Author Topic: SSPX expels Bishop Williamson  (Read 50923 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Charles Martel

  • BANNED for rules violations
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,805
Re: SSPX expels Bishop Williamson
« Reply #360 on: January 25, 2016, 10:45:11 PM »
Quote
Ah the endless victim blaming. "Of course she got gassed at Auschwitz. Look at what she was wearing!" right?
Well, you believe whatever you want. I don't justify the actions of any war criminals killing innocent civilians at Aushwitz any more than I do of war criminals  vaporizing Japanese civilians at Hiroshima or Nagasaki. But, we don't go on endlessly pepetuating the vicitimization of Japanese women being selected for extinction for what they were wearing at the time. And I don't see anyone praying at the remains at them sites come election time neither. But hey, they were just pagan japs and not the special chosen of God.

Quote
But we do have a certain culpability that it's only right we acknowledge it
Acknowledge what? We're not cupable of nothing. I'm sick of all this moaning and groaning and whining and "mea culpas" about something we as Americans and Catholics had any to do with. Like I said, enough with the guilt trip, I'm not playing that game.

Quote
just like we do with black history in the US.
::)

Quote
If we can't do so out of love, we at least do so out of propriety.
Our actions speak enough for what we've done. We don't need a big constant show. Or be constantly reminded we didn't do enough.

Quote
Ever heard of "own goaling?"
Ever heard of Non sequitur?
Sancte Michael Archangele, defende nos in proelio, contra nequitiam et insidias diaboli esto praesidium.

Offline Volnutt

  • Dull Sublunary Lover
  • Hoplitarches
  • *************
  • Posts: 15,089
  • too often left in the payment of false ponchos
  • Faith: Evangelical by default
  • Jurisdiction: Spiritually homeless
Re: SSPX expels Bishop Williamson
« Reply #361 on: January 26, 2016, 05:12:36 AM »
Quote
Ah the endless victim blaming. "Of course she got gassed at Auschwitz. Look at what she was wearing!" right?
Well, you believe whatever you want. I don't justify the actions of any war criminals killing innocent civilians at Aushwitz any more than I do of war criminals  vaporizing Japanese civilians at Hiroshima or Nagasaki. But, we don't go on endlessly pepetuating the vicitimization of Japanese women being selected for extinction for what they were wearing at the time. And I don't see anyone praying at the remains at them sites come election time neither. But hey, they were just pagan japs and not the special chosen of God.

Quote
But we do have a certain culpability that it's only right we acknowledge it
Acknowledge what? We're not cupable of nothing. I'm sick of all this moaning and groaning and whining and "mea culpas" about something we as Americans and Catholics had any to do with. Like I said, enough with the guilt trip, I'm not playing that game.

Quote
just like we do with black history in the US.
::)

Quote
If we can't do so out of love, we at least do so out of propriety.
Our actions speak enough for what we've done. We don't need a big constant show. Or be constantly reminded we didn't do enough.

We are always guilty because we are always our brother's keeper and because we are all participants in the evil of the current world system. Justifying oneself is the road to death. We should be like Daniel, reproaching ourselves for the sins of all our brethren.

Quote
Ever heard of "own goaling?"
Ever heard of Non sequitur?

You said it yourself in your previous post that the Jews "reaped what they sowed." Thus you victim blame even as you seek to defend yourself.
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline Charles Martel

  • BANNED for rules violations
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,805
Re: SSPX expels Bishop Williamson
« Reply #362 on: January 26, 2016, 10:22:40 AM »
Quote
We are always guilty because we are always our brother's keeper and because we are all participants in the evil of the current world system
Not me, I don't believe in that colllective guilt nonsense. Funny how you (and many others) love to direct that kind of thinking at me and everyone else, but when the Synagogue is participating in evil all the rules change and it's simply not *all* the jews fault but an inherent, insane "antisemitic" reaction by the victims of said evil. I see where you're coming from, rules for the Talmudic jews and rules for the rest of us. Nothing new here.

Quote
Justifying oneself is the road to death.
So is forever accepting blame and a gult-complex.

Quote
. We should be like Daniel, reproaching ourselves for the sins of all our brethren.
And get tossed to the lions as well.

Quote
You said it yourself in your previous post that the Jews "reaped what they sowed."
When their wrong yes, just like the state of Israel or racists Zionism or Talmudic Judaism. We all, and when I say we, i'm including people, nations and cultures as well, reap what we sow. The U.S. is a perfect example of this now, the more we turn away from God , engage in the mass murder of other people (including our own) and slide down the ladder of immorality, we will one day "reap what we sow" one day as well, if we aren't already. The Church is reaping what some of it's sowed in the hierarchy, that's why  people are leaving in mass numbers and all the divisions within it we have today.

Be not decieved, God is not mocked.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2016, 10:24:44 AM by Charles Martel »
Sancte Michael Archangele, defende nos in proelio, contra nequitiam et insidias diaboli esto praesidium.

Offline Charles Martel

  • BANNED for rules violations
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,805
Re: SSPX expels Bishop Williamson
« Reply #363 on: January 26, 2016, 10:25:55 AM »
Quote
" Thus you victim blame even as you seek to defend yourself.
There's only one victim here pal; the Truth.
Sancte Michael Archangele, defende nos in proelio, contra nequitiam et insidias diaboli esto praesidium.

Offline Peter J

  • still a CAF poster
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,494
  • Faith: Christian
Re: SSPX expels Bishop Williamson
« Reply #364 on: January 26, 2016, 06:33:36 PM »
One thing doesn't means the other.

M. Kolbe was very critical of jews as a lot of polish people pre and post Vatican the II. He NEVER said that jews were to be murdered!!!!!!!!...but he was critical towards sionism, jewish financial power and jews salvation, he said that jews needed to convert to save their souls... I dont know if he talked about connection between some jews and bolschevism but that was a common theory at that time not only for catholics also for eastern orthodox.

He was not a nazi. He viewed nazism as a pagan ideology , very anti christian and very damaging to humanity. So he was imprisoned for his anti nazi views.

In 1930's Europe you could be a christian, anti nazi and critical of jewish power and involvement in politics (by today standards...) and wasn't a confusing thing.

"Jewish-bolschevist-freemanson complot" theory was a common conspiracy theory among christians and non christians, catholics, protestant and orthodox at that time.

I'm not justifying Shoah's or jewish persecution, I'm only trying to talk about the historial facts of that time.

I am aware of that. Yet his antisemitic beliefs do not really make me feel sympathetic to him. The fact, in one of his articles he called the Orthodoxy as a "religion of Satan" IIRC does not ern my sympathy either.

I'm just glad I live after Vatican II.  :)
- Peter Jericho

Offline Volnutt

  • Dull Sublunary Lover
  • Hoplitarches
  • *************
  • Posts: 15,089
  • too often left in the payment of false ponchos
  • Faith: Evangelical by default
  • Jurisdiction: Spiritually homeless
Re: SSPX expels Bishop Williamson
« Reply #365 on: January 26, 2016, 06:52:59 PM »
Quote
We are always guilty because we are always our brother's keeper and because we are all participants in the evil of the current world system
Not me, I don't believe in that colllective guilt nonsense. Funny how you (and many others) love to direct that kind of thinking at me and everyone else, but when the Synagogue is participating in evil all the rules change and it's simply not *all* the jews fault but an inherent, insane "antisemitic" reaction by the victims of said evil. I see where you're coming from, rules for the Talmudic jews and rules for the rest of us. Nothing new here.

I didn't say that. Suffering is the consequence of sin that we all have to live with and that we all contribute to. Your schadenfreude-ish singling out of the Jews as being somehow uniquely responsible for their own sufferings at the hands of European Christians (cultural and otherwise) is a distortion of that truth (and of the Truth), though.


I'm tired of this. Have the last word if you want.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2016, 06:53:45 PM by Volnutt »
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline ialmisry

  • There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
  • Strategos
  • ******************
  • Posts: 41,794
Re: SSPX expels Bishop Williamson
« Reply #366 on: January 26, 2016, 11:45:46 PM »
And not for nothing, but who are the Jews or anyone else to dictate to the Church who they can keep as Bishops or lift excommunications? These are the very same people that reject the divinity of Christ altogether.

Maybe they're just shrewd and taking advantage of the fact that Abp Lefebvre dictated to Rome who he was going to ordain as bishops, what excommunications were of no effect, when "ecclesia supplet" does and does not apply, etc.  If the "true" Catholics don't respect their Pope or their Church, why should the Jews?  That Bp Williamson is a rather strange fellow just makes it look less unreasonable.
Regardless how they or any other nonCatholics feel about what went down between SSPX and Rome, it's not their place to influence it either way. Like I said, we don't get involved in their Synagogues and Temples in the midst of their squabbles about what jew should be held in high standard or who the "real jews" are. that is none of our business.

As for SSPX , they're in schism and need to work out their own problems with the Vatican without no interference from anyone else to settle their differences.

I'm sure you can relate to this. ;)
schism if the Vatican was catholic,since it's not there's no schism
no, heretics can have schisms too. The Vatican and the SSPX show that, as well as the other Ultramontanist groups you said you had "problems with."
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Peter J

  • still a CAF poster
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,494
  • Faith: Christian
Re: SSPX expels Bishop Williamson
« Reply #367 on: January 27, 2016, 10:26:48 PM »
So noted. But most of it, "... if the Vatican was catholic, since it's not ..." sounds quite like something you'd say.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2016, 10:32:29 PM by Peter J »
- Peter Jericho

Offline Charles Martel

  • BANNED for rules violations
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,805
Re: SSPX expels Bishop Williamson
« Reply #368 on: January 28, 2016, 08:55:13 AM »
Quote
no, heretics can have schisms too.
Of course, why else do you have over 30,000 other Protestant "churches" out there these days? This is where error leads you. Into oblivion.
Sancte Michael Archangele, defende nos in proelio, contra nequitiam et insidias diaboli esto praesidium.

Offline Charles Martel

  • BANNED for rules violations
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,805
Re: SSPX expels Bishop Williamson
« Reply #369 on: January 28, 2016, 08:59:07 AM »
And not for nothing, but who are the Jews or anyone else to dictate to the Church who they can keep as Bishops or lift excommunications? These are the very same people that reject the divinity of Christ altogether.

Maybe they're just shrewd and taking advantage of the fact that Abp Lefebvre dictated to Rome who he was going to ordain as bishops, what excommunications were of no effect, when "ecclesia supplet" does and does not apply, etc.  If the "true" Catholics don't respect their Pope or their Church, why should the Jews?  That Bp Williamson is a rather strange fellow just makes it look less unreasonable.
Regardless how they or any other nonCatholics feel about what went down between SSPX and Rome, it's not their place to influence it either way. Like I said, we don't get involved in their Synagogues and Temples in the midst of their squabbles about what jew should be held in high standard or who the "real jews" are. that is none of our business.

As for SSPX , they're in schism and need to work out their own problems with the Vatican without no interference from anyone else to settle their differences.

I'm sure you can relate to this. ;)
schism if the Vatican was catholic,since it's not there's no schism
Says the  guy with the  pope-less faith.

I guess the gates of hell finally prevailed eh?
Sancte Michael Archangele, defende nos in proelio, contra nequitiam et insidias diaboli esto praesidium.

Offline TheTrisagion

  • Hoplitarches
  • *************
  • Posts: 17,819
  • All good things come to an end
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Re: SSPX expels Bishop Williamson
« Reply #370 on: January 28, 2016, 10:20:17 AM »
And not for nothing, but who are the Jews or anyone else to dictate to the Church who they can keep as Bishops or lift excommunications? These are the very same people that reject the divinity of Christ altogether.

Maybe they're just shrewd and taking advantage of the fact that Abp Lefebvre dictated to Rome who he was going to ordain as bishops, what excommunications were of no effect, when "ecclesia supplet" does and does not apply, etc.  If the "true" Catholics don't respect their Pope or their Church, why should the Jews?  That Bp Williamson is a rather strange fellow just makes it look less unreasonable.
Regardless how they or any other nonCatholics feel about what went down between SSPX and Rome, it's not their place to influence it either way. Like I said, we don't get involved in their Synagogues and Temples in the midst of their squabbles about what jew should be held in high standard or who the "real jews" are. that is none of our business.

As for SSPX , they're in schism and need to work out their own problems with the Vatican without no interference from anyone else to settle their differences.

I'm sure you can relate to this. ;)
schism if the Vatican was catholic,since it's not there's no schism
Says the  guy with the  pope-less faith.

I guess the gates of hell finally prevailed eh?
Not as long as sedevacantist is with us. Church of one.  ;D
God bless!

Offline Papist

  • Patriarch of Pontification
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 13,771
Re: SSPX expels Bishop Williamson
« Reply #371 on: January 28, 2016, 01:14:04 PM »
Charles Martel vs. Sedevacantist - This will be EPIC!!!!!!!

This is what I have been waiting for.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2016, 01:15:20 PM by Papist »
"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

Offline biro

  • Site Supporter
  • Protostrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 23,133
  • Excelsior
    • Archive of Our Own works
Re: SSPX expels Bishop Williamson
« Reply #372 on: January 28, 2016, 02:15:08 PM »
I'll get popcorn.
https://archiveofourown.org/users/Parakeetist/works Warning: stories have mature content.

"Some people only feel good when they are praising the Lord." - Coptic bishop

Mt. 21:31 Jesus said to them, “Assuredly, I say to you that tax collectors and harlots enter the kingdom of God before you."

"Our Lord will *never* stop loving us." - Fr. Michael P.

Offline sedevacantist

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 701
Re: SSPX expels Bishop Williamson
« Reply #373 on: January 28, 2016, 10:49:24 PM »
And not for nothing, but who are the Jews or anyone else to dictate to the Church who they can keep as Bishops or lift excommunications? These are the very same people that reject the divinity of Christ altogether.

Maybe they're just shrewd and taking advantage of the fact that Abp Lefebvre dictated to Rome who he was going to ordain as bishops, what excommunications were of no effect, when "ecclesia supplet" does and does not apply, etc.  If the "true" Catholics don't respect their Pope or their Church, why should the Jews?  That Bp Williamson is a rather strange fellow just makes it look less unreasonable.
Regardless how they or any other nonCatholics feel about what went down between SSPX and Rome, it's not their place to influence it either way. Like I said, we don't get involved in their Synagogues and Temples in the midst of their squabbles about what jew should be held in high standard or who the "real jews" are. that is none of our business.

As for SSPX , they're in schism and need to work out their own problems with the Vatican without no interference from anyone else to settle their differences.

I'm sure you can relate to this. ;)
schism if the Vatican was catholic,since it's not there's no schism
Says the  guy with the  pope-less faith.

I guess the gates of hell finally prevailed eh?



No, indefectibility (the promise of Christ to always be with His Church, and that the gates of Hell will not prevail against it) means that the Church will, until the end of time, remain essentially what she is.  The indefectibility of the Church requires that at least a remnant of the Church will exist until the end of the world, and that a true pope will never authoritatively teach error to the entire Church.  It does not exclude antipopes posing as popes (as we’ve had numerous times in the past, even in Rome) or a counterfeit sect that reduces the adherents of the true Catholic Church to a remnant in the last days.  This is precisely what is predicted to occur in the last days and what happened during the Arian crisis.   
St. Athanasius: "Even if Catholics faithful to tradition are reduced to a handful, they are the ones who are the true Church of Jesus Christ."
Further, it should be noted that the Church has defined that heretics are the gates of Hell which Our Lord mentioned in Matthew 16! 
Pope Vigilius, Second Council of Constantinople, 553: “… we bear in mind what was promised about the holy Church and Him who said the gates of Hell will not prevail against it (by these we understand the death-dealing tongues of heretics)…”3 
Pope St. Leo IX, Sept. 2, 1053: “The holy Church built upon a rock, that is Christ, and upon Peter… because by the gates of Hell, that is, by the disputations of heretics which lead the vain to destruction, it would never be overcome.”4 
St. Thomas Aquinas (+1262): “Wisdom may fill the hearts of the faithful, and put to silence the dread folly of heretics, fittingly referred to as the gates of Hell.”5 (Intro. To Catena Aurea.) 

Notice that heretics are the gates of Hell.  Heretics are not members of the Church.  That’s why a heretic could never be a pope.  The gates of Hell (heretics) could never have authority over the Church of Christ.  It’s not those who expose the heretical Vatican II antipopes who are asserting that the gates of Hell have prevailed against the Church; it’s those who obstinately defend them as popes, even though they can clearly be proven to be manifest heretics. 

Pope Innocent III, Eius exemplo, Dec. 18, 1208: “By the heart we believe and by the mouth we confess the one Church, not of heretics, but the Holy Roman, Catholic, and Apostolic Church outside of which we believe that no one is saved.”

St. Francis De Sales (17th century), Doctor of the Church, The Catholic Controversy, pp. 305-306:  "Now when he [the Pope] is explicitly a heretic, he falls ipso facto from his dignity and out of the Church..."  

There is not one teaching of the Catholic Church that can be quoted which is contrary to the fact that there is presently a counterfeit sect which has reduced the true Catholic Church to a remnant in the days of the Great Apostasy, which is presided over by antipopes who have falsely posed as popes.  Those who assert that the Vatican II sect is the Catholic Church assert that the Catholic Church officially endorses false religions and false doctrines.  This is impossible and would mean that the gates of Hell have prevailed against the Catholic Church. 

question for you, do you agree with Francis that we shouldn't convert the orthodox to the Catholic faith? yes or no?  do you agree that the Church has taught when a pope is a heretic he is outside the church? yes or no?

ok, guy

Offline Volnutt

  • Dull Sublunary Lover
  • Hoplitarches
  • *************
  • Posts: 15,089
  • too often left in the payment of false ponchos
  • Faith: Evangelical by default
  • Jurisdiction: Spiritually homeless
Re: SSPX expels Bishop Williamson
« Reply #374 on: January 29, 2016, 07:28:44 PM »
If the Church can go without a Pope for almost 60 years and counting, then obviously a Pope was never needed in the first place.

So your claim that Papal Supremacy and Infallibility are required to ensure the true Church is also false.

Therefore, on what basis do you claim to be part of the true Church? Why not become a Conclavist (or even, dare I say, Orthodox) and at least be a little more consistent?
« Last Edit: January 29, 2016, 07:29:44 PM by Volnutt »
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline Peter J

  • still a CAF poster
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,494
  • Faith: Christian
Re: SSPX expels Bishop Williamson
« Reply #375 on: February 05, 2016, 12:45:22 PM »
Charles Martel vs. Sedevacantist - This will be EPIC!!!!!!!

This is what I have been waiting for.

I'm out of it for a little while and every Catholic poster starts getting delusions of sedevacantism.
- Peter Jericho

Offline sedevacantist

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 701
Re: SSPX expels Bishop Williamson
« Reply #376 on: February 05, 2016, 10:51:57 PM »
Charles Martel vs. Sedevacantist - This will be EPIC!!!!!!!

This is what I have been waiting for.

I'm out of it for a little while and every Catholic poster starts getting delusions of sedevacantism.
you are ignorant if you think Francis is a catholic

Francis, Conversations With Jorge Bergoglio, p. 208: “Not long ago I was in a synagogue taking part in a ceremony.  I prayed a lot and, while praying, I heard a phrase from one of the books of wisdom that had slipped my mind: ‘Lord, may I bear mockery in silence.’  It gave me much peace and joy.”

Francis, On Heaven and Earth, p. 188: “The Church officially recognizes that the People of Israel continue to be the Chosen People.  Nowhere does it say: ‘You lost the game, now it is our turn.’  It is a recognition of the People of Israel.”

This clearly means that Francis holds that people who reject Jesus Christ are the chosen people in God’s sight.  This is a blasphemy against God.


Francis, On Heaven and Earth, p. 37: “There also exists the ministerial intercession of a rabbi or a priest who prays or asks for the health of another and it is granted.  What gives credibility to a person who is healing according to the law of God is simplicity, humility and the absence of a spectacle.”

So Francis believes that Jewish rabbis have a true spiritual ministry of intercession “according to the law of God”.


Francis, On Heaven and Earth, p. 220:  Francis speaks to Jewish Rabbi Skorka: “I did not forget how you invited me twice to pray and to speak in the synagogue, and I invited you to speak to my seminarians about values.”

In the cathedral in Buenos Aires, Argentina on April 15, 1998 Francis held an interreligious service to honor deceased Jews.  During this meeting, Francis said to the Jews:


“… we are all brothers, because we have the seal of God in our hearts.”[1]

The seal of God is baptism – which Jews reject.

In September 2004, Francis participated in a Jewish service inside a synagogue[2].  And on Nov. 9, 2005 Francis had another service inside a Basilica commemorating deceased Jews[3].  This included Francis lighting a candle in honor of them.

In 2007, Francis attended Jewish Rosh Hashanah services at a synagogue in Argentina.  Francis told the Jewish congregation during his visit that he went to the synagogue to examine his heart, “like a pilgrim, together with you, my elder brothers”[4].

On July 7, 2008 Francis endorsed Rabbi Sergio Bergman’s books.  Francis called him a “believer” and said: “… his job is the one of a rabbi who as our master helps us…”[].

On June 7, 2010 Francis visited the Jewish Center in Argentina[6] and called Jews “our elder brothers” and “the chosen people of God”[7].  He also prayed in front of list of deceased Jews in order to honor them.


“That reminder… is another link of pain, persecution and blood that the chosen people of God have suffered in history.”

“I thank the Lord that on this day I am allowed to share part of the way with our elder brothers…”

On October 11, 2012 Francis gave Rabbi Abraham Skorka – who is a well-known supporter of homosexuality – an honorary degree at a “Catholic” university.  After the rabbi received the degree, he said: “We are waiting for the Messiah, but in order for him to come we have to prepare the land…”[8]  So the Rabbi explicitly rejected the Messiah Jesus Christ right in front of Francis.

On November 8, 2012 Francis was the keynote speaker and took active part in another Jewish religious ceremony in the cathedral in Buenos Aires, Argentina[9]. This Jewish religious ceremony was again dedicated to honor deceased Jews.  The final candle commemorating deceased Jews was jointly lit by a rabbi and Francis[10].  Under Francis’ direction, memorial services honoring deceased Jews have been celebrated in so-called Catholic churches in Argentina every year since 1998.

To take part in a Jewish religious ceremony for deceased Jews is complete apostasy from the Catholic faith.

On December 14, 2012, just a few months before his election as antipope – Francis celebrated Hanukkah with Jews in Argentina which included Francis lighting a menorah[11].

On March 13, 2013 just a few hours after Francis was elected antipope, he sent out a greeting letter to the Christ-rejecting chief rabbi of Rome[12].

Offline Mor Ephrem

  • A highly skilled and trained Freudian feminist slut
  • Section Moderator
  • Hypatos
  • *****
  • Posts: 36,131
  • Σφάλμα μεγάλο
    • OrthodoxChristianity.net
  • Faith: Mercenary Freudianism
  • Jurisdiction: Texas Feminist Coptic
Re: SSPX expels Bishop Williamson
« Reply #377 on: February 05, 2016, 11:11:57 PM »
Catholics really don't read the Bible, do they?
Quote
Person.  Woman.  Man.  Camera.  TV.

Quote
Oh you Greeks, you are all dumb!

An Athonite

Offline sedevacantist

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 701
Re: SSPX expels Bishop Williamson
« Reply #378 on: February 06, 2016, 08:51:41 AM »
Catholics really don't read the Bible, do they?
depends who you call a catholic, if you are referring to me why not give me a bible quote that you think contradicts my position, then we'll see who reads the bible

Offline PeterTheAleut

  • The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
  • Hypatos
  • *****************
  • Posts: 37,280
  • Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Re: SSPX expels Bishop Williamson
« Reply #379 on: February 06, 2016, 03:42:11 PM »
Catholics really don't read the Bible, do they?
depends who you call a catholic, if you are referring to me why not give me a bible quote that you think contradicts my position, then we'll see who reads the bible
Why don't you start by giving us a Bible quote that supports your position?
Not all who wander are lost.

Offline Mor Ephrem

  • A highly skilled and trained Freudian feminist slut
  • Section Moderator
  • Hypatos
  • *****
  • Posts: 36,131
  • Σφάλμα μεγάλο
    • OrthodoxChristianity.net
  • Faith: Mercenary Freudianism
  • Jurisdiction: Texas Feminist Coptic
Re: SSPX expels Bishop Williamson
« Reply #380 on: February 06, 2016, 05:24:48 PM »
Catholics really don't read the Bible, do they?
depends who you call a catholic, if you are referring to me why not give me a bible quote that you think contradicts my position, then we'll see who reads the bible

Romans.
Quote
Person.  Woman.  Man.  Camera.  TV.

Quote
Oh you Greeks, you are all dumb!

An Athonite

Offline sedevacantist

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 701
Re: SSPX expels Bishop Williamson
« Reply #381 on: February 06, 2016, 11:23:52 PM »
Catholics really don't read the Bible, do they?
depends who you call a catholic, if you are referring to me why not give me a bible quote that you think contradicts my position, then we'll see who reads the bible
Why don't you start by giving us a Bible quote that supports your position?
John 21:15-17 “So when they had dined, Jesus saith to Simon Peter, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me more than these? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my lambs. He saith to him again the second time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Tend my sheep. He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep.

Offline sedevacantist

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 701
Re: SSPX expels Bishop Williamson
« Reply #382 on: February 06, 2016, 11:24:55 PM »
Catholics really don't read the Bible, do they?
depends who you call a catholic, if you are referring to me why not give me a bible quote that you think contradicts my position, then we'll see who reads the bible

Romans.
typical

Offline sedevacantist

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 701
Re: SSPX expels Bishop Williamson
« Reply #383 on: February 06, 2016, 11:34:39 PM »
If the Church can go without a Pope for almost 60 years and counting, then obviously a Pope was never needed in the first place.

So your claim that Papal Supremacy and Infallibility are required to ensure the true Church is also false.

Therefore, on what basis do you claim to be part of the true Church? Why not become a Conclavist (or even, dare I say, Orthodox) and at least be a little more consistent?
if you suggest a pope was never needed in the first place then you have a problem with Jesus, who chose St Peter as first leader(pope)
Please follow this logically.

John 1:42 “Jesus looked at him and said, “You are Simon son of John. You will be called Cephas (which, when translated, is Peter).” (New International Version)

In John 1:42, Peter’s new name is given in its Aramaic form: Cephas. Some may ask, “I thought Peter’s name was Kepha in Aramaic.” Yes, but in English versions of John 1:42, Cephas is simply the Anglicized version of the Aramaic Kepha. So John 1:42 says that Cephas is translated as Peter, the apostle’s name.

Cephas = Peter’s name (John 1:42).

We also know that Cephas would be translated as petra, the word for the rock (Mt. 16:18) upon which the Church is built.

Since Cephas = Peter’s new name (as John 1:42 says) and Cephas = petra, the word for rock, it is undeniable that Peter’s new name = petra, the rock.

Peter’s new name is equivalent to the rock. There’s no doubt about it.

The Primacy of Peter is a collection of essays by Eastern “Orthodox” scholars. The Eastern “Orthodox” are not Catholic and do not accept the Papacy. This work (The Primacy of Peter) was edited by the famous Eastern “Orthodox” scholar John Meyendorf. In this Eastern “Orthodox” work, it is repeatedly admitted that the Bible teaches that Peter is the rock:

“There is a formal and real identity between Peter and rock. Jesus will build the church upon Cephas.” (The Primacy of Peter, edited by John Meyendorf, St. Vladimir’s Seminary Press, 1992, p. 48.)

“By confessing his faith in the divinity of the Savior, Peter became the Rock of the Church.” (The Primacy of Peter, p. 72.)

“The Apostle Peter is the rock on which the Church is built, and will remain the rock until the coming of the Lord.” (The Primacy of Peter, p. 122; also pp. 63-65; etc.)

CONSIDERING THE CONTEXT, IT WOULD BE ABSURD IF JESUS WERE NOT SAYING THAT PETER IS THE ROCK

Think for a moment how absurd it would be if Jesus were not saying that Peter is the rock. As we’ve just shown, Jesus pronounces Peter alone blessed.

“And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona…” (Matthew 16:17)

Jesus changes only Peter’s name.

“And I say also unto thee, that thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church…” (Matthew 16:18)

Jesus gathers His disciples and gives the keys of the Kingdom to Peter alone. He then gives to Peter alone the power to bind and loose.

“And I will give unto thee [Peter] the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven…” (Matthew 16:19)

But when he’s talking about the rock, even though the statement is in the midst of all of these others to Peter alone, Protestants would have us believe that Jesus is not talking about Peter but about Himself or something else. It’s ridiculous. It’s obviously false that argumentation really shouldn’t be necessary.

Further, it should be pointed out that the reason that Jesus, while referring to Peter, says “upon this rock I will build my Church,” rather than upon you, is because while Peter is definitely the rock, the office He is establishing in Peter (the Papacy) will endure through the ages well after Peter is gone. It’s founded upon Peter, but will continue to exist after Peter is gone. It’s an institution in Peter, but will not be limited to Peter. He will have successors.

Offline Mor Ephrem

  • A highly skilled and trained Freudian feminist slut
  • Section Moderator
  • Hypatos
  • *****
  • Posts: 36,131
  • Σφάλμα μεγάλο
    • OrthodoxChristianity.net
  • Faith: Mercenary Freudianism
  • Jurisdiction: Texas Feminist Coptic
Re: SSPX expels Bishop Williamson
« Reply #384 on: February 07, 2016, 02:05:59 PM »
Catholics really don't read the Bible, do they?
depends who you call a catholic, if you are referring to me why not give me a bible quote that you think contradicts my position, then we'll see who reads the bible

Romans.
typical

What do you mean by that? 
Quote
Person.  Woman.  Man.  Camera.  TV.

Quote
Oh you Greeks, you are all dumb!

An Athonite

Offline sedevacantist

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 701
Re: SSPX expels Bishop Williamson
« Reply #385 on: February 07, 2016, 03:21:22 PM »
Catholics really don't read the Bible, do they?
depends who you call a catholic, if you are referring to me why not give me a bible quote that you think contradicts my position, then we'll see who reads the bible

Romans.
typical

What do you mean by that?
I ask for a passage from the bible that specifically refutes anything I have posted and you respond by "Romans", typical as in like others here you can't give specifics, instead you give evasive answers

Offline Mor Ephrem

  • A highly skilled and trained Freudian feminist slut
  • Section Moderator
  • Hypatos
  • *****
  • Posts: 36,131
  • Σφάλμα μεγάλο
    • OrthodoxChristianity.net
  • Faith: Mercenary Freudianism
  • Jurisdiction: Texas Feminist Coptic
Re: SSPX expels Bishop Williamson
« Reply #386 on: February 08, 2016, 01:03:57 PM »
Catholics really don't read the Bible, do they?
depends who you call a catholic, if you are referring to me why not give me a bible quote that you think contradicts my position, then we'll see who reads the bible

Romans.
typical

What do you mean by that?
I ask for a passage from the bible that specifically refutes anything I have posted and you respond by "Romans", typical as in like others here you can't give specifics, instead you give evasive answers

Not evasive at all, just an acknowledgement that, among the Scriptures, Romans really needs to be taken as a whole.  Anyway, start with Romans 9 and keep reading.
Quote
Person.  Woman.  Man.  Camera.  TV.

Quote
Oh you Greeks, you are all dumb!

An Athonite

Offline TheTrisagion

  • Hoplitarches
  • *************
  • Posts: 17,819
  • All good things come to an end
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Re: SSPX expels Bishop Williamson
« Reply #387 on: February 08, 2016, 02:23:50 PM »
Catholics really don't read the Bible, do they?
depends who you call a catholic, if you are referring to me why not give me a bible quote that you think contradicts my position, then we'll see who reads the bible

Romans.
typical

What do you mean by that?
I ask for a passage from the bible that specifically refutes anything I have posted and you respond by "Romans", typical as in like others here you can't give specifics, instead you give evasive answers
Sometimes, prooftexting verses is not the best way to go about building a theological construct.
God bless!

Offline sedevacantist

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 701
Re: SSPX expels Bishop Williamson
« Reply #388 on: February 08, 2016, 06:59:55 PM »
Catholics really don't read the Bible, do they?
depends who you call a catholic, if you are referring to me why not give me a bible quote that you think contradicts my position, then we'll see who reads the bible

Romans.
typical

What do you mean by that?
I ask for a passage from the bible that specifically refutes anything I have posted and you respond by "Romans", typical as in like others here you can't give specifics, instead you give evasive answers

Not evasive at all, just an acknowledgement that, among the Scriptures, Romans really needs to be taken as a whole.  Anyway, start with Romans 9 and keep reading.
what teaching of the Catholic Church you think contradicts Romans 9

Offline Mor Ephrem

  • A highly skilled and trained Freudian feminist slut
  • Section Moderator
  • Hypatos
  • *****
  • Posts: 36,131
  • Σφάλμα μεγάλο
    • OrthodoxChristianity.net
  • Faith: Mercenary Freudianism
  • Jurisdiction: Texas Feminist Coptic
Re: SSPX expels Bishop Williamson
« Reply #389 on: February 09, 2016, 01:38:12 PM »
Catholics really don't read the Bible, do they?
depends who you call a catholic, if you are referring to me why not give me a bible quote that you think contradicts my position, then we'll see who reads the bible

Romans.
typical

What do you mean by that?
I ask for a passage from the bible that specifically refutes anything I have posted and you respond by "Romans", typical as in like others here you can't give specifics, instead you give evasive answers

Not evasive at all, just an acknowledgement that, among the Scriptures, Romans really needs to be taken as a whole.  Anyway, start with Romans 9 and keep reading.
what teaching of the Catholic Church you think contradicts Romans 9

Not a teaching of the Catholic Church, but a teaching of sedevacantist.

Read Romans and then read reply no. 376.  Some of your criticisms are not easy to make, but they are easy to sputter while foaming at the mouth. 
Quote
Person.  Woman.  Man.  Camera.  TV.

Quote
Oh you Greeks, you are all dumb!

An Athonite

Offline sedevacantist

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 701
Re: SSPX expels Bishop Williamson
« Reply #390 on: February 09, 2016, 06:35:54 PM »
Catholics really don't read the Bible, do they?
depends who you call a catholic, if you are referring to me why not give me a bible quote that you think contradicts my position, then we'll see who reads the bible

Romans.
typical

What do you mean by that?
I ask for a passage from the bible that specifically refutes anything I have posted and you respond by "Romans", typical as in like others here you can't give specifics, instead you give evasive answers

Not evasive at all, just an acknowledgement that, among the Scriptures, Romans really needs to be taken as a whole.  Anyway, start with Romans 9 and keep reading.
what teaching of the Catholic Church you think contradicts Romans 9

Not a teaching of the Catholic Church, but a teaching of sedevacantist.

Read Romans and then read reply no. 376.  Some of your criticisms are not easy to make, but they are easy to sputter while foaming at the mouth.
there's nothing in Romans that contradicts sedevacantism

Offline Mor Ephrem

  • A highly skilled and trained Freudian feminist slut
  • Section Moderator
  • Hypatos
  • *****
  • Posts: 36,131
  • Σφάλμα μεγάλο
    • OrthodoxChristianity.net
  • Faith: Mercenary Freudianism
  • Jurisdiction: Texas Feminist Coptic
Re: SSPX expels Bishop Williamson
« Reply #391 on: February 09, 2016, 10:36:39 PM »
Catholics really don't read the Bible, do they?
depends who you call a catholic, if you are referring to me why not give me a bible quote that you think contradicts my position, then we'll see who reads the bible

Romans.
typical

What do you mean by that?
I ask for a passage from the bible that specifically refutes anything I have posted and you respond by "Romans", typical as in like others here you can't give specifics, instead you give evasive answers

Not evasive at all, just an acknowledgement that, among the Scriptures, Romans really needs to be taken as a whole.  Anyway, start with Romans 9 and keep reading.
what teaching of the Catholic Church you think contradicts Romans 9

Not a teaching of the Catholic Church, but a teaching of sedevacantist.

Read Romans and then read reply no. 376.  Some of your criticisms are not easy to make, but they are easy to sputter while foaming at the mouth.
there's nothing in Romans that contradicts sedevacantism

Oh!  Now that you've explained it, it makes total sense.  Where can I find a genuine and true Roman Catholic church in New York so I may repent of my past errors and convert to the true faith?
Quote
Person.  Woman.  Man.  Camera.  TV.

Quote
Oh you Greeks, you are all dumb!

An Athonite

Offline sedevacantist

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 701
Re: SSPX expels Bishop Williamson
« Reply #392 on: February 09, 2016, 11:06:00 PM »
Catholics really don't read the Bible, do they?
depends who you call a catholic, if you are referring to me why not give me a bible quote that you think contradicts my position, then we'll see who reads the bible

Romans.
typical

What do you mean by that?
I ask for a passage from the bible that specifically refutes anything I have posted and you respond by "Romans", typical as in like others here you can't give specifics, instead you give evasive answers

Not evasive at all, just an acknowledgement that, among the Scriptures, Romans really needs to be taken as a whole.  Anyway, start with Romans 9 and keep reading.
what teaching of the Catholic Church you think contradicts Romans 9

Not a teaching of the Catholic Church, but a teaching of sedevacantist.

Read Romans and then read reply no. 376.  Some of your criticisms are not easy to make, but they are easy to sputter while foaming at the mouth.
there's nothing in Romans that contradicts sedevacantism

Oh!  Now that you've explained it, it makes total sense.  Where can I find a genuine and true Roman Catholic church in New York so I may repent of my past errors and convert to the true faith?
the burden is on you to explain it, if there is something in Romans that you believe contradicts sedvacantism then post it, you sound ridiculous

Offline Mor Ephrem

  • A highly skilled and trained Freudian feminist slut
  • Section Moderator
  • Hypatos
  • *****
  • Posts: 36,131
  • Σφάλμα μεγάλο
    • OrthodoxChristianity.net
  • Faith: Mercenary Freudianism
  • Jurisdiction: Texas Feminist Coptic
Re: SSPX expels Bishop Williamson
« Reply #393 on: February 10, 2016, 11:45:57 AM »
Catholics really don't read the Bible, do they?
depends who you call a catholic, if you are referring to me why not give me a bible quote that you think contradicts my position, then we'll see who reads the bible

Romans.
typical

What do you mean by that?
I ask for a passage from the bible that specifically refutes anything I have posted and you respond by "Romans", typical as in like others here you can't give specifics, instead you give evasive answers

Not evasive at all, just an acknowledgement that, among the Scriptures, Romans really needs to be taken as a whole.  Anyway, start with Romans 9 and keep reading.
what teaching of the Catholic Church you think contradicts Romans 9

Not a teaching of the Catholic Church, but a teaching of sedevacantist.

Read Romans and then read reply no. 376.  Some of your criticisms are not easy to make, but they are easy to sputter while foaming at the mouth.
there's nothing in Romans that contradicts sedevacantism

Oh!  Now that you've explained it, it makes total sense.  Where can I find a genuine and true Roman Catholic church in New York so I may repent of my past errors and convert to the true faith?
the burden is on you to explain it, if there is something in Romans that you believe contradicts sedvacantism then post it, you sound ridiculous

Is that how you treat all converts?  I want to become a true Roman Catholic and learn the hidden mysteries.  Where can I find a genuine church?
Quote
Person.  Woman.  Man.  Camera.  TV.

Quote
Oh you Greeks, you are all dumb!

An Athonite

Offline Charles Martel

  • BANNED for rules violations
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,805
Re: SSPX expels Bishop Williamson
« Reply #394 on: February 10, 2016, 11:50:31 AM »
And not for nothing, but who are the Jews or anyone else to dictate to the Church who they can keep as Bishops or lift excommunications? These are the very same people that reject the divinity of Christ altogether.

Maybe they're just shrewd and taking advantage of the fact that Abp Lefebvre dictated to Rome who he was going to ordain as bishops, what excommunications were of no effect, when "ecclesia supplet" does and does not apply, etc.  If the "true" Catholics don't respect their Pope or their Church, why should the Jews?  That Bp Williamson is a rather strange fellow just makes it look less unreasonable.
Regardless how they or any other nonCatholics feel about what went down between SSPX and Rome, it's not their place to influence it either way. Like I said, we don't get involved in their Synagogues and Temples in the midst of their squabbles about what jew should be held in high standard or who the "real jews" are. that is none of our business.

As for SSPX , they're in schism and need to work out their own problems with the Vatican without no interference from anyone else to settle their differences.

I'm sure you can relate to this. ;)
schism if the Vatican was catholic,since it's not there's no schism
Says the  guy with the  pope-less faith.

I guess the gates of hell finally prevailed eh?



No, indefectibility (the promise of Christ to always be with His Church, and that the gates of Hell will not prevail against it) means that the Church will, until the end of time, remain essentially what she is.  The indefectibility of the Church requires that at least a remnant of the Church will exist until the end of the world, and that a true pope will never authoritatively teach error to the entire Church.  It does not exclude antipopes posing as popes (as we’ve had numerous times in the past, even in Rome) or a counterfeit sect that reduces the adherents of the true Catholic Church to a remnant in the last days.  This is precisely what is predicted to occur in the last days and what happened during the Arian crisis.   
St. Athanasius: "Even if Catholics faithful to tradition are reduced to a handful, they are the ones who are the true Church of Jesus Christ."
Further, it should be noted that the Church has defined that heretics are the gates of Hell which Our Lord mentioned in Matthew 16! 
Pope Vigilius, Second Council of Constantinople, 553: “… we bear in mind what was promised about the holy Church and Him who said the gates of Hell will not prevail against it (by these we understand the death-dealing tongues of heretics)…”3 
Pope St. Leo IX, Sept. 2, 1053: “The holy Church built upon a rock, that is Christ, and upon Peter… because by the gates of Hell, that is, by the disputations of heretics which lead the vain to destruction, it would never be overcome.”4 
St. Thomas Aquinas (+1262): “Wisdom may fill the hearts of the faithful, and put to silence the dread folly of heretics, fittingly referred to as the gates of Hell.”5 (Intro. To Catena Aurea.) 

Notice that heretics are the gates of Hell.  Heretics are not members of the Church.  That’s why a heretic could never be a pope.  The gates of Hell (heretics) could never have authority over the Church of Christ.  It’s not those who expose the heretical Vatican II antipopes who are asserting that the gates of Hell have prevailed against the Church; it’s those who obstinately defend them as popes, even though they can clearly be proven to be manifest heretics. 

Pope Innocent III, Eius exemplo, Dec. 18, 1208: “By the heart we believe and by the mouth we confess the one Church, not of heretics, but the Holy Roman, Catholic, and Apostolic Church outside of which we believe that no one is saved.”

St. Francis De Sales (17th century), Doctor of the Church, The Catholic Controversy, pp. 305-306:  "Now when he [the Pope] is explicitly a heretic, he falls ipso facto from his dignity and out of the Church..."   

There is not one teaching of the Catholic Church that can be quoted which is contrary to the fact that there is presently a counterfeit sect which has reduced the true Catholic Church to a remnant in the days of the Great Apostasy, which is presided over by antipopes who have falsely posed as popes.  Those who assert that the Vatican II sect is the Catholic Church assert that the Catholic Church officially endorses false religions and false doctrines.  This is impossible and would mean that the gates of Hell have prevailed against the Catholic Church. 

question for you, do you agree with Francis that we shouldn't convert the orthodox to the Catholic faith? yes or no?  do you agree that the Church has taught when a pope is a heretic he is outside the church? yes or no?

ok, guy
OK king of cut and paste, if the institutional  Church that is in union with the Pope no longer is in Rome, where is it?

If the Church still exist in it's four theological marks (One. Holy Catholic, Apostolic) and still contains the historical marks as well, you should be able to point out where it is today. Otherwise you preaching a Protestantized version of some unscriptural invisible church.

As for whenever Francis states his personal  liberal opinions, I take them for what they are. But if he ever speaks ex cathedra opposing Church doctrine or dogma, then we have a problem. But the problem needs to be dealt through ecclesiastical law not some group of sedevacantists intepretating doctrine and taking matter into their own hands.

As Salza correctly states on his The Errors of Sedevacantism and Ecclesiastical Law ;

Thus, even if Sedevacantists argue, for example, that Cardinal Ratzinger was self-expelled
before his papal election for heresy (often pointing to some of his controversial writings as a
private theologian), the Sedevacantists are still subject to his jurisdiction as Pope, which is both
valid and licit under the Church’s ecclesiastical law.[/b] By withdrawing submission from the Holy
Father and the faithful in communion with him, Sedevacantists are schismatic and hence
automatically excommunicated from the Church under both Divine and ecclesiastical law (canon
1325, par. 2).

In summary, ecclesiastical law presumes we have a valid Pope unless the Church formally
declares otherwise[/b]. These ecclesiastical provisions serve the Divine Law and the Church’s unicity
and indefectibility
. They also reflect the wisdom of the Church which recognizes that determining
formal heresy is a sensitive matter requiring great caution and prudence – especially when dealing
with a claimant to the papal throne. To be a formal heretic, one must willfully and pertinaciously
deny or doubt a dogma of the Faith
. If St. Paul formally and publicly rebuked St. Peter for a
disciplinary matter (Gal 2:11-12), how much more formal and public would the investigation of a
Pope need to be for a doctrinal matter, and one whose outcome determines the validity of his
office! As with St. Peter, the reigning Pope must be formally confronted with his errors by
legitimate authority, and given time to respond before any offense can be asserted. As we have
seen, the Church’s ecclesiastical law mandates the requirements for this procedure.


http://www.scripturecatholic.com/feature-articles/Feature_-_The_Errors_of_Sedevacantism.pdf
Sancte Michael Archangele, defende nos in proelio, contra nequitiam et insidias diaboli esto praesidium.

Offline sedevacantist

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 701
Re: SSPX expels Bishop Williamson
« Reply #395 on: February 10, 2016, 09:57:06 PM »
you write
"Is that how you treat all converts?  I want to become a true Roman Catholic and learn the hidden mysteries.  Where can I find a genuine church?"

I don't believe you, just the post before you wrote that Romans teaches against the sedevacantist position, chapter and verse.





Offline Mor Ephrem

  • A highly skilled and trained Freudian feminist slut
  • Section Moderator
  • Hypatos
  • *****
  • Posts: 36,131
  • Σφάλμα μεγάλο
    • OrthodoxChristianity.net
  • Faith: Mercenary Freudianism
  • Jurisdiction: Texas Feminist Coptic
Re: SSPX expels Bishop Williamson
« Reply #396 on: February 10, 2016, 11:10:14 PM »
you write
"Is that how you treat all converts?  I want to become a true Roman Catholic and learn the hidden mysteries.  Where can I find a genuine church?"

I don't believe you, just the post before you wrote that Romans teaches against the sedevacantist position, chapter and verse.

Why are you pushing me away from the true Church?  Is this like converting to Judaism where the rabbi discourages you so many times before accepting you? 
Quote
Person.  Woman.  Man.  Camera.  TV.

Quote
Oh you Greeks, you are all dumb!

An Athonite

Offline sedevacantist

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 701
Re: SSPX expels Bishop Williamson
« Reply #397 on: February 11, 2016, 07:10:03 PM »
you write
"Is that how you treat all converts?  I want to become a true Roman Catholic and learn the hidden mysteries.  Where can I find a genuine church?"

I don't believe you, just the post before you wrote that Romans teaches against the sedevacantist position, chapter and verse.

Why are you pushing me away from the true Church?  Is this like converting to Judaism where the rabbi discourages you so many times before accepting you?
I'm not pushing you away from anything, you said Romans disproves sedevacantism, chapter and verse

Offline Mor Ephrem

  • A highly skilled and trained Freudian feminist slut
  • Section Moderator
  • Hypatos
  • *****
  • Posts: 36,131
  • Σφάλμα μεγάλο
    • OrthodoxChristianity.net
  • Faith: Mercenary Freudianism
  • Jurisdiction: Texas Feminist Coptic
Re: SSPX expels Bishop Williamson
« Reply #398 on: February 11, 2016, 08:48:21 PM »
you write
"Is that how you treat all converts?  I want to become a true Roman Catholic and learn the hidden mysteries.  Where can I find a genuine church?"

I don't believe you, just the post before you wrote that Romans teaches against the sedevacantist position, chapter and verse.

Why are you pushing me away from the true Church?  Is this like converting to Judaism where the rabbi discourages you so many times before accepting you?
I'm not pushing you away from anything, you said Romans disproves sedevacantism, chapter and verse

I repent.  I even tried to find a church where I could receive true ashes yesterday, but without your help it was hard, so I just burned a Novus Ordo missalette and self-ashed. 
Quote
Person.  Woman.  Man.  Camera.  TV.

Quote
Oh you Greeks, you are all dumb!

An Athonite

Offline sedevacantist

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 701
Re: SSPX expels Bishop Williamson
« Reply #399 on: February 11, 2016, 09:43:02 PM »
And not for nothing, but who are the Jews or anyone else to dictate to the Church who they can keep as Bishops or lift excommunications? These are the very same people that reject the divinity of Christ altogether.

Maybe they're just shrewd and taking advantage of the fact that Abp Lefebvre dictated to Rome who he was going to ordain as bishops, what excommunications were of no effect, when "ecclesia supplet" does and does not apply, etc.  If the "true" Catholics don't respect their Pope or their Church, why should the Jews?  That Bp Williamson is a rather strange fellow just makes it look less unreasonable.
Regardless how they or any other nonCatholics feel about what went down between SSPX and Rome, it's not their place to influence it either way. Like I said, we don't get involved in their Synagogues and Temples in the midst of their squabbles about what jew should be held in high standard or who the "real jews" are. that is none of our business.

As for SSPX , they're in schism and need to work out their own problems with the Vatican without no interference from anyone else to settle their differences.

I'm sure you can relate to this. ;)
schism if the Vatican was catholic,since it's not there's no schism
Says the  guy with the  pope-less faith.

I guess the gates of hell finally prevailed eh?



No, indefectibility (the promise of Christ to always be with His Church, and that the gates of Hell will not prevail against it) means that the Church will, until the end of time, remain essentially what she is.  The indefectibility of the Church requires that at least a remnant of the Church will exist until the end of the world, and that a true pope will never authoritatively teach error to the entire Church.  It does not exclude antipopes posing as popes (as we’ve had numerous times in the past, even in Rome) or a counterfeit sect that reduces the adherents of the true Catholic Church to a remnant in the last days.  This is precisely what is predicted to occur in the last days and what happened during the Arian crisis.   
St. Athanasius: "Even if Catholics faithful to tradition are reduced to a handful, they are the ones who are the true Church of Jesus Christ."
Further, it should be noted that the Church has defined that heretics are the gates of Hell which Our Lord mentioned in Matthew 16! 
Pope Vigilius, Second Council of Constantinople, 553: “… we bear in mind what was promised about the holy Church and Him who said the gates of Hell will not prevail against it (by these we understand the death-dealing tongues of heretics)…”3 
Pope St. Leo IX, Sept. 2, 1053: “The holy Church built upon a rock, that is Christ, and upon Peter… because by the gates of Hell, that is, by the disputations of heretics which lead the vain to destruction, it would never be overcome.”4 
St. Thomas Aquinas (+1262): “Wisdom may fill the hearts of the faithful, and put to silence the dread folly of heretics, fittingly referred to as the gates of Hell.”5 (Intro. To Catena Aurea.) 

Notice that heretics are the gates of Hell.  Heretics are not members of the Church.  That’s why a heretic could never be a pope.  The gates of Hell (heretics) could never have authority over the Church of Christ.  It’s not those who expose the heretical Vatican II antipopes who are asserting that the gates of Hell have prevailed against the Church; it’s those who obstinately defend them as popes, even though they can clearly be proven to be manifest heretics. 

Pope Innocent III, Eius exemplo, Dec. 18, 1208: “By the heart we believe and by the mouth we confess the one Church, not of heretics, but the Holy Roman, Catholic, and Apostolic Church outside of which we believe that no one is saved.”

St. Francis De Sales (17th century), Doctor of the Church, The Catholic Controversy, pp. 305-306:  "Now when he [the Pope] is explicitly a heretic, he falls ipso facto from his dignity and out of the Church..."   

There is not one teaching of the Catholic Church that can be quoted which is contrary to the fact that there is presently a counterfeit sect which has reduced the true Catholic Church to a remnant in the days of the Great Apostasy, which is presided over by antipopes who have falsely posed as popes.  Those who assert that the Vatican II sect is the Catholic Church assert that the Catholic Church officially endorses false religions and false doctrines.  This is impossible and would mean that the gates of Hell have prevailed against the Catholic Church. 

question for you, do you agree with Francis that we shouldn't convert the orthodox to the Catholic faith? yes or no?  do you agree that the Church has taught when a pope is a heretic he is outside the church? yes or no?

ok, guy
OK king of cut and paste, if the institutional  Church that is in union with the Pope no longer is in Rome, where is it?

If the Church still exist in it's four theological marks (One. Holy Catholic, Apostolic) and still contains the historical marks as well, you should be able to point out where it is today. Otherwise you preaching a Protestantized version of some unscriptural invisible church.

As for whenever Francis states his personal  liberal opinions, I take them for what they are. But if he ever speaks ex cathedra opposing Church doctrine or dogma, then we have a problem. But the problem needs to be dealt through ecclesiastical law not some group of sedevacantists intepretating doctrine and taking matter into their own hands.

As Salza correctly states on his The Errors of Sedevacantism and Ecclesiastical Law ;

Thus, even if Sedevacantists argue, for example, that Cardinal Ratzinger was self-expelled
before his papal election for heresy (often pointing to some of his controversial writings as a
private theologian), the Sedevacantists are still subject to his jurisdiction as Pope, which is both
valid and licit under the Church’s ecclesiastical law.[/b] By withdrawing submission from the Holy
Father and the faithful in communion with him, Sedevacantists are schismatic and hence
automatically excommunicated from the Church under both Divine and ecclesiastical law (canon
1325, par. 2).

In summary, ecclesiastical law presumes we have a valid Pope unless the Church formally
declares otherwise[/b]. These ecclesiastical provisions serve the Divine Law and the Church’s unicity
and indefectibility
. They also reflect the wisdom of the Church which recognizes that determining
formal heresy is a sensitive matter requiring great caution and prudence – especially when dealing
with a claimant to the papal throne. To be a formal heretic, one must willfully and pertinaciously
deny or doubt a dogma of the Faith
. If St. Paul formally and publicly rebuked St. Peter for a
disciplinary matter (Gal 2:11-12), how much more formal and public would the investigation of a
Pope ed to be for a doctrinal matter, and one whose outcome determines the validity of his
office! As with St. Peter, the reigning Pope must be formally confronted with his errors by
legitimate authority, and given time to respond before any offense can be asserted. As we have
seen, the Church’s ecclesiastical law mandates the requirements for this procedure.
c?


http://www.scripturecatholic.com/feature-articles/Feature_-_The_Errors_of_Sedevacantism.pdf
you call me king of cut and paste only to cut and paste salza? lol
show me where in catholic teaching that we need an ex cathedra statement in order to figure out a pope is a heretic?
Salza contradicts himself

Salza, “The Errors of Sedevacantism and Ecclesiastical Law,” The Remnant: “Sedevacantists correctly maintain that Divine Law expels a formal heretic from the Church without further declaration. They point to canon 188, par. 4 of the 1917 Code which says that “all offices whatsoever fall vacant and without any declaration if the cleric…publicly defects from the Catholic Faith.”

Offline Charles Martel

  • BANNED for rules violations
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,805
Re: SSPX expels Bishop Williamson
« Reply #400 on: February 13, 2016, 11:08:02 AM »
I'll answer your questions sede when you answer mine first.

If the chair of Peter is empty, then where is this headless Church today?

A bunch  self-proclaimed "real" catholics on the internet and a few renegade priests?

Can you with confidence point me to where the Church is and say "there it is!".

Preciate it much. Thx pilgrim.
Sancte Michael Archangele, defende nos in proelio, contra nequitiam et insidias diaboli esto praesidium.

Offline sedevacantist

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 701
Re: SSPX expels Bishop Williamson
« Reply #401 on: February 13, 2016, 06:56:33 PM »
I'll answer your questions sede when you answer mine first.

If the chair of Peter is empty, then where is this headless Church today?

A bunch  self-proclaimed "real" catholics on the internet and a few renegade priests?

Can you with confidence point me to where the Church is and say "there it is!".

Preciate it much. Thx pilgrim.
on the internet? what are you talking about?  The Sspx and Cmri for starters. Archbishop Lefebvre consecrated 4 bishops out of necessity. Do you not know that the apostasy was predicted by past popes? I can tell you with full confidence where the Church isn't,that would be the Vatican.
do you agree with this  vatican 2 sect statement, I'll take a simple yes or no
Vatican II document,
Lumen Gentium
# 15:
“For several reasons the Church recognizes that it is joined to
those who
, though baptized and so honoured with the
Christian name, do not profess the
faith in its entirety or do not
preserve communion under the successor of St. Peter
.”

Offline Charles Martel

  • BANNED for rules violations
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,805
Re: SSPX expels Bishop Williamson
« Reply #402 on: February 16, 2016, 06:31:02 PM »
Quote
on the internet?
Is that an answer?

Quote
what are you talking about?

Quote
OK king of cut and paste, if the institutional  Church that is in union with the Pope no longer is in Rome, where is it?

If the Church still exist in it's four theological marks (One. Holy Catholic, Apostolic) and still contains the historical marks as well, you should be able to point out where it is today. Otherwise you preaching a Protestantized version of some unscriptural invisible church.

Quote
The Sspx and Cmri for starters
That's your opinion.

Quote
Archbishop Lefebvre consecrated 4 bishops out of necessity.
That got him excommunicated.

Quote
Do you not know that the apostasy was predicted by past popes?
Which ones?

Quote
I can tell you with full confidence where the Church isn't,that would be the Vatican.
Again, your opinion. But a lot of people since Martin Luther would agree with you.

Quote
do you agree with this  vatican 2 sect statement, I'll take a simple yes or no
Vatican II document,
Lumen Gentium
# 15:
“For several reasons the Church recognizes that it is joined to
those who
, though baptized and so honoured with the
Christian name, do not profess the
faith in its entirety or do not
preserve communion under the successor of St. Peter
It's not a simple yes and no question  the way it's contextualized. IMO.
Sancte Michael Archangele, defende nos in proelio, contra nequitiam et insidias diaboli esto praesidium.

Offline sedevacantist

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 701
Re: SSPX expels Bishop Williamson
« Reply #403 on: February 17, 2016, 01:38:10 AM »
Quote
on the internet?
Is that an answer?

Quote
"
no , just dumbfounded at your  claim "A bunch  self-proclaimed "real" catholics on the internet "

Offline sedevacantist

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 701
Re: SSPX expels Bishop Williamson
« Reply #404 on: February 17, 2016, 01:41:44 AM »
Quote
Archbishop Lefebvre consecrated 4 bishops out of necessity.
That got him excommunicated.

Quote


yes I know, excommunicated from your false sect, tell me what makes you think  you are  a traditional catholic? on what grounds?