Author Topic: Catholic vs Orthodox according to St Thomas  (Read 4162 times)

ialmisry and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Online Volnutt

  • Dull Sublunary Lover
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,002
  • Flatearthery will get you EVERYWHERE
  • Faith: Pseudo-Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Spiritually homeless
Re: Catholic vs Orthodox according to St Thomas
« Reply #225 on: January 31, 2016, 08:29:36 PM »
I knew it was that dinosaur all along.

According to some far right traditional Catholics, there were no dinosaurs, Jewish fabrication to undermine the creation story!

Somebody should let Answers in Genesis know!
Is that what they teach you at the temple volnutt-stein?

Actually, it's Volnutt-berg.

Rome doesn't care. Rome is actually very cool guy.

Offline JoeS2

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,547
  • St. Mark Defender of the true Faith (old CAF guy)
Re: Catholic vs Orthodox according to St Thomas
« Reply #226 on: February 01, 2016, 12:29:37 AM »
Even if St. Peter were the "rock" being referred to, there are a lot more pieces that need to be put together to get from there to the claims associated with the modern papacy.  I'm sure someone has done a better job than I can in setting out the logical steps required, but the following is an attempt to do that:

Peter is the Rock.
In naming Peter the Rock, Christ intended to convey a particular power upon Peter.
That power is one that Peter exercises over the other apostles.
Peter's singular power transfers to another upon his death.
The person to whom that authority transfers is a bishop.
That bishop is the bishop of Rome.
The bishop of Rome has authority over all other bishops in the world, including the power to name them bishops and depose them at will.
The bishop of Rome has authority over every person in the world, all of whom must submit to him in order to be saved.
That authority is a singular teaching authority that allows for the definition of teachings, the setting forth of laws, and the creation and imposition of liturgies.

With all due respect........ 8)

Offline ErmyCath

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 217
Re: Catholic vs Orthodox according to St Thomas
« Reply #227 on: February 01, 2016, 12:04:49 PM »
^ I don't know what that means.
"You must have an opinion on everything and loudly confront everyone with it." - Cyrillic

Offline Iconodule

  • Professor of Cryptopatristics at Miskatonic University
  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 9,262
  • Monsters from the Id
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Ecumenical Patriarchate (ACROD)
Re: Catholic vs Orthodox according to St Thomas
« Reply #228 on: February 01, 2016, 01:00:01 PM »
make Ronald Wilson Reagan out to be the Beast because there are 6 letters in each of his three names.

Woah, that explains a lot!
Please help an Orthodox artist and his four children keep their home.

Offline wainscottbl

  • Swine of the Sheep
  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,923
Re: Catholic vs Orthodox according to St Thomas
« Reply #229 on: February 01, 2016, 06:41:21 PM »
I think what the OP needs to do, and then others who disagree, is to provide quotes from the father, etc., and then support those quotes in his favor. And not just simple "argument from authority". Using quotes is not that, but arguing vaguely from a quote is.
The roots of education are bitter, but the fruit is sweet.
                                                             -Aristotle



Mor Ephrem, section moderator[/b][/color]

Offline primuspilus

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,590
  • Inserting personal quote here.
    • Holy Trinity Orthodox Church
  • Faith: Western Rite Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: AOCNA - Diocese of Charleston and beyond
Re: Catholic vs Orthodox according to St Thomas
« Reply #230 on: February 02, 2016, 02:34:57 PM »
I think what the OP needs to do, and then others who disagree, is to provide quotes from the father, etc., and then support those quotes in his favor. And not just simple "argument from authority". Using quotes is not that, but arguing vaguely from a quote is.
The problem isnt quoting the Fathers, its picking and choosing the quotes that support his assertions, yet ignoring the volumes of quotes smashing them into dust. Its like Sedevacantist was the top student at Liberty University's school of apologetics.

PP
"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"
Gregory the Great

"Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern." St. John Maximovitch, The Wonderworker

Offline sedevacantist

  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 338
Re: Catholic vs Orthodox according to St Thomas
« Reply #231 on: February 02, 2016, 06:44:36 PM »
I think what the OP needs to do, and then others who disagree, is to provide quotes from the father, etc., and then support those quotes in his favor. And not just simple "argument from authority". Using quotes is not that, but arguing vaguely from a quote is.
The problem isnt quoting the Fathers, its picking and choosing the quotes that support his assertions, yet ignoring the volumes of quotes smashing them into dust. Its like Sedevacantist was the top student at Liberty University's school of apologetics.

PP
thanks for the laugh, if ever my posts are allowed to go through we'll see which quotes smash who's

Offline sedevacantist

  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 338
Re: Catholic vs Orthodox according to St Thomas
« Reply #232 on: February 02, 2016, 06:46:45 PM »
so far I have proven that St John Chrysostum and St Hiliary both believed St Peter was the rock, they have stated that the confession was the rock also which doesn't disprove St Peter as being the rock
 so that's 2 fathers who believe St Peter is the rock vs 0 that state he is not the rock.
 
 which fits into Basil of Seleucia Oratio XXV.4
St. Augustine
St. Ambrose , I have proven with quote below St Peter is the rock as well as his confession  3 -0
 
 
Bede the Venerable Homily 23
 
 
And I tell you: you are Peter; because I am the rock, you are Rocky, Peter-I mean, rock doesn't come from Rocky, but Rocky from rock, just as Christ doesn't come from Christian, but Christian from Christ; and upon this rock I will build my Church (Mt 16:17-18); not upon Peter, or Rocky, which is what you are, but upon the rock which you have confessed. I will build my Church though; I will build you, because in this answer of yours you represent the Church




Quote

 



St. Ambrose of Milan Commentary on Ephesians 2:20


St Ambrose stating the confession is part of he rock, does he state St Peter is not the rock?
no
 
here's my quote to support my claim


Saint Ambrose
The Lord says to Peter: “I say to you,” He says, “that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell will not overcome it. And to you I will give the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatever things you bind on earth shall be bound also in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth, they shall be loosed also in heaven” [Matt. 16:18-19]. And again He says to him after His resurrection: “Feed my sheep” [John 21:17]. On him He builds the Church, and to him He gives the command to feed the sheep; and although He assigns a like power to all the Apostles, yet He founded a single chair, and He established by His own authority a source and an intrinsic reason for that unity. Indeed, the others were that also which Peter was; but a primacy is given to Peter, whereby it is made clear that there is but one Church and one chair. So too, all are shepherds, and the flock is shown to be one, fed by all the Apostles in single-minded accord. If someone does not hold fast to this unity of Peter, can he imagine that he still holds the faith? If he desert the chair of Peter upon whom the Church was built, can he still be confident that he is in the Church? (“Commentaries on Twelve of David’s Psalms”)
 
 so 3-0



Quote

All these things doth the faith demand that is based on the rock of the true Stone, that is Christ



St. Aphraates Demonstration I.2-6,13,19
 
 
the true stone is Christ, all agreed, nothing here disproves St Peter is also called the rock by Christ

still 3-0


The Lord said to Peter: on this rock I will build My Church…On this catholic confession of faith he establishes the faithful in life.


St. Augustine of Hippo Sermon 270.2

 
St Augustine stating the confession is part of he rock, does he state St Peter is not the rock?
no


 here's my support

 

Augustine   
Remember, in this man Peter, the rock. He's the one, you see, who on being questioned by the Lord about who the disciples said he was, replied, 'You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.' On hearing this, Jesus said to him, 'Blessed are you, Simon Bar Jona, because flesh and blood did not reveal it to you, but my Father who is in heaven. And I tell you'...'You are Peter, Rocky, and on this rock I shall build my Church, and the gates of the underworld will not conquer her
http://www.christiantruth.com/articles/fathersmt16.html
 
4-0



Quote

For the Church cannot be moved because it is known to have been founded on that most solid rock, namely, Christ the Lord.



Cassiodorus Expositions in the Psalms, Psalm 45.5


Christ is also the rock, does it state St Peter is not the rock, no

 

still 4-0



Quote

Thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church; that is, on the faith of his confession.



St. John Chrysostom Homilies on the Gospel of Saint Matthew, Homily 54.2-3


I already provided the quote from St John

 

5-0

 

 



Quote

Now Christ called this confession a rock, and he named the one who confessed it 'Peter,' perceiving the appellation which was suitable to the author of this confession



Basil of Seleucia Oratio XXV.4


 

For now I'll give the orthodox this one

 

5-1



Quote

You are Peter and on this rock from which you have taken your name, that is, on myself, I will build my Church, upon that perfection of faith which you confessed I will build my Church...



Bede the Venerable Homily 23


 

I have

 

 

 

And upon this rock, that is, upon the Lord and Saviour who gave participation in his name to the one who in faith recognized, loved, and confessed him, so that Peter might be called by the name of the rock: upon this rock the Church is built, so that one does not attain to eternal life and the share of the elect except by faith in and love of Christ, by partaking of Christ's sacraments, and by observing his commandments.83
Bede

 

this you can argue either way, I say still 5-1

 

 

 


Quote

Jesus said to divine Peter: 'You are Peter and upon this rock I will build my Church.' Now by the word 'rock', Jesus indicated, I think, the immoveable faith of the disciple.



St. Cyril of Alexandria Commentary on Isaiah IV.2


St. Cyril of Alexandria: "Set over the holy disciples;" "the Prince of the holy disciples;" "Prince of the Apostles;" "the Leader" (In Joann. lib. x. tom. vii. p. 924; ibid., lib. xii. p. 1064; Thesaur., tom. viii. p. 340; Hom, xiii., De Fest. Pasch., tom. x. Pt. ii. p. 105, ed. Migne).

 

 

for now I'll give the orthodox this one 5-2



Quote

For since the truth shines forth from the Church Catholic alone, the Lord says that there is a place by Him, from which He is to be seen. Moses is placed on a rock, to behold the form of God, because if any one maintains not the firmness of Faith, he discerns not the Divine presence. Of which firmness the Lord says, 'Upon this rock I shall build my Church.



St. Gregory the Great Morals on the Book of Job, Book XXXV.13


 

I have

 

Who does not know that the holy Church is founded on the solidity of the Chief Apostle, whose name expressed his firmness, being called Peter from Petra (Rock)?…Though there were many Apostles, only the See of the Prince of the Apostles…received supreme authority in virtue of its very principate.” (Letter to the Patriarch Eulogius of Alexandria, Ep. 7)”
 
6-2
 


Quote

Christ, who searcheth the hearts, did not ask His disciples, 'Whom do men say that I, the Son of Man, am?' Because He did not know the varying opinion of men concerning Himself, but was desirous, of teaching all that same confession which Peter, inspired by Him, laid as the basis and foundation, on which the Lord built His Church.




St. Isidore of Pelusium Epistle 235

I'll give you this one cuz I'm too lazy

 

6-3

 


Quote

Moreover, Christ is called a 'foundation' because faith is established in him, and because the catholic Church is built upon him (Christ).



St. Isidore of Seville Etym. VII.2

Christ is the foundation, we agree,speaks nothing to Matt 16

 

6-3

 


Quote

So, of all our faith, our Lord Jesus Christ is the firm and true foundation; and upon this rock our faith is established.



St. Jacob of Nisibis Sermon 1 de Fide i.13


couldn't find



Quote

The rock is Christ, Who gave to His apostles, that they also should be called rocks, 'Thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build My Church



St. Jerome Commentary on Amos vi.12-13


I have

 

Letters from St. Jerome to Pope Damasus

 

"Therefore, though your greatness makes me fear, yet your kindness invites me. From the priest I ask the salvation of the victim; from the shepherd the safety of his sheep. Away with envy, away with all canvassing of the Roman power; it is but with the successor of the fisherman and the disciple of the Cross that I speak. Following none in the first place but Christ, I am in communion with your beatitude, that is, with the Chair of Peter. On that rock I know the Church is built. Whosoever shall eat the Lamb outside that house if profane. If any be not with Noah in the Ark, he shall perish beneath the sway of the deluge.

 

http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/apologetics/num53.htm

 

 

7-3



Quote

This is that firm and immovable faith upon which, as upon the rock whose surname you bear, the Church is founded.



St. John of Damascus Homily on the Transfiguration


 

too tired, will give this one 7-4



Quote

And if we too have said like Peter, 'Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God,' not as if flesh and blood had revealed it unto us, but by light from the Father in heaven having shone in our heart, we become a Peter, and to us there might be said by the Word, 'Thou art Peter,' etc. For a rock is every disciple of Christ of whom those drank who drank of the spiritual rock which followed them, and upon every such rock is built every word of the church, and the polity in accordance with it; for in each of the perfect, who have the combination of words and deeds and thoughts which fill up the blessedness, is the church built by God.



Origen Commentary on Matthew, Chapters 10-11

I have


Origen (230-250 A.D.):
"See what the Lord said to Peter, that great foundation of the Church, and most solid Rock, upon which Christ founded the Church ..." (Origen, In Exodus. Hom. v. . 4 tom. ii).

8-4
 
now you can answer the following
 
Tertullian: "Peter, who is called the Rock whereon the Church was to be built, and who obtained the keys of the kingdom of heaven” (De Praescr. Haeret., c. 22).

9-4
 

St. Hippolytus (225 A.D.):
"Peter, the Rock of the Church ..." (Hippolytus in S. Theophan, n. 9, Galland, ii. p. 494). "Peter, the Rock of the Faith, whom Christ our Lord called blessed, the teacher of the Church, the first disciple, he who has the Keys of the Kingdom." (Hippolytus, Ex Fabricio, Op. Hippol. tom. ii. De Fine Mundi et de Antichristo, n. 9
 
10-4
 

Optatus (367 A.D.)
"You cannot deny that you are aware that in the city of Rome the episcopal chair was given first to Peter; the chair in which Peter sat, the same who was head - that is why he is also called Cephas ["Rock"] - of all the apostles; the one chair in which unity is maintained by all" (The Schism of the Donatists 2:2 [A.D. 367]).
11-4
 

St. Gregory Nazianzen (370 A.D.):
"See thou that of the disciples of Christ, all of whom were great and deserving of the choice, one is called a Rock and entrusted with the foundations of the Church." (Gregory Naz., T. i or xxxii).
 
12-4
 
I can go on

Offline PeterTheAleut

  • The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
  • Section Moderator
  • Hypatos
  • *****
  • Posts: 36,734
  • Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Re: Catholic vs Orthodox according to St Thomas
« Reply #233 on: February 02, 2016, 08:46:18 PM »
so far I have proven that St John Chrysostum and St Hiliary both believed St Peter was the rock, they have stated that the confession was the rock also which doesn't disprove St Peter as being the rock
 so that's 2 fathers who believe St Peter is the rock vs 0 that state he is not the rock.
 
 which fits into Basil of Seleucia Oratio XXV.4
St. Augustine
St. Ambrose , I have proven with quote below St Peter is the rock as well as his confession  3 -0
 
 
Bede the Venerable Homily 23
 
 
And I tell you: you are Peter; because I am the rock, you are Rocky, Peter-I mean, rock doesn't come from Rocky, but Rocky from rock, just as Christ doesn't come from Christian, but Christian from Christ; and upon this rock I will build my Church (Mt 16:17-18); not upon Peter, or Rocky, which is what you are, but upon the rock which you have confessed. I will build my Church though; I will build you, because in this answer of yours you represent the Church




Quote

 



St. Ambrose of Milan Commentary on Ephesians 2:20


St Ambrose stating the confession is part of he rock, does he state St Peter is not the rock?
no
 
here's my quote to support my claim


Saint Ambrose
The Lord says to Peter: “I say to you,” He says, “that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell will not overcome it. And to you I will give the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatever things you bind on earth shall be bound also in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth, they shall be loosed also in heaven” [Matt. 16:18-19]. And again He says to him after His resurrection: “Feed my sheep” [John 21:17]. On him He builds the Church, and to him He gives the command to feed the sheep; and although He assigns a like power to all the Apostles, yet He founded a single chair, and He established by His own authority a source and an intrinsic reason for that unity. Indeed, the others were that also which Peter was; but a primacy is given to Peter, whereby it is made clear that there is but one Church and one chair. So too, all are shepherds, and the flock is shown to be one, fed by all the Apostles in single-minded accord. If someone does not hold fast to this unity of Peter, can he imagine that he still holds the faith? If he desert the chair of Peter upon whom the Church was built, can he still be confident that he is in the Church? (“Commentaries on Twelve of David’s Psalms”)
 
 so 3-0



Quote

All these things doth the faith demand that is based on the rock of the true Stone, that is Christ



St. Aphraates Demonstration I.2-6,13,19
 
 
the true stone is Christ, all agreed, nothing here disproves St Peter is also called the rock by Christ

still 3-0


The Lord said to Peter: on this rock I will build My Church…On this catholic confession of faith he establishes the faithful in life.


St. Augustine of Hippo Sermon 270.2

 
St Augustine stating the confession is part of he rock, does he state St Peter is not the rock?
no


 here's my support

 

Augustine   
Remember, in this man Peter, the rock. He's the one, you see, who on being questioned by the Lord about who the disciples said he was, replied, 'You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.' On hearing this, Jesus said to him, 'Blessed are you, Simon Bar Jona, because flesh and blood did not reveal it to you, but my Father who is in heaven. And I tell you'...'You are Peter, Rocky, and on this rock I shall build my Church, and the gates of the underworld will not conquer her
http://www.christiantruth.com/articles/fathersmt16.html
 
4-0



Quote

For the Church cannot be moved because it is known to have been founded on that most solid rock, namely, Christ the Lord.



Cassiodorus Expositions in the Psalms, Psalm 45.5


Christ is also the rock, does it state St Peter is not the rock, no

 

still 4-0



Quote

Thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church; that is, on the faith of his confession.



St. John Chrysostom Homilies on the Gospel of Saint Matthew, Homily 54.2-3


I already provided the quote from St John

 

5-0

 

 



Quote

Now Christ called this confession a rock, and he named the one who confessed it 'Peter,' perceiving the appellation which was suitable to the author of this confession



Basil of Seleucia Oratio XXV.4


 

For now I'll give the orthodox this one

 

5-1



Quote

You are Peter and on this rock from which you have taken your name, that is, on myself, I will build my Church, upon that perfection of faith which you confessed I will build my Church...



Bede the Venerable Homily 23


 

I have

 

 

 

And upon this rock, that is, upon the Lord and Saviour who gave participation in his name to the one who in faith recognized, loved, and confessed him, so that Peter might be called by the name of the rock: upon this rock the Church is built, so that one does not attain to eternal life and the share of the elect except by faith in and love of Christ, by partaking of Christ's sacraments, and by observing his commandments.83
Bede

 

this you can argue either way, I say still 5-1

 

 

 


Quote

Jesus said to divine Peter: 'You are Peter and upon this rock I will build my Church.' Now by the word 'rock', Jesus indicated, I think, the immoveable faith of the disciple.



St. Cyril of Alexandria Commentary on Isaiah IV.2


St. Cyril of Alexandria: "Set over the holy disciples;" "the Prince of the holy disciples;" "Prince of the Apostles;" "the Leader" (In Joann. lib. x. tom. vii. p. 924; ibid., lib. xii. p. 1064; Thesaur., tom. viii. p. 340; Hom, xiii., De Fest. Pasch., tom. x. Pt. ii. p. 105, ed. Migne).

 

 

for now I'll give the orthodox this one 5-2



Quote

For since the truth shines forth from the Church Catholic alone, the Lord says that there is a place by Him, from which He is to be seen. Moses is placed on a rock, to behold the form of God, because if any one maintains not the firmness of Faith, he discerns not the Divine presence. Of which firmness the Lord says, 'Upon this rock I shall build my Church.



St. Gregory the Great Morals on the Book of Job, Book XXXV.13


 

I have

 

Who does not know that the holy Church is founded on the solidity of the Chief Apostle, whose name expressed his firmness, being called Peter from Petra (Rock)?…Though there were many Apostles, only the See of the Prince of the Apostles…received supreme authority in virtue of its very principate.” (Letter to the Patriarch Eulogius of Alexandria, Ep. 7)”
 
6-2
 


Quote

Christ, who searcheth the hearts, did not ask His disciples, 'Whom do men say that I, the Son of Man, am?' Because He did not know the varying opinion of men concerning Himself, but was desirous, of teaching all that same confession which Peter, inspired by Him, laid as the basis and foundation, on which the Lord built His Church.




St. Isidore of Pelusium Epistle 235

I'll give you this one cuz I'm too lazy

 

6-3

 


Quote

Moreover, Christ is called a 'foundation' because faith is established in him, and because the catholic Church is built upon him (Christ).



St. Isidore of Seville Etym. VII.2

Christ is the foundation, we agree,speaks nothing to Matt 16

 

6-3

 


Quote

So, of all our faith, our Lord Jesus Christ is the firm and true foundation; and upon this rock our faith is established.



St. Jacob of Nisibis Sermon 1 de Fide i.13


couldn't find



Quote

The rock is Christ, Who gave to His apostles, that they also should be called rocks, 'Thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build My Church



St. Jerome Commentary on Amos vi.12-13


I have

 

Letters from St. Jerome to Pope Damasus

 

"Therefore, though your greatness makes me fear, yet your kindness invites me. From the priest I ask the salvation of the victim; from the shepherd the safety of his sheep. Away with envy, away with all canvassing of the Roman power; it is but with the successor of the fisherman and the disciple of the Cross that I speak. Following none in the first place but Christ, I am in communion with your beatitude, that is, with the Chair of Peter. On that rock I know the Church is built. Whosoever shall eat the Lamb outside that house if profane. If any be not with Noah in the Ark, he shall perish beneath the sway of the deluge.

 

http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/apologetics/num53.htm

 

 

7-3



Quote

This is that firm and immovable faith upon which, as upon the rock whose surname you bear, the Church is founded.



St. John of Damascus Homily on the Transfiguration


 

too tired, will give this one 7-4



Quote

And if we too have said like Peter, 'Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God,' not as if flesh and blood had revealed it unto us, but by light from the Father in heaven having shone in our heart, we become a Peter, and to us there might be said by the Word, 'Thou art Peter,' etc. For a rock is every disciple of Christ of whom those drank who drank of the spiritual rock which followed them, and upon every such rock is built every word of the church, and the polity in accordance with it; for in each of the perfect, who have the combination of words and deeds and thoughts which fill up the blessedness, is the church built by God.



Origen Commentary on Matthew, Chapters 10-11

I have


Origen (230-250 A.D.):
"See what the Lord said to Peter, that great foundation of the Church, and most solid Rock, upon which Christ founded the Church ..." (Origen, In Exodus. Hom. v. . 4 tom. ii).

8-4
 
now you can answer the following
 
Tertullian: "Peter, who is called the Rock whereon the Church was to be built, and who obtained the keys of the kingdom of heaven” (De Praescr. Haeret., c. 22).

9-4
 

St. Hippolytus (225 A.D.):
"Peter, the Rock of the Church ..." (Hippolytus in S. Theophan, n. 9, Galland, ii. p. 494). "Peter, the Rock of the Faith, whom Christ our Lord called blessed, the teacher of the Church, the first disciple, he who has the Keys of the Kingdom." (Hippolytus, Ex Fabricio, Op. Hippol. tom. ii. De Fine Mundi et de Antichristo, n. 9
 
10-4
 

Optatus (367 A.D.)
"You cannot deny that you are aware that in the city of Rome the episcopal chair was given first to Peter; the chair in which Peter sat, the same who was head - that is why he is also called Cephas ["Rock"] - of all the apostles; the one chair in which unity is maintained by all" (The Schism of the Donatists 2:2 [A.D. 367]).
11-4
 

St. Gregory Nazianzen (370 A.D.):
"See thou that of the disciples of Christ, all of whom were great and deserving of the choice, one is called a Rock and entrusted with the foundations of the Church." (Gregory Naz., T. i or xxxii).
 
12-4
 
I can go on
You're still dodging all those quotes provided here that counter your arguments. I'm giving you 48 hours to engage them, or you're going back to moderated status. If you wish to question this directive, please PM me.
Not all who wander are lost.

Offline Vanhyo

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 234
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Patriarchate of Bulgaria
Re: Catholic vs Orthodox according to St Thomas
« Reply #234 on: February 03, 2016, 03:22:14 AM »
@Sedevacantis, ill give you few copy-paste macros because your style of writing makes it difficult for people to understand what are you doing.

When you quote or respond to a forum user, place his sentence between [quote*][/quote*] Without the *

When you quote Church Father place his sentence between [i*][/i*] Without the *


This will make your posts much more readable.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2016, 03:35:28 AM by Vanhyo »

Offline Vanhyo

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 234
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Patriarchate of Bulgaria
Re: Catholic vs Orthodox according to St Thomas
« Reply #235 on: February 03, 2016, 03:47:19 AM »
Right now as it stands, your quotes contradict one other on many levels so i am not sure whether you are responding to someone or trying to refute yourself...

Offline TheTrisagion

  • Humble Servant and Spokesperson of the Fourteenth Apostle
  • Hoplitarches
  • *************
  • Posts: 15,985
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Re: Catholic vs Orthodox according to St Thomas
« Reply #236 on: February 03, 2016, 09:49:59 AM »
so far I have proven that St John Chrysostum and St Hiliary both believed St Peter was the rock, they have stated that the confession was the rock also which doesn't disprove St Peter as being the rock
 so that's 2 fathers who believe St Peter is the rock vs 0 that state he is not the rock.
 
 which fits into Basil of Seleucia Oratio XXV.4
St. Augustine
St. Ambrose , I have proven with quote below St Peter is the rock as well as his confession  3 -0
 
 
Bede the Venerable Homily 23
 
 
And I tell you: you are Peter; because I am the rock, you are Rocky, Peter-I mean, rock doesn't come from Rocky, but Rocky from rock, just as Christ doesn't come from Christian, but Christian from Christ; and upon this rock I will build my Church (Mt 16:17-18); not upon Peter, or Rocky, which is what you are, but upon the rock which you have confessed. I will build my Church though; I will build you, because in this answer of yours you represent the Church




Quote

 



St. Ambrose of Milan Commentary on Ephesians 2:20


St Ambrose stating the confession is part of he rock, does he state St Peter is not the rock?
no
 
here's my quote to support my claim


Saint Ambrose
The Lord says to Peter: “I say to you,” He says, “that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell will not overcome it. And to you I will give the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatever things you bind on earth shall be bound also in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth, they shall be loosed also in heaven” [Matt. 16:18-19]. And again He says to him after His resurrection: “Feed my sheep” [John 21:17]. On him He builds the Church, and to him He gives the command to feed the sheep; and although He assigns a like power to all the Apostles, yet He founded a single chair, and He established by His own authority a source and an intrinsic reason for that unity. Indeed, the others were that also which Peter was; but a primacy is given to Peter, whereby it is made clear that there is but one Church and one chair. So too, all are shepherds, and the flock is shown to be one, fed by all the Apostles in single-minded accord. If someone does not hold fast to this unity of Peter, can he imagine that he still holds the faith? If he desert the chair of Peter upon whom the Church was built, can he still be confident that he is in the Church? (“Commentaries on Twelve of David’s Psalms”)
 
 so 3-0



Quote

All these things doth the faith demand that is based on the rock of the true Stone, that is Christ



St. Aphraates Demonstration I.2-6,13,19
 
 
the true stone is Christ, all agreed, nothing here disproves St Peter is also called the rock by Christ

still 3-0


The Lord said to Peter: on this rock I will build My Church…On this catholic confession of faith he establishes the faithful in life.


St. Augustine of Hippo Sermon 270.2

 
St Augustine stating the confession is part of he rock, does he state St Peter is not the rock?
no


 here's my support

 

Augustine   
Remember, in this man Peter, the rock. He's the one, you see, who on being questioned by the Lord about who the disciples said he was, replied, 'You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.' On hearing this, Jesus said to him, 'Blessed are you, Simon Bar Jona, because flesh and blood did not reveal it to you, but my Father who is in heaven. And I tell you'...'You are Peter, Rocky, and on this rock I shall build my Church, and the gates of the underworld will not conquer her
http://www.christiantruth.com/articles/fathersmt16.html
 
4-0



Quote

For the Church cannot be moved because it is known to have been founded on that most solid rock, namely, Christ the Lord.



Cassiodorus Expositions in the Psalms, Psalm 45.5


Christ is also the rock, does it state St Peter is not the rock, no

 

still 4-0



Quote

Thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church; that is, on the faith of his confession.



St. John Chrysostom Homilies on the Gospel of Saint Matthew, Homily 54.2-3


I already provided the quote from St John

 

5-0

 

 



Quote

Now Christ called this confession a rock, and he named the one who confessed it 'Peter,' perceiving the appellation which was suitable to the author of this confession



Basil of Seleucia Oratio XXV.4


 

For now I'll give the orthodox this one

 

5-1



Quote

You are Peter and on this rock from which you have taken your name, that is, on myself, I will build my Church, upon that perfection of faith which you confessed I will build my Church...



Bede the Venerable Homily 23


 

I have

 

 

 

And upon this rock, that is, upon the Lord and Saviour who gave participation in his name to the one who in faith recognized, loved, and confessed him, so that Peter might be called by the name of the rock: upon this rock the Church is built, so that one does not attain to eternal life and the share of the elect except by faith in and love of Christ, by partaking of Christ's sacraments, and by observing his commandments.83
Bede

 

this you can argue either way, I say still 5-1

 

 

 


Quote

Jesus said to divine Peter: 'You are Peter and upon this rock I will build my Church.' Now by the word 'rock', Jesus indicated, I think, the immoveable faith of the disciple.



St. Cyril of Alexandria Commentary on Isaiah IV.2


St. Cyril of Alexandria: "Set over the holy disciples;" "the Prince of the holy disciples;" "Prince of the Apostles;" "the Leader" (In Joann. lib. x. tom. vii. p. 924; ibid., lib. xii. p. 1064; Thesaur., tom. viii. p. 340; Hom, xiii., De Fest. Pasch., tom. x. Pt. ii. p. 105, ed. Migne).

 

 

for now I'll give the orthodox this one 5-2



Quote

For since the truth shines forth from the Church Catholic alone, the Lord says that there is a place by Him, from which He is to be seen. Moses is placed on a rock, to behold the form of God, because if any one maintains not the firmness of Faith, he discerns not the Divine presence. Of which firmness the Lord says, 'Upon this rock I shall build my Church.



St. Gregory the Great Morals on the Book of Job, Book XXXV.13


 

I have

 

Who does not know that the holy Church is founded on the solidity of the Chief Apostle, whose name expressed his firmness, being called Peter from Petra (Rock)?…Though there were many Apostles, only the See of the Prince of the Apostles…received supreme authority in virtue of its very principate.” (Letter to the Patriarch Eulogius of Alexandria, Ep. 7)”
 
6-2
 


Quote

Christ, who searcheth the hearts, did not ask His disciples, 'Whom do men say that I, the Son of Man, am?' Because He did not know the varying opinion of men concerning Himself, but was desirous, of teaching all that same confession which Peter, inspired by Him, laid as the basis and foundation, on which the Lord built His Church.




St. Isidore of Pelusium Epistle 235

I'll give you this one cuz I'm too lazy

 

6-3

 


Quote

Moreover, Christ is called a 'foundation' because faith is established in him, and because the catholic Church is built upon him (Christ).



St. Isidore of Seville Etym. VII.2

Christ is the foundation, we agree,speaks nothing to Matt 16

 

6-3

 


Quote

So, of all our faith, our Lord Jesus Christ is the firm and true foundation; and upon this rock our faith is established.



St. Jacob of Nisibis Sermon 1 de Fide i.13


couldn't find



Quote

The rock is Christ, Who gave to His apostles, that they also should be called rocks, 'Thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build My Church



St. Jerome Commentary on Amos vi.12-13


I have

 

Letters from St. Jerome to Pope Damasus

 

"Therefore, though your greatness makes me fear, yet your kindness invites me. From the priest I ask the salvation of the victim; from the shepherd the safety of his sheep. Away with envy, away with all canvassing of the Roman power; it is but with the successor of the fisherman and the disciple of the Cross that I speak. Following none in the first place but Christ, I am in communion with your beatitude, that is, with the Chair of Peter. On that rock I know the Church is built. Whosoever shall eat the Lamb outside that house if profane. If any be not with Noah in the Ark, he shall perish beneath the sway of the deluge.

 

http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/apologetics/num53.htm

 

 

7-3



Quote

This is that firm and immovable faith upon which, as upon the rock whose surname you bear, the Church is founded.



St. John of Damascus Homily on the Transfiguration


 

too tired, will give this one 7-4



Quote

And if we too have said like Peter, 'Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God,' not as if flesh and blood had revealed it unto us, but by light from the Father in heaven having shone in our heart, we become a Peter, and to us there might be said by the Word, 'Thou art Peter,' etc. For a rock is every disciple of Christ of whom those drank who drank of the spiritual rock which followed them, and upon every such rock is built every word of the church, and the polity in accordance with it; for in each of the perfect, who have the combination of words and deeds and thoughts which fill up the blessedness, is the church built by God.



Origen Commentary on Matthew, Chapters 10-11

I have


Origen (230-250 A.D.):
"See what the Lord said to Peter, that great foundation of the Church, and most solid Rock, upon which Christ founded the Church ..." (Origen, In Exodus. Hom. v. . 4 tom. ii).

8-4
 
now you can answer the following
 
Tertullian: "Peter, who is called the Rock whereon the Church was to be built, and who obtained the keys of the kingdom of heaven” (De Praescr. Haeret., c. 22).

9-4
 

St. Hippolytus (225 A.D.):
"Peter, the Rock of the Church ..." (Hippolytus in S. Theophan, n. 9, Galland, ii. p. 494). "Peter, the Rock of the Faith, whom Christ our Lord called blessed, the teacher of the Church, the first disciple, he who has the Keys of the Kingdom." (Hippolytus, Ex Fabricio, Op. Hippol. tom. ii. De Fine Mundi et de Antichristo, n. 9
 
10-4
 

Optatus (367 A.D.)
"You cannot deny that you are aware that in the city of Rome the episcopal chair was given first to Peter; the chair in which Peter sat, the same who was head - that is why he is also called Cephas ["Rock"] - of all the apostles; the one chair in which unity is maintained by all" (The Schism of the Donatists 2:2 [A.D. 367]).
11-4
 

St. Gregory Nazianzen (370 A.D.):
"See thou that of the disciples of Christ, all of whom were great and deserving of the choice, one is called a Rock and entrusted with the foundations of the Church." (Gregory Naz., T. i or xxxii).
 
12-4
 
I can go on
Best. Post. Evar.
Quote from: King Olav Tryggvasson
I order you and all your subjects to be baptized. If you refuse, I'll have you killed on the spot and I swear I will ravage every island with fire and steel.

Offline primuspilus

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,590
  • Inserting personal quote here.
    • Holy Trinity Orthodox Church
  • Faith: Western Rite Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: AOCNA - Diocese of Charleston and beyond
Re: Catholic vs Orthodox according to St Thomas
« Reply #237 on: February 03, 2016, 12:22:30 PM »
so far I have proven that St John Chrysostum and St Hiliary both believed St Peter was the rock, they have stated that the confession was the rock also which doesn't disprove St Peter as being the rock
 so that's 2 fathers who believe St Peter is the rock vs 0 that state he is not the rock.
 
 which fits into Basil of Seleucia Oratio XXV.4
St. Augustine
St. Ambrose , I have proven with quote below St Peter is the rock as well as his confession  3 -0
 
 
Bede the Venerable Homily 23
 
 
And I tell you: you are Peter; because I am the rock, you are Rocky, Peter-I mean, rock doesn't come from Rocky, but Rocky from rock, just as Christ doesn't come from Christian, but Christian from Christ; and upon this rock I will build my Church (Mt 16:17-18); not upon Peter, or Rocky, which is what you are, but upon the rock which you have confessed. I will build my Church though; I will build you, because in this answer of yours you represent the Church




Quote

 



St. Ambrose of Milan Commentary on Ephesians 2:20


St Ambrose stating the confession is part of he rock, does he state St Peter is not the rock?
no
 
here's my quote to support my claim


Saint Ambrose
The Lord says to Peter: “I say to you,” He says, “that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell will not overcome it. And to you I will give the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatever things you bind on earth shall be bound also in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth, they shall be loosed also in heaven” [Matt. 16:18-19]. And again He says to him after His resurrection: “Feed my sheep” [John 21:17]. On him He builds the Church, and to him He gives the command to feed the sheep; and although He assigns a like power to all the Apostles, yet He founded a single chair, and He established by His own authority a source and an intrinsic reason for that unity. Indeed, the others were that also which Peter was; but a primacy is given to Peter, whereby it is made clear that there is but one Church and one chair. So too, all are shepherds, and the flock is shown to be one, fed by all the Apostles in single-minded accord. If someone does not hold fast to this unity of Peter, can he imagine that he still holds the faith? If he desert the chair of Peter upon whom the Church was built, can he still be confident that he is in the Church? (“Commentaries on Twelve of David’s Psalms”)
 
 so 3-0



Quote

All these things doth the faith demand that is based on the rock of the true Stone, that is Christ



St. Aphraates Demonstration I.2-6,13,19
 
 
the true stone is Christ, all agreed, nothing here disproves St Peter is also called the rock by Christ

still 3-0


The Lord said to Peter: on this rock I will build My Church…On this catholic confession of faith he establishes the faithful in life.


St. Augustine of Hippo Sermon 270.2

 
St Augustine stating the confession is part of he rock, does he state St Peter is not the rock?
no


 here's my support

 

Augustine   
Remember, in this man Peter, the rock. He's the one, you see, who on being questioned by the Lord about who the disciples said he was, replied, 'You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.' On hearing this, Jesus said to him, 'Blessed are you, Simon Bar Jona, because flesh and blood did not reveal it to you, but my Father who is in heaven. And I tell you'...'You are Peter, Rocky, and on this rock I shall build my Church, and the gates of the underworld will not conquer her
http://www.christiantruth.com/articles/fathersmt16.html
 
4-0



Quote

For the Church cannot be moved because it is known to have been founded on that most solid rock, namely, Christ the Lord.



Cassiodorus Expositions in the Psalms, Psalm 45.5


Christ is also the rock, does it state St Peter is not the rock, no

 

still 4-0



Quote

Thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church; that is, on the faith of his confession.



St. John Chrysostom Homilies on the Gospel of Saint Matthew, Homily 54.2-3


I already provided the quote from St John

 

5-0

 

 



Quote

Now Christ called this confession a rock, and he named the one who confessed it 'Peter,' perceiving the appellation which was suitable to the author of this confession



Basil of Seleucia Oratio XXV.4


 

For now I'll give the orthodox this one

 

5-1



Quote

You are Peter and on this rock from which you have taken your name, that is, on myself, I will build my Church, upon that perfection of faith which you confessed I will build my Church...



Bede the Venerable Homily 23


 

I have

 

 

 

And upon this rock, that is, upon the Lord and Saviour who gave participation in his name to the one who in faith recognized, loved, and confessed him, so that Peter might be called by the name of the rock: upon this rock the Church is built, so that one does not attain to eternal life and the share of the elect except by faith in and love of Christ, by partaking of Christ's sacraments, and by observing his commandments.83
Bede

 

this you can argue either way, I say still 5-1

 

 

 


Quote

Jesus said to divine Peter: 'You are Peter and upon this rock I will build my Church.' Now by the word 'rock', Jesus indicated, I think, the immoveable faith of the disciple.



St. Cyril of Alexandria Commentary on Isaiah IV.2


St. Cyril of Alexandria: "Set over the holy disciples;" "the Prince of the holy disciples;" "Prince of the Apostles;" "the Leader" (In Joann. lib. x. tom. vii. p. 924; ibid., lib. xii. p. 1064; Thesaur., tom. viii. p. 340; Hom, xiii., De Fest. Pasch., tom. x. Pt. ii. p. 105, ed. Migne).

 

 

for now I'll give the orthodox this one 5-2



Quote

For since the truth shines forth from the Church Catholic alone, the Lord says that there is a place by Him, from which He is to be seen. Moses is placed on a rock, to behold the form of God, because if any one maintains not the firmness of Faith, he discerns not the Divine presence. Of which firmness the Lord says, 'Upon this rock I shall build my Church.



St. Gregory the Great Morals on the Book of Job, Book XXXV.13


 

I have

 

Who does not know that the holy Church is founded on the solidity of the Chief Apostle, whose name expressed his firmness, being called Peter from Petra (Rock)?…Though there were many Apostles, only the See of the Prince of the Apostles…received supreme authority in virtue of its very principate.” (Letter to the Patriarch Eulogius of Alexandria, Ep. 7)”
 
6-2
 


Quote

Christ, who searcheth the hearts, did not ask His disciples, 'Whom do men say that I, the Son of Man, am?' Because He did not know the varying opinion of men concerning Himself, but was desirous, of teaching all that same confession which Peter, inspired by Him, laid as the basis and foundation, on which the Lord built His Church.




St. Isidore of Pelusium Epistle 235

I'll give you this one cuz I'm too lazy

 

6-3

 


Quote

Moreover, Christ is called a 'foundation' because faith is established in him, and because the catholic Church is built upon him (Christ).



St. Isidore of Seville Etym. VII.2

Christ is the foundation, we agree,speaks nothing to Matt 16

 

6-3

 


Quote

So, of all our faith, our Lord Jesus Christ is the firm and true foundation; and upon this rock our faith is established.



St. Jacob of Nisibis Sermon 1 de Fide i.13


couldn't find



Quote

The rock is Christ, Who gave to His apostles, that they also should be called rocks, 'Thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build My Church



St. Jerome Commentary on Amos vi.12-13


I have

 

Letters from St. Jerome to Pope Damasus

 

"Therefore, though your greatness makes me fear, yet your kindness invites me. From the priest I ask the salvation of the victim; from the shepherd the safety of his sheep. Away with envy, away with all canvassing of the Roman power; it is but with the successor of the fisherman and the disciple of the Cross that I speak. Following none in the first place but Christ, I am in communion with your beatitude, that is, with the Chair of Peter. On that rock I know the Church is built. Whosoever shall eat the Lamb outside that house if profane. If any be not with Noah in the Ark, he shall perish beneath the sway of the deluge.

 

http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/apologetics/num53.htm

 

 

7-3



Quote

This is that firm and immovable faith upon which, as upon the rock whose surname you bear, the Church is founded.



St. John of Damascus Homily on the Transfiguration


 

too tired, will give this one 7-4



Quote

And if we too have said like Peter, 'Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God,' not as if flesh and blood had revealed it unto us, but by light from the Father in heaven having shone in our heart, we become a Peter, and to us there might be said by the Word, 'Thou art Peter,' etc. For a rock is every disciple of Christ of whom those drank who drank of the spiritual rock which followed them, and upon every such rock is built every word of the church, and the polity in accordance with it; for in each of the perfect, who have the combination of words and deeds and thoughts which fill up the blessedness, is the church built by God.



Origen Commentary on Matthew, Chapters 10-11

I have


Origen (230-250 A.D.):
"See what the Lord said to Peter, that great foundation of the Church, and most solid Rock, upon which Christ founded the Church ..." (Origen, In Exodus. Hom. v. . 4 tom. ii).

8-4
 
now you can answer the following
 
Tertullian: "Peter, who is called the Rock whereon the Church was to be built, and who obtained the keys of the kingdom of heaven” (De Praescr. Haeret., c. 22).

9-4
 

St. Hippolytus (225 A.D.):
"Peter, the Rock of the Church ..." (Hippolytus in S. Theophan, n. 9, Galland, ii. p. 494). "Peter, the Rock of the Faith, whom Christ our Lord called blessed, the teacher of the Church, the first disciple, he who has the Keys of the Kingdom." (Hippolytus, Ex Fabricio, Op. Hippol. tom. ii. De Fine Mundi et de Antichristo, n. 9
 
10-4
 

Optatus (367 A.D.)
"You cannot deny that you are aware that in the city of Rome the episcopal chair was given first to Peter; the chair in which Peter sat, the same who was head - that is why he is also called Cephas ["Rock"] - of all the apostles; the one chair in which unity is maintained by all" (The Schism of the Donatists 2:2 [A.D. 367]).
11-4
 

St. Gregory Nazianzen (370 A.D.):
"See thou that of the disciples of Christ, all of whom were great and deserving of the choice, one is called a Rock and entrusted with the foundations of the Church." (Gregory Naz., T. i or xxxii).
 
12-4
 
I can go on

Sadly Sede, all you did was copy and paste quotes the Orthodox use to talk about primacy, which we have no disagreement with. However, none of these even remotely mention the supremacy of the Roman Pontiff. In fact, more than a few of your own quotes prove our point. So keep talking, you'll be learning how to make Avgolemono and drinking Voka in no time.

PP
"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"
Gregory the Great

"Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern." St. John Maximovitch, The Wonderworker

Offline sedevacantist

  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 338
Re: Catholic vs Orthodox according to St Thomas
« Reply #238 on: February 03, 2016, 07:09:02 PM »
Primus
sadly you can't comprehend that all I am doing is proving that the majority of the fathers believed that St Peter was the Rock in matt 16, I in no way said I have proven supremacy, the fact that St Peter is the rock should be conceded by all here, there is no one who can refute this fact

The reason I had to do this was in response to Sam G,here's his post which he should recant if he was of good will

Sam G   Reply #151 on: January 23, 2016, 02:06:31 AM »,
Of course this argument is about papal supremacy. If St. Peter isn't the Rock, the entire papal argument falls apart. 

If you can't believe that I'm denying that St. Peter is the Rock, then you're obviously ignorant of the patristic exegesis of Matthew 16:18.  Let me inform you.

Offline sedevacantist

  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 338
Re: Catholic vs Orthodox according to St Thomas
« Reply #239 on: February 03, 2016, 07:10:58 PM »
Right now as it stands, your quotes contradict one other on many levels so i am not sure whether you are responding to someone or trying to refute yourself...
why don't you try and prove how any of my quotes refutes my position,St Peter is the rock in matt 16

 where is the contradiction?
anyways haven't you already conceded that St Peter is the rock in matt 16?

Online ialmisry

  • There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
  • Strategos
  • ******************
  • Posts: 39,930
Re: Catholic vs Orthodox according to St Thomas
« Reply #240 on: Yesterday at 12:39:55 AM »
@sedevacantis
To claim that St Peter exclusively received the keys and he is the only foundation of the Church and that authority was exclusively moved into Rome so the Pope is the exclusive successor of St Peter and all bishops are his puppets to command ...

we are back universal priest thing

VICARIUS FILII DEI = 112 + 53 + 501 = 666, coincidence ? Maybe ...

Acting immature is helping him look more pious... it is like handling him bonus points for free.

So please stop.

Ok how is that immature ?


I agree.

I had wished that he would have gone extinct before I had kids. No such luck.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Online ialmisry

  • There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
  • Strategos
  • ******************
  • Posts: 39,930
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Vanhyo

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 234
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Patriarchate of Bulgaria
Re: Catholic vs Orthodox according to St Thomas
« Reply #242 on: Yesterday at 02:59:26 AM »
Right now as it stands, your quotes contradict one other on many levels so i am not sure whether you are responding to someone or trying to refute yourself...
why don't you try and prove how any of my quotes refutes my position,St Peter is the rock in matt 16

 where is the contradiction?

How am i supposed to reply to your soup ? I don't even know whether you were quoting somebody or giving the quote yourself...


Quote
anyways haven't you already conceded that St Peter is the rock in matt 16?
Sure, but you still identify St Peter as the only Rock, where in my case i identify Christ as the Rock and consequently, St Peter and the rest of the Apostles as the Rock and foundation of the Church

Me: I believe from among the twelve, St Peter had primacy of honor
You: you believe he had supremacy of power and personal infallibility when teaching dogma if he would say the magic words "i speak ex cathedra"

I believe that initially there were three Petrene seats

You believe that Rome is the only true Petrene seat

I think at this point we are already at major disagreement

Offline primuspilus

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,590
  • Inserting personal quote here.
    • Holy Trinity Orthodox Church
  • Faith: Western Rite Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: AOCNA - Diocese of Charleston and beyond
Re: Catholic vs Orthodox according to St Thomas
« Reply #243 on: Yesterday at 01:56:45 PM »
Quote
You believe that Rome is the only true Petrene seat
It cant be. The Church existed before there was a Bishop of Rome (of whom there is zero evidence that Peter even acted as Bishop of Rome). I also did not receive an answer from Sede, that if Peter himself is THE ROCK, then when he fell into heresy, does that mean the Church ceased to exist?

What about other times Popes fell into heresy?

PP
"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"
Gregory the Great

"Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern." St. John Maximovitch, The Wonderworker

Online Sam G

  • Pre-Nikonian Hyperdox Convert
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,052
  • Does this pose make me look existential?
  • Faith: Orthodox Christianity
  • Jurisdiction: ROCOR - Old Rite
Re: Catholic vs Orthodox according to St Thomas
« Reply #244 on: Yesterday at 04:22:50 PM »
so far I have proven that St John Chrysostum and St Hiliary both believed St Peter was the rock, they have stated that the confession was the rock also which doesn't disprove St Peter as being the rock
 so that's 2 fathers who believe St Peter is the rock vs 0 that state he is not the rock.

No you haven't. As a recap, all we've proven that both St. John Chrysostom and St. Hiliary said different things at different points in their writings about who was the Rock. St. John states that it's St. Peter's confession of faith, while St. Hiliary claims that faith, not exclusively Peter's, is the foundation of the Church. Furthermore, St. John Chrysostom didn't believe that the keys were the exclusive property of St. Peter, while St. Hiliary leaves the question open to interpretation by stating that the faith itself holds the keys.


 which fits into Basil of Seleucia Oratio XXV.4
St. Augustine
St. Ambrose , I have proven with quote below St Peter is the rock as well as his confession  3 -0

St. Basil of Seleucia names both St. Peter's confession and Christ as the Rock. St. Augustine left the interpretation open, but also argued rather forcefully that the Rock was St. Peter's confession and interpreted the keys as belonging to all of the Apostles. St. Ambrose, like many Fathers, speaks very highly of St. Peter, but identifies the Rock with with both faith and Christ at different points in his writings.
 

Bede the Venerable Homily 23
 
And I tell you: you are Peter; because I am the rock, you are Rocky, Peter-I mean, rock doesn't come from Rocky, but Rocky from rock, just as Christ doesn't come from Christian, but Christian from Christ; and upon this rock I will build my Church (Mt 16:17-18); not upon Peter, or Rocky, which is what you are, but upon the rock which you have confessed. I will build my Church though; I will build you, because in this answer of yours you represent the Church

This is word for word St. Augustine, not St. Bede. The correct text of St. Bede's 23rd homily that's relevant for our discussion is as follows:

Quote
You are Peter and on this rock from which you have taken your name, that is, on myself, I will build my Church, upon that perfection of faith which you confessed I will build my Church by whose society of confession should anyone deviate although in himself he seems to do great things he does not belong to the building of my Church...Metaphorically it is said to him on this rock, that is, the Saviour which you confessed, the Church is to be built, who granted participation to the faithful confessor of his name


St. Ambrose of Milan Commentary on Ephesians 2:20

St Ambrose stating the confession is part of he rock, does he state St Peter is not the rock?
no
 
here's my quote to support my claim

Saint Ambrose
The Lord says to Peter: “I say to you,” He says, “that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell will not overcome it. And to you I will give the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatever things you bind on earth shall be bound also in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth, they shall be loosed also in heaven” [Matt. 16:18-19]. And again He says to him after His resurrection: “Feed my sheep” [John 21:17]. On him He builds the Church, and to him He gives the command to feed the sheep; and although He assigns a like power to all the Apostles, yet He founded a single chair, and He established by His own authority a source and an intrinsic reason for that unity. Indeed, the others were that also which Peter was; but a primacy is given to Peter, whereby it is made clear that there is but one Church and one chair. So too, all are shepherds, and the flock is shown to be one, fed by all the Apostles in single-minded accord. If someone does not hold fast to this unity of Peter, can he imagine that he still holds the faith? If he desert the chair of Peter upon whom the Church was built, can he still be confident that he is in the Church? (“Commentaries on Twelve of David’s Psalms”)
 
 so 3-0

This is St. Cyprian, not St. Ambrose, who believed that the "Chair of St. Peter" was the unity of the entire episcopate, not Rome. I was giving you the benefit of the doubt with confusing St. Bede's quote with St. Augustine's, but at this point it looks like you're flat out lying.


All these things doth the faith demand that is based on the rock of the true Stone, that is Christ

St. Aphraates Demonstration I.2-6,13,19
 
the true stone is Christ, all agreed, nothing here disproves St Peter is also called the rock by Christ

still 3-0

This is gratuitous.


The Lord said to Peter: on this rock I will build My Church…On this catholic confession of faith he establishes the faithful in life.

St. Augustine of Hippo Sermon 270.2

St Augustine stating the confession is part of he rock, does he state St Peter is not the rock?
no

Where does St. Augustine use the word part of?


 here's my support

Augustine   
Remember, in this man Peter, the rock. He's the one, you see, who on being questioned by the Lord about who the disciples said he was, replied, 'You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.' On hearing this, Jesus said to him, 'Blessed are you, Simon Bar Jona, because flesh and blood did not reveal it to you, but my Father who is in heaven. And I tell you'...'You are Peter, Rocky, and on this rock I shall build my Church, and the gates of the underworld will not conquer her
http://www.christiantruth.com/articles/fathersmt16.html
 
4-0

From St. Augustine's 26th homily:

Quote
For men who wished to be built upon men, said, 'I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas,' who is Peter. But others who did not wish to built upon Peter, but upon the Rock, said, 'But I am of Christ.'

St. Augustine left the interpretation of the Rock up to his reader, but, as I have said before, that didn't stop him from arguing quite forcefully for his own position.

For the Church cannot be moved because it is known to have been founded on that most solid rock, namely, Christ the Lord.

Cassiodorus Expositions in the Psalms, Psalm 45.5

Christ is also the rock, does it state St Peter is not the rock, no

still 4-0

This is also gratuitous.


Thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church; that is, on the faith of his confession.

St. John Chrysostom Homilies on the Gospel of Saint Matthew, Homily 54.2-3

I already provided the quote from St John

5-0

How does this help your position? In directly commentating on Matthew 16:18-19, St. John states that the Rock is St. Peter's confession.

Now Christ called this confession a rock, and he named the one who confessed it 'Peter,' perceiving the appellation which was suitable to the author of this confession

Basil of Seleucia Oratio XXV.4

For now I'll give the orthodox this one

5-1

There quote you attribute to St. Bede that comes from St. Augustine literally says the same thing, yet you count St. Augustine in your camp.

You are Peter and on this rock from which you have taken your name, that is, on myself, I will build my Church, upon that perfection of faith which you confessed I will build my Church...
Bede the Venerable Homily 23

And upon this rock, that is, upon the Lord and Saviour who gave participation in his name to the one who in faith recognized, loved, and confessed him, so that Peter might be called by the name of the rock: upon this rock the Church is built, so that one does not attain to eternal life and the share of the elect except by faith in and love of Christ, by partaking of Christ's sacraments, and by observing his commandments.83
Bede

this you can argue either way, I say still 5-1

Finally, you actually quote St. Bede. You may want to consider reviewing your posts before post them.

Jesus said to divine Peter: 'You are Peter and upon this rock I will build my Church.' Now by the word 'rock', Jesus indicated, I think, the immoveable faith of the disciple.

St. Cyril of Alexandria Commentary on Isaiah IV.2

St. Cyril of Alexandria: "Set over the holy disciples;" "the Prince of the holy disciples;" "Prince of the Apostles;" "the Leader" (In Joann. lib. x. tom. vii. p. 924; ibid., lib. xii. p. 1064; Thesaur., tom. viii. p. 340; Hom, xiii., De Fest. Pasch., tom. x. Pt. ii. p. 105, ed. Migne).

for now I'll give the orthodox this one 5-2

You're reasoning on who gets points for what astounds me.

Quote

For since the truth shines forth from the Church Catholic alone, the Lord says that there is a place by Him, from which He is to be seen. Moses is placed on a rock, to behold the form of God, because if any one maintains not the firmness of Faith, he discerns not the Divine presence. Of which firmness the Lord says, 'Upon this rock I shall build my Church.

St. Gregory the Great Morals on the Book of Job, Book XXXV.13

Who does not know that the holy Church is founded on the solidity of the Chief Apostle, whose name expressed his firmness, being called Peter from Petra (Rock)?…Though there were many Apostles, only the See of the Prince of the Apostles…received supreme authority in virtue of its very principate.” (Letter to the Patriarch Eulogius of Alexandria, Ep. 7)”
 
6-2

If you read the rest of that Epistle, you'd see that St. Gregory believed that the See of Peter was both Rome, Alexandria, and Antioch.



Christ, who searcheth the hearts, did not ask His disciples, 'Whom do men say that I, the Son of Man, am?' Because He did not know the varying opinion of men concerning Himself, but was desirous, of teaching all that same confession which Peter, inspired by Him, laid as the basis and foundation, on which the Lord built His Church.

St. Isidore of Pelusium Epistle 235

I'll give you this one cuz I'm too lazy

6-3

Quote

You've managed to twist the words of more important Fathers, why not this one?

Moreover, Christ is called a 'foundation' because faith is established in him, and because the catholic Church is built upon him (Christ).

St. Isidore of Seville Etym. VII.2

Christ is the foundation, we agree,speaks nothing to Matt 16

6-3

You know what's a good way to win arguments? Toss out the evidence that disagrees with you. Your posting of these quotes and then claiming they're "irrelevant" is unnecessary. If your point is true, you should have ample evidence from the Tradition that supports it and not have to twist words.

So, of all our faith, our Lord Jesus Christ is the firm and true foundation; and upon this rock our faith is established.

St. Jacob of Nisibis Sermon 1 de Fide i.13

Are you evening reading the quotes you're posting? You could learn something from them.

The rock is Christ, Who gave to His apostles, that they also should be called rocks, 'Thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build My Church

St. Jerome Commentary on Amos vi.12-13

Letters from St. Jerome to Pope Damasus
"Therefore, though your greatness makes me fear, yet your kindness invites me. From the priest I ask the salvation of the victim; from the shepherd the safety of his sheep. Away with envy, away with all canvassing of the Roman power; it is but with the successor of the fisherman and the disciple of the Cross that I speak. Following none in the first place but Christ, I am in communion with your beatitude, that is, with the Chair of Peter. On that rock I know the Church is built. Whosoever shall eat the Lamb outside that house if profane. If any be not with Noah in the Ark, he shall perish beneath the sway of the deluge.
http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/apologetics/num53.htm

7-3

St. Jerome believed that the keys were given to all the Apostles. Also From St. Jerome:

Quote
"If you ask for authority, the world outweighs the city. Wherever there is a bishop, whether at Rome or Gubbio, or Constantinople or Rhegium, or Alexandria or Tanis, his authority is the same, and his priesthood is the same. The power of riches or the lowliness of poverty does not make him a higher or a lower bishop. But all are successors of the apostles."
(Epistle 146)

This is that firm and immovable faith upon which, as upon the rock whose surname you bear, the Church is founded.

St. John of Damascus Homily on the Transfiguration

too tired, will give this one 7-4

Again, why is it that when St. John of Damascus says the church is founded on faith, you give it to us, but when other Fathers do the same it's not relevant?

And if we too have said like Peter, 'Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God,' not as if flesh and blood had revealed it unto us, but by light from the Father in heaven having shone in our heart, we become a Peter, and to us there might be said by the Word, 'Thou art Peter,' etc. For a rock is every disciple of Christ of whom those drank who drank of the spiritual rock which followed them, and upon every such rock is built every word of the church, and the polity in accordance with it; for in each of the perfect, who have the combination of words and deeds and thoughts which fill up the blessedness, is the church built by God.

Origen Commentary on Matthew, Chapters 10-11

Origen (230-250 A.D.):
"See what the Lord said to Peter, that great foundation of the Church, and most solid Rock, upon which Christ founded the Church ..." (Origen, In Exodus. Hom. v. . 4 tom. ii).

8-4

Origen says that every believer is a rock when they confess Christ. How does that help your position. Also, Origen applied Matthew 16:18-19 to the Episcopacy.

now you can answer the following
 
Tertullian: "Peter, who is called the Rock whereon the Church was to be built, and who obtained the keys of the kingdom of heaven” (De Praescr. Haeret., c. 22).

9-4

If you read the rest of the passage, Tertullian accuses his readers of claiming that they too hold the keys. Tertullian believed that the keys were to sole property of St. Peter alone, and that they had not been transmitted upon his death.
 
St. Hippolytus (225 A.D.):
"Peter, the Rock of the Church ..." (Hippolytus in S. Theophan, n. 9, Galland, ii. p. 494). "Peter, the Rock of the Faith, whom Christ our Lord called blessed, the teacher of the Church, the first disciple, he who has the Keys of the Kingdom." (Hippolytus, Ex Fabricio, Op. Hippol. tom. ii. De Fine Mundi et de Antichristo, n. 9
 
10-4

Ok, but can you prove that St. Hippolytus was applying this exclusively to the bishop of Rome?


Optatus (367 A.D.)
"You cannot deny that you are aware that in the city of Rome the episcopal chair was given first to Peter; the chair in which Peter sat, the same who was head - that is why he is also called Cephas ["Rock"] - of all the apostles; the one chair in which unity is maintained by all" (The Schism of the Donatists 2:2 [A.D. 367]).
11-4

Rome would have been a source of unity for the North African's who were fighting against the Donatists, considering that Rome held to the orthodox Catholic faith. Context.

St. Gregory Nazianzen (370 A.D.):
"See thou that of the disciples of Christ, all of whom were great and deserving of the choice, one is called a Rock and entrusted with the foundations of the Church." (Gregory Naz., T. i or xxxii).
 
12-4
 
I can go on

St. Gregory is not your friend as a Roman Catholic. If you're going to treat his words as authoritative, then heed his devastating critique of reason based theology that anticipated Aquinas by some 900 years.
Vanity of vanities, saith the Preacher, vanity of vanities; all is vanity.

Online Sam G

  • Pre-Nikonian Hyperdox Convert
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,052
  • Does this pose make me look existential?
  • Faith: Orthodox Christianity
  • Jurisdiction: ROCOR - Old Rite
Re: Catholic vs Orthodox according to St Thomas
« Reply #245 on: Yesterday at 04:25:10 PM »
Primus
sadly you can't comprehend that all I am doing is proving that the majority of the fathers believed that St Peter was the Rock in matt 16, I in no way said I have proven supremacy, the fact that St Peter is the rock should be conceded by all here, there is no one who can refute this fact

The reason I had to do this was in response to Sam G,here's his post which he should recant if he was of good will

Sam G   Reply #151 on: January 23, 2016, 02:06:31 AM »,
Of course this argument is about papal supremacy. If St. Peter isn't the Rock, the entire papal argument falls apart. 

If you can't believe that I'm denying that St. Peter is the Rock, then you're obviously ignorant of the patristic exegesis of Matthew 16:18.  Let me inform you.

I will recant nothing, since you have proved nothing.
Vanity of vanities, saith the Preacher, vanity of vanities; all is vanity.

Offline sedevacantist

  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 338
Re: Catholic vs Orthodox according to St Thomas
« Reply #246 on: Today at 10:40:14 PM »
For Sam G


If we can't agree on one father that he supports the Catholic position that St Peter is called the rock in Matt 16 then there's no point in going through them all  with you, for now we'll concentrate on Origen


you write


Origen says that every believer is a rock when they confess Christ. How does that help your position. Also, Origen applied Matthew 16:18-19 to the Episcopacy.


I counter


umm it helps my position because he said St Peter is the rock, read again


"See what the Lord said to Peter, that great foundation of the Church, and most solid Rock, upon which Christ founded the Church ..." (Origen, In Exodus. Hom. v. . 4 tom. ii).


so the fact that Origen calls every believer a rock when they confess Christ does not take away the fact that he called St Peter the rock. who are you trying to fool?

just like when  you quote  a father stating Christ is the rock , you actually think that speaks against Christ calling St Peter the rock in matt 16?? are you joking?


Isaias 51:1-2 “… look unto the rock whence ye are hewn, and to the hole of the pit whence ye are digged. Look unto Abraham your father…”

The Old Testament says look to the rock, look to Abraham. Abraham is described as the rock because he was the father of all the Israelites. Abraham’s name was changed from Abram to signify his role as rock and father of God’s people.

next you'll quote a father stating Abraham as a rock and argue it goes against my position, your arguments  are ludicrous.


So I ask you does Origen state St Peter is the rock in matt 16...yes or no

Offline sedevacantist

  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 338
Re: Catholic vs Orthodox according to St Thomas
« Reply #247 on: Today at 10:45:17 PM »
Right now as it stands, your quotes contradict one other on many levels so i am not sure whether you are responding to someone or trying to refute yourself...
why don't you try and prove how any of my quotes refutes my position,St Peter is the rock in matt 16

 where is the contradiction?

How am i supposed to reply to your soup ? I don't even know whether you were quoting somebody or giving the quote yourself...


Quote
anyways haven't you already conceded that St Peter is the rock in matt 16?
Sure, but you still identify St Peter as the only Rock, where in my case i identify Christ as the Rock and consequently, St Peter and the rest of the Apostles as the Rock and foundation of the Church

Me: I believe from among the twelve, St Peter had primacy of honor
You: you believe he had supremacy of power and personal infallibility when teaching dogma if he would say the magic words "i speak ex cathedra"

I believe that initially there were three Petrene seats

You believe that Rome is the only true Petrene seat

I think at this point we are already at major disagreement
you write
"Sure, but you still identify St Peter as the only Rock"

see whenever I try to clear a point from one of you it can never be a simple yes or no, you must a add to it by putting words in my mouth, it's a way of saving face, quote me any where, any place that I stated St Peter is the only rock?
Christ is the rock, like I explained above Abraham is also referred to as the rock, this takes away nothing from the fact that St Peter is called the rock in matt 16

Online Volnutt

  • Dull Sublunary Lover
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,002
  • Flatearthery will get you EVERYWHERE
  • Faith: Pseudo-Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Spiritually homeless
Re: Catholic vs Orthodox according to St Thomas
« Reply #248 on: Today at 10:56:43 PM »
Right now as it stands, your quotes contradict one other on many levels so i am not sure whether you are responding to someone or trying to refute yourself...
why don't you try and prove how any of my quotes refutes my position,St Peter is the rock in matt 16

 where is the contradiction?

How am i supposed to reply to your soup ? I don't even know whether you were quoting somebody or giving the quote yourself...


Quote
anyways haven't you already conceded that St Peter is the rock in matt 16?
Sure, but you still identify St Peter as the only Rock, where in my case i identify Christ as the Rock and consequently, St Peter and the rest of the Apostles as the Rock and foundation of the Church

Me: I believe from among the twelve, St Peter had primacy of honor
You: you believe he had supremacy of power and personal infallibility when teaching dogma if he would say the magic words "i speak ex cathedra"

I believe that initially there were three Petrene seats

You believe that Rome is the only true Petrene seat

I think at this point we are already at major disagreement
you write
"Sure, but you still identify St Peter as the only Rock"

see whenever I try to clear a point from one of you it can never be a simple yes or no, you must a add to it by putting words in my mouth, it's a way of saving face, quote me any where, any place that I stated St Peter is the only rock?
Christ is the rock, like I explained above Abraham is also referred to as the rock, this takes away nothing from the fact that St Peter is called the rock in matt 16

But why should we think that St. Peter is a Rock in a way that the other Apostles are not if his own "Rock-ness" derives from the "Rock-ness" of Christ?
Is that what they teach you at the temple volnutt-stein?

Actually, it's Volnutt-berg.

Rome doesn't care. Rome is actually very cool guy.

Offline sedevacantist

  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 338
Re: Catholic vs Orthodox according to St Thomas
« Reply #249 on: Today at 11:06:48 PM »


But why should we think that St. Peter is a Rock in a way that the other Apostles are not if his own "Rock-ness" derives from the "Rock-ness" of Christ?
[/quote]
Because Christ called St Peter the rock in matt 16 to start his church, not the other apostles, it seems you have an issue with Christ, there is one chief of the apostles, do you disagree?

Online Volnutt

  • Dull Sublunary Lover
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,002
  • Flatearthery will get you EVERYWHERE
  • Faith: Pseudo-Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Spiritually homeless
Re: Catholic vs Orthodox according to St Thomas
« Reply #250 on: Today at 11:13:15 PM »
In the sense that the RCC defines it, I do disagree.
Is that what they teach you at the temple volnutt-stein?

Actually, it's Volnutt-berg.

Rome doesn't care. Rome is actually very cool guy.