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Author Topic: Who is responsible for Christ's death?  (Read 2961 times) Average Rating: 0
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neon_knights
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« on: October 26, 2012, 08:06:33 PM »

What do you Orthodox folks say about this?

For centuries, Christians have placed the guilt of Christ's death on the Jews, and anti-Semitism seemed to be rampant among Christianity in it's first 1900 years of existence. Many of Christianity's most revered and respected figures(e.g., Chrysostom, Ambrose, Luther) made some very anti-Semitic comments in their writings, and instances of persecution and blood libels were extremely common. I think I remember seeing on this board a thread about certain blood libel saints, child saints that were invented to accuse Jews of sacrificing Christian children.

Most hierarchical churches only seemed to change their position on this issue in the mid 20th century. Could this be an example of a Christian "tradition" that needed to be abandoned?

Do the Gospel accounts contain anti-Semitic undertones? What do you all think of Matthew 27:25?

The reason I ask is, I am watching Passion of the Christ in my school film class, and of course the question of anti-Semitism in the movie came up.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2012, 08:07:43 PM by neon_knights » Logged
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« Reply #1 on: October 26, 2012, 08:33:20 PM »

Anti-seminitism is defined very broadly and very conveniently.

Many of the liturgical texts and writings of the Fathers thought to be anti-semitic by Jews are not against Jews as a people, but against Judaism--a religion which has plenty of anti-Christian texts and sentiments throughout history and until today--and this at times and in places where there was no Christian power to accuse of oppression.

As for Christ's death:

1. It was voluntary.
2. He said, "the one who handed me over to you is guilty of the greater sin"
3. The Jewish religious leadership of the time, out of jealously and because the Lord called them to account, plotted to kill him and riled up the crowd to demand the crucifixion.
4. Human justice was perverted by self-interest
5. The Lord forgave those who crucified Him
6. Blood libels are very inflated and have never been official teaching of the Church, but come from ignorance and convenience (again)--the same reason for Jewish crimes against Christians and the crucifixion itself.
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« Reply #2 on: October 26, 2012, 08:49:39 PM »

IMO, from a practical standpoint (that is, excluding the voluntariness of his death, and the fact that He died for all mankind - consequently making the fault one really of all humanity, in some sense especially of Adam and Eve), it was the fault of much of the Jewish leadership (who wanted Him dead for a variety of reasons, in part because He was being called King of the Jews, and would have upset their political regime, and also possibly because they thought He was calling Himself God while they didn't believe Him to be), and also of Pilate.  Pilate is very much to blame.
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« Reply #3 on: October 26, 2012, 08:58:27 PM »

Pilate is very much to blame.

Well not according to Christ, as stated above by Shanghaiski. (John 19:11)

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« Reply #4 on: October 26, 2012, 09:01:20 PM »

Pilate is very much to blame.

He's certainly complicit, but I don't get that focus on him from Holy Scripture, Orthodox services, or the Holy Fathers.

This rather new emphasis on Pilate's guilt fits in nicely with certain agendas though.
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« Reply #5 on: October 26, 2012, 09:04:56 PM »

I am , he died for my sins.
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« Reply #6 on: October 26, 2012, 09:13:39 PM »

See below post.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2012, 09:20:53 PM by neon_knights » Logged
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« Reply #7 on: October 26, 2012, 09:19:54 PM »

Many of the liturgical texts and writings of the Fathers thought to be anti-semitic by Jews are not against Jews as a people, but against Judaism

This really can't be true.

Quote
“The Jews are the most worthless of all men. They are lecherous, greedy, rapacious. They are perfidious murderers of Christ. They worship the Devil. Their religion is a sickness. The Jews are the odious assassins of Christ and for killing God there is no expiation possible, no indulgence or pardon. Christians may never cease vengeance, and the Jew must live in servitude forever. God always hated the Jews. It is essential that all Christians hate them.”
- St Ambrose

Quote
“Where Christ-killers gather, the cross is ridiculed, God blasphemed, the father unacknowledged, the son insulted, the grace of the Spirit rejected. . . .If the Jewish rites are holy and venerable, our way of life must be false. But if our way is true, as indeed it is, theirs is fraudulent. I am not speaking of the Scriptures. Far from it!.. I am speaking of their present impiety and madness.”


Quote
"Although such beasts are unfit for work, they are fit for killing. And this is what happened to the Jews: while they were making themselves unfit for work, they grew fit for slaughter. This is why Christ said: "But as for these my enemies, who did not want me to be king over them, bring them here and slay them"
- St. John Chrysostom

Even worse, comments from Luther:

Quote
Therefore the blind Jews are truly stupid fools...

Quote
Accordingly, it must and dare not be considered a trifling matter but a most serious one to seek counsel against this and to save our souls from the Jews, that is, from the devil and from eternal death. My advice, as I said earlier, is:

First, that their synagogues be burned down, and that all who are able toss sulphur and pitch; it would be good if someone could also throw in some hellfire...

Second, that all their books-- their prayer books, their Talmudic writings, also the entire Bible-- be taken from them, not leaving them one leaf, and that these be preserved for those who may be converted...

Third, that they be forbidden on pain of death to praise God, to give thanks, to pray, and to teach publicly among us and in our country...

Fourth, that they be forbidden to utter the name of God within our hearing. For we cannot with a good conscience listen to this or tolerate it...


Yeah sure, keep telling yourself that urging all Christians to hate Jews, calling their religion "a sickness", claiming they worship Satan, calling them "Christ-killers"(it disgusts me to even type that term...), calling them "stupid fools", saying that Jews are worthy of being killed, and advocating the burning of synagogues is "anti-Judaism", but not "anti-Jew".

Christianity has a history of Jew-hatred. It's no secret, it's a dirty part of our history but there's absolutely no sense in covering it up. As I've proven above, some of our faith's most respected leaders hated the Jews.

It's pretty obvious that the teaching of the church at one point condoned the hatred of Jews. Can you show me any saint or bishop from the early Christian period who condemned Jew-hatred? I'm not challenging you or anything, I would actually be very happy and relieved to see such a thing.

The ultimate question is, what role does the Bible have in this obvious anti-Jewish sentiment that was so prevalent in early Christianity?

It just discomforts me whenever I see in the Gospels: "the Jews" did this... "the Jews" did that...

Am I reading something into the text that isn't there? Was early Christian anti-Jewish sentiment primarily a cause of culture and ignorance, or was this sentiment present among the Gospel writers and promoted in their writings?
« Last Edit: October 26, 2012, 09:20:23 PM by neon_knights » Logged
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« Reply #8 on: October 26, 2012, 10:33:18 PM »

Pilate is very much to blame.

Well not according to Christ, as stated above by Shanghaiski. (John 19:11)

I think my wording was less precise then it should have been; I didn't mean to imply that Pilate was chiefly responsible, just that without Pilate's complicity the Cruxifixion wouldn't have happened (Pilate was very good at putting down uprisings, and had the mob of Jewish leaders attempted to murder Christ on their own, Pilate would have almost certainly used the full weight of his army to put them down, for political reasons).
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« Reply #9 on: October 26, 2012, 11:04:38 PM »

I am , he died for my sins.
This. And Israel crucified their God.
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« Reply #10 on: October 26, 2012, 11:12:22 PM »

I am , he died for my sins.
This. And Israel crucified their God.
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"The Redeemer of Israel, their Holy One, to Him whom man (the world) despises, to Him whom the nation (Israel) abhors." -Isaiah 49:7

That being said, I do not condone hatred of Jews as a people.

"Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all." -Colossians 3:11
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« Reply #11 on: October 27, 2012, 12:34:01 AM »

That being said, I do not condone hatred of Jews as a people.

Several of your church fathers did, though.
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« Reply #12 on: October 27, 2012, 12:43:21 AM »

Quote
It just discomforts me whenever I see in the Gospels: "the Jews" did this... "the Jews" did that...
Why? It's just the truth.

Just as the Jews aren't to be looked down upon as a people, neither are they to be put up on a pedestal, free from accurate reporting of any bad thing they have done in their history, simple because of the great persecution they have endured recently.
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« Reply #13 on: October 27, 2012, 12:43:54 AM »

That being said, I do not condone hatred of Jews as a people.

Several of your church fathers did, though.
The church fathers are fallible.
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« Reply #14 on: October 27, 2012, 12:48:51 AM »

Quote
It just discomforts me whenever I see in the Gospels: "the Jews" did this... "the Jews" did that...
Why? It's just the truth.

Just as the Jews aren't to be looked down upon as a people, neither are they to be put up on a pedestal, free from accurate reporting of any bad thing they have done in their history, simple because of the great persecution they have endured recently.

Is it the truth?  Did Jews in Rome have any part in the execution of Christ?
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« Reply #15 on: October 27, 2012, 12:59:54 AM »

Would you rather the writers of the Gospels outline the origins of every Jew that participated in those acts? I mean, really. How else were they to define them? "All those men that happened to be Jewish"? Their usage makes perfect sense.

How far must we go to pick apart the four evangelists?

It is a shame when people pick apart the faith because of modern issues and politics.
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« Reply #16 on: October 27, 2012, 01:45:48 AM »

Would you rather the writers of the Gospels outline the origins of every Jew that participated in those acts? I mean, really. How else were they to define them? "All those men that happened to be Jewish"? Their usage makes perfect sense.

How far must we go to pick apart the four evangelists?

It is a shame when people pick apart the faith because of modern issues and politics.

I'm just saying it is anything but precise to say "the Jews" did this as opposed to "some Jews"
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« Reply #17 on: October 27, 2012, 02:07:00 AM »

But one must keep in mind the Jews of then and the Jews of now, in terms of organization, are very different. If "some Jews" performed those acts, then "the Jews" performed the act, because they were led by the Jewish elders as a whole, mass unit (by-and-large). They were not going out and performing these things as a personal act of "vigilante justice," they were goated and led by their elders. So yes, it was very much "the Jews" rather than "some Jews", or, at least, that is what the Scriptures tell us.

I think it is very dangerous to try and apply our own modern vision to the writings of these men who knew Christ. Who are we to compare ourselves to the Holy Apostles, to the Evangelists? To try and challenge their style of writing?
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« Reply #18 on: October 27, 2012, 02:09:27 AM »

But one must keep in mind the Jews of then and the Jews of now, in terms of organization, are very different. If "some Jews" performed those acts, then "the Jews" performed the act, because they were led by the Jewish elders as a whole, mass unit (by-and-large). They were not going out and performing these things as a personal act of "vigilante justice," they were goated and led by their elders. So yes, it was very much "the Jews" rather than "some Jews", or, at least, that is what the Scriptures tell us.

I think it is very dangerous to try and apply our own modern vision to the writings of these men who knew Christ. Who are we to compare ourselves to the Holy Apostles, to the Evangelists? To try and challenge their style of writing?

So the Jews of Athens killed Christ?  Yeah...that makes sense.

I suppose you killed innocent people with drone strikes, because that's what the American government did.
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« Reply #19 on: October 27, 2012, 02:30:06 AM »

As far as the absolute concrete reality of the question goes yes: there are those who are racist in The Church. There always has been. There will be. We can condemn phyletism, racism, bigotry, whatever, as much as we like and men will still be so. We've condemned sin for 2,000 years and they still sin, so we don't hold out hope for a sudden adherence to all virtues.

Saying "The Americans kill innocent people with drone strikes" is perfectly fine to say, as it's true. If it were not acceptable to say so individuals would not protest against it, because they could say without hypocrisy "Well, I didn't." They recognize they have some part in that by virtue of being American, even while recognizing they do not bear any substantive guilt for it. To say each individual possesses the quality of the collective, however, is the fallacy of division: a quality possessed by the whole is not logically extendable to its parts. Thus while we can say truthfully and without shame "The Jews killed Christ" (if we wanted to, I don't quite see the point in saying so because I agree with the poster who said he could just as easily say "I killed Christ") we could not extend that to say "Thus, my friend Benjamin who is Jewish killed Christ."

Finally St. John was not actually speaking to Jews in his sermons that are labeled by contemporaries as "anti-semitic." He was speaking to "Judaizers" that is, Christians (I believe in Antioch) who were practicing Jewish Rituals. Furthermore his sermons follow a widely known and acceptable form of Greek rhetoric. You can read about it online, but there are also some books about it: http://www.amazon.com/John-Chrysostom-Jews-Rhetoric-Reality/dp/1592449425

 
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« Reply #20 on: October 27, 2012, 04:42:09 AM »

You have to keep in mind that for years Jews were persecuting Christians, so of course some figures in the Church were going to have backlash against them. It's like when White people complain about Blacks and Latinos making hostile comments about them even though they had been mistreating them for years. There is also the fact that even to this day the Jews have been persecuting Orthodox Christians in Israel, forced the Orthodox Christians to relocate and have suckered millions of religious-right Evangelical American lap-dogs into supporting their violent regimes that persecute Christians. Our tax dollars which the US uses to aid Israel are ultimately going to support violent regimes that persecute us. That's right. You are paying to persecute Orthodox Christians. Also, being 'Jewish' does not refer to a particular race or bloodline. It refers to your religion. Jews were only classified as a race by the United States sometime during the mid-20th century to combat anti-Semitism. The Fathers were speaking out against people who had chosen to adhere to a religion that the Church considered utterly incomplete and abominable.
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« Reply #21 on: October 27, 2012, 06:25:24 AM »

Quote
It just discomforts me whenever I see in the Gospels: "the Jews" did this... "the Jews" did that...
Why? It's just the truth.

Just as the Jews aren't to be looked down upon as a people, neither are they to be put up on a pedestal, free from accurate reporting of any bad thing they have done in their history, simple because of the great persecution they have endured recently.

Is it the truth?  Did Jews in Rome have any part in the execution of Christ?

They did have part in the execution of Sts. Peter and Paul under Nero.
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« Reply #22 on: October 27, 2012, 06:44:38 AM »

I submit this question to all willing to answer it: if the Jews killed Jesus, then did Jesus commit suicide?
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« Reply #23 on: October 27, 2012, 08:38:59 AM »

I submit this question to all willing to answer it: if the Jews killed Jesus, then did Jesus commit suicide?

If someone is killed, that is not suicide.  Grin
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« Reply #24 on: October 27, 2012, 08:45:08 AM »


Do the Gospel accounts contain anti-Semitic undertones? What do you all think of Matthew 27:25?


In reply all the people said, “Let his blood be on us and on our children!” (Matthew 27:25)

This verse only reports what the people said in response to Pilate's statement. This is why it is anything but anti-Semitic. If this verse is anti-Semitic, so is the following verse in the Tanakh:

"But you should take careful note of this: If you put me to death, you will bring on yourselves and this city and those who live in it the guilt of murdering an innocent man". (Jeremiah 26:15)

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« Reply #25 on: October 27, 2012, 08:49:46 AM »

Many of the liturgical texts and writings of the Fathers thought to be anti-semitic by Jews are not against Jews as a people, but against Judaism

This really can't be true.

Quote
“The Jews are the most worthless of all men. They are lecherous, greedy, rapacious. They are perfidious murderers of Christ. They worship the Devil. Their religion is a sickness. The Jews are the odious assassins of Christ and for killing God there is no expiation possible, no indulgence or pardon. Christians may never cease vengeance, and the Jew must live in servitude forever. God always hated the Jews. It is essential that all Christians hate them.”
- St Ambrose

Quote
“Where Christ-killers gather, the cross is ridiculed, God blasphemed, the father unacknowledged, the son insulted, the grace of the Spirit rejected. . . .If the Jewish rites are holy and venerable, our way of life must be false. But if our way is true, as indeed it is, theirs is fraudulent. I am not speaking of the Scriptures. Far from it!.. I am speaking of their present impiety and madness.”


Quote
"Although such beasts are unfit for work, they are fit for killing. And this is what happened to the Jews: while they were making themselves unfit for work, they grew fit for slaughter. This is why Christ said: "But as for these my enemies, who did not want me to be king over them, bring them here and slay them"
- St. John Chrysostom

Even worse, comments from Luther:

Quote
Therefore the blind Jews are truly stupid fools...

Quote
Accordingly, it must and dare not be considered a trifling matter but a most serious one to seek counsel against this and to save our souls from the Jews, that is, from the devil and from eternal death. My advice, as I said earlier, is:

First, that their synagogues be burned down, and that all who are able toss sulphur and pitch; it would be good if someone could also throw in some hellfire...

Second, that all their books-- their prayer books, their Talmudic writings, also the entire Bible-- be taken from them, not leaving them one leaf, and that these be preserved for those who may be converted...

Third, that they be forbidden on pain of death to praise God, to give thanks, to pray, and to teach publicly among us and in our country...

Fourth, that they be forbidden to utter the name of God within our hearing. For we cannot with a good conscience listen to this or tolerate it...


Yeah sure, keep telling yourself that urging all Christians to hate Jews, calling their religion "a sickness", claiming they worship Satan, calling them "Christ-killers"(it disgusts me to even type that term...), calling them "stupid fools", saying that Jews are worthy of being killed, and advocating the burning of synagogues is "anti-Judaism", but not "anti-Jew".

Christianity has a history of Jew-hatred. It's no secret, it's a dirty part of our history but there's absolutely no sense in covering it up. As I've proven above, some of our faith's most respected leaders hated the Jews.

It's pretty obvious that the teaching of the church at one point condoned the hatred of Jews. Can you show me any saint or bishop from the early Christian period who condemned Jew-hatred? I'm not challenging you or anything, I would actually be very happy and relieved to see such a thing.

The ultimate question is, what role does the Bible have in this obvious anti-Jewish sentiment that was so prevalent in early Christianity?

It just discomforts me whenever I see in the Gospels: "the Jews" did this... "the Jews" did that...

Am I reading something into the text that isn't there? Was early Christian anti-Jewish sentiment primarily a cause of culture and ignorance, or was this sentiment present among the Gospel writers and promoted in their writings?


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« Reply #26 on: October 27, 2012, 09:36:21 AM »

I think the rise of individualism has perverted our understanding of these expressions. In most cultures in history, individual people were inextricably associated with the group they belonged to.

We today think the Fathers are painting with a broad brush, while frankly I don't think modern people are capable of understanding the nuance of the individual's relationship and identity within the whole.

As to phrases like "Christ killers" and "deicides", to me it's rather like "Theotokos". Did they kill Christ or not? Did they kill their own God, or not? This PC over-analysis is silly. I think the Fathers meant what they said, and our revulsion to it is our own cultural inability to understand it properly.

I certainly don't have the hubris to say we're more enlightened than they. Any misunderstanding is on our part, not theirs.

I suppose you killed innocent people with drone strikes, because that's what the American government did.

No, but it would be correct to say "America killed them" or "The Americans killed them." One can speak of nations without meaning every individual person in that nation who has ever lived. Have we really come to a place where this isn't obvious?
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« Reply #27 on: October 27, 2012, 09:59:20 AM »

I am. He died for my sins and for the love of us all. I could have said us or we, but i do not wish to judge anyone for anything.
Knowing that i am a sinful, shamefull, unworthy and impure/unclean servant.
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« Reply #28 on: October 27, 2012, 10:14:07 AM »

I am. He died for my sins and for the love of us all. I could have said us or we, but i do not wish to judge anyone for anything.
Knowing that i am a sinful, shamefull, unworthy and impure/unclean servant.
Same here.

How did these Fathers look upon Jews who converted to Christianity?
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« Reply #29 on: October 27, 2012, 12:09:52 PM »

I don't think it's wrong or misjudging the situation to say we all killed Christ, but what else could have happened the only other options were to create nothing or only irrational beings, or force Himself onto noetic beings..... But since there is something and God's not a rapist........  so we have it how it is
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« Reply #30 on: October 27, 2012, 12:13:58 PM »

How did these Fathers look upon Jews who converted to Christianity?

As Christians.
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« Reply #31 on: October 27, 2012, 12:14:51 PM »

How did these Fathers look upon Jews who converted to Christianity?

As Christians.
Did they look down upon them as second-class citizens?
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« Reply #32 on: October 27, 2012, 12:18:40 PM »

I think the rise of individualism has perverted our understanding of these expressions. In most cultures in history, individual people were inextricably associated with the group they belonged to.

We today think the Fathers are painting with a broad brush, while frankly I don't think modern people are capable of understanding the nuance of the individual's relationship and identity within the whole.

As to phrases like "Christ killers" and "deicides", to me it's rather like "Theotokos". Did they kill Christ or not? Did they kill their own God, or not? This PC over-analysis is silly. I think the Fathers meant what they said, and our revulsion to it is our own cultural inability to understand it properly.

I certainly don't have the hubris to say we're more enlightened than they. Any misunderstanding is on our part, not theirs.

I suppose you killed innocent people with drone strikes, because that's what the American government did.

No, but it would be correct to say "America killed them" or "The Americans killed them." One can speak of nations without meaning every individual person in that nation who has ever lived. Have we really come to a place where this isn't obvious?

Interesting point, as in 'The Nazis carried out the Holocaust' as opposed to 'Germans carried it out ' or 'The Germans carried it out' or 'The German Nation carried it out' or 'The German nation carried it out' or 'the German people carried it out' or 'German people carried it out.' As you can see, the six phrases using the term 'German' all carry a different connotation in written English.Those distinctions however, when heard in spoken English, can be blurred or subjectivized in the mind of the listener.  Careless phrasing can lead to unintended consequences.
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« Reply #33 on: October 27, 2012, 12:21:53 PM »

I don't think it's wrong or misjudging the situation to say we all killed Christ

Neither do I. In fact we are all responsible because we have all sinned.

But I don't think think it's right to use that reality to pooh-pooh the significant amount of Holy Tradition that speaks of the Jews being responsible for the physical act of killing Christ. Not only is that found in the Holy Week liturgical texts, but also in the Octoechos that we use every single Sunday (the Praises at Sunday Matins frequently ask rhetorical questions of the Jews for their actions).

The reason is not because we're anti-semites, but because of the significant reality that the Jews did in fact miss the Messiah's coming and handed their own God over to death. Think of the antiphons of Holy Friday: "I fed you manna in the desert, now you give me gall to drink... instead of loving Me, you nail me to the Cross."

The reality of Christ's forgiveness is not lost, and let's not persecute the Jews because of it, but let's not gloss over actual events either.
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« Reply #34 on: October 27, 2012, 12:28:55 PM »

Pilate is very much to blame.

Well not according to Christ, as stated above by Shanghaiski. (John 19:11)



He was executed by the emperor for failing to dispense justice by executing an innocent man--at least according to a few accounts.
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« Reply #35 on: October 27, 2012, 12:34:10 PM »

How did these Fathers look upon Jews who converted to Christianity?

As Christians.
Did they look down upon them as second-class citizens?

No.
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« Reply #36 on: October 27, 2012, 01:08:39 PM »

How did these Fathers look upon Jews who converted to Christianity?

As Christians.
Did they look down upon them as second-class citizens?

No.
Then doesn't that indicate that they were religiously anti-Jewish, as opposed to being ethnically anti-Semitic?
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« Reply #37 on: October 27, 2012, 02:51:27 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Neon..

You are conflating to many events and circumstances of history into one incoherent thought.  You are drawing upon obscure comments by Saint Ambrose and Saint John Chrysostom from the mid-5th century, then suddenly jumping a thousand plus years to Martin Luther who lived in an entirely different world, and had an entirely different relationship with Jewish people and Judaism?  You simply can't do that.  It doesn't work.  The relationship between Orthodox Christianity and Jewish people is mercilessly complicated by geography, politics, economics, and culture.  Why tensions occurred in Medieval Europe, or in 6th century North Africa, or in 15th century Ethiopia, or 19th century Russia are motivated and caused by many different and dynamic factors.  We can't use any one measure or analysis to understand these differing histories.  We can't say in a monolithic statement that, "The Church is anti-Semitic" because of these histories.  The Church is a living entity composed of many people.  You are picking and choosing, not looking at the entirety of the bigger picture.    It is not that simple as Church= bad, Jews=good


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« Reply #38 on: October 27, 2012, 02:56:03 PM »

How did these Fathers look upon Jews who converted to Christianity?

As Christians.
Did they look down upon them as second-class citizens?

No.
Then doesn't that indicate that they were religiously anti-Jewish, as opposed to being ethnically anti-Semitic?

It does.
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« Reply #39 on: October 27, 2012, 03:09:56 PM »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UAO9qdyRFdA


Calvinists believe that God(Father) needs to bear the major responsibiblity for Christ's death!!  ><><>< laugh laugh Grin Grin Grin laugh
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« Reply #40 on: October 27, 2012, 04:01:55 PM »

Wow.  Shocked
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« Reply #41 on: October 27, 2012, 05:01:59 PM »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UAO9qdyRFdA


Calvinists believe that God(Father) needs to bear the major responsibiblity for Christ's death!!  ><><>< laugh laugh Grin Grin Grin laugh
John Piper is one scary guy.
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« Reply #42 on: October 27, 2012, 06:09:44 PM »

Saying God the Father bears responsibility is about as unpatristic and un-Orthodox as saying we all bear responsibility for Christ's death. This topic has been discussed here before and no one, in neither this thread nor the other, has provided so much as a shread of patristic support for the idea that we all bear such a burden. I see where these individuals are coming from, but it seems more a product of wishful thinking and human reasoning than theology (understood in its proper empirical context). I am, however, open to correction if I have misread either the fathers or posters on this thread. We would do well to be wary of such philosophizing, for she is the mother of heresy.
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« Reply #43 on: October 27, 2012, 06:14:25 PM »

Saying God the Father bears responsibility is about as unpatristic and un-Orthodox as saying we all bear responsibility for Christ's death. This topic has been discussed here before and no one, in neither this thread nor the other, has provided so much as a shread of patristic support for the idea that we all bear such a burden. I see where these individuals are coming from, but it seems more a product of wishful thinking and human reasoning than theology (understood in its proper empirical context). I am, however, open to correction if I have misread either the fathers or posters on this thread. We would do well to wary of such philosophizing, for she is the mother of heresy.

I can agree with what you're saying. The whole "we're all so guilty" thing was pretty much how it was in Lutheranism, but I don't get that vibe at all in Orthodoxy. It may be there as a little undercurrent, but it's definitely not in the liturgical texts and the Fathers.
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« Reply #44 on: October 27, 2012, 06:45:46 PM »

Saying God the Father bears responsibility is about as unpatristic and un-Orthodox as saying we all bear responsibility for Christ's death. This topic has been discussed here before and no one, in neither this thread nor the other, has provided so much as a shread of patristic support for the idea that we all bear such a burden. I see where these individuals are coming from, but it seems more a product of wishful thinking and human reasoning than theology (understood in its proper empirical context). I am, however, open to correction if I have misread either the fathers or posters on this thread. We would do well to be wary of such philosophizing, for she is the mother of heresy.
Saying God the Father is responsible is ridiculous (and arguably blasphemous), I agree. However, Christ did suffer for the sake of *our* sins did he not? With that said, can't it be said we also share the blame, to some degree?
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