Author Topic: SSPX expels Bishop Williamson  (Read 38587 times)

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Offline sedevacantist

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Re: SSPX expels Bishop Williamson
« Reply #270 on: January 13, 2016, 09:22:40 PM »
Oh yes the Day of Judgment is a winnowing between those who did and did not concern themselves with the Grassy Knoll.
nope, but you folks are insulting me ,calling me a crank because I'm not a sheeple..you'll be judged for being outside the true church

A church without a see is not a church. So unless your claim is that you yourself are the Divine Judge, I'm not concerned.
we have over 1900 years of the magisterium to follow

St. Athanasius: "Even if Catholics faithful to tradition are reduced to a handful, they are the ones who are the true Church of Jesus Christ."
But what if the term 'Catholic' doesn't apply to your sect?
what sect are you referring to? I'm a Roman Catholic..I just hold the sedevacantist position and reject the Vatican 2 sect.

Dude!!! I didn't know that had a sedevacantist!  What's it like, bro?
I don't understand you bro, write in English please
DUDE!!!!!!!! What's it like being a sedevacantist? I've never met one before.
you believe Francis is Catholic? really? he's protecting the true faith? tell me why I should be ok with him praying with jews in synagogues for starters, why I should be ok with him esteeming muslims, he can't judge gays etc...I was like you when I didn't take a real interest in the issue but if you're on this site I can assume you actually looked into these subjects?

Yes, I think he is a Catholic, and I believe he is the Pope. But what does my opinion on this topic matter, since I am don't have the authority to judge the status of the Pope? I will agree, however, that Pope Francis is often imprudent in his words and deeds and I look forward to a Pope more inline with traditional Catholicism.
I'm not saying you will lose your salvation for being wrong on this issue so I won't spend too much time with this , but I hope as a catholic you are warning the orthodox they risk losing salvation for being outside the Catholic Church...do you believe in no salvation outside the Church?
What makes you think you can convince us by citing persons only you claim as authorities?
It won't be by citing persons only I claim as authorities, I'm telling a catholic if he knows basic catholic teaching, it's a dogma that non catholics go to hell, should I pretend this dogma doesn't exist, just go along to get along, don't warn orthodox Christians only to see them in hellfire for eternity? or should I warn them because I do love my fellow humans and want them to have eternal salvation

Offline sedevacantist

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Re: SSPX expels Bishop Williamson
« Reply #271 on: January 13, 2016, 09:31:50 PM »
I certainly don't apply revisionism to other things. Don't call me a hypocrite.

I do think Holocaust revisionism is as bad as denial. They aren't different.

If this kind of thing is now normal on the forum or in the church, I have no business being here.
do you believe 6 million jews died during the holocaust?
Yes. Do you?

Do we really need to know an answer?

We do know the answer and the answer is yes. The only people saying otherwise on the professional level are Neo-Nazis and their sympathizers.
please tell me you're joking..this is a joke right, you people seem to   love being conned but at the end of the day being wrong on this issue doesn't mean the loss of your soul, rejecting the Church of Christ is another matter, but it puzzles me with all the info available to us in this day and age people still believe 6 million jews were murdered, maybe Oswald killed Kennedy alone or next you will tell me Bin Laden was responsible for 911...please say it isn't so

I think in "all the info available today" you must be including anything anybody posts online or in pamphlets. There are uncountable sources of false information and confusing conspiracies. Please don't be a

[Edited to add:] Any information that comes with an axe to grind or a hateful attitude attached to it should be suspect. If some source is "proving" that the Jewish people do not deserve our sympathy, then they are automatically on the side of untruth, numbers aside.
you believe the jews need our sympathy? really? the Christ killers? if you fell for the 6 million number you are a victim, for starters the 6 million number was circulating in newspapers long before world war 2, if you care about the issue you should do more research

Technically, the Romans killed Jesus. Tell me what is worse, those who plead for Jesus' death honestly believing him to be a devilish heretic, or the Roman prefect who believed a man to be innocent but murdered him because of political expediency? I would most certainly say the latter, but I don't go around holding Italians or Frenchmen responsible for Christ's death. Furthermore, did not Christ himself forgive his executors and those who wished it upon him before he gave his last breath?

Tell me, what will you cite next? The Protocols of Zion? Your ideas are ridiculous and foolish.
no you are foolish , you don't know what u r babbling about, I guess you would censure John Chrysostom for not being politically correct?

John Chrysostom, Against the Jews.  Homily 1

But do not be surprised that I called the Jews pitiable. They really are pitiable and miserable. When so many blessings from heaven came into their hands, they thrust them aside and were at great pains to reject them. The morning Sun of Justice arose for them, but they thrust aside its rays and still sit in darkness. We, who were nurtured by darkness, drew the light to ourselves and were freed from the gloom of their error. They were the branches of that holy root, but those branches were broken. We had no share in the root, but we did reap the fruit of godliness. From their childhood they read the prophets, but they crucified him whom the prophets had foretold. We did not hear the divine prophecies but we did worship him of whom they prophesied. And so they are pitiful because they rejected the blessings which were sent to them, while others seized hold of these blessing and drew them to themselves. Although those Jews had been called to the adoption of sons, they fell to kinship with dogs; we who were dogs received the strength, through God's grace, to put aside the irrational nature which was ours and to rise to the honor of sons. How do I prove this? Christ said: "It is no fair to take the children's bread and to cast it to the dogs". Christ was speaking to the Canaanite woman when He called the Jews children and the Gentiles dogs

But see how thereafter the order was changed about: they became dogs, and we became the children. Paul said of the Jews: "Beware of the dogs, beware of the evil workers, beware of the mutilation. For we are the circumcision". Do you see how those who at first were children became dogs? Do you wish to find out how we, who at first were dogs, became children? "But to as many as received him, he gave the power of becoming sons of God".

Although such beasts are unfit for work, they are fit for killing. And this is what happened to the Jews: while they were making themselves unfit for work, they grew fit for slaughter. This is why Christ said: "But as for these my enemies, who did not want me to be king over them, bring them here and slay them". You Jews should have fasted then, when drunkenness was doing those terrible things to you, when your gluttony was giving birth to your ungodliness-not now. Now your fasting is untimely and an abomination. Who said so? Isaiah himself when he called out in a loud voice: "I did not choose this fast, say the Lord". Why? "You quarrel and squabble when you fast and strike those subject to you with your fists". But if you fasting was an abomination when you were striking your fellow slaves, does it become acceptable now that you have slain your Master? How could that be right?
Dude!!! What's it like being an anti-semite?

so Saint John Chrysostom is an anti semite? what's it like to be a false catholic dude?

Offline sedevacantist

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Re: SSPX expels Bishop Williamson
« Reply #272 on: January 13, 2016, 09:34:18 PM »
I certainly don't apply revisionism to other things. Don't call me a hypocrite.

I do think Holocaust revisionism is as bad as denial. They aren't different.

If this kind of thing is now normal on the forum or in the church, I have no business being here.
do you believe 6 million jews died during the holocaust?
Yes. Do you?

Do we really need to know an answer?

We do know the answer and the answer is yes. The only people saying otherwise on the professional level are Neo-Nazis and their sympathizers.
please tell me you're joking..this is a joke right, you people seem to   love being conned but at the end of the day being wrong on this issue doesn't mean the loss of your soul, rejecting the Church of Christ is another matter, but it puzzles me with all the info available to us in this day and age people still believe 6 million jews were murdered, maybe Oswald killed Kennedy alone or next you will tell me Bin Laden was responsible for 911...please say it isn't so

I think in "all the info available today" you must be including anything anybody posts online or in pamphlets. There are uncountable sources of false information and confusing conspiracies. Please don't be a

[Edited to add:] Any information that comes with an axe to grind or a hateful attitude attached to it should be suspect. If some source is "proving" that the Jewish people do not deserve our sympathy, then they are automatically on the side of untruth, numbers aside.
you believe the jews need our sympathy? really? the Christ killers? if you fell for the 6 million number you are a victim, for starters the 6 million number was circulating in newspapers long before world war 2, if you care about the issue you should do more research

Technically, the Romans killed Jesus. Tell me what is worse, those who plead for Jesus' death honestly believing him to be a devilish heretic, or the Roman prefect who believed a man to be innocent but murdered him because of political expediency? I would most certainly say the latter, but I don't go around holding Italians or Frenchmen responsible for Christ's death. Furthermore, did not Christ himself forgive his executors and those who wished it upon him before he gave his last breath?

Tell me, what will you cite next? The Protocols of Zion? Your ideas are ridiculous and foolish.
no you are foolish , you don't know what u r babbling about, I guess you would censure John Chrysostom for not being politically correct?

John Chrysostom, Against the Jews.  Homily 1

But do not be surprised that I called the Jews pitiable. They really are pitiable and miserable. When so many blessings from heaven came into their hands, they thrust them aside and were at great pains to reject them. The morning Sun of Justice arose for them, but they thrust aside its rays and still sit in darkness. We, who were nurtured by darkness, drew the light to ourselves and were freed from the gloom of their error. They were the branches of that holy root, but those branches were broken. We had no share in the root, but we did reap the fruit of godliness. From their childhood they read the prophets, but they crucified him whom the prophets had foretold. We did not hear the divine prophecies but we did worship him of whom they prophesied. And so they are pitiful because they rejected the blessings which were sent to them, while others seized hold of these blessing and drew them to themselves. Although those Jews had been called to the adoption of sons, they fell to kinship with dogs; we who were dogs received the strength, through God's grace, to put aside the irrational nature which was ours and to rise to the honor of sons. How do I prove this? Christ said: "It is no fair to take the children's bread and to cast it to the dogs". Christ was speaking to the Canaanite woman when He called the Jews children and the Gentiles dogs

But see how thereafter the order was changed about: they became dogs, and we became the children. Paul said of the Jews: "Beware of the dogs, beware of the evil workers, beware of the mutilation. For we are the circumcision". Do you see how those who at first were children became dogs? Do you wish to find out how we, who at first were dogs, became children? "But to as many as received him, he gave the power of becoming sons of God".

Although such beasts are unfit for work, they are fit for killing. And this is what happened to the Jews: while they were making themselves unfit for work, they grew fit for slaughter. This is why Christ said: "But as for these my enemies, who did not want me to be king over them, bring them here and slay them". You Jews should have fasted then, when drunkenness was doing those terrible things to you, when your gluttony was giving birth to your ungodliness-not now. Now your fasting is untimely and an abomination. Who said so? Isaiah himself when he called out in a loud voice: "I did not choose this fast, say the Lord". Why? "You quarrel and squabble when you fast and strike those subject to you with your fists". But if you fasting was an abomination when you were striking your fellow slaves, does it become acceptable now that you have slain your Master? How could that be right?

Hopefully this won't change the topic (we can never get enough Papcy-related talk around here), but I want to note that everything St. John is saying is both quoted from and in the tenor of the Scriptures. He's giving a synopsis of the biblical position on the subject, so to speak; certainly of the official Christian position. St. John is saying nothing original, and I hope this quote of yours isn't what's given you the impression he was a special anti-Semite and friend to your cause.
he's not an anti-Semite, he was  anti-Judaism...what cause are you babbling about, the only cause I care for is the truth

Offline Volnutt

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Re: SSPX expels Bishop Williamson
« Reply #273 on: January 13, 2016, 09:52:01 PM »
Oh yes the Day of Judgment is a winnowing between those who did and did not concern themselves with the Grassy Knoll.
nope, but you folks are insulting me ,calling me a crank because I'm not a sheeple..you'll be judged for being outside the true church

A church without a see is not a church. So unless your claim is that you yourself are the Divine Judge, I'm not concerned.
we have over 1900 years of the magisterium to follow

St. Athanasius: "Even if Catholics faithful to tradition are reduced to a handful, they are the ones who are the true Church of Jesus Christ."

You didn't really address Porter's point the way I would have if I were you, instead preferring to liken yourself to some sort of proto-Protestant.
I'm a proto-protestant because I quoted St Athanasius? what do you consider yourself?

I am Orthodox. 

I do not consider you a proto-Protestant because you quoted St Athanasius.  I consider you a proto-Protestant because you cavalierly dismiss what you would impose on us and appeal to "over 1900 years of magisterium to follow" to justify yourself.
I'll repeat myself, the orthodox are not wrong simply for rejecting Rome, they are wrong because they had no justification to do so, Rome was not in heresy....the fact the Church has no true pope is a sad reality, what do you want me to do about it

How about... recognize that sedevacantism is a mockery of Catholic theology and make a different life choice?
no,it's time you wake up and  do more research into what I'm writing you
In the Gospel, Jesus Christ not only informs us that in the last days the true faith would hardly be found on the Earth, but that “in the holy place” itself there will be “the abomination of desolation” (Mt. 24:15), and a deception so profound that, if it were possible, even the elect would be deceived (Mt. 24:24).  St. Paul says that the man of sin will sit “in the temple of God” (2 Thess. 2:4).  The Apocalypse describes in detail the Whore of Babylon, a false bride (i.e. a Counter Church) which arises in the last days in the city of seven hills (Rome) and which spreads spiritual fornication all over the Earth.  The fact that the last days are characterized by a spiritual deception intending to ensnare Catholics proves, rather than disproves, the authenticity of the Catholic Church



In 1903, Pope St. Pius X thought that he might be seeing the beginning of the evils which will fully come to pass in the last days. 
Pope St. Pius X, E Supremi (# 5), Oct. 4, 1903: “… there is good reason to fear lest this great perversity may be as it were a foretaste, and perhaps the beginning of those evils which are reserved for the last days; and that there may already be in the world the ‘Son of Perdition’ of whom the Apostle speaks (2 Thess. 2:3).”1 
The New Testament tells us that this deception will happen in the very heart of the Church’s physical structures, in “the Temple of God” (2 Thess. 2:4) and “in the holy place” (Mt. 24:15).  It will arise because people receive not the love of the truth (2 Thessalonians 2:10). 
In 2 Thessalonians 2, St. Paul speaks of the last days being characterized by a great apostasy that will be the worst ever – even worse than was experienced in the Arian crisis in the 4th century, in which an authentically Catholic priest was hardly to be found. 
Fr. William Jurgens: “At one point in the Church’s history, only a few years before Gregory’s [Nazianz] present preaching (A.D. 380), perhaps the number of Catholic bishops in possession of sees, as opposed to Arian bishops in possession of sees, was no greater than something between 1% and 3% of the total.  Had doctrine been determined by popularity, today we should all be deniers of Christ and opponents of the Spirit.”2   
Fr. William Jurgens: “In the time of the Emperor Valens (4th century), Basil was virtually the only orthodox Bishop in all the East who succeeded in retaining charge of his see… If it has no other importance for modern man, a knowledge of the history of Arianism should demonstrate at least that the Catholic Church takes no account of popularity and numbers in shaping and maintaining doctrine: else, we should long since have had to abandon Basil and Hilary and Athanasius and Liberius and Ossius and call ourselves after Arius.”3   
St. Gregory Nazianz (+380), Against the Arians: “Where are they who revile us for our poverty and pride themselves in their riches?  They who define the Church by numbers and scorn the little flock?”4 
If the Arian crisis – just a prelude to the Great Apostasy – was this extensive, how extensive will the Great Apostasy foretold by Our Lord and Saint Paul be?

Valens reigned for 28 years. It's been 58 years since the election of Pope John XXIII. I know that sedevacantists like to play the Left Behind card (well, there's been no Pope for so long because it's almost Armageddon!), but you can't expect to be taken very seriously by outsiders if you do since just about every extremist sect tries to excuse their worldview with that.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2016, 09:53:41 PM by Volnutt »
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline Volnutt

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Re: SSPX expels Bishop Williamson
« Reply #274 on: January 13, 2016, 10:56:04 PM »
I certainly don't apply revisionism to other things. Don't call me a hypocrite.

I do think Holocaust revisionism is as bad as denial. They aren't different.

If this kind of thing is now normal on the forum or in the church, I have no business being here.
do you believe 6 million jews died during the holocaust?
Yes. Do you?

Do we really need to know an answer?

We do know the answer and the answer is yes. The only people saying otherwise on the professional level are Neo-Nazis and their sympathizers.
please tell me you're joking..this is a joke right, you people seem to   love being conned but at the end of the day being wrong on this issue doesn't mean the loss of your soul, rejecting the Church of Christ is another matter, but it puzzles me with all the info available to us in this day and age people still believe 6 million jews were murdered, maybe Oswald killed Kennedy alone or next you will tell me Bin Laden was responsible for 911...please say it isn't so

I think in "all the info available today" you must be including anything anybody posts online or in pamphlets. There are uncountable sources of false information and confusing conspiracies. Please don't be a

[Edited to add:] Any information that comes with an axe to grind or a hateful attitude attached to it should be suspect. If some source is "proving" that the Jewish people do not deserve our sympathy, then they are automatically on the side of untruth, numbers aside.
you believe the jews need our sympathy? really? the Christ killers? if you fell for the 6 million number you are a victim, for starters the 6 million number was circulating in newspapers long before world war 2, if you care about the issue you should do more research

Technically, the Romans killed Jesus. Tell me what is worse, those who plead for Jesus' death honestly believing him to be a devilish heretic, or the Roman prefect who believed a man to be innocent but murdered him because of political expediency? I would most certainly say the latter, but I don't go around holding Italians or Frenchmen responsible for Christ's death. Furthermore, did not Christ himself forgive his executors and those who wished it upon him before he gave his last breath?

Tell me, what will you cite next? The Protocols of Zion? Your ideas are ridiculous and foolish.
no you are foolish , you don't know what u r babbling about, I guess you would censure John Chrysostom for not being politically correct?

John Chrysostom, Against the Jews.  Homily 1

But do not be surprised that I called the Jews pitiable. They really are pitiable and miserable. When so many blessings from heaven came into their hands, they thrust them aside and were at great pains to reject them. The morning Sun of Justice arose for them, but they thrust aside its rays and still sit in darkness. We, who were nurtured by darkness, drew the light to ourselves and were freed from the gloom of their error. They were the branches of that holy root, but those branches were broken. We had no share in the root, but we did reap the fruit of godliness. From their childhood they read the prophets, but they crucified him whom the prophets had foretold. We did not hear the divine prophecies but we did worship him of whom they prophesied. And so they are pitiful because they rejected the blessings which were sent to them, while others seized hold of these blessing and drew them to themselves. Although those Jews had been called to the adoption of sons, they fell to kinship with dogs; we who were dogs received the strength, through God's grace, to put aside the irrational nature which was ours and to rise to the honor of sons. How do I prove this? Christ said: "It is no fair to take the children's bread and to cast it to the dogs". Christ was speaking to the Canaanite woman when He called the Jews children and the Gentiles dogs

But see how thereafter the order was changed about: they became dogs, and we became the children. Paul said of the Jews: "Beware of the dogs, beware of the evil workers, beware of the mutilation. For we are the circumcision". Do you see how those who at first were children became dogs? Do you wish to find out how we, who at first were dogs, became children? "But to as many as received him, he gave the power of becoming sons of God".

Although such beasts are unfit for work, they are fit for killing. And this is what happened to the Jews: while they were making themselves unfit for work, they grew fit for slaughter. This is why Christ said: "But as for these my enemies, who did not want me to be king over them, bring them here and slay them". You Jews should have fasted then, when drunkenness was doing those terrible things to you, when your gluttony was giving birth to your ungodliness-not now. Now your fasting is untimely and an abomination. Who said so? Isaiah himself when he called out in a loud voice: "I did not choose this fast, say the Lord". Why? "You quarrel and squabble when you fast and strike those subject to you with your fists". But if you fasting was an abomination when you were striking your fellow slaves, does it become acceptable now that you have slain your Master? How could that be right?

Hopefully this won't change the topic (we can never get enough Papcy-related talk around here), but I want to note that everything St. John is saying is both quoted from and in the tenor of the Scriptures. He's giving a synopsis of the biblical position on the subject, so to speak; certainly of the official Christian position. St. John is saying nothing original, and I hope this quote of yours isn't what's given you the impression he was a special anti-Semite and friend to your cause.
he's not an anti-Semite, he was  anti-Judaism...what cause are you babbling about, the only cause I care for is the truth

No, he was antisemitic. Anti-Judaism is saying that the Jews are wrong to say that Christ is not the Messiah. Calling them dogs and swine who are fit to be killed and saying that those from 300 years later are guilty of deicide is antisemitic.
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline Rohzek

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Re: SSPX expels Bishop Williamson
« Reply #275 on: January 14, 2016, 01:09:02 AM »
I certainly don't apply revisionism to other things. Don't call me a hypocrite.

I do think Holocaust revisionism is as bad as denial. They aren't different.

If this kind of thing is now normal on the forum or in the church, I have no business being here.
do you believe 6 million jews died during the holocaust?
Yes. Do you?

Do we really need to know an answer?

We do know the answer and the answer is yes. The only people saying otherwise on the professional level are Neo-Nazis and their sympathizers.
please tell me you're joking..this is a joke right, you people seem to   love being conned but at the end of the day being wrong on this issue doesn't mean the loss of your soul, rejecting the Church of Christ is another matter, but it puzzles me with all the info available to us in this day and age people still believe 6 million jews were murdered, maybe Oswald killed Kennedy alone or next you will tell me Bin Laden was responsible for 911...please say it isn't so

I think in "all the info available today" you must be including anything anybody posts online or in pamphlets. There are uncountable sources of false information and confusing conspiracies. Please don't be a

[Edited to add:] Any information that comes with an axe to grind or a hateful attitude attached to it should be suspect. If some source is "proving" that the Jewish people do not deserve our sympathy, then they are automatically on the side of untruth, numbers aside.
you believe the jews need our sympathy? really? the Christ killers? if you fell for the 6 million number you are a victim, for starters the 6 million number was circulating in newspapers long before world war 2, if you care about the issue you should do more research

Technically, the Romans killed Jesus. Tell me what is worse, those who plead for Jesus' death honestly believing him to be a devilish heretic, or the Roman prefect who believed a man to be innocent but murdered him because of political expediency? I would most certainly say the latter, but I don't go around holding Italians or Frenchmen responsible for Christ's death. Furthermore, did not Christ himself forgive his executors and those who wished it upon him before he gave his last breath?

Tell me, what will you cite next? The Protocols of Zion? Your ideas are ridiculous and foolish.
no you are foolish , you don't know what u r babbling about, I guess you would censure John Chrysostom for not being politically correct?

John Chrysostom, Against the Jews.  Homily 1

But do not be surprised that I called the Jews pitiable. They really are pitiable and miserable. When so many blessings from heaven came into their hands, they thrust them aside and were at great pains to reject them. The morning Sun of Justice arose for them, but they thrust aside its rays and still sit in darkness. We, who were nurtured by darkness, drew the light to ourselves and were freed from the gloom of their error. They were the branches of that holy root, but those branches were broken. We had no share in the root, but we did reap the fruit of godliness. From their childhood they read the prophets, but they crucified him whom the prophets had foretold. We did not hear the divine prophecies but we did worship him of whom they prophesied. And so they are pitiful because they rejected the blessings which were sent to them, while others seized hold of these blessing and drew them to themselves. Although those Jews had been called to the adoption of sons, they fell to kinship with dogs; we who were dogs received the strength, through God's grace, to put aside the irrational nature which was ours and to rise to the honor of sons. How do I prove this? Christ said: "It is no fair to take the children's bread and to cast it to the dogs". Christ was speaking to the Canaanite woman when He called the Jews children and the Gentiles dogs

But see how thereafter the order was changed about: they became dogs, and we became the children. Paul said of the Jews: "Beware of the dogs, beware of the evil workers, beware of the mutilation. For we are the circumcision". Do you see how those who at first were children became dogs? Do you wish to find out how we, who at first were dogs, became children? "But to as many as received him, he gave the power of becoming sons of God".

Although such beasts are unfit for work, they are fit for killing. And this is what happened to the Jews: while they were making themselves unfit for work, they grew fit for slaughter. This is why Christ said: "But as for these my enemies, who did not want me to be king over them, bring them here and slay them". You Jews should have fasted then, when drunkenness was doing those terrible things to you, when your gluttony was giving birth to your ungodliness-not now. Now your fasting is untimely and an abomination. Who said so? Isaiah himself when he called out in a loud voice: "I did not choose this fast, say the Lord". Why? "You quarrel and squabble when you fast and strike those subject to you with your fists". But if you fasting was an abomination when you were striking your fellow slaves, does it become acceptable now that you have slain your Master? How could that be right?
Dude!!! What's it like being an anti-semite?

so Saint John Chrysostom is an anti semite? what's it like to be a false catholic dude?

What's it like to pretend like you know anything because you can cite the century old Catholic Encyclopedia continuously? When I TA'd for undergrad history courses, we automatically failed any student who cited from it because it is notoriously bad and out of date. Your arguments are terrible and your sources are terrible.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2016, 01:10:22 AM by Rohzek »
"Il ne faut imaginer Dieu ni trop bon, ni méchant. La justice est entre l'excès de la clémence et la cruauté, ainsi que les peines finies sont entre l'impunité et les peines éternelles." - Denise Diderot, Pensées philosophiques 1746

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: SSPX expels Bishop Williamson
« Reply #276 on: January 14, 2016, 01:31:07 AM »
Calling the Jews dogs is original. St. Paul certainly doesn't say that.

Assuming that the Jews of St. John's own day were Christ-killers is original. Even assuming that Paul thought that every Jew of His day was specially responsible for deicide, that doesn't translate to the Jews of St. John's day.

You're not seeing the exact quote of St. Paul in St. John's homily? "Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the concision" is Philippians 3:2.

Jews "of St. John's day" is a reading-in of your own.

You don't know what you're talking about, yet not only do you decide summarily to dismiss my explanation, but you make this topic a pet of yours around here, attacking St. John Chrysostom, and by extension his Church, on a regular basis throughout your time here.
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Offline orthonorm

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Re: SSPX expels Bishop Williamson
« Reply #277 on: January 14, 2016, 01:49:51 AM »
Quote
The Society of St Pius X has confirmed that it has expelled the English Bishop Richard Williamson.

Bishop Williamson, 72, one of four men illicitly ordained in 1988 by Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre in Écône, Switzerland, has been a controversial figure, particularly for his views on Jews, who he has called the “enemies of Christ”.
News flash: they are.

Cf. the New Testament

Salvation is only through the Jews. See: all that God has wrought.

Offline orthonorm

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Re: SSPX expels Bishop Williamson
« Reply #278 on: January 14, 2016, 01:51:48 AM »
Is anti-Semitism a cool thing on this board now?
"Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son." -1 John 2:22

That's true of everyone who doesn't believe. Singling out the Jews as though the intervening 2000 years never happened and they're nowadays not more often the persecuted rather than the persecutors is at best pointless and at worse signals certain, shall we say, ulterior motives.

There's a difference between denial and lack of belief.

And if any believe it's only because a Jew did so before they did and more perfectly so.

Christ is a Jew as are the pillars among the saint.

Offline Volnutt

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Re: SSPX expels Bishop Williamson
« Reply #279 on: January 14, 2016, 01:54:33 AM »
Calling the Jews dogs is original. St. Paul certainly doesn't say that.

Assuming that the Jews of St. John's own day were Christ-killers is original. Even assuming that Paul thought that every Jew of His day was specially responsible for deicide, that doesn't translate to the Jews of St. John's day.

You're not seeing the exact quote of St. Paul in St. John's homily? "Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the concision" is Philippians 3:2.

Who is that talking about specifically, though? In context, I'd say that St. Paul is talking about the Judaizers. Not all Jews as it seems St. John is doing.
Jews "of St. John's day" is a reading-in of your own.

Then which Jews are he addressing?

Quote
Now your fasting is untimely and an abomination. Who said so? Isaiah himself when he called out in a loud voice: "I did not choose this fast, say the Lord". Why? "You quarrel and squabble when you fast and strike those subject to you with your fists". But if you fasting was an abomination when you were striking your fellow slaves, does it become acceptable now that you have slain your Master?

Emphasis mine.

You don't know what you're talking about, yet not only do you decide summarily to dismiss my explanation, but you make this topic a pet of yours around here, attacking St. John Chrysostom, and by extension his Church, on a regular basis throughout your time here.

I dismiss your explanation because I think it's crap, though I don't recall attacking Adversus Iudaeos in at least several months. I don't see how attacking one part of the work of a Saint who I otherwise greatly admire translates to attacking the Orthodox Church as a whole. I'm sorry for not realizing that the inerrancy of St. John Chrysostom was an Orthodox dogma.
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Offline orthonorm

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Re: SSPX expels Bishop Williamson
« Reply #280 on: January 14, 2016, 01:56:24 AM »
Is anti-Semitism a cool thing on this board now?
Even you know that quoting Scripture is, for even you do it.

I asked about anti-Semitism. Don't be cutesy.
Don't tell me not to be cutesy. FWIW, I said what I said because Severian did not express anti-Semitism in any form. What he did in citing Scripture was prove a valid point that has nothing to do with anti-Semitism.

You are not cute. Severian exists in context, of which Biro knows. Not everyone has your ability Peter to live as though everything they see has no connection to the past. Severian's comments here are clearly in poor taste at a minimum, and if you know what else he has to say, well Biro isn't so far off.

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Re: SSPX expels Bishop Williamson
« Reply #281 on: January 14, 2016, 01:57:24 AM »
I certainly don't apply revisionism to other things. Don't call me a hypocrite.

I do think Holocaust revisionism is as bad as denial. They aren't different.

If this kind of thing is now normal on the forum or in the church, I have no business being here.
do you believe 6 million jews died during the holocaust?
Yes. Do you?

Do we really need to know an answer?

God bless you!

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Re: SSPX expels Bishop Williamson
« Reply #282 on: January 14, 2016, 02:12:06 AM »
God have mercy on those who turn against his chosen people. That branch which is grafted cannot thrive if it strangles the trunk upon which it depends.

The so called Orientals here might be able to split the hairs they do, but those who are of European descent must practice more sense. Look at how terribly God's chosen suffered under your Churches in the last century.

If you can't repent, at least practice a bit of humility and not boast of your worst in public.

I'll pray for you.

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Re: SSPX expels Bishop Williamson
« Reply #283 on: January 14, 2016, 02:33:10 AM »
To those who believe that St. John Chrysostom was an anti-semite, what are your thoughts on this quote?:

According to Patristics scholars, opposition to any particular view during the late 4th century was conventionally expressed in a manner, utilizing the rhetorical form known as the psogos, whose literary conventions were to vilify opponents in an uncompromising manner; thus, it has been argued that to call Chrysostom an "anti-Semite" is to employ anachronistic terminology in a way incongruous with historical context and record. This does not preclude assertions that Chrysostom's theology was a form of Anti-Jewish supersessionism.
Oh Holy Apostle, St. John, pray for us

Offline orthonorm

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Re: SSPX expels Bishop Williamson
« Reply #284 on: January 14, 2016, 02:55:12 AM »
To those who believe that St. John Chrysostom was an anti-semite, what are your thoughts on this quote?:

According to Patristics scholars, opposition to any particular view during the late 4th century was conventionally expressed in a manner, utilizing the rhetorical form known as the psogos, whose literary conventions were to vilify opponents in an uncompromising manner; thus, it has been argued that to call Chrysostom an "anti-Semite" is to employ anachronistic terminology in a way incongruous with historical context and record. This does not preclude assertions that Chrysostom's theology was a form of Anti-Jewish supersessionism.

Sounds like hateful garbage and that he would get moded here.

You are late to class this with old and argued news.

Talking about the past is always anachronistic and yet we do it nevertheless.

Offline Volnutt

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Re: SSPX expels Bishop Williamson
« Reply #285 on: January 14, 2016, 03:50:46 AM »
To those who believe that St. John Chrysostom was an anti-semite, what are your thoughts on this quote?:

According to Patristics scholars, opposition to any particular view during the late 4th century was conventionally expressed in a manner, utilizing the rhetorical form known as the psogos, whose literary conventions were to vilify opponents in an uncompromising manner; thus, it has been argued that to call Chrysostom an "anti-Semite" is to employ anachronistic terminology in a way incongruous with historical context and record. This does not preclude assertions that Chrysostom's theology was a form of Anti-Jewish supersessionism.

I've heard the argument but I'm not sure what it proves, honestly. Perhaps it excuses the "pigs and dogs" comments, but I really don't see how it can excuse the deicide charge. That isn't just boasting against the trunk, it's taking a wiz on it.

St. John is writing in a context in which there was quite a lot of Christian animus towards the Jews (yes and vice versa, but I thought that Christians, let alone Saints, were supposed to be better than that). A generation prior, the bishop of Callinicum led a mob that burnt down a synagogue and St. Ambrose persuaded the Emperor not to have it rebuilt. St. John had to have known that his invective would be used to justify violence but for whatever reason he didn't seem to care.

As for supersessionism, I think it's junk theology but by itself I don't think it automatically has to be hateful. Supersessionism is not the deicide libel and need not lead to it, though.
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

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Re: SSPX expels Bishop Williamson
« Reply #286 on: January 14, 2016, 06:43:26 AM »
You don't know what you're talking about, yet not only do you decide summarily to dismiss my explanation, but you make this topic a pet of yours around here, attacking St. John Chrysostom, and by extension his Church, on a regular basis throughout your time here.

You tend to draw conclusions that are not really conclusions. Do you imagine what other people write and reply to posts of your imagination?
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Re: SSPX expels Bishop Williamson
« Reply #287 on: January 14, 2016, 10:57:53 AM »
To those who believe that St. John Chrysostom was an anti-semite, what are your thoughts on this quote?:

According to Patristics scholars, opposition to any particular view during the late 4th century was conventionally expressed in a manner, utilizing the rhetorical form known as the psogos, whose literary conventions were to vilify opponents in an uncompromising manner; thus, it has been argued that to call Chrysostom an "anti-Semite" is to employ anachronistic terminology in a way incongruous with historical context and record. This does not preclude assertions that Chrysostom's theology was a form of Anti-Jewish supersessionism.

Sounds like hateful garbage and that he would get moded here.
Are you trying to insinuate about the moderation of this forum something you know is not true? (That's a rhetorical question, so don't answer it here.) I promise you that you don't want to go there.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2016, 11:06:14 AM by PeterTheAleut »
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Offline sedevacantist

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Re: SSPX expels Bishop Williamson
« Reply #288 on: January 14, 2016, 08:24:25 PM »
I certainly don't apply revisionism to other things. Don't call me a hypocrite.

I do think Holocaust revisionism is as bad as denial. They aren't different.

If this kind of thing is now normal on the forum or in the church, I have no business being here.
do you believe 6 million jews died during the holocaust?
Yes. Do you?

Do we really need to know an answer?

We do know the answer and the answer is yes. The only people saying otherwise on the professional level are Neo-Nazis and their sympathizers.
please tell me you're joking..this is a joke right, you people seem to   love being conned but at the end of the day being wrong on this issue doesn't mean the loss of your soul, rejecting the Church of Christ is another matter, but it puzzles me with all the info available to us in this day and age people still believe 6 million jews were murdered, maybe Oswald killed Kennedy alone or next you will tell me Bin Laden was responsible for 911...please say it isn't so

I think in "all the info available today" you must be including anything anybody posts online or in pamphlets. There are uncountable sources of false information and confusing conspiracies. Please don't be a

[Edited to add:] Any information that comes with an axe to grind or a hateful attitude attached to it should be suspect. If some source is "proving" that the Jewish people do not deserve our sympathy, then they are automatically on the side of untruth, numbers aside.
you believe the jews need our sympathy? really? the Christ killers? if you fell for the 6 million number you are a victim, for starters the 6 million number was circulating in newspapers long before world war 2, if you care about the issue you should do more research

Technically, the Romans killed Jesus. Tell me what is worse, those who plead for Jesus' death honestly believing him to be a devilish heretic, or the Roman prefect who believed a man to be innocent but murdered him because of political expediency? I would most certainly say the latter, but I don't go around holding Italians or Frenchmen responsible for Christ's death. Furthermore, did not Christ himself forgive his executors and those who wished it upon him before he gave his last breath?

Tell me, what will you cite next? The Protocols of Zion? Your ideas are ridiculous and foolish.
no you are foolish , you don't know what u r babbling about, I guess you would censure John Chrysostom for not being politically correct?

John Chrysostom, Against the Jews.  Homily 1

But do not be surprised that I called the Jews pitiable. They really are pitiable and miserable. When so many blessings from heaven came into their hands, they thrust them aside and were at great pains to reject them. The morning Sun of Justice arose for them, but they thrust aside its rays and still sit in darkness. We, who were nurtured by darkness, drew the light to ourselves and were freed from the gloom of their error. They were the branches of that holy root, but those branches were broken. We had no share in the root, but we did reap the fruit of godliness. From their childhood they read the prophets, but they crucified him whom the prophets had foretold. We did not hear the divine prophecies but we did worship him of whom they prophesied. And so they are pitiful because they rejected the blessings which were sent to them, while others seized hold of these blessing and drew them to themselves. Although those Jews had been called to the adoption of sons, they fell to kinship with dogs; we who were dogs received the strength, through God's grace, to put aside the irrational nature which was ours and to rise to the honor of sons. How do I prove this? Christ said: "It is no fair to take the children's bread and to cast it to the dogs". Christ was speaking to the Canaanite woman when He called the Jews children and the Gentiles dogs

But see how thereafter the order was changed about: they became dogs, and we became the children. Paul said of the Jews: "Beware of the dogs, beware of the evil workers, beware of the mutilation. For we are the circumcision". Do you see how those who at first were children became dogs? Do you wish to find out how we, who at first were dogs, became children? "But to as many as received him, he gave the power of becoming sons of God".

Although such beasts are unfit for work, they are fit for killing. And this is what happened to the Jews: while they were making themselves unfit for work, they grew fit for slaughter. This is why Christ said: "But as for these my enemies, who did not want me to be king over them, bring them here and slay them". You Jews should have fasted then, when drunkenness was doing those terrible things to you, when your gluttony was giving birth to your ungodliness-not now. Now your fasting is untimely and an abomination. Who said so? Isaiah himself when he called out in a loud voice: "I did not choose this fast, say the Lord". Why? "You quarrel and squabble when you fast and strike those subject to you with your fists". But if you fasting was an abomination when you were striking your fellow slaves, does it become acceptable now that you have slain your Master? How could that be right?

Hopefully this won't change the topic (we can never get enough Papcy-related talk around here), but I want to note that everything St. John is saying is both quoted from and in the tenor of the Scriptures. He's giving a synopsis of the biblical position on the subject, so to speak; certainly of the official Christian position. St. John is saying nothing original, and I hope this quote of yours isn't what's given you the impression he was a special anti-Semite and friend to your cause.
he's not an anti-Semite, he was  anti-Judaism...what cause are you babbling about, the only cause I care for is the truth

No, he was antisemitic. Anti-Judaism is saying that the Jews are wrong to say that Christ is not the Messiah. Calling them dogs and swine who are fit to be killed and saying that those from 300 years later are guilty of deicide is antisemitic.
sorry, I assumed people posting here considered themselves Christian, I didn't know pagans posted here

Offline sedevacantist

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Re: SSPX expels Bishop Williamson
« Reply #289 on: January 14, 2016, 08:30:10 PM »
I certainly don't apply revisionism to other things. Don't call me a hypocrite.

I do think Holocaust revisionism is as bad as denial. They aren't different.

If this kind of thing is now normal on the forum or in the church, I have no business being here.
do you believe 6 million jews died during the holocaust?
Yes. Do you?

Do we really need to know an answer?

We do know the answer and the answer is yes. The only people saying otherwise on the professional level are Neo-Nazis and their sympathizers.
please tell me you're joking..this is a joke right, you people seem to   love being conned but at the end of the day being wrong on this issue doesn't mean the loss of your soul, rejecting the Church of Christ is another matter, but it puzzles me with all the info available to us in this day and age people still believe 6 million jews were murdered, maybe Oswald killed Kennedy alone or next you will tell me Bin Laden was responsible for 911...please say it isn't so

I think in "all the info available today" you must be including anything anybody posts online or in pamphlets. There are uncountable sources of false information and confusing conspiracies. Please don't be a

[Edited to add:] Any information that comes with an axe to grind or a hateful attitude attached to it should be suspect. If some source is "proving" that the Jewish people do not deserve our sympathy, then they are automatically on the side of untruth, numbers aside.
you believe the jews need our sympathy? really? the Christ killers? if you fell for the 6 million number you are a victim, for starters the 6 million number was circulating in newspapers long before world war 2, if you care about the issue you should do more research

Technically, the Romans killed Jesus. Tell me what is worse, those who plead for Jesus' death honestly believing him to be a devilish heretic, or the Roman prefect who believed a man to be innocent but murdered him because of political expediency? I would most certainly say the latter, but I don't go around holding Italians or Frenchmen responsible for Christ's death. Furthermore, did not Christ himself forgive his executors and those who wished it upon him before he gave his last breath?

Tell me, what will you cite next? The Protocols of Zion? Your ideas are ridiculous and foolish.
no you are foolish , you don't know what u r babbling about, I guess you would censure John Chrysostom for not being politically correct?

John Chrysostom, Against the Jews.  Homily 1

But do not be surprised that I called the Jews pitiable. They really are pitiable and miserable. When so many blessings from heaven came into their hands, they thrust them aside and were at great pains to reject them. The morning Sun of Justice arose for them, but they thrust aside its rays and still sit in darkness. We, who were nurtured by darkness, drew the light to ourselves and were freed from the gloom of their error. They were the branches of that holy root, but those branches were broken. We had no share in the root, but we did reap the fruit of godliness. From their childhood they read the prophets, but they crucified him whom the prophets had foretold. We did not hear the divine prophecies but we did worship him of whom they prophesied. And so they are pitiful because they rejected the blessings which were sent to them, while others seized hold of these blessing and drew them to themselves. Although those Jews had been called to the adoption of sons, they fell to kinship with dogs; we who were dogs received the strength, through God's grace, to put aside the irrational nature which was ours and to rise to the honor of sons. How do I prove this? Christ said: "It is no fair to take the children's bread and to cast it to the dogs". Christ was speaking to the Canaanite woman when He called the Jews children and the Gentiles dogs

But see how thereafter the order was changed about: they became dogs, and we became the children. Paul said of the Jews: "Beware of the dogs, beware of the evil workers, beware of the mutilation. For we are the circumcision". Do you see how those who at first were children became dogs? Do you wish to find out how we, who at first were dogs, became children? "But to as many as received him, he gave the power of becoming sons of God".

Although such beasts are unfit for work, they are fit for killing. And this is what happened to the Jews: while they were making themselves unfit for work, they grew fit for slaughter. This is why Christ said: "But as for these my enemies, who did not want me to be king over them, bring them here and slay them". You Jews should have fasted then, when drunkenness was doing those terrible things to you, when your gluttony was giving birth to your ungodliness-not now. Now your fasting is untimely and an abomination. Who said so? Isaiah himself when he called out in a loud voice: "I did not choose this fast, say the Lord". Why? "You quarrel and squabble when you fast and strike those subject to you with your fists". But if you fasting was an abomination when you were striking your fellow slaves, does it become acceptable now that you have slain your Master? How could that be right?
Dude!!! What's it like being an anti-semite?

so Saint John Chrysostom is an anti semite? what's it like to be a false catholic dude?

What's it like to pretend like you know anything because you can cite the century old Catholic Encyclopedia continuously? When I TA'd for undergrad history courses, we automatically failed any student who cited from it because it is notoriously bad and out of date. Your arguments are terrible and your sources are terrible.
so the Catholic encyclopedia shouldn't be cited because it's a century old, are you saying what I cited about Chrysostom is false?  if so that's a pretty big claim..I can assure you I can get other sources if need be....are you implying he didn't say these things concerning the jews?     someone posted that I spoke out of term talking about the jews so I quoted Chrysostom...how is my argument terrible? you are clueless



"you are clueless"... That's an ad hominem the likes of which we don't permit on this forum. If you disagree with another person's point of view, feel free to disagree, but never insult the person voicing the point of view. Seeing how your general tone on this forum has been consistently hostile, I think it necessary to increase your warning 20 points to let you know that such contempt for our posters is not tolerated on this forum. If you wish to appeal this warning, please PM me.

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« Last Edit: January 14, 2016, 08:35:56 PM by PeterTheAleut »

Offline Peter J

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Re: SSPX expels Bishop Williamson
« Reply #290 on: January 14, 2016, 08:46:36 PM »
Calling the Jews dogs is original. St. Paul certainly doesn't say that.

Assuming that the Jews of St. John's own day were Christ-killers is original. Even assuming that Paul thought that every Jew of His day was specially responsible for deicide, that doesn't translate to the Jews of St. John's day.

There can come a point in a discussion where both sides just look ridiculous. In regard to discussing the Holocaust with anti-semite posters on this thread, I think that point has been reached. (I won't attempt to say when exactly it was reached, but I think it was several dozens of posts ago.)

Just saying!  8)
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Offline Volnutt

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Re: SSPX expels Bishop Williamson
« Reply #291 on: January 14, 2016, 08:52:15 PM »
I certainly don't apply revisionism to other things. Don't call me a hypocrite.

I do think Holocaust revisionism is as bad as denial. They aren't different.

If this kind of thing is now normal on the forum or in the church, I have no business being here.
do you believe 6 million jews died during the holocaust?
Yes. Do you?

Do we really need to know an answer?

We do know the answer and the answer is yes. The only people saying otherwise on the professional level are Neo-Nazis and their sympathizers.
please tell me you're joking..this is a joke right, you people seem to   love being conned but at the end of the day being wrong on this issue doesn't mean the loss of your soul, rejecting the Church of Christ is another matter, but it puzzles me with all the info available to us in this day and age people still believe 6 million jews were murdered, maybe Oswald killed Kennedy alone or next you will tell me Bin Laden was responsible for 911...please say it isn't so

I think in "all the info available today" you must be including anything anybody posts online or in pamphlets. There are uncountable sources of false information and confusing conspiracies. Please don't be a

[Edited to add:] Any information that comes with an axe to grind or a hateful attitude attached to it should be suspect. If some source is "proving" that the Jewish people do not deserve our sympathy, then they are automatically on the side of untruth, numbers aside.
you believe the jews need our sympathy? really? the Christ killers? if you fell for the 6 million number you are a victim, for starters the 6 million number was circulating in newspapers long before world war 2, if you care about the issue you should do more research

Technically, the Romans killed Jesus. Tell me what is worse, those who plead for Jesus' death honestly believing him to be a devilish heretic, or the Roman prefect who believed a man to be innocent but murdered him because of political expediency? I would most certainly say the latter, but I don't go around holding Italians or Frenchmen responsible for Christ's death. Furthermore, did not Christ himself forgive his executors and those who wished it upon him before he gave his last breath?

Tell me, what will you cite next? The Protocols of Zion? Your ideas are ridiculous and foolish.
no you are foolish , you don't know what u r babbling about, I guess you would censure John Chrysostom for not being politically correct?

John Chrysostom, Against the Jews.  Homily 1

But do not be surprised that I called the Jews pitiable. They really are pitiable and miserable. When so many blessings from heaven came into their hands, they thrust them aside and were at great pains to reject them. The morning Sun of Justice arose for them, but they thrust aside its rays and still sit in darkness. We, who were nurtured by darkness, drew the light to ourselves and were freed from the gloom of their error. They were the branches of that holy root, but those branches were broken. We had no share in the root, but we did reap the fruit of godliness. From their childhood they read the prophets, but they crucified him whom the prophets had foretold. We did not hear the divine prophecies but we did worship him of whom they prophesied. And so they are pitiful because they rejected the blessings which were sent to them, while others seized hold of these blessing and drew them to themselves. Although those Jews had been called to the adoption of sons, they fell to kinship with dogs; we who were dogs received the strength, through God's grace, to put aside the irrational nature which was ours and to rise to the honor of sons. How do I prove this? Christ said: "It is no fair to take the children's bread and to cast it to the dogs". Christ was speaking to the Canaanite woman when He called the Jews children and the Gentiles dogs

But see how thereafter the order was changed about: they became dogs, and we became the children. Paul said of the Jews: "Beware of the dogs, beware of the evil workers, beware of the mutilation. For we are the circumcision". Do you see how those who at first were children became dogs? Do you wish to find out how we, who at first were dogs, became children? "But to as many as received him, he gave the power of becoming sons of God".

Although such beasts are unfit for work, they are fit for killing. And this is what happened to the Jews: while they were making themselves unfit for work, they grew fit for slaughter. This is why Christ said: "But as for these my enemies, who did not want me to be king over them, bring them here and slay them". You Jews should have fasted then, when drunkenness was doing those terrible things to you, when your gluttony was giving birth to your ungodliness-not now. Now your fasting is untimely and an abomination. Who said so? Isaiah himself when he called out in a loud voice: "I did not choose this fast, say the Lord". Why? "You quarrel and squabble when you fast and strike those subject to you with your fists". But if you fasting was an abomination when you were striking your fellow slaves, does it become acceptable now that you have slain your Master? How could that be right?

Hopefully this won't change the topic (we can never get enough Papcy-related talk around here), but I want to note that everything St. John is saying is both quoted from and in the tenor of the Scriptures. He's giving a synopsis of the biblical position on the subject, so to speak; certainly of the official Christian position. St. John is saying nothing original, and I hope this quote of yours isn't what's given you the impression he was a special anti-Semite and friend to your cause.
he's not an anti-Semite, he was  anti-Judaism...what cause are you babbling about, the only cause I care for is the truth

No, he was antisemitic. Anti-Judaism is saying that the Jews are wrong to say that Christ is not the Messiah. Calling them dogs and swine who are fit to be killed and saying that those from 300 years later are guilty of deicide is antisemitic.
sorry, I assumed people posting here considered themselves Christian, I didn't know pagans posted here

I do consider myself a Christian. I just don't idolize St. John Chrysostom, a Saint yes but also a fallible moral man like any other, to the point that I refuse to criticize him when he says something blatantly wrong.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2016, 08:53:28 PM by Volnutt »
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline Volnutt

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Re: SSPX expels Bishop Williamson
« Reply #292 on: January 14, 2016, 08:54:20 PM »
Calling the Jews dogs is original. St. Paul certainly doesn't say that.

Assuming that the Jews of St. John's own day were Christ-killers is original. Even assuming that Paul thought that every Jew of His day was specially responsible for deicide, that doesn't translate to the Jews of St. John's day.

There can come a point in a discussion where both sides just look ridiculous. In regard to discussing the Holocaust with anti-semite posters on this thread, I think that point has been reached. (I won't attempt to say when exactly it was reached, but I think it was several dozens of posts ago.)

Just saying!  8)

Yeah, you're probably right...
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline sedevacantist

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Re: SSPX expels Bishop Williamson
« Reply #293 on: January 14, 2016, 10:03:35 PM »
I certainly don't apply revisionism to other things. Don't call me a hypocrite.

I do think Holocaust revisionism is as bad as denial. They aren't different.

If this kind of thing is now normal on the forum or in the church, I have no business being here.
do you believe 6 million jews died during the holocaust?
Yes. Do you?

Do we really need to know an answer?

We do know the answer and the answer is yes. The only people saying otherwise on the professional level are Neo-Nazis and their sympathizers.
please tell me you're joking..this is a joke right, you people seem to   love being conned but at the end of the day being wrong on this issue doesn't mean the loss of your soul, rejecting the Church of Christ is another matter, but it puzzles me with all the info available to us in this day and age people still believe 6 million jews were murdered, maybe Oswald killed Kennedy alone or next you will tell me Bin Laden was responsible for 911...please say it isn't so

I think in "all the info available today" you must be including anything anybody posts online or in pamphlets. There are uncountable sources of false information and confusing conspiracies. Please don't be a

[Edited to add:] Any information that comes with an axe to grind or a hateful attitude attached to it should be suspect. If some source is "proving" that the Jewish people do not deserve our sympathy, then they are automatically on the side of untruth, numbers aside.
you believe the jews need our sympathy? really? the Christ killers? if you fell for the 6 million number you are a victim, for starters the 6 million number was circulating in newspapers long before world war 2, if you care about the issue you should do more research

Technically, the Romans killed Jesus. Tell me what is worse, those who plead for Jesus' death honestly believing him to be a devilish heretic, or the Roman prefect who believed a man to be innocent but murdered him because of political expediency? I would most certainly say the latter, but I don't go around holding Italians or Frenchmen responsible for Christ's death. Furthermore, did not Christ himself forgive his executors and those who wished it upon him before he gave his last breath?

Tell me, what will you cite next? The Protocols of Zion? Your ideas are ridiculous and foolish.
no you are foolish , you don't know what u r babbling about, I guess you would censure John Chrysostom for not being politically correct?

John Chrysostom, Against the Jews.  Homily 1

But do not be surprised that I called the Jews pitiable. They really are pitiable and miserable. When so many blessings from heaven came into their hands, they thrust them aside and were at great pains to reject them. The morning Sun of Justice arose for them, but they thrust aside its rays and still sit in darkness. We, who were nurtured by darkness, drew the light to ourselves and were freed from the gloom of their error. They were the branches of that holy root, but those branches were broken. We had no share in the root, but we did reap the fruit of godliness. From their childhood they read the prophets, but they crucified him whom the prophets had foretold. We did not hear the divine prophecies but we did worship him of whom they prophesied. And so they are pitiful because they rejected the blessings which were sent to them, while others seized hold of these blessing and drew them to themselves. Although those Jews had been called to the adoption of sons, they fell to kinship with dogs; we who were dogs received the strength, through God's grace, to put aside the irrational nature which was ours and to rise to the honor of sons. How do I prove this? Christ said: "It is no fair to take the children's bread and to cast it to the dogs". Christ was speaking to the Canaanite woman when He called the Jews children and the Gentiles dogs

But see how thereafter the order was changed about: they became dogs, and we became the children. Paul said of the Jews: "Beware of the dogs, beware of the evil workers, beware of the mutilation. For we are the circumcision". Do you see how those who at first were children became dogs? Do you wish to find out how we, who at first were dogs, became children? "But to as many as received him, he gave the power of becoming sons of God".

Although such beasts are unfit for work, they are fit for killing. And this is what happened to the Jews: while they were making themselves unfit for work, they grew fit for slaughter. This is why Christ said: "But as for these my enemies, who did not want me to be king over them, bring them here and slay them". You Jews should have fasted then, when drunkenness was doing those terrible things to you, when your gluttony was giving birth to your ungodliness-not now. Now your fasting is untimely and an abomination. Who said so? Isaiah himself when he called out in a loud voice: "I did not choose this fast, say the Lord". Why? "You quarrel and squabble when you fast and strike those subject to you with your fists". But if you fasting was an abomination when you were striking your fellow slaves, does it become acceptable now that you have slain your Master? How could that be right?

Hopefully this won't change the topic (we can never get enough Papcy-related talk around here), but I want to note that everything St. John is saying is both quoted from and in the tenor of the Scriptures. He's giving a synopsis of the biblical position on the subject, so to speak; certainly of the official Christian position. St. John is saying nothing original, and I hope this quote of yours isn't what's given you the impression he was a special anti-Semite and friend to your cause.
he's not an anti-Semite, he was  anti-Judaism...what cause are you babbling about, the only cause I care for is the truth

No, he was antisemitic. Anti-Judaism is saying that the Jews are wrong to say that Christ is not the Messiah. Calling them dogs and swine who are fit to be killed and saying that those from 300 years later are guilty of deicide is antisemitic.
sorry, I assumed people posting here considered themselves Christian, I didn't know pagans posted here

I do consider myself a Christian. I just don't idolize St. John Chrysostom, a Saint yes but also a fallible moral man like any other, to the point that I refuse to criticize him when he says something blatantly wrong.
so St. John Chrysostom is wrong, you'reright, I get it.
how about this now orthodox , ex jew and his views on the jews ?
http://realjewnews.com/

Offline Rohzek

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Re: SSPX expels Bishop Williamson
« Reply #294 on: January 14, 2016, 10:20:13 PM »
I certainly don't apply revisionism to other things. Don't call me a hypocrite.

I do think Holocaust revisionism is as bad as denial. They aren't different.

If this kind of thing is now normal on the forum or in the church, I have no business being here.
do you believe 6 million jews died during the holocaust?
Yes. Do you?

Do we really need to know an answer?

We do know the answer and the answer is yes. The only people saying otherwise on the professional level are Neo-Nazis and their sympathizers.
please tell me you're joking..this is a joke right, you people seem to   love being conned but at the end of the day being wrong on this issue doesn't mean the loss of your soul, rejecting the Church of Christ is another matter, but it puzzles me with all the info available to us in this day and age people still believe 6 million jews were murdered, maybe Oswald killed Kennedy alone or next you will tell me Bin Laden was responsible for 911...please say it isn't so

I think in "all the info available today" you must be including anything anybody posts online or in pamphlets. There are uncountable sources of false information and confusing conspiracies. Please don't be a

[Edited to add:] Any information that comes with an axe to grind or a hateful attitude attached to it should be suspect. If some source is "proving" that the Jewish people do not deserve our sympathy, then they are automatically on the side of untruth, numbers aside.
you believe the jews need our sympathy? really? the Christ killers? if you fell for the 6 million number you are a victim, for starters the 6 million number was circulating in newspapers long before world war 2, if you care about the issue you should do more research

Technically, the Romans killed Jesus. Tell me what is worse, those who plead for Jesus' death honestly believing him to be a devilish heretic, or the Roman prefect who believed a man to be innocent but murdered him because of political expediency? I would most certainly say the latter, but I don't go around holding Italians or Frenchmen responsible for Christ's death. Furthermore, did not Christ himself forgive his executors and those who wished it upon him before he gave his last breath?

Tell me, what will you cite next? The Protocols of Zion? Your ideas are ridiculous and foolish.
no you are foolish , you don't know what u r babbling about, I guess you would censure John Chrysostom for not being politically correct?

John Chrysostom, Against the Jews.  Homily 1

But do not be surprised that I called the Jews pitiable. They really are pitiable and miserable. When so many blessings from heaven came into their hands, they thrust them aside and were at great pains to reject them. The morning Sun of Justice arose for them, but they thrust aside its rays and still sit in darkness. We, who were nurtured by darkness, drew the light to ourselves and were freed from the gloom of their error. They were the branches of that holy root, but those branches were broken. We had no share in the root, but we did reap the fruit of godliness. From their childhood they read the prophets, but they crucified him whom the prophets had foretold. We did not hear the divine prophecies but we did worship him of whom they prophesied. And so they are pitiful because they rejected the blessings which were sent to them, while others seized hold of these blessing and drew them to themselves. Although those Jews had been called to the adoption of sons, they fell to kinship with dogs; we who were dogs received the strength, through God's grace, to put aside the irrational nature which was ours and to rise to the honor of sons. How do I prove this? Christ said: "It is no fair to take the children's bread and to cast it to the dogs". Christ was speaking to the Canaanite woman when He called the Jews children and the Gentiles dogs

But see how thereafter the order was changed about: they became dogs, and we became the children. Paul said of the Jews: "Beware of the dogs, beware of the evil workers, beware of the mutilation. For we are the circumcision". Do you see how those who at first were children became dogs? Do you wish to find out how we, who at first were dogs, became children? "But to as many as received him, he gave the power of becoming sons of God".

Although such beasts are unfit for work, they are fit for killing. And this is what happened to the Jews: while they were making themselves unfit for work, they grew fit for slaughter. This is why Christ said: "But as for these my enemies, who did not want me to be king over them, bring them here and slay them". You Jews should have fasted then, when drunkenness was doing those terrible things to you, when your gluttony was giving birth to your ungodliness-not now. Now your fasting is untimely and an abomination. Who said so? Isaiah himself when he called out in a loud voice: "I did not choose this fast, say the Lord". Why? "You quarrel and squabble when you fast and strike those subject to you with your fists". But if you fasting was an abomination when you were striking your fellow slaves, does it become acceptable now that you have slain your Master? How could that be right?
Dude!!! What's it like being an anti-semite?

so Saint John Chrysostom is an anti semite? what's it like to be a false catholic dude?

What's it like to pretend like you know anything because you can cite the century old Catholic Encyclopedia continuously? When I TA'd for undergrad history courses, we automatically failed any student who cited from it because it is notoriously bad and out of date. Your arguments are terrible and your sources are terrible.
so the Catholic encyclopedia shouldn't be cited because it's a century old, are you saying what I cited about Chrysostom is false?  if so that's a pretty big claim..I can assure you I can get other sources if need be....are you implying he didn't say these things concerning the jews?     someone posted that I spoke out of term talking about the jews so I quoted Chrysostom...how is my argument terrible? you are clueless



"you are clueless"... That's an ad hominem the likes of which we don't permit on this forum. If you disagree with another person's point of view, feel free to disagree, but never insult the person voicing the point of view. Seeing how your general tone on this forum has been consistently hostile, I think it necessary to increase your warning 20 points to let you know that such contempt for our posters is not tolerated on this forum. If you wish to appeal this warning, please PM me.

- PeterTheAleut
Moderator


No, the Catholic Encyclopedia should be avoided because it is BOTH out-dated and notoriously BAD. And no, I think he did say those things about the Jews. All I am saying is that continuously throughout this thread and others you go off and say, "Well Catholic Encyclopedia says..." and pretend that it is somehow worthy of respect or substantial to your cause. CE should be taken with a grain of salt. If you want to cite a work about papal supremacy, then get with the times and much better scholarship and at least begin with Walter Ullmann's The Growth of Papal Government in the Middle Ages. There are others just as good in French or German, but I doubt we could hold a discussion of them.

And your argument about Jews is terrible. Just because a saint does something doesn't make it okay. Augustine solicited prostitutes. Do you go around strip clubs and brothels then? Thomas Aquinas advocated burning heretics. Do you want to burn Protestants, etc.? Get real.

And mod, if it means anything, I don't mind sed saying that I am clueless, so I ask that he not be penalized for it.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2016, 10:22:05 PM by Rohzek »
"Il ne faut imaginer Dieu ni trop bon, ni méchant. La justice est entre l'excès de la clémence et la cruauté, ainsi que les peines finies sont entre l'impunité et les peines éternelles." - Denise Diderot, Pensées philosophiques 1746

Offline sedevacantist

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Re: SSPX expels Bishop Williamson
« Reply #295 on: January 15, 2016, 12:15:22 AM »
you wrote "And your argument about Jews is terrible. Just because a saint does something doesn't make it okay. Augustine solicited prostitutes. Do you go around strip clubs and brothels then? Thomas Aquinas advocated burning heretics. Do you want to burn Protestants, etc.? Get real."

I disagree, my argument about the jews makes sense, I am giving you saints and their teachings on the jews, you want to disagree with St John Chrysostom that is your prerogative but I don't believe you have the whole orthodox community backing you on this, Augustine did sin before his conversion, your argument doesn't make sense, burning of heretics I am not against, that's another topic

back to the jews, I have shown that my point of view is more in line with Christianity, the church fathers , and lets add the bible...you on the other hand follow the world and it's politically correct views


and when I post something that comes from the Cath encycl if it's false simply tell me it's false and prove it, what I posted on St John Chrysotom is not false but you rant anyway

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Re: SSPX expels Bishop Williamson
« Reply #296 on: January 15, 2016, 12:03:42 PM »
I certainly don't apply revisionism to other things. Don't call me a hypocrite.

I do think Holocaust revisionism is as bad as denial. They aren't different.

If this kind of thing is now normal on the forum or in the church, I have no business being here.
do you believe 6 million jews died during the holocaust?
Yes. Do you?

Do we really need to know an answer?

We do know the answer and the answer is yes. The only people saying otherwise on the professional level are Neo-Nazis and their sympathizers.
please tell me you're joking..this is a joke right, you people seem to   love being conned but at the end of the day being wrong on this issue doesn't mean the loss of your soul, rejecting the Church of Christ is another matter, but it puzzles me with all the info available to us in this day and age people still believe 6 million jews were murdered, maybe Oswald killed Kennedy alone or next you will tell me Bin Laden was responsible for 911...please say it isn't so

I think in "all the info available today" you must be including anything anybody posts online or in pamphlets. There are uncountable sources of false information and confusing conspiracies. Please don't be a

[Edited to add:] Any information that comes with an axe to grind or a hateful attitude attached to it should be suspect. If some source is "proving" that the Jewish people do not deserve our sympathy, then they are automatically on the side of untruth, numbers aside.
you believe the jews need our sympathy? really? the Christ killers? if you fell for the 6 million number you are a victim, for starters the 6 million number was circulating in newspapers long before world war 2, if you care about the issue you should do more research

Technically, the Romans killed Jesus. Tell me what is worse, those who plead for Jesus' death honestly believing him to be a devilish heretic, or the Roman prefect who believed a man to be innocent but murdered him because of political expediency? I would most certainly say the latter, but I don't go around holding Italians or Frenchmen responsible for Christ's death. Furthermore, did not Christ himself forgive his executors and those who wished it upon him before he gave his last breath?

Tell me, what will you cite next? The Protocols of Zion? Your ideas are ridiculous and foolish.
no you are foolish , you don't know what u r babbling about, I guess you would censure John Chrysostom for not being politically correct?

John Chrysostom, Against the Jews.  Homily 1

But do not be surprised that I called the Jews pitiable. They really are pitiable and miserable. When so many blessings from heaven came into their hands, they thrust them aside and were at great pains to reject them. The morning Sun of Justice arose for them, but they thrust aside its rays and still sit in darkness. We, who were nurtured by darkness, drew the light to ourselves and were freed from the gloom of their error. They were the branches of that holy root, but those branches were broken. We had no share in the root, but we did reap the fruit of godliness. From their childhood they read the prophets, but they crucified him whom the prophets had foretold. We did not hear the divine prophecies but we did worship him of whom they prophesied. And so they are pitiful because they rejected the blessings which were sent to them, while others seized hold of these blessing and drew them to themselves. Although those Jews had been called to the adoption of sons, they fell to kinship with dogs; we who were dogs received the strength, through God's grace, to put aside the irrational nature which was ours and to rise to the honor of sons. How do I prove this? Christ said: "It is no fair to take the children's bread and to cast it to the dogs". Christ was speaking to the Canaanite woman when He called the Jews children and the Gentiles dogs

But see how thereafter the order was changed about: they became dogs, and we became the children. Paul said of the Jews: "Beware of the dogs, beware of the evil workers, beware of the mutilation. For we are the circumcision". Do you see how those who at first were children became dogs? Do you wish to find out how we, who at first were dogs, became children? "But to as many as received him, he gave the power of becoming sons of God".

Although such beasts are unfit for work, they are fit for killing. And this is what happened to the Jews: while they were making themselves unfit for work, they grew fit for slaughter. This is why Christ said: "But as for these my enemies, who did not want me to be king over them, bring them here and slay them". You Jews should have fasted then, when drunkenness was doing those terrible things to you, when your gluttony was giving birth to your ungodliness-not now. Now your fasting is untimely and an abomination. Who said so? Isaiah himself when he called out in a loud voice: "I did not choose this fast, say the Lord". Why? "You quarrel and squabble when you fast and strike those subject to you with your fists". But if you fasting was an abomination when you were striking your fellow slaves, does it become acceptable now that you have slain your Master? How could that be right?
Dude!!! What's it like being an anti-semite?

so Saint John Chrysostom is an anti semite? what's it like to be a false catholic dude?

Dude! I dunno. Tell me what it's like.
"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

Offline Volnutt

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Re: SSPX expels Bishop Williamson
« Reply #297 on: January 15, 2016, 03:02:53 PM »

back to the jews, I have shown that my point of view is more in line with Christianity, the church fathers , and lets add the bible...you on the other hand follow the world and it's politically correct views

No, you haven't. At most you've assumed St. John Chrysostom's faulty views back on to the NT.
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline sedevacantist

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Re: SSPX expels Bishop Williamson
« Reply #298 on: January 15, 2016, 06:20:57 PM »
I certainly don't apply revisionism to other things. Don't call me a hypocrite.

I do think Holocaust revisionism is as bad as denial. They aren't different.

If this kind of thing is now normal on the forum or in the church, I have no business being here.
do you believe 6 million jews died during the holocaust?
Yes. Do you?

Do we really need to know an answer?

We do know the answer and the answer is yes. The only people saying otherwise on the professional level are Neo-Nazis and their sympathizers.
please tell me you're joking..this is a joke right, you people seem to   love being conned but at the end of the day being wrong on this issue doesn't mean the loss of your soul, rejecting the Church of Christ is another matter, but it puzzles me with all the info available to us in this day and age people still believe 6 million jews were murdered, maybe Oswald killed Kennedy alone or next you will tell me Bin Laden was responsible for 911...please say it isn't so

I think in "all the info available today" you must be including anything anybody posts online or in pamphlets. There are uncountable sources of false information and confusing conspiracies. Please don't be a

[Edited to add:] Any information that comes with an axe to grind or a hateful attitude attached to it should be suspect. If some source is "proving" that the Jewish people do not deserve our sympathy, then they are automatically on the side of untruth, numbers aside.
you believe the jews need our sympathy? really? the Christ killers? if you fell for the 6 million number you are a victim, for starters the 6 million number was circulating in newspapers long before world war 2, if you care about the issue you should do more research

Technically, the Romans killed Jesus. Tell me what is worse, those who plead for Jesus' death honestly believing him to be a devilish heretic, or the Roman prefect who believed a man to be innocent but murdered him because of political expediency? I would most certainly say the latter, but I don't go around holding Italians or Frenchmen responsible for Christ's death. Furthermore, did not Christ himself forgive his executors and those who wished it upon him before he gave his last breath?

Tell me, what will you cite next? The Protocols of Zion? Your ideas are ridiculous and foolish.
no you are foolish , you don't know what u r babbling about, I guess you would censure John Chrysostom for not being politically correct?

John Chrysostom, Against the Jews.  Homily 1

But do not be surprised that I called the Jews pitiable. They really are pitiable and miserable. When so many blessings from heaven came into their hands, they thrust them aside and were at great pains to reject them. The morning Sun of Justice arose for them, but they thrust aside its rays and still sit in darkness. We, who were nurtured by darkness, drew the light to ourselves and were freed from the gloom of their error. They were the branches of that holy root, but those branches were broken. We had no share in the root, but we did reap the fruit of godliness. From their childhood they read the prophets, but they crucified him whom the prophets had foretold. We did not hear the divine prophecies but we did worship him of whom they prophesied. And so they are pitiful because they rejected the blessings which were sent to them, while others seized hold of these blessing and drew them to themselves. Although those Jews had been called to the adoption of sons, they fell to kinship with dogs; we who were dogs received the strength, through God's grace, to put aside the irrational nature which was ours and to rise to the honor of sons. How do I prove this? Christ said: "It is no fair to take the children's bread and to cast it to the dogs". Christ was speaking to the Canaanite woman when He called the Jews children and the Gentiles dogs

But see how thereafter the order was changed about: they became dogs, and we became the children. Paul said of the Jews: "Beware of the dogs, beware of the evil workers, beware of the mutilation. For we are the circumcision". Do you see how those who at first were children became dogs? Do you wish to find out how we, who at first were dogs, became children? "But to as many as received him, he gave the power of becoming sons of God".

Although such beasts are unfit for work, they are fit for killing. And this is what happened to the Jews: while they were making themselves unfit for work, they grew fit for slaughter. This is why Christ said: "But as for these my enemies, who did not want me to be king over them, bring them here and slay them". You Jews should have fasted then, when drunkenness was doing those terrible things to you, when your gluttony was giving birth to your ungodliness-not now. Now your fasting is untimely and an abomination. Who said so? Isaiah himself when he called out in a loud voice: "I did not choose this fast, say the Lord". Why? "You quarrel and squabble when you fast and strike those subject to you with your fists". But if you fasting was an abomination when you were striking your fellow slaves, does it become acceptable now that you have slain your Master? How could that be right?
Dude!!! What's it like being an anti-semite?

so Saint John Chrysostom is an anti semite? what's it like to be a false catholic dude?

Dude! I dunno. Tell me what it's like.
so you don't know if Saint Chrysostom is an anti semite but you are sure I'm one?

Offline Rohzek

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Re: SSPX expels Bishop Williamson
« Reply #299 on: January 16, 2016, 12:27:03 AM »
you wrote "And your argument about Jews is terrible. Just because a saint does something doesn't make it okay. Augustine solicited prostitutes. Do you go around strip clubs and brothels then? Thomas Aquinas advocated burning heretics. Do you want to burn Protestants, etc.? Get real."

I disagree, my argument about the jews makes sense, I am giving you saints and their teachings on the jews, you want to disagree with St John Chrysostom that is your prerogative but I don't believe you have the whole orthodox community backing you on this, Augustine did sin before his conversion, your argument doesn't make sense, burning of heretics I am not against, that's another topic

back to the jews, I have shown that my point of view is more in line with Christianity, the church fathers , and lets add the bible...you on the other hand follow the world and it's politically correct views


and when I post something that comes from the Cath encycl if it's false simply tell me it's false and prove it, what I posted on St John Chrysotom is not false but you rant anyway

Well, I never mentioned anything about your Chrysostom quote being inaccurate so...yeah.

And why should I care whether I have backers on my position. What is this? A popularity contest?

And as for the burning of heretics, I guess if you have your way then a lot more Joan of Arcs will be dying in this world. Also:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ixgc_FGam3s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrzMhU_4m-g
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Re: SSPX expels Bishop Williamson
« Reply #300 on: January 16, 2016, 07:48:59 AM »
Quote
No, he was antisemitic. Anti-Judaism is saying that the Jews are wrong to say that Christ is not the Messiah. Calling them dogs and swine who are fit to be killed and saying that those from 300 years later are guilty of deicide is antisemitic
I don't believe St. John Chrysostom knew anything about the modern,  now highly politicized term "antisemitism" in his day.

But even if your going there, he was not referring to the Jews in that context  particulary  as an ethnicity or a race.

As for calling them names, nothing new here, Christ called the Pharisees snakes and vipers in his condemnation of them as well.



You serpents, generation of vipers, how will you flee from the judgment of hell? -Matthew 23:33
Sancte Michael Archangele, defende nos in proelio, contra nequitiam et insidias diaboli esto praesidium.

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Re: SSPX expels Bishop Williamson
« Reply #301 on: January 16, 2016, 07:54:52 AM »
Quote
The Society of St Pius X has confirmed that it has expelled the English Bishop Richard Williamson.

Bishop Williamson, 72, one of four men illicitly ordained in 1988 by Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre in Écône, Switzerland, has been a controversial figure, particularly for his views on Jews, who he has called the “enemies of Christ”.
News flash: they are.

Cf. the New Testament

Salvation is only through the Jews. See: all that God has wrought.
Christ also stated this;

9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, [/b]and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.-Revelation 3:9

So which "jews" is salvation through?
Sancte Michael Archangele, defende nos in proelio, contra nequitiam et insidias diaboli esto praesidium.

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Re: SSPX expels Bishop Williamson
« Reply #302 on: January 16, 2016, 08:03:47 AM »
Calling the Jews dogs is original. St. Paul certainly doesn't say that.

Assuming that the Jews of St. John's own day were Christ-killers is original. Even assuming that Paul thought that every Jew of His day was specially responsible for deicide, that doesn't translate to the Jews of St. John's day.

There can come a point in a discussion where both sides just look ridiculous. In regard to discussing the Holocaust with anti-semite posters on this thread, I think that point has been reached. (I won't attempt to say when exactly it was reached, but I think it was several dozens of posts ago.)

Just saying!  8)
What I don't get is people throwing around this "antisemite" accusation for even merely questioning anything about the Holocaust like it's some kind of religion of heresy or something. Which is exactly why Bp Williamson got into hot water to begin with. I mean they actually wanted to prosecute the man for hate speech over this nonsense.

And not for nothing, but who are the Jews or anyone else to dictate to the Church who they can keep as Bishops or lift excommunications? These are the very same people that reject the divinity of Christ altogether.

This is ridiculous.
Sancte Michael Archangele, defende nos in proelio, contra nequitiam et insidias diaboli esto praesidium.

Offline sedevacantist

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Re: SSPX expels Bishop Williamson
« Reply #303 on: January 16, 2016, 09:22:38 AM »
you wrote "And your argument about Jews is terrible. Just because a saint does something doesn't make it okay. Augustine solicited prostitutes. Do you go around strip clubs and brothels then? Thomas Aquinas advocated burning heretics. Do you want to burn Protestants, etc.? Get real."

I disagree, my argument about the jews makes sense, I am giving you saints and their teachings on the jews, you want to disagree with St John Chrysostom that is your prerogative but I don't believe you have the whole orthodox community backing you on this, Augustine did sin before his conversion, your argument doesn't make sense, burning of heretics I am not against, that's another topic

back to the jews, I have shown that my point of view is more in line with Christianity, the church fathers , and lets add the bible...you on the other hand follow the world and it's politically correct views


and when I post something that comes from the Cath encycl if it's false simply tell me it's false and prove it, what I posted on St John Chrysotom is not false but you rant anyway

Well, I never mentioned anything about your Chrysostom quote being inaccurate so...yeah.

And why should I care whether I have backers on my position. What is this? A popularity contest?

And as for the burning of heretics, I guess if you have your way then a lot more Joan of Arcs will be dying in this world. Also:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ixgc_FGam3s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrzMhU_4m-g
no popularity contest, I'm not orthodox, you are, if your fellow orthodox are telling you something about a saint you should pay attention, you can't say my argument concerning the jews is anti semetic when I'm following the teachings of a saint, either me and the saint are anti semetic or we're not..as for the burning of heretics I believe at the time the Church was justified in doing so, for what is worse than teaching souls counter to the faith and leading them to hell? anyways this is not the time or place for that issue....I would simply like to know am I anti semetic from my posts, if yes is Saint Chrysostom anti semetic?

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Re: SSPX expels Bishop Williamson
« Reply #304 on: January 16, 2016, 09:24:43 AM »
Calling the Jews dogs is original. St. Paul certainly doesn't say that.

Assuming that the Jews of St. John's own day were Christ-killers is original. Even assuming that Paul thought that every Jew of His day was specially responsible for deicide, that doesn't translate to the Jews of St. John's day.

There can come a point in a discussion where both sides just look ridiculous. In regard to discussing the Holocaust with anti-semite posters on this thread, I think that point has been reached. (I won't attempt to say when exactly it was reached, but I think it was several dozens of posts ago.)

Just saying!  8)
What I don't get is people throwing around this "antisemite" accusation for even merely questioning anything about the Holocaust like it's some kind of religion of heresy or something. Which is exactly why Bp Williamson got into hot water to begin with. I mean they actually wanted to prosecute the man for hate speech over this nonsense.

And not for nothing, but who are the Jews or anyone else to dictate to the Church who they can keep as Bishops or lift excommunications? These are the very same people that reject the divinity of Christ altogether.

This is ridiculous.

how dare you speak the truth

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Re: SSPX expels Bishop Williamson
« Reply #305 on: January 16, 2016, 12:26:50 PM »
And not for nothing, but who are the Jews or anyone else to dictate to the Church who they can keep as Bishops or lift excommunications? These are the very same people that reject the divinity of Christ altogether.

Maybe they're just shrewd and taking advantage of the fact that Abp Lefebvre dictated to Rome who he was going to ordain as bishops, what excommunications were of no effect, when "ecclesia supplet" does and does not apply, etc.  If the "true" Catholics don't respect their Pope or their Church, why should the Jews?  That Bp Williamson is a rather strange fellow just makes it look less unreasonable. 

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Re: SSPX expels Bishop Williamson
« Reply #306 on: January 16, 2016, 12:42:59 PM »
And not for nothing, but who are the Jews or anyone else to dictate to the Church who they can keep as Bishops or lift excommunications? These are the very same people that reject the divinity of Christ altogether.

Maybe they're just shrewd and taking advantage of the fact that Abp Lefebvre dictated to Rome who he was going to ordain as bishops, what excommunications were of no effect, when "ecclesia supplet" does and does not apply, etc.  If the "true" Catholics don't respect their Pope or their Church, why should the Jews?  That Bp Williamson is a rather strange fellow just makes it look less unreasonable.
Regardless how they or any other nonCatholics feel about what went down between SSPX and Rome, it's not their place to influence it either way. Like I said, we don't get involved in their Synagogues and Temples in the midst of their squabbles about what jew should be held in high standard or who the "real jews" are. that is none of our business.

As for SSPX , they're in schism and need to work out their own problems with the Vatican without no interference from anyone else to settle their differences.

I'm sure you can relate to this. ;)
Sancte Michael Archangele, defende nos in proelio, contra nequitiam et insidias diaboli esto praesidium.

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Re: SSPX expels Bishop Williamson
« Reply #307 on: January 16, 2016, 12:56:13 PM »
And not for nothing, but who are the Jews or anyone else to dictate to the Church who they can keep as Bishops or lift excommunications? These are the very same people that reject the divinity of Christ altogether.

Maybe they're just shrewd and taking advantage of the fact that Abp Lefebvre dictated to Rome who he was going to ordain as bishops, what excommunications were of no effect, when "ecclesia supplet" does and does not apply, etc.  If the "true" Catholics don't respect their Pope or their Church, why should the Jews?  That Bp Williamson is a rather strange fellow just makes it look less unreasonable.
Regardless how they or any other nonCatholics feel about what went down between SSPX and Rome, it's not their place to influence it either way.

But their ability to make your ecclesiastical authorities jump has more to do with their weakness than Jewish lobbying. 

Quote
As for SSPX , they're in schism and need to work out their own problems with the Vatican without no interference from anyone else to settle their differences.

I'm sure you can relate to this. ;)

Are they in schism?  Even authorities "in full communion with Rome" disagree on that point.  I think you're right that they should be able to work with Rome without external interference.  That said, they are not a group that shies away from aiming guns at their feet.   

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Re: SSPX expels Bishop Williamson
« Reply #308 on: January 16, 2016, 01:07:21 PM »
Quote
But their ability to make your ecclesiastical authorities jump has more to do with their weakness than Jewish lobbying. 
This is true. I guess they're more concerned with keeping a "dialogue" with the Synagogue more than Truth itself.

Nostra aetate anyone?

Quote
Are they in schism?  Even authorities "in full communion with Rome" disagree on that point.
apparently, they're working on it.

Pope Benedict XVI declared that for doctrinal rather than disciplinary reasons, the Society has no canonical status in the Catholic Church and because its lack of canonical status, the ministries exercised by its ministers are not legitimate in the Church.[1] However, the Society maintains that the Holy See gives some recognition to the canonical existence and ecclesial ministry of the Society's priests.[2] Tensions between the society and the Holy See reached their height in 1988, when Archbishop Lefebvre consecrated four bishops against the orders of Pope John Paul II, resulting in a declaration of excommunication against the bishops who consecrated or were consecrated. However, the excommunication was removed in January 2009[3] with a hope expressed that all members of the society would quickly return to full communion.[4][5]-https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Society_of_St._Pius_X

Eh, it's a wiki source, so who knows. I'm too lazy to do the research to find out for sure. I'm not SSPX. It's not my problem.

Quote
That said, they are not a group that shies away from aiming guns at their feet.
But they've been hitting nerves now for a long time. Their aim is better than you think.
Sancte Michael Archangele, defende nos in proelio, contra nequitiam et insidias diaboli esto praesidium.

Offline sedevacantist

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Re: SSPX expels Bishop Williamson
« Reply #309 on: January 16, 2016, 04:35:50 PM »
And not for nothing, but who are the Jews or anyone else to dictate to the Church who they can keep as Bishops or lift excommunications? These are the very same people that reject the divinity of Christ altogether.

Maybe they're just shrewd and taking advantage of the fact that Abp Lefebvre dictated to Rome who he was going to ordain as bishops, what excommunications were of no effect, when "ecclesia supplet" does and does not apply, etc.  If the "true" Catholics don't respect their Pope or their Church, why should the Jews?  That Bp Williamson is a rather strange fellow just makes it look less unreasonable.
Regardless how they or any other nonCatholics feel about what went down between SSPX and Rome, it's not their place to influence it either way. Like I said, we don't get involved in their Synagogues and Temples in the midst of their squabbles about what jew should be held in high standard or who the "real jews" are. that is none of our business.

As for SSPX , they're in schism and need to work out their own problems with the Vatican without no interference from anyone else to settle their differences.

I'm sure you can relate to this. ;)
schism if the Vatican was catholic,since it's not there's no schism

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Re: SSPX expels Bishop Williamson
« Reply #310 on: January 16, 2016, 05:43:22 PM »
To deny the Holocaust is equally to deny of martyrdom of:

- Gregory (Peradze) of Warsaw
- Gorazd (Pavlik) of Prague
- Mary (Skobtsova) of Paris and her companions Demetrius (Klepinin), George (Skobtsov) and Elijah (Fondaminsky)
- Alexander (Schmorell) of Munich
- George (Bogić) of Našice
- Ignatius (Bazyluk) of Jabłeczna
- Savva (Triajić) of Karlovac
- Raphael (Momcilović) of Šišatovac
- Peter (Zimonjić) of Dabar
- Vukašin (Mandrapa) of Klepci
- Plato (Jovanović) of Banja Luka
- Joannicius (Lipovac) of Montenegro
- Branko (Dobrosavljević) of Vejlun

and many other saints that died from the hand of Germans and their allies.
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Re: SSPX expels Bishop Williamson
« Reply #311 on: January 16, 2016, 05:49:50 PM »
I may or may not be particularly interested in mike's piety.

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Re: SSPX expels Bishop Williamson
« Reply #312 on: January 16, 2016, 05:56:59 PM »
To deny the Holocaust is equally to deny of martyrdom of:

- Gregory (Peradze) of Warsaw
- Gorazd (Pavlik) of Prague
- Mary (Skobtsova) of Paris and her companions Demetrius (Klepinin), George (Skobtsov) and Elijah (Fondaminsky)
- Alexander (Schmorell) of Munich
- George (Bogić) of Našice
- Ignatius (Bazyluk) of Jabłeczna
- Savva (Triajić) of Karlovac
- Raphael (Momcilović) of Šišatovac
- Peter (Zimonjić) of Dabar
- Vukašin (Mandrapa) of Klepci
- Plato (Jovanović) of Banja Luka
- Joannicius (Lipovac) of Montenegro
- Branko (Dobrosavljević) of Vejlun

and many other saints that died from the hand of Germans and their allies.

^POM
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Re: SSPX expels Bishop Williamson
« Reply #313 on: January 16, 2016, 06:04:45 PM »
I may or may not be particularly interested in mike's piety.

I know about Free India Legion. Maybe that is the reason you do not venerate them.
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Re: SSPX expels Bishop Williamson
« Reply #314 on: January 16, 2016, 06:10:07 PM »
I may or may not be particularly interested in mike's piety.

You question his piety for talking about Saints who have been martyred in the Holocaust?
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.