Author Topic: Thoughts on non-Orthodox Martyrs?  (Read 1086 times)

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Offline Android_Rewster

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Thoughts on non-Orthodox Martyrs?
« on: January 04, 2013, 07:38:52 PM »
 What are your thoughts on people such as Protestants and Roman Catholics who die in the name of their faith? I don't mean to cause any emotional distress or anything, I'm just curious.

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Re: Thoughts on non-Orthodox Martyrs?
« Reply #1 on: January 04, 2013, 07:52:26 PM »
If I'm not mistaken, Arius was a martyr for what HE believed...

Deaths are always tragic (especially in the context of what usually qualifies one to be a martyr) but just because one is a martyr for what he believes does not give him a free ticket to Heaven.
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Re: Thoughts on non-Orthodox Martyrs?
« Reply #2 on: January 04, 2013, 08:00:44 PM »
I always try to remind myself that many religions have martyrs, not just Christianity. I think it says a lot about someone as a person, and possibly (but not necessarily) something about the religion they belong to. Having said that, St. John Chrysostom (Homily 11 on Ephesians) says that not even the blood of martyrdom can cover the sin of division/schism. That's a sobering thought.
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Re: Thoughts on non-Orthodox Martyrs?
« Reply #3 on: January 04, 2013, 08:01:53 PM »
I always try to remind myself that many religions have martyrs, not just Christianity. I think it says a lot about someone as a person, and possibly (but not necessarily) something about the religion they belong to. Having said that, St. John Chrysostom (Homily 11 on Ephesians) says that not even the blood of martyrdom can cover the sin of division/schism. That's a sobering thought.

Did St. John hate everybody, or something? Because he doesn't seem to have had a nice word to say about hardly anyone. Yikes.  :'(
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Offline genesisone

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Re: Thoughts on non-Orthodox Martyrs?
« Reply #4 on: January 04, 2013, 08:12:30 PM »
There are Protestants and Roman Catholics who have died for their faith whom I admire - just as there are some who live for their faith whom I admire. They were striving to serve Christ to the extent of their understanding. We could also ask what EOs think of OOs (and vice versa) who have been martyred for their faith.

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Re: Thoughts on non-Orthodox Martyrs?
« Reply #5 on: January 05, 2013, 01:53:20 AM »
just because one is a martyr for what he believes does not give him a free ticket to Heaven.
That goes for Eastern Orthodox who are killed too.
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Re: Thoughts on non-Orthodox Martyrs?
« Reply #6 on: January 05, 2013, 01:58:32 AM »
Unfortunate that they wasted their lives for heresy, but still admirable that they died for something they thought was true.
...Or it's just possible he's a mouthy young man on an internet forum.
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Re: Thoughts on non-Orthodox Martyrs?
« Reply #7 on: January 05, 2013, 02:07:05 AM »
Unfortunate that they wasted their lives for heresy
Dude.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2013, 02:07:17 AM by NicholasMyra »
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Re: Thoughts on non-Orthodox Martyrs?
« Reply #8 on: January 05, 2013, 06:35:30 AM »
Personally I think that non-Orthodox Christians, who were not aware of their heresies, but died for Christ, truly are martyrs. It's more complicated with non-Orthodox Christians, who not necessarily were fighting with Orthodoxy, but they knew there is the Orthodox Church and died because of Christ.

I don't know how to explain incorruptible body of Roman Catholic martyr Andrew Bobola, who was killed by Cossacks. Maybe it's just because he was killed for Christ, and in this case it doesn't matter that the murders were Orthodox Christians, because they shouldn't have killed him?... Or maybe that's a work of demonic forces?... That's the most interesting case for me, as in Poalnd on the opposite, Orthodox site is st. martyr Athanasius of Brest
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Re: Thoughts on non-Orthodox Martyrs?
« Reply #9 on: January 06, 2013, 12:07:26 AM »
Matt 16:25 "For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it."

At Columbine High School, one of the students killed was martyred for her faith.    If you want to know my thoughts, I listen to exactly what God said.   She lost her life for his sake.  I believe she was granted salvation.

You asked "in the name of their faith", their faith would not be "Protestant or Roman Catholic", they would call themselves "Christians".   They believe Jesus Christ is the son of God, and is God.    I know there is some walls & red tape (some thicker than others) between the different denominations of Christianity...
I just don't believe that many Christians (Eastern Orthodox or otherwise) could say that a girl confessing Christ at gunpoint, then shot for her faith, meets the second death.

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Re: Thoughts on non-Orthodox Martyrs?
« Reply #10 on: January 06, 2013, 12:29:52 AM »
I always try to remind myself that many religions have martyrs, not just Christianity. I think it says a lot about someone as a person, and possibly (but not necessarily) something about the religion they belong to. Having said that, St. John Chrysostom (Homily 11 on Ephesians) says that not even the blood of martyrdom can cover the sin of division/schism. That's a sobering thought.

Did St. John hate everybody, or something? Because he doesn't seem to have had a nice word to say about hardly anyone. Yikes.  :'(

And the people of Constantinople loved him so much that they willingly listened to his homilies for hours on end and rioted when the empress, who did not love St. John because of his tendency to point to her when speaking against excess, exiled him.
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Re: Thoughts on non-Orthodox Martyrs?
« Reply #11 on: January 06, 2013, 12:33:46 AM »
Unfortunate that they wasted their lives for heresy
Dude.

Google was no help trying to come up with who said, "The martyrdom of heretics is suicide and the virginity of heretics is fornication," but St. Athanasius the Great said, "The baptism of heretics is a baptism into athesim."

The Fathers really did not like heresy.

That said, as Blessed Metropolitan Philaret points out if I may be so bold, one must needs draw a distinction between heretic and heterodox. The former willfully perverts the truth to conform to his own notions while the latter is faithful to what he knows, what he has been taught.
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Re: Thoughts on non-Orthodox Martyrs?
« Reply #12 on: January 08, 2013, 01:34:22 PM »
just because one is a martyr for what he believes does not give him a free ticket to Heaven.
That goes for Eastern Orthodox who are killed too.

Actually you are wrong. Read the homilies of St. John Chrysostom.
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Re: Thoughts on non-Orthodox Martyrs?
« Reply #13 on: January 08, 2013, 01:39:10 PM »
I always try to remind myself that many religions have martyrs, not just Christianity. I think it says a lot about someone as a person, and possibly (but not necessarily) something about the religion they belong to. Having said that, St. John Chrysostom (Homily 11 on Ephesians) says that not even the blood of martyrdom can cover the sin of division/schism. That's a sobering thought.

Did St. John hate everybody, or something? Because he doesn't seem to have had a nice word to say about hardly anyone. Yikes.  :'(

No, he is not just a hateful man. He is a holy father and a Great Hierarch. He also loves people very much, if you can believe, one just has to read his homilies on the saints. He hated heresy and sin, as we all should.
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Re: Thoughts on non-Orthodox Martyrs?
« Reply #14 on: January 08, 2013, 02:36:21 PM »
Fortunately it's God who judges and not St. John (or anyone else)!
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Re: Thoughts on non-Orthodox Martyrs?
« Reply #15 on: January 08, 2013, 02:46:22 PM »
I saw a documentary on thomas becket the other day and I gotta say I like him.
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Re: Thoughts on non-Orthodox Martyrs?
« Reply #16 on: January 08, 2013, 06:11:08 PM »
just because one is a martyr for what he believes does not give him a free ticket to Heaven.
That goes for Eastern Orthodox who are killed too.

Actually you are wrong. Read the homilies of St. John Chrysostom.

You think that any EO killed for being EO gets a free ticket? What if they sought death for vanity's sake?
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Re: Thoughts on non-Orthodox Martyrs?
« Reply #17 on: January 08, 2013, 06:28:58 PM »
I saw a documentary on thomas becket the other day and I gotta say I like him.

I do too.
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Re: Thoughts on non-Orthodox Martyrs?
« Reply #18 on: January 08, 2013, 06:30:08 PM »
I always try to remind myself that many religions have martyrs, not just Christianity. I think it says a lot about someone as a person, and possibly (but not necessarily) something about the religion they belong to. Having said that, St. John Chrysostom (Homily 11 on Ephesians) says that not even the blood of martyrdom can cover the sin of division/schism. That's a sobering thought.

Did St. John hate everybody, or something? Because he doesn't seem to have had a nice word to say about hardly anyone. Yikes.  :'(

No, he is not just a hateful man. He is a holy father and a Great Hierarch. He also loves people very much, if you can believe, one just has to read his homilies on the saints. He hated heresy and sin, as we all should.

I actually have his sermon collections. I don't know if I want to spend my time ginning up 'hatred' against very much, thank you; I was taught that was a sin. Then again, I was raised by heretics, so we're evil. Forget it.
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Re: Thoughts on non-Orthodox Martyrs?
« Reply #19 on: January 08, 2013, 06:46:04 PM »
I don't think it's quite fair to say St. John C. was "hateful", though. He seems to have simply been responding to the problems of his own time and place, which are not necessarily the problems of our time and place.
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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Thoughts on non-Orthodox Martyrs?
« Reply #20 on: January 08, 2013, 07:03:12 PM »
The Orthodox faith has never put God in an "absolute box".  Consider tribal people who have never known God (or helpless children) it has always been considered that "God is the judge and understanding".

I do consider the same attitude towards the Martyrs of the non-Orthodox.   As the example above of the girl in Columbine martyred for her faith in Jesus Christ, I doubt you'd find any Orthodox clergy who would say she is hell bound for not being Orthodox.

She lost her life for her faith in Jesus Christ.   

I wonder if I could do the same as her, if that moment came so suddenly. 
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Re: Thoughts on non-Orthodox Martyrs?
« Reply #21 on: January 08, 2013, 08:14:45 PM »
I actually have his sermon collections. I don't know if I want to spend my time ginning up 'hatred' against very much, thank you; I was taught that was a sin.
Biro,

St. John and St. Basil were schooled in Aristotelian rhetoric. Overstating your case and tactical polemics were simply part of that style.

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Offline choy

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Re: Thoughts on non-Orthodox Martyrs?
« Reply #22 on: January 08, 2013, 08:48:23 PM »
You know what I love about Orthodoxy?  And I know not everyone does this, but I've come across a number of priests who are not afraid to quote Roman Catholic saints.  The truth is the truth wherever it may be found.  You will not catch a Roman Catholic priest quoting a post-schism Orthodox saint.

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Re: Thoughts on non-Orthodox Martyrs?
« Reply #23 on: January 08, 2013, 08:54:51 PM »
What are your thoughts on people such as Protestants and Roman Catholics who die in the name of their faith? I don't mean to cause any emotional distress or anything, I'm just curious.

There's no reason to become a "glorified martyr" after witnessing so many political movements and demonstrations in the world news.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2013, 08:57:02 PM by WPM »

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Re: Thoughts on non-Orthodox Martyrs?
« Reply #24 on: January 08, 2013, 08:57:29 PM »
You know what I love about Orthodoxy?  And I know not everyone does this, but I've come across a number of priests who are not afraid to quote Roman Catholic saints.  The truth is the truth wherever it may be found.  You will not catch a Roman Catholic priest quoting a post-schism Orthodox saint.

You were doing so well with the first part, then you got to the last sentence and lost me.  :(

I've heard lots of Eastern Catholic priests quoting from post-schism Orthodox saints, and as we're always reminded, Eastern Catholics are Roman Catholics.  ::)
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Re: Thoughts on non-Orthodox Martyrs?
« Reply #25 on: January 08, 2013, 09:12:12 PM »
You know what I love about Orthodoxy?  And I know not everyone does this, but I've come across a number of priests who are not afraid to quote Roman Catholic saints.  The truth is the truth wherever it may be found.  You will not catch a Roman Catholic priest quoting a post-schism Orthodox saint.

I haven't heard that at all. I've met Orthodox priests who openly ridiculed the Roman Catholics and their saints. And their Eucharist. In Bible class.
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Offline choy

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Re: Thoughts on non-Orthodox Martyrs?
« Reply #26 on: January 08, 2013, 09:24:36 PM »
You know what I love about Orthodoxy?  And I know not everyone does this, but I've come across a number of priests who are not afraid to quote Roman Catholic saints.  The truth is the truth wherever it may be found.  You will not catch a Roman Catholic priest quoting a post-schism Orthodox saint.

You were doing so well with the first part, then you got to the last sentence and lost me.  :(

I've heard lots of Eastern Catholic priests quoting from post-schism Orthodox saints, and as we're always reminded, Eastern Catholics are Roman Catholics.  ::)

LOL
Well, depends on the Eastern Catholic priest too.  If they are the "Orthodox in communion with Rome" types, they will almost quote Orthodox saints and theologians almost exclusively.  But I am talking about Latin Rite priests.

Offline choy

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Re: Thoughts on non-Orthodox Martyrs?
« Reply #27 on: January 08, 2013, 09:25:20 PM »
You know what I love about Orthodoxy?  And I know not everyone does this, but I've come across a number of priests who are not afraid to quote Roman Catholic saints.  The truth is the truth wherever it may be found.  You will not catch a Roman Catholic priest quoting a post-schism Orthodox saint.

I haven't heard that at all. I've met Orthodox priests who openly ridiculed the Roman Catholics and their saints. And their Eucharist. In Bible class.

Well, one priest I know who is very critical of the Roman Catholic Church, yet quoted St. Francis of Assisi and St. Thomas Moore in the same sermon.

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Re: Thoughts on non-Orthodox Martyrs?
« Reply #28 on: January 08, 2013, 09:38:58 PM »
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Re: Thoughts on non-Orthodox Martyrs?
« Reply #29 on: January 08, 2013, 09:48:10 PM »
In Bible class.
In what?

During a Bible study class. I was in tears when I left. On my way out, one nice elderly woman said goodbye to me - one of the few reasons I didn't quit then.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2013, 09:49:24 PM by biro »
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Offline Ebor

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Re: Thoughts on non-Orthodox Martyrs?
« Reply #30 on: January 08, 2013, 09:57:10 PM »
I saw a documentary on thomas becket the other day and I gotta say I like him.

Do you recall the name of the documentary?

What in particular did you like about him please?
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Re: Thoughts on non-Orthodox Martyrs?
« Reply #31 on: January 08, 2013, 09:58:03 PM »
You know what I love about Orthodoxy?  And I know not everyone does this, but I've come across a number of priests who are not afraid to quote Roman Catholic saints.  The truth is the truth wherever it may be found.  You will not catch a Roman Catholic priest quoting a post-schism Orthodox saint.

I haven't heard that at all. I've met Orthodox priests who openly ridiculed the Roman Catholics and their saints. And their Eucharist. In Bible class.

Well, one priest I know who is very critical of the Roman Catholic Church, yet quoted St. Francis of Assisi and St. Thomas Moore in the same sermon.

Interesting.  Do you recall what he said from Thomas More?
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Offline choy

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Re: Thoughts on non-Orthodox Martyrs?
« Reply #32 on: January 08, 2013, 10:06:03 PM »
You know what I love about Orthodoxy?  And I know not everyone does this, but I've come across a number of priests who are not afraid to quote Roman Catholic saints.  The truth is the truth wherever it may be found.  You will not catch a Roman Catholic priest quoting a post-schism Orthodox saint.

I haven't heard that at all. I've met Orthodox priests who openly ridiculed the Roman Catholics and their saints. And their Eucharist. In Bible class.

Well, one priest I know who is very critical of the Roman Catholic Church, yet quoted St. Francis of Assisi and St. Thomas Moore in the same sermon.

I forgot, sorry.  It sort of stood out to me the fact that he quoted 2 RC saints during a sermon and that is what I remember most.

Interesting.  Do you recall what he said from Thomas More?

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Re: Thoughts on non-Orthodox Martyrs?
« Reply #33 on: January 08, 2013, 10:11:15 PM »
You know what I love about Orthodoxy?  And I know not everyone does this, but I've come across a number of priests who are not afraid to quote Roman Catholic saints.  The truth is the truth wherever it may be found.  You will not catch a Roman Catholic priest quoting a post-schism Orthodox saint.

Blessed John Paul II did.
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Offline Ebor

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Re: Thoughts on non-Orthodox Martyrs?
« Reply #34 on: January 08, 2013, 10:12:56 PM »
Thanks anyway, Choy.  I was just curious because from what I know of More's works (Utopia, a History of King Richard III which is a/the major source for the negative view on man (well he was writing it in the reign of the line that bested Richard at Bosworth) letters, poetry and polemics against Martin Luther, Tyndale and other subjects) I wondered what might have been quoted.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2013, 10:13:27 PM by Ebor »
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Offline NicholasMyra

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Re: Thoughts on non-Orthodox Martyrs?
« Reply #35 on: January 08, 2013, 10:54:34 PM »
During a Bible study class. I was in tears when I left. On my way out, one nice elderly woman said goodbye to me - one of the few reasons I didn't quit then.
While it's difficult for me to understand, not coming from another Christian background, I'm sorry you had to experience that.

Matter of fact, it's difficult for me to envision what would go on at priest-led bible class.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2013, 10:54:45 PM by NicholasMyra »
Quote from: Orthonorm
if Christ does and says x. And someone else does and says not x and you are ever in doubt, follow Christ.

Πλούσιοι επτώχευσαν και επείνασαν
Οιδε εκζητούντες τον Κύριον
Ουκ ελαττωθήσονται παντός αγαθού

Offline Ashman618

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Re: Thoughts on non-Orthodox Martyrs?
« Reply #36 on: January 08, 2013, 11:03:31 PM »
You know what I love about Orthodoxy?  And I know not everyone does this, but I've come across a number of priests who are not afraid to quote Roman Catholic saints.  The truth is the truth wherever it may be found.  You will not catch a Roman Catholic priest quoting a post-schism Orthodox saint.

You were doing so well with the first part, then you got to the last sentence and lost me.  :(

I've heard lots of Eastern Catholic priests quoting from post-schism Orthodox saints, and as we're always reminded, Eastern Catholics are Roman Catholics.  ::)

LOL
Well, depends on the Eastern Catholic priest too.  If they are the "Orthodox in communion with Rome" types, they will almost quote Orthodox saints and theologians almost exclusively.  But I am talking about Latin Rite priests.

My priest quotes Thomas aquinas and Ignatius Loyola, but then again, he's a former Latin rite left after Vatican 2 guy.

Offline Tikhon.of.Colorado

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Re: Thoughts on non-Orthodox Martyrs?
« Reply #37 on: January 09, 2013, 02:44:24 AM »
Unfortunate that they wasted their lives for heresy, but still admirable that they died for something they thought was true.
::)

Offline biro

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Re: Thoughts on non-Orthodox Martyrs?
« Reply #38 on: January 09, 2013, 02:48:49 AM »
I don't think it's quite fair to say St. John C. was "hateful", though. He seems to have simply been responding to the problems of his own time and place, which are not necessarily the problems of our time and place.

I'm sure that's true.
He will come again with glory to judge the living and the dead. His kingdom will have no end.

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Offline biro

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Re: Thoughts on non-Orthodox Martyrs?
« Reply #39 on: January 09, 2013, 02:49:56 AM »
I actually have his sermon collections. I don't know if I want to spend my time ginning up 'hatred' against very much, thank you; I was taught that was a sin.
Biro,

St. John and St. Basil were schooled in Aristotelian rhetoric. Overstating your case and tactical polemics were simply part of that style.



Well, that makes sense, then.
He will come again with glory to judge the living and the dead. His kingdom will have no end.

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And if I seem a little strange, well, that's because I am

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Offline JamesR

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Re: Thoughts on non-Orthodox Martyrs?
« Reply #40 on: January 09, 2013, 03:55:59 AM »
I really love St. John Chrysostom. At first I didn't really get what was so special about him until I really started reading him more and I have to say, I really appreciate him. He is so blunt and to the point, I always feel like he is teaching me a lesson 1 on 1 due to his aggressive style. What people oftentimes forget is that while he may appear aggressive in reading, you have to keep in mind that most of what we read by him was actually spoken to a large congregation via sermon--and when doing so, I imagine that you have to sometimes take a more aggressive approach to really get through to the people. There is no hiding the fact though that he was an anti-Semite...but then again, everyone has their sins.
...Or it's just possible he's a mouthy young man on an internet forum.
In the infinite wisdom of God, James can be all three.

Offline choy

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Re: Thoughts on non-Orthodox Martyrs?
« Reply #41 on: January 09, 2013, 04:35:41 AM »
There is no hiding the fact though that he was an anti-Semite...but then again, everyone has their sins.

I don't think that is a fair assessment.  Remember, he lived in a different time and place.  Jewish persecution of Christians was pretty much a fresh wound by then.