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Jetavan
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« on: October 26, 2012, 03:59:16 PM » |
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Cardinal Christoph Schönborn of Vienna, Austria, on possibly giving some Catholic church buildings to Orthodox groups: Let’s move to the restructuring of the archdiocese, which includes closing or clustering two-thirds of your parishes. How has that been received?
It’s in the beginning, and the reception has been mixed. On the one hand, I feel that many priests and lay people are glad that something is moving, because they know stagnation would not be a solution. It would only increase depression and discouragement. We all know that changes have to be made. Let me give you an example: the city of Vienna has 172 parishes, which is notably more than we had in 1945. The number of Catholics, however, has shrunk to less than half of what we had then. We have more parishes, churches, and buildings, but significantly fewer Catholics. We have to do something, and we’re trying to do it the right way. For instance, we’ve proposed to give churches to other Christian churches which are growing, such as the Copts, the Serbian Orthodox, and the Romanian Orthodox, who are all getting bigger. Instead of selling churches or simply closing them, we want them to stay open. I also don’t rule out that what I’ve seen happen in Berlin could happen in Vienna, which is that some churches the diocese had to close for financial reasons are taken over by the laity and become vibrant centers of spiritual life on another level. |
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If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
I'm not a witch.
Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.
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Papist
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« Reply #1 on: October 26, 2012, 04:09:13 PM » |
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I think giving them to our Orthodox brethren is a good solution. I would rather those Churches be continually used for the Holy Sacrifice.
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"The only-begotten Son of God, wanting us to be partakers of his divinity, assumed our human nature so that, having become man, he might make men gods." - St. Thomas Aquinas
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J Michael
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« Reply #2 on: October 26, 2012, 04:25:46 PM » |
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Cardinal Christoph Schönborn of Vienna, Austria, on possibly giving some Catholic church buildings to Orthodox groups: Let’s move to the restructuring of the archdiocese, which includes closing or clustering two-thirds of your parishes. How has that been received?
It’s in the beginning, and the reception has been mixed. On the one hand, I feel that many priests and lay people are glad that something is moving, because they know stagnation would not be a solution. It would only increase depression and discouragement. We all know that changes have to be made. Let me give you an example: the city of Vienna has 172 parishes, which is notably more than we had in 1945. The number of Catholics, however, has shrunk to less than half of what we had then. We have more parishes, churches, and buildings, but significantly fewer Catholics. We have to do something, and we’re trying to do it the right way. For instance, we’ve proposed to give churches to other Christian churches which are growing, such as the Copts, the Serbian Orthodox, and the Romanian Orthodox, who are all getting bigger. Instead of selling churches or simply closing them, we want them to stay open. I also don’t rule out that what I’ve seen happen in Berlin could happen in Vienna, which is that some churches the diocese had to close for financial reasons are taken over by the laity and become vibrant centers of spiritual life on another level. Sounds like a good idea to me. |
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"Right is right even if no one is doing it; wrong is wrong even if everyone is doing it."
— St. Augustine of Hippo
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soderquj
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« Reply #3 on: October 26, 2012, 04:45:43 PM » |
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Would only work if they are facing east!
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O God, cleanse me a sinner and have mercy on me.
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Schultz
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« Reply #4 on: October 26, 2012, 04:47:54 PM » |
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Cue Stashko in 3...2...
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"Hearing a nun's confession is like being stoned to death with popcorn." --Abp. Fulton Sheen
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choy
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« Reply #5 on: October 26, 2012, 06:37:15 PM » |
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Would only work if they are facing east!
So many Orthodox churches are not facing East. Especially those that were acquired from Protestants. |
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soderquj
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« Reply #6 on: October 27, 2012, 10:39:43 AM » |
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Would only work if they are facing east!
So many Orthodox churches are not facing East. Especially those that were acquired from Protestants. That is an exception more then a rule, I was told that the alter, and congregation is to face east during worship. But again I am sure some economia may be brought into play. |
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O God, cleanse me a sinner and have mercy on me.
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ThatOneGuy92
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« Reply #7 on: October 29, 2012, 04:30:03 PM » |
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It is possible that, after acquiring the building, the interior could be redesigned in order to face East. Or, if need be, there is always liturgical East.
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Sincerely your brother in Christ,
Tim
"I cannot persuade myself that without love to others, and without, as far as rests with me, peaceableness towards all, I can be called a worthy servant of Jesus Christ."
- St. Basil the Great
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choy
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« Reply #8 on: October 29, 2012, 04:48:23 PM » |
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It is possible that, after acquiring the building, the interior could be redesigned in order to face East. Or, if need be, there is always liturgical East.
Hard to do that. If the church is on a north-south orientation, if you move the altar to facing the East then you'll have one, really long iconostas. |
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ThatOneGuy92
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« Reply #9 on: October 29, 2012, 05:33:03 PM » |
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Hard to do that. If the church is on a north-south orientation, if you move the altar to facing the East then you'll have one, really long iconostas.
Hence liturgical East, wherein the the placement of the Altar is considered to be "East". Not the perfect situation, to be sure, but it has been (and is used) frequently. As for having a really long inconostasis: Don't think about it like that. It is just *MORE* iconostasis. If they can be built up the ceiling, why not from one side to the other?  |
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Sincerely your brother in Christ,
Tim
"I cannot persuade myself that without love to others, and without, as far as rests with me, peaceableness towards all, I can be called a worthy servant of Jesus Christ."
- St. Basil the Great
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choy
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« Reply #10 on: October 29, 2012, 05:46:41 PM » |
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Hard to do that. If the church is on a north-south orientation, if you move the altar to facing the East then you'll have one, really long iconostas.
Hence liturgical East, wherein the the placement of the Altar is considered to be "East". Not the perfect situation, to be sure, but it has been (and is used) frequently. As for having a really long inconostasis: Don't think about it like that. It is just *MORE* iconostasis. If they can be built up the ceiling, why not from one side to the other? I don't know how big some of these churches are, but I imagine it won't look too good. |
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ThatOneGuy92
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« Reply #11 on: October 31, 2012, 08:26:36 PM » |
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Hard to do that. If the church is on a north-south orientation, if you move the altar to facing the East then you'll have one, really long iconostas.
Hence liturgical East, wherein the the placement of the Altar is considered to be "East". Not the perfect situation, to be sure, but it has been (and is used) frequently. As for having a really long inconostasis: Don't think about it like that. It is just *MORE* iconostasis. If they can be built up the ceiling, why not from one side to the other? I don't know how big some of these churches are, but I imagine it won't look too good. True, true. |
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Sincerely your brother in Christ,
Tim
"I cannot persuade myself that without love to others, and without, as far as rests with me, peaceableness towards all, I can be called a worthy servant of Jesus Christ."
- St. Basil the Great
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podkarpatska
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« Reply #12 on: November 01, 2012, 01:58:24 PM » |
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God will find those churches, east, west, north, south, facing upside down...whatever.... In the US the early Eastern churches were built facing where the people could obtain land - often lousy land from the mine, mill or railroad companies so I won't lose any sleep about which way they face. That doesn't mean they are improper for worship.
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Schultz
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« Reply #13 on: November 01, 2012, 02:00:46 PM » |
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God will find those churches, east, west, north, south, facing upside down...whatever.... In the US the early Eastern churches were built facing where the people could obtain land - often lousy land from the mine, mill or railroad companies so I won't lose any sleep about which way they face. That doesn't mean they are improper for worship.
IS OUTRAGE! THIS WHY AMERICANS DO NOT DESERVE AUTOCEPHALOUS CHURCH! |
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"Hearing a nun's confession is like being stoned to death with popcorn." --Abp. Fulton Sheen
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podkarpatska
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« Reply #14 on: November 01, 2012, 02:43:45 PM » |
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God will find those churches, east, west, north, south, facing upside down...whatever.... In the US the early Eastern churches were built facing where the people could obtain land - often lousy land from the mine, mill or railroad companies so I won't lose any sleep about which way they face. That doesn't mean they are improper for worship.
IS OUTRAGE! THIS WHY AMERICANS DO NOT DESERVE AUTOCEPHALOUS CHURCH! He will find us regardless! |
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choy
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« Reply #15 on: November 01, 2012, 02:49:54 PM » |
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So what will the Orthodox do with the RC statues? Will the RC diocese take all the statues out?
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Michał Kalina
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despite living in Poland I am not a Pole
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« Reply #16 on: November 01, 2012, 02:52:14 PM » |
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So what will the Orthodox do with the RC statues? Will the RC diocese take all the statues out?
 Old Catholic chapel that used to be used by the mission I attend. |
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formerly known as mike
anti: -Russian, -Polish, -Ukrainian, -Serbian, -Slavic, -American, -Greek, -craddle, -convert, -traditional, -ecumenical, -hierarchical, -clerical, -OCA, -EP, -MP, -OO, -RC, -Protestant, -monarchist racist Communist philocatolic liberal chauvinistic Anglican cafeteria Pole
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ThatOneGuy92
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« Reply #17 on: November 02, 2012, 03:27:36 PM » |
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God will find those churches, east, west, north, south, facing upside down...whatever.... In the US the early Eastern churches were built facing where the people could obtain land - often lousy land from the mine, mill or railroad companies so I won't lose any sleep about which way they face. That doesn't mean they are improper for worship.
Exactly. |
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Sincerely your brother in Christ,
Tim
"I cannot persuade myself that without love to others, and without, as far as rests with me, peaceableness towards all, I can be called a worthy servant of Jesus Christ."
- St. Basil the Great
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Basil 320
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« Reply #18 on: November 02, 2012, 04:50:44 PM » |
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I think giving them to our Orthodox brethren is a good solution. I would rather those Churches be continually used for the Holy Sacrifice.
Very thoughtful, benevolent thoughts by the Most Reverend Cardinal. Bodes well for responsible ecumenical relations. |
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"...Strengthen the Orthodox Community..."
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celticfan1888
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« Reply #19 on: November 02, 2012, 05:12:51 PM » |
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Cue Stashko in 3...2...
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Forgive my sins.
According to the behaviour of some posters of this forum, I have learned from their example that apparently you are to judge everyone. After you judge them, mock them. Humility is apparently a joke. Because some people are just better people than others, and are more righteous.
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celticfan1888
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« Reply #20 on: November 02, 2012, 05:13:04 PM » |
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So what will the Orthodox do with the RC statues? Will the RC diocese take all the statues out?
Old Catholic chapel that used to be used by the mission I attend. No comment... |
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« Last Edit: November 02, 2012, 05:13:43 PM by celticfan1888 »
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Forgive my sins.
According to the behaviour of some posters of this forum, I have learned from their example that apparently you are to judge everyone. After you judge them, mock them. Humility is apparently a joke. Because some people are just better people than others, and are more righteous.
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podkarpatska
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« Reply #21 on: November 02, 2012, 05:33:05 PM » |
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Old Catholic chapel that used to be used by the mission I attend.
No comment... [/quote] I have a comment. Given the history of the treatment of the Orthodox people and even the Greek Catholic people living within the borders of the Polish state during the 20th century, it is remarkable and wonderful that in the 21st century, the Roman Catholic church in Poland made space available to the Orthodox faithful in which to worship without coercion or efforts to force their conversion or liquidation as had been the case not so many decades previously. So yes, I have a comment, "Kto Boh Velyj - How Great is our God, who creates miracles." |
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Michał Kalina
OC.net's trickster
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Jurisdiction: Diocese of Białystok and Gdańsk / Diocese of Warsaw and Bielsk Podlaski
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despite living in Poland I am not a Pole
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« Reply #22 on: November 02, 2012, 05:48:47 PM » |
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Given the history of the treatment of the Orthodox people and even the Greek Catholic people living within the borders of the Polish state during the 20th century, it is remarkable and wonderful that in the 21st century, the Roman Catholic church in Poland made space available to the Orthodox faithful in which to worship without coercion or efforts to force their conversion or liquidation as had been the case not so many decades previously.
So yes, I have a comment, "Kto Boh Velyj - How Great is our God, who creates miracles."
Old Catholic, not Roman Catholic. |
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formerly known as mike
anti: -Russian, -Polish, -Ukrainian, -Serbian, -Slavic, -American, -Greek, -craddle, -convert, -traditional, -ecumenical, -hierarchical, -clerical, -OCA, -EP, -MP, -OO, -RC, -Protestant, -monarchist racist Communist philocatolic liberal chauvinistic Anglican cafeteria Pole
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Peter J
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« Reply #23 on: November 03, 2012, 09:26:15 AM » |
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Given the history of the treatment of the Orthodox people and even the Greek Catholic people living within the borders of the Polish state during the 20th century, it is remarkable and wonderful that in the 21st century, the Roman Catholic church in Poland made space available to the Orthodox faithful in which to worship without coercion or efforts to force their conversion or liquidation as had been the case not so many decades previously.
So yes, I have a comment, "Kto Boh Velyj - How Great is our God, who creates miracles."
Old Catholic, not Roman Catholic. Yes, regarding the example you related ... However, would it be very surprising or remarkable if RCs in Poland did likewise? I wouldn't find it very surprising, but perhaps you'll think I'm being overly optimistic. |
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- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster) And, thanks, too, to Peter - now I know that it's pretentious to think that only God can see the truth - here I was thinking that He might be better placed to do that than we mortals - now, I know better.
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Michał Kalina
OC.net's trickster
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Faith: Christian (as of 11/21/90 - what's with that new trend?)
Jurisdiction: Diocese of Białystok and Gdańsk / Diocese of Warsaw and Bielsk Podlaski
Posts: 20,259
despite living in Poland I am not a Pole
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« Reply #24 on: November 03, 2012, 11:34:29 AM » |
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Given the history of the treatment of the Orthodox people and even the Greek Catholic people living within the borders of the Polish state during the 20th century, it is remarkable and wonderful that in the 21st century, the Roman Catholic church in Poland made space available to the Orthodox faithful in which to worship without coercion or efforts to force their conversion or liquidation as had been the case not so many decades previously.
So yes, I have a comment, "Kto Boh Velyj - How Great is our God, who creates miracles."
Old Catholic, not Roman Catholic. Yes, regarding the example you related ... However, would it be very surprising or remarkable if RCs in Poland did likewise? I wouldn't find it very surprising, but perhaps you'll think I'm being overly optimistic. There are a few cases (Lutherans also sometimes share their churches). |
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« Last Edit: November 03, 2012, 11:35:05 AM by Michał Kalina »
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formerly known as mike
anti: -Russian, -Polish, -Ukrainian, -Serbian, -Slavic, -American, -Greek, -craddle, -convert, -traditional, -ecumenical, -hierarchical, -clerical, -OCA, -EP, -MP, -OO, -RC, -Protestant, -monarchist racist Communist philocatolic liberal chauvinistic Anglican cafeteria Pole
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Shiranui117
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PUDDI PUDDI!
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« Reply #25 on: November 06, 2012, 07:09:11 PM » |
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God will find those churches, east, west, north, south, facing upside down...whatever.... In the US the early Eastern churches were built facing where the people could obtain land - often lousy land from the mine, mill or railroad companies so I won't lose any sleep about which way they face. That doesn't mean they are improper for worship.
IS OUTRAGE! THIS WHY AMERICANS DO NOT DESERVE AUTOCEPHALOUS CHURCH! He will find us regardless! Oh, He'll find us, alright. He'll find us AND PUNISH US FOR OUR BLASPHEMY D:< |
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Frederic
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St Frederick of Utrecht
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« Reply #26 on: November 15, 2012, 11:15:12 PM » |
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When one knows how Cardinal Schönborn celebrates masses, I think it's a good idea to give churches to the Orthodox.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=67Lom28KSlg#! |
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«One cannot understand the least thing about modern civilization if one does not first realize that it is a universal conspiracy to destroy the inner life.» (George Bernanos)
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