'm curious about you finding a Romanian Liturgy relatively less comprehensible than Russian - I'd have actually expected the exact opposite. Romanian practices tend to fall in between Greek and Russian and most Romanian chant is certainly Byzantine which is definitely not the case for the Russians. Romanian is also a romance language so if you can speak French or Spanish, you should be able to understand snatches of it at least (although I can't make any guarantees of that as I hear Italians find Romanian very hard to understand while Romanians generally understand Italian without too much difficulty, so the similarities don't necessarily work both ways). Certainly I can understand some Italian and Spanish (particularly written) as a direct result of speaking Romanian, though I can't speak either one.

James
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« Reply #11 on: October 29, 2012, 12:19:11 PM »

I have never been in an entirely Russian Liturgy. The Liturgy I used to attend in Madrid was in Greek and Russian, alternating these two languages throughout its duration, adding Spanish at times. So, I more or less knew what came next. The couple of times I attended a Romanian Liturgy (apart from not being able to get there from the beginning), the chanting did not sound familiar, I could distinguish certain words but no part of the liturgy sounded remotely familiar and, crazy as it seems, I did not get to see any Eucharist taking place (and yes it was a Romanian Orthodox Liturgy). So, I felt completely lost. I found out there is a Romanian Liturgy at 55min. from where I live, I may have to try once more to see if I get it this time (again, they are borrowing a Catholic church for the services). It is not only the language that is the problem, it does not sound byzantine at all (despite my ignorance in general, I recognise from experience the melody that goes with the important passages in a Byzantine liturgy, and this is not the case here).
« Last Edit: October 29, 2012, 12:22:26 PM by Sophie » Logged

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« Reply #12 on: October 29, 2012, 12:46:47 PM »

I have never been in an entirely Russian Liturgy. The Liturgy I used to attend in Madrid was in Greek and Russian, alternating these two languages throughout its duration, adding Spanish at times. So, I more or less knew what came next. The couple of times I attended a Romanian Liturgy (apart from not being able to get there from the beginning), the chanting did not sound familiar, I could distinguish certain words but no part of the liturgy sounded remotely familiar and, crazy as it seems, I did not get to see any Eucharist taking place (and yes it was a Romanian Orthodox Liturgy). So, I felt completely lost. I found out there is a Romanian Liturgy at 55min. from where I live, I may have to try once more to see if I get it this time (again, they are borrowing a Catholic church for the services). It is not only the language that is the problem, it does not sound byzantine at all (despite my ignorance in general, I recognise from experience the melody that goes with the important passages in a Byzantine liturgy, and this is not the case here).

It is Byzantine (generally, there's apparently some non-Byzantine Romanian chant that I've never actually heard). I know from experience as I'm struggling to learn the notation and the tones at the moment. You wouldn't expect to necessarily recognise a particular melody. I don't necessarily recognise the melodies when I attend non-Romanian Liturgies either. The thing is that Byzantine chant is very tied up with the actual words used so if the language changes you can't necessarily use the exact same melody. So, for instance it's pretty difficult to fit the English 'Holy God, Holy Mighty, Holy Immortal' to any melody you'd use for 'Sfinte Dumnezeule, Sfinte tare, Sfinte fără de moarte' (incidentally a good point to look out for if you do visit a Romanian liturgy again). It's not totally impossible, but it certainly doesn't fit well at all. If you do decide to go again I'd be interested to hear whether you still find it as baffling. I generally know where I am in Greek Liturgies because we used to attend a Greek church but undoubtedly I feel much happier with Romanian as I speak the language. Russian feels much further away from what I'm used to than Greek though, which is why I was surprised at your OP.

James
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« Reply #13 on: October 29, 2012, 01:29:45 PM »

Perhaps they use non-Byzantine Romanian chant then... I have been to GO Byzantine Liturgies in 3 different countries so far (using Greek, English, Russian, Spanish and even Ucrainian language in the services). I have heard different kind of choirs and chanters in these liturgies. I never noticed much difference. The Romanian liturgy I attended was something completely outside my previous experience, perhaps totally unfamiliar... The church in Madrid is under the Patriarchate of Istanbul so I think the Russian language used is a concession to the very important number of Russian believers who attend (more Russians than Greeks).
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