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Author Topic: Tensions between Moscow and OCA over recent shake up?  (Read 7429 times) Average Rating: 0
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Zenovia
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« Reply #135 on: August 28, 2012, 11:46:49 PM »

I am reminded of Jimmy Carter in all this.

A terrific human being.  A poor administrator.

Same thing goes for Tsar Nicholas II (and he would have been the first one to tell you the latter).

The cult of personality is alive and well in Orthodoxy, but, oddly enough, the personality was not the one who actively encouraged it.

Indeed.  (though on Carterl he seems to have soured as of late).

I asked a GOA Bishop that I know what he thought of Metropolitan Jonah, after he met him and they talked for quite awhile during our DoS Diocesan Conference several years ago.
He said: "I love him. I can see that he is a good man, and a man who loves the Lord, but he lacks experience, and that may be a problem for him."

We have all known people who are hardworking, smart and capable - who are simply not suited to the job. Like the examples of Carter and Tsar Nicholas II.


You people are all using Tsar Nicholas II as an example of a bad administrator simply because someone said it or wrote  it without knowing all the circumstances.  For one, under Tsar Nicholas II, Russia had the fastest growing economy in the world.   Tsar Nicholas II was the first one to come up with the revolutionary idea of a world court at the Hague, which became the forerunner of the U.N.

Tsar Nicholas II, gave Russia a free press, and he had the plans made up on the  distribution of his own wealth to the peasants, but wasn't able to impliment it because of WWI.  To understand the forces that were against him and how these revolutionists worked, they deliberately told  the nobles that the Tsar was planning on distributing their own wealth to the peasants.   

In the years before the war, there were five hundred suicide  attacks in Russia a year killing dignitaries, and people in charge.  To put that in perspective, in the U.S. that would be equal to  two thousand people a year, and these people would have been our congressmen, governors, mayors, police chiefs, etc.  In other words, everyone needed to run a government. 

The Tsar was an excellent administrator, but his wife wasn't, so when he went to the front to be with his men, his wife took over...which really meant that Rasputin took over.  He threw out every capable person in government and put in every self serving flake.   But Rasputin was the only person able to cure the Tsarvich so she was fully dependent on him.   Sad
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« Reply #136 on: August 28, 2012, 11:55:15 PM »

I am reminded of Jimmy Carter in all this.

A terrific human being.  A poor administrator.

Same thing goes for Tsar Nicholas II (and he would have been the first one to tell you the latter).

The cult of personality is alive and well in Orthodoxy, but, oddly enough, the personality was not the one who actively encouraged it.

Indeed.  (though on Carterl he seems to have soured as of late).

I asked a GOA Bishop that I know what he thought of Metropolitan Jonah, after he met him and they talked for quite awhile during our DoS Diocesan Conference several years ago.
He said: "I love him. I can see that he is a good man, and a man who loves the Lord, but he lacks experience, and that may be a problem for him."

We have all known people who are hardworking, smart and capable - who are simply not suited to the job. Like the examples of Carter and Tsar Nicholas II.


You people are all using Tsar Nicholas II as an example of a bad administrator simply because someone said it or wrote  it without knowing all the circumstances.
And how can we be sure you know all the circumstances?

For one, under Tsar Nicholas II, Russia had the fastest growing economy in the world.   Tsar Nicholas II was the first one to come up with the revolutionary idea of a world court at the Hague, which became the forerunner of the U.N.

Tsar Nicholas II, gave Russia a free press, and he had the plans made up on the  distribution of his own wealth to the peasants, but wasn't able to impliment it because of WWI.  To understand the forces that were against him and how these revolutionists worked, they deliberately told  the nobles that the Tsar was planning on distributing their own wealth to the peasants.    

In the years before the war, there were five hundred suicide  attacks in Russia a year killing dignitaries, and people in charge.  To put that in perspective, in the U.S. that would be equal to  two thousand people a year, and these people would have been our congressmen, governors, mayors, police chiefs, etc.  In other words, everyone needed to run a government.  

The Tsar was an excellent administrator, but his wife wasn't, so when he went to the front to be with his men, his wife took over...which really meant that Rasputin took over.  He threw out every capable person in government and put in every self serving flake.   But Rasputin was the only person able to cure the Tsarvich so she was fully dependent on him.   Sad
Can you cite any sources that support your point of view?
« Last Edit: August 28, 2012, 11:55:35 PM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
Zenovia
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« Reply #137 on: August 29, 2012, 12:33:12 AM »



Quote

You people are all using Tsar Nicholas II as an example of a bad administrator simply because someone said it or wrote  it without knowing all the circumstances.
Quote
And how can we be sure you know all the circumstances?

For one, under Tsar Nicholas II, Russia had the fastest growing economy in the world.   Tsar Nicholas II was the first one to come up with the revolutionary idea of a world court at the Hague, which became the forerunner of the U.N.

Tsar Nicholas II, gave Russia a free press, and he had the plans made up on the  distribution of his own wealth to the peasants, but wasn't able to impliment it because of WWI.  To understand the forces that were against him and how these revolutionists worked, they deliberately told  the nobles that the Tsar was planning on distributing their own wealth to the peasants.    

In the years before the war, there were five hundred suicide  attacks in Russia a year killing dignitaries, and people in charge.  To put that in perspective, in the U.S. that would be equal to  two thousand people a year, and these people would have been our congressmen, governors, mayors, police chiefs, etc.  In other words, everyone needed to run a government.  

The Tsar was an excellent administrator, but his wife wasn't, so when he went to the front to be with his men, his wife took over...which really meant that Rasputin took over.  He threw out every capable person in government and put in every self serving flake.   But Rasputin was the only person able to cure the Tsarvich so she was fully dependent on him.   Sad
Can you cite any sources that support your point of view?

This in not my point of view, they are facts that I gathered from different sources.  Anyway you made me go to a lot of trouble, so here are some from my own library:

THE RUSSIANS   -  Hendrick Smith
RUSSIA UNDER THE OLD REGIME - Richard Pipes
SHADOW OF THE WINTER PALACE - Edward Crankshaw
NICHOLAS AND ALEXANDRA - Rober K. Massey
ELIZABETH GRAND DUCHESS OF RUSSIA - Hugo Mager
ELLA - Christopher Warwick
GREGORI RASPUTIN - Alex De Jonge

Also if you link on to Alexander Palace Time Machine, you'll find books that were written in the years after the revolution by some of Russia's nobility that managed to escape... such as Felix Yussopov who married the Princess Irini, Tsar Nicholas II's niece.   
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« Reply #138 on: August 29, 2012, 07:31:40 AM »

The Tsar's fortune was disposed of during WWI as it was used by the Tsarina for medical supplies and support of the hospitals to care for the wounded from the front.
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« Reply #139 on: August 29, 2012, 08:50:09 PM »

The Tsar's fortune was disposed of during WWI as it was used by the Tsarina for medical supplies and support of the hospitals to care for the wounded from the front.

The Tsars fortune consisted of all the lands he owned throughout Russia, and which he had plans on distributing to the peasants, as well as jewelry.  He had a minister whose job it was to buy jewels to give as wedding gifts.  When his niece Irini married Felix Yussopov, she was given a bag of diamonds.  When the war broke out, he gave order that everyone was to bring their money back into Russia.   

His aunt, the Grand Duchess Vladimir, had a whole room with closets from top to bottom only for her jewels.  Someone said that when they greeted Tsar Alexander III's wife Dagmar at a ball for 5,000 people, she was sparkling all over with  diamonds that were sewn on her dress.

So what happened to them.  Well when Felix went back to his palace to try to take his jewels, they were gone, stolen by the bolsheviks no doubt, as were the cars, etc.  The only one that managed to get them out was the Grand Duchess Vladimir, and she was the only one that managed to ride out in style with her private train, something that even generals were not able to do.

Dagmar, Nicholas II's mother and the other Romonovs that were in the Crimea were saved because of friction between different factions of Bolsheviks.  When her brother in law the King of England sent a ship to retrieve her, she refused to go unless everyone else was taken as well, so he was forced to send more ships.  Interesting stuff huh!
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« Reply #140 on: August 29, 2012, 09:43:35 PM »

Jewellery or jewelry is a form of personal adornment, such as brooches, rings, necklaces, earrings, and bracelets.

With some exceptions, such as medical alert bracelets or military dog tags, jewellery normally differs from other items of personal adornment in that it has no other purpose than to look appealing, but humans have been producing and wearing it for a long time – with 100,000-year-old beads made from Nassarius shells thought to be the oldest known jewellery.

Jewellery may be made from a wide range of materials, but gemstones, precious metals, beads and shells have been widely used. Depending on the culture and times jewellery may be appreciated as a status symbol, for its material properties, its patterns, or for meaningful symbols. Jewellery has been made to adorn nearly every body part, from hairpins to toe rings.

The word jewellery itself is derived from the word jewel, which was anglicized from the Old French "jouel", and beyond that, to the Latin word "jocale", meaning plaything. In British English the spelling can be written as jewelery or jewellery, while in U.S. English the spelling is jewelry.
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Justin Kissel
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« Reply #141 on: August 29, 2012, 09:51:49 PM »

Please go.
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88Devin12
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« Reply #142 on: August 29, 2012, 09:52:35 PM »

Please go.

Wasn't this guy banned? Or is he the guy I remember from ChristianForums? I can't remember.
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« Reply #143 on: August 29, 2012, 09:59:02 PM »

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88Devin12
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« Reply #144 on: August 29, 2012, 10:10:18 PM »

Yup its the same guy:

http://www.christianforums.com/search.php?searchid=5217763

He was banned on ChristianForums for doing the same thing, and apparently had returned with a different name. Now he is here. Fear the Sphinx!
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Basil 320
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« Reply #145 on: August 30, 2012, 12:47:20 AM »

The Tsar's fortune was disposed of during WWI as it was used by the Tsarina for medical supplies and support of the hospitals to care for the wounded from the front.

The Tsars fortune consisted of all the lands he owned throughout Russia, and which he had plans on distributing to the peasants, as well as jewelry.  He had a minister whose job it was to buy jewels to give as wedding gifts.  When his niece Irini married Felix Yussopov, she was given a bag of diamonds.  When the war broke out, he gave order that everyone was to bring their money back into Russia.   

His aunt, the Grand Duchess Vladimir, had a whole room with closets from top to bottom only for her jewels.  Someone said that when they greeted Tsar Alexander III's wife Dagmar at a ball for 5,000 people, she was sparkling all over with  diamonds that were sewn on her dress.

So what happened to them.  Well when Felix went back to his palace to try to take his jewels, they were gone, stolen by the bolsheviks no doubt, as were the cars, etc.  The only one that managed to get them out was the Grand Duchess Vladimir, and she was the only one that managed to ride out in style with her private train, something that even generals were not able to do.

Dagmar, Nicholas II's mother and the other Romonovs that were in the Crimea were saved because of friction between different factions of Bolsheviks.  When her brother in law the King of England sent a ship to retrieve her, she refused to go unless everyone else was taken as well, so he was forced to send more ships.  Interesting stuff huh!

Yes, very interesting. 

However, I still maintain that the Tsar's cash accounts were devoted to medical assistance to the wounded and ailing soldiers.
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Zenovia
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« Reply #146 on: August 30, 2012, 01:58:49 AM »

Please go.

He's funny! Grin
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« Reply #147 on: September 03, 2012, 03:13:04 AM »

 angel

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« Reply #148 on: September 03, 2012, 05:04:51 AM »

angel


Shows how short Metropolitan Hilarion is. Grin
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« Reply #149 on: September 03, 2012, 11:28:36 AM »

Can someone tell me who everyone is in that pic? I know +hilarion is in the middle, +Jonah on his left, +Benjamin on his far right, and I think +Tikhon is next. The others I don't know.
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« Reply #150 on: September 03, 2012, 12:18:21 PM »

Second from the left (with the 'off-the-shoulder' Omophorion in the San Francisco style  Wink ) is Archbishop Kirill of SF.  His subdeacon must have missed a button, or he is having a 'wardrobe malfunction' of the ecclesiastical variety...

angel


Shows how short Metropolitan Hilarion is. Grin
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« Reply #151 on: September 03, 2012, 12:23:55 PM »

Can someone tell me who everyone is in that pic? I know +hilarion is in the middle, +Jonah on his left, +Benjamin on his far right, and I think +Tikhon is next. The others I don't know.

On his right is Metropolitan Hilarion too. And on his far right - Archbishop Justinian.
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« Reply #152 on: September 04, 2012, 06:22:07 PM »

Ok...who are the 2 guys on the far right of the picture, left of met. Jonah ?
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« Reply #153 on: September 04, 2012, 06:39:45 PM »

Ok...who are the 2 guys on the far right of the picture, left of met. Jonah ?

1st to Met. JONAH's right is Abp. JUSTINIAN (MP in US), then Bp. FEODOSI (Vicar Bp. to Abp. KIRILL - title of Bp. of Seattle, but he usually resides in SF.  He used to sing 2nd Tenor with the St. John's Men's Choir).
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« Reply #154 on: September 04, 2012, 06:45:19 PM »

From (our) left to right:

+BENJAMIN (OCA), +KIRILL (ROCOR), +HILARION (ROCOR), +HILARION (MP), +JONAH (OCA), +JUSTINIAN (MP-USA), and +FEODOSI (ROCOR)

Anymore questions?  I wasn't at that HDL, but was at Ft. Ross.  Of those in the above list, +BENJAMIN, +HILARION x2, +JUSTINIAN and +FEODOSI were there.  +KIRILL had a stomach bug.  Also at Ft. Ross were +GERASIMOS (GOA-SF) and some Bulgarian bishop.
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« Reply #155 on: October 23, 2012, 12:35:15 PM »

Please ask the Blessed Theotokos and Ever-Virgin, Mary to intercede (and intervene) in the upcoming OCA All-American Council in Parma, OH on Nov. 13. May God's will be done and may correction, discipline, healing and His peace ensue. Talebearing and exasperation are not fruits of the Spirit.

Forgive me, a sinner.

Ivanov
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« Reply #156 on: October 23, 2012, 04:45:45 PM »

Please ask the Blessed Theotokos and Ever-Virgin, Mary to intercede (and intervene) in the upcoming OCA All-American Council in Parma, OH on Nov. 13. May God's will be done and may correction, discipline, healing and His peace ensue. Talebearing and exasperation are not fruits of the Spirit.

Forgive me, a sinner.

Ivanov

Amen.
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