OrthodoxChristianity.net
July 24, 2014, 04:07:15 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: YHWH  (Read 590 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
pmpn8rGPT
Grammar Nazi in three languages.
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: Eastern Orthodox (old calendarist)
Posts: 1,038


Proof that Russia won the Space Race.


« on: October 24, 2012, 08:22:29 PM »

WARNING: this is a protestant article, but he makes some great points

http://removinggodsname.xanga.com/525363380/item/

If God instructed people to put His name in The Holy Scriptures as much as 6,823 times than what right do we have to change the most powerful word (YHWH) into a man-made name (LORD)?

what does OC.net think and what is the Orthodox view of this topic
Logged

"Tomorrow, I shall no longer be here."
-Nostradamus's last words.
Jetavan
Most Humble Servant of Pan-Vespuccian and Holocenic Hominids
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Christic
Jurisdiction: Dixie
Posts: 6,280


Barlaam and Josaphat


WWW
« Reply #1 on: October 24, 2012, 08:25:04 PM »

WARNING: this is a protestant article, but he makes some great points

http://removinggodsname.xanga.com/525363380/item/

If God instructed people to put His name in The Holy Scriptures as much as 6,823 times than what right do we have to change the most powerful word (YHWH) into a man-made name (LORD)?

what does OC.net think and what is the Orthodox view of this topic
How do you know that YHWH is more powerful than LORD?
Logged

If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
सर्वभूतहित
Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.
pmpn8rGPT
Grammar Nazi in three languages.
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: Eastern Orthodox (old calendarist)
Posts: 1,038


Proof that Russia won the Space Race.


« Reply #2 on: October 24, 2012, 08:39:14 PM »

WARNING: this is a protestant article, but he makes some great points

http://removinggodsname.xanga.com/525363380/item/

If God instructed people to put His name in The Holy Scriptures as much as 6,823 times than what right do we have to change the most powerful word (YHWH) into a man-made name (LORD)?

what does OC.net think and what is the Orthodox view of this topic
How do you know that YHWH is more powerful than LORD?
because YHWH revealed Himself to Moses as YHWH and revealed it to us up to 6,823 times.  LORD is a man-made title
Logged

"Tomorrow, I shall no longer be here."
-Nostradamus's last words.
HabteSelassie
Ises and I-ity
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church
Posts: 3,332



« Reply #3 on: October 24, 2012, 08:44:28 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

WARNING: this is a protestant article, but he makes some great points

http://removinggodsname.xanga.com/525363380/item/

If God instructed people to put His name in The Holy Scriptures as much as 6,823 times than what right do we have to change the most powerful word (YHWH) into a man-made name (LORD)?

what does OC.net think and what is the Orthodox view of this topic
How do you know that YHWH is more powerful than LORD?
because YHWH revealed Himself to Moses as YHWH and revealed it to us up to 6,823 times.  LORD is a man-made title

How exactly do you know this?

stay blessed,
habte selassie
Logged

"Yet stand aloof from stupid questionings and geneologies and strifes and fightings about law, for they are without benefit and vain." Titus 3:10
Jetavan
Most Humble Servant of Pan-Vespuccian and Holocenic Hominids
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Christic
Jurisdiction: Dixie
Posts: 6,280


Barlaam and Josaphat


WWW
« Reply #4 on: October 24, 2012, 08:46:20 PM »

WARNING: this is a protestant article, but he makes some great points

http://removinggodsname.xanga.com/525363380/item/

If God instructed people to put His name in The Holy Scriptures as much as 6,823 times than what right do we have to change the most powerful word (YHWH) into a man-made name (LORD)?

what does OC.net think and what is the Orthodox view of this topic
How do you know that YHWH is more powerful than LORD?
because YHWH revealed Himself to Moses as YHWH and revealed it to us up to 6,823 times.  LORD is a man-made title
So the word "YHWH" existed before creation?
Logged

If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
सर्वभूतहित
Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.
pmpn8rGPT
Grammar Nazi in three languages.
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: Eastern Orthodox (old calendarist)
Posts: 1,038


Proof that Russia won the Space Race.


« Reply #5 on: October 24, 2012, 09:01:06 PM »

WARNING: this is a protestant article, but he makes some great points

http://removinggodsname.xanga.com/525363380/item/

If God instructed people to put His name in The Holy Scriptures as much as 6,823 times than what right do we have to change the most powerful word (YHWH) into a man-made name (LORD)?

what does OC.net think and what is the Orthodox view of this topic
How do you know that YHWH is more powerful than LORD?
because YHWH revealed Himself to Moses as YHWH and revealed it to us up to 6,823 times.  LORD is a man-made title
So the word "YHWH" existed before creation?
Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

WARNING: this is a protestant article, but he makes some great points

http://removinggodsname.xanga.com/525363380/item/

If God instructed people to put His name in The Holy Scriptures as much as 6,823 times than what right do we have to change the most powerful word (YHWH) into a man-made name (LORD)?

what does OC.net think and what is the Orthodox view of this topic
How do you know that YHWH is more powerful than LORD?
because YHWH revealed Himself to Moses as YHWH and revealed it to us up to 6,823 times.  LORD is a man-made title

How exactly do you know this?

stay blessed,
habte selassie
3 And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name YHWH was I not known to them.

4 And I have also established my covenant with them, to give them the land of Canaan, the land of their pilgrimage, wherein they were strangers.

5 And I have also heard the groaning of the children of Israel, whom the Egyptians keep in bondage; and I have remembered my covenant.

6 Wherefore say unto the children of Israel, I am YHWH, and I will bring you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians, and I will rid you out of their bondage, and I will redeem you with a stretched out arm, and with great judgments:
-Exodus 6:3-6
« Last Edit: October 24, 2012, 09:03:13 PM by pmpn8rGPT » Logged

"Tomorrow, I shall no longer be here."
-Nostradamus's last words.
Gamliel
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Greek Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Metropolis of San Francisco
Posts: 1,995



« Reply #6 on: October 24, 2012, 09:04:46 PM »

We have the consonants, but we do not know how to pronounce it, so we just say LORD.  The best we can do as far as pronunciation goes, is to make an educated guess.  Nobody knows for sure how to pronounce it.  Not even the scholars.  Might as well just say LORD and not worry about it.
Logged
akimori makoto
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Non-heretical Christian
Jurisdiction: Fully-sik-hektic archdiocese of Australia, bro
Posts: 3,126

No-one bound by fleshly pleasures is worthy ...


« Reply #7 on: October 24, 2012, 09:07:55 PM »

We have the consonants, but we do not know how to pronounce it, so we just say LORD.  The best we can do as far as pronunciation goes, is to make an educated guess.  Nobody knows for sure how to pronounce it.  Not even the scholars.  Might as well just say LORD and not worry about it.

Not to mention that our practice of not pronouncing the divine name is also shared with the Jews, and has been for thousands of years.
Logged

The Episcopallian road is easy and wide, for many go through it to find destruction. lol sorry channeling Isa.
Aindriú
Faster! Funnier!
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Cynical
Jurisdiction: Vestibule of Hell
Posts: 3,918



WWW
« Reply #8 on: October 24, 2012, 09:11:34 PM »

Logged


I'm going to need this.
HabteSelassie
Ises and I-ity
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church
Posts: 3,332



« Reply #9 on: October 24, 2012, 09:18:21 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!


3 And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name YHWH was I not known to them.

4 And I have also established my covenant with them, to give them the land of Canaan, the land of their pilgrimage, wherein they were strangers.

5 And I have also heard the groaning of the children of Israel, whom the Egyptians keep in bondage; and I have remembered my covenant.

6 Wherefore say unto the children of Israel, I am YHWH, and I will bring you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians, and I will rid you out of their bondage, and I will redeem you with a stretched out arm, and with great judgments:
-Exodus 6:3-6

Yes, I'm familiar with the revelation at the Burning Bush but you're quoting a particular translation, my question to you, is how exactly do you know that this revelation was YHWH? Further, how exactly do you know that this version of the Name of God occurs several thousand times across the Scriptures?

stay blessed,
habte selassie
Logged

"Yet stand aloof from stupid questionings and geneologies and strifes and fightings about law, for they are without benefit and vain." Titus 3:10
NicholasMyra
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian/Greek
Posts: 5,760


Avowed denominationalist


« Reply #10 on: October 24, 2012, 10:40:02 PM »

If God instructed people to put His name in The Holy Scriptures as much as 6,823 times than what right do we have to change the most powerful word (YHWH) into a man-made name (LORD)?
We don't change it. What we do is we say "adonai" (Kyrios, Lord) where the name YHWH occurs. This is done out of reverence for the name, that it is considered too Holy for regular use.

Besides, God's Word received the name above every name, and that name, Jesus, is the theanthropic re-presentation of YHWH. That is the name we often use.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2012, 10:40:18 PM by NicholasMyra » Logged

Quote from: Orthonorm
if Christ does and says x. And someone else does and says not x and you are ever in doubt, follow Christ.

"Simply put, if you’re not willing to take what is dearest to you, whether plans or people, and kiss it goodbye, you can’t be my disciple."
yeshuaisiam
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox, Anabaptist, Other Early Christianity kind of jumbled together
Posts: 4,100


A pulling horse cannot kick.


« Reply #11 on: October 24, 2012, 10:50:31 PM »

When Moses asked for his name, he replied "I AM that I AM".

This is an interesting article, and a good question.  One that I have as well.
Logged

I learned how to be more frugal and save money at http://www.livingpress.com
HabteSelassie
Ises and I-ity
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church
Posts: 3,332



« Reply #12 on: October 24, 2012, 11:10:48 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

When Moses asked for his name, he replied "I AM that I AM".

This is an interesting article, and a good question.  One that I have as well.

While the Fathers have preserved the sanctity of the Name of God and followed the original Biblical copyists tradition of inserting the various terms for "Lord" in the translations of original manuscripts, we should ask this question.  What is sacred about the Name? The etymology? The pronunciation in the original tongue? Which original tongue is that, our copies of the Hebrew are relatively modern compared to our Greek manuscripts.  The Fathers have preserved aspects of the Name itself (i.e. translated rather than transliterated as you have done) so that when Christ in the Gospels says, ἐγώ εἰμι it is a Greek translation of the Sacred Name "I Am" as you have done. So is it YWHW (a potential for the Hebrew of these, though contradicting, in the medieval Hebrew manuscripts Eyah Asher Eyah is ascribed to be the Sacred Name with Eyah [To Be or I Am in Hebrew] ) transliterated from the Hebrew itself which is sacred, or something older? Is the Greek version more reliable considering its age and authenticity in comparison to the Hebrew manuscripts?  Where does YWHW originate from in the first place?

My two cents.. I think the Fathers have preserved the substituting of "Lord" in all the languages of the Orthodox Churches not necessarily because one version or language is more sacred than the other, rather because we are not quite clear in the historical sense as to which is exactly the Sacred Name.  We know that it is essentially "I am what I am" or "I exist as I exist" and other such ambiguities, however as to what was the original language or transliteration, such is debatable.  So I think the Fathers have out their their best judgment, decided towards caution in the Orthodox approach to this, and trust the spirit of translation which brought us the Greek Septuagint as a Divine enough example to follow in future translations.

By the way, Lord please have mercy on me for throwing around renditions of Your Holy Name so casually as to prove an argument  police police police

stay blessed,
habte selassie
Logged

"Yet stand aloof from stupid questionings and geneologies and strifes and fightings about law, for they are without benefit and vain." Titus 3:10
pmpn8rGPT
Grammar Nazi in three languages.
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: Eastern Orthodox (old calendarist)
Posts: 1,038


Proof that Russia won the Space Race.


« Reply #13 on: October 25, 2012, 09:30:53 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!


3 And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name YHWH was I not known to them.

4 And I have also established my covenant with them, to give them the land of Canaan, the land of their pilgrimage, wherein they were strangers.

5 And I have also heard the groaning of the children of Israel, whom the Egyptians keep in bondage; and I have remembered my covenant.

6 Wherefore say unto the children of Israel, I am YHWH, and I will bring you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians, and I will rid you out of their bondage, and I will redeem you with a stretched out arm, and with great judgments:
-Exodus 6:3-6

Yes, I'm familiar with the revelation at the Burning Bush but you're quoting a particular translation, my question to you, is how exactly do you know that this revelation was YHWH? Further, how exactly do you know that this version of the Name of God occurs several thousand times across the Scriptures?

stay blessed,
habte selassie
I have a copy of the tanak in Hebrew in my house and it clearly says YHWH in Hebrew
Logged

"Tomorrow, I shall no longer be here."
-Nostradamus's last words.
HabteSelassie
Ises and I-ity
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church
Posts: 3,332



« Reply #14 on: October 25, 2012, 10:01:25 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!


I have a copy of the tanak in Hebrew in my house and it clearly says YHWH in Hebrew


(a) The Tanakh is a modern translation

(b) the oldest Hebrew manuscripts are medieval which is why the Church uses the Septuagint

stay blessed,
habte selassie
« Last Edit: October 25, 2012, 10:01:48 PM by HabteSelassie » Logged

"Yet stand aloof from stupid questionings and geneologies and strifes and fightings about law, for they are without benefit and vain." Titus 3:10
Randa
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: Non Sectarian
Posts: 36


« Reply #15 on: October 26, 2012, 06:02:00 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!


I have a copy of the tanak in Hebrew in my house and it clearly says YHWH in Hebrew


(a) The Tanakh is a modern translation

(b) the oldest Hebrew manuscripts are medieval which is why the Church uses the Septuagint

stay blessed,
habte selassie

TaNaKh stands for Torah (Law), Nevi'im (Prophets) & Ketivum (Writings). It is not a modern translation, it is not a translation at all in fact, unless you mean the Tanakh in modern Israeli Hebrew which is not the same as that of the Masoretic text or any previous Hebrew text.

The Tetragrammaton (YHWH) is found in pre Masoretic Hebew texts such as the Dead Sea Scrolls which pre date Christ, so it is not true that the oldest Hebrew MSS are medieval.

There are also Greek DSS, again which pre date Christ, which contain the Tetragrammaton in Paleo Hebrew script. So the Tetragrammaton did not suddenly appear out of nowhere in the middle ages.

It is also in the Samaritan Pentateuch, which also predates the Masoretic text. Both the Peshitta Old Testament and Targums, which pre date the Masoretic text, contain a more obvious marker for the Tetragrammaton than LORD, Peshitta - MarYah (Lord Yah), Targums - Yah.

And finally Jesus' own name contains the Divine Name, Yeshua literally means "Yahweh saves". The Divine name is contained in many other Hebrew names as well such as Eliyahu (Elijah) which literally means "Yahweh is my God".
« Last Edit: October 26, 2012, 06:23:12 PM by Randa » Logged
HabteSelassie
Ises and I-ity
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church
Posts: 3,332



« Reply #16 on: October 26, 2012, 06:51:09 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!




I have a copy of the tanak in Hebrew in my house and it clearly says YHWH in Hebrew


(a) The Tanakh is a modern translation

(b) the oldest Hebrew manuscripts are medieval which is why the Church uses the Septuagint

stay blessed,
habte selassie

TaNaKh stands for Torah (Law), Nevi'im (Prophets) & Ketivum (Writings). It is not a modern translation, it is not a translation at all in fact, unless you mean the Tanakh in modern Israeli Hebrew which is not the same as that of the Masoretic text or any previous Hebrew text.

The Tetragrammaton (YHWH) is found in pre Masoretic Hebew texts such as the Dead Sea Scrolls which pre date Christ, so it is not true that the oldest Hebrew MSS are medieval.

There are also Greek DSS, again which pre date Christ, which contain the Tetragrammaton in Paleo Hebrew script. So the Tetragrammaton did not suddenly appear out of nowhere in the middle ages.

It is also in the Samaritan Pentateuch, which also predates the Masoretic text. Both the Peshitta Old Testament and Targums, which pre date the Masoretic text, contain a more obvious marker for the Tetragrammaton than LORD, Peshitta - MarYah (Lord Yah), Targums - Yah.

And finally Jesus' own name contains the Divine Name, Yeshua literally means "Yahweh saves". The Divine name is contained in many other Hebrew names as well such as Eliyahu (Elijah) which literally means "Yahweh is my God".


I didn't mean to imply that the Tetragrammaton suddenly appeared out of nowhere, however I wasn't aware that the fragments of the Dead Sea Scrolls were substantive enough to include the Sacred Name rather than Adonai, my mistake.  My point in all this is that we have to be careful about how much we put into one transliteration of the Sacred Name over another.    Is it Yod He Wah Heh? Is it Ehyah Asher Ehyah? Is it Yahweh? Is it just YHWH? Is it neither of any of those? Again, that is why I feel the Fathers, be they Hebrew or Christian, all preferred to replace such with "Lord" and we should be most careful to heed their reverent example.  We aren't fully aware one way or the other, so we should in our ignorance prefer reverence.

stay blessed,
habte selassie
Logged

"Yet stand aloof from stupid questionings and geneologies and strifes and fightings about law, for they are without benefit and vain." Titus 3:10
Randa
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: Non Sectarian
Posts: 36


« Reply #17 on: October 26, 2012, 07:04:33 PM »

I hear you. Personally my favourite substitute is HaShem which literally means "The Name" in Hebrew, the Orthodox Jews usually use this title when referring to God. I like applying it to Jesus as well, as He is after all "The Name above all names". Wink
« Last Edit: October 26, 2012, 07:05:07 PM by Randa » Logged
Sinful Hypocrite
Everyday I am critical of others. Every day I make similar mistakes. Every day I am a hypocrite.
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Greek Orthodox
Jurisdiction: "The Orthodox Church" by Bishop Kallistos Ware: "We know where the Church is but we cannot be sure where it is not; and so we must refrain from passing judgment on non-Orthodox Christians."
Posts: 1,596


Great googly moogly!


« Reply #18 on: October 26, 2012, 07:07:57 PM »

A rose by any other name is still as sweet.
Logged

The Lord gathers his sheep, I fear I am a goat. Lord have mercy.

"A Christian is someone who follows and worships a perfectly good God who revealed his true face through the life, death and resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth.“
Randa
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: Non Sectarian
Posts: 36


« Reply #19 on: October 27, 2012, 03:36:21 AM »

Precisely! Smiley
Logged
pmpn8rGPT
Grammar Nazi in three languages.
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: Eastern Orthodox (old calendarist)
Posts: 1,038


Proof that Russia won the Space Race.


« Reply #20 on: October 27, 2012, 12:53:20 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!


I have a copy of the tanak in Hebrew in my house and it clearly says YHWH in Hebrew



(b) the oldest Hebrew manuscripts are medieval which is why the Church uses the Septuagint

stay blessed,
habte selassie
true, except the Dead Sea Scrolls (but I haven't read them so I wouldn't know)
Logged

"Tomorrow, I shall no longer be here."
-Nostradamus's last words.
Tags: god  YHWH  JHVH  lord  YAHWEH  JEHOVAH 
Pages: 1   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.115 seconds with 49 queries.