Topic: Dark age of Church?

[walter1234]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KsHSbBxjAOk&feature=related

1.How do Orthodox Christian understand the Dark age of Church?

2. Protestant Christian like to say that after Constantine the Great make Catholic Church as the country's religion in 3 rd century, the Christians live with peace and start to fall. They start to make the idols and workship them. They start to play the power struggle,alienate the Church from the truth. THus,THe Church experience the Dark Age in 4th century - 15 th century.Until 16 th Century, Martin Luther separate from Fallen Catholic Church and return the Church  to the right path. God use Martin Lurther and Protestant Christian to lead the Church away from Dark Age which had been over 1100-1200 years. Do Orthodox Christian agree with it?

[LBK]

Not at all!!!! Nothing could be further from the truth.

[Cyrillic]

There is no such thing as the 'Dark Ages'. Besides, the Roman Empire still existed and not much did change there. In the 8th and 9th century the Byzantines were making mechanical lions who roared and other such things.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KsHSbBxjAOk&feature=related

2. Protestant Christian like to say that after Constantine the Great make Catholic Church as the country's religion in 3 rd century, the Christians live with peace and start to fall. They start to make the idols and workship them. They start to play the power struggle,alienate the Church from the truth. THus,THe Church experience the Dark Age in 4th century - 15 th century.Until 16 th Century, Martin Luther separate from Fallen Catholic Church and return the Church  to the right path. God use Martin Lurther and Protestant Christian to lead the Church away from Dark Age which had been over 1100-1200 years. Do Orthodox Christian agree with it?

Well, why would God let the Church be for 1200 years until a little-known german monk resurrects it? That idea is silly. The gates of hell will not overwhelm the Church (see Matthew 16:18), not even for one moment.

And no, idols were never approved or used by the Church.

[Αριστοκλής]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KsHSbBxjAOk&feature=related

1.How do Orthodox Christian understand the Dark age of Church?

2. Protestant Christian like to say that after Constantine the Great make Catholic Church as the country's religion in 3 rd century, the Christians live with peace and start to fall. They start to make the idols and workship them. They start to play the power struggle,alienate the Church from the truth. THus,THe Church experience the Dark Age in 4th century - 15 th century.Until 16 th Century, Martin Luther separate from Fallen Catholic Church and return the Church  to the right path. God use Martin Lurther and Protestant Christian to lead the Church away from Dark Age which had been over 1100-1200 years. Do Orthodox Christian agree with it?

Protestant myths.

[walter1234]

Protestant Christians think that the Church had gone a wrong path for 1300 years(e.g. from 3rd century to 16th century). Until 16 th century, God used the Martin Luther to form Protestant , and used him to correct the mistake of Church and lead the church to go to the right path. Thus, Protestant is the only true Church in the world!!

Quite strange!!!

[jmbejdl]

Protestant Christians think that the Church had gone a wrong path for 1300 years(e.g. from 3rd century to 16th century). Until 16 th century, God used the Martin Luther to form Protestant , and used him to correct the mistake of Church and lead the church to go to the right path. Thus, Protestant is the only true Church in the world!!

Quite strange!!!

Except that there is no such thing as the Protestant church (it's splintered into thousands of separate groups) and that most of those who hold to such ideas as you describe would probably disagree vehemently with Luther himself. For instance on the veneration due the Theotokos.

James

[PeterTheAleut]

Protestant Christians think that the Church had gone a wrong path for 1300 years(e.g. from 3rd century to 16th century). Until 16 th century, God used the Martin Luther to form Protestant , and used him to correct the mistake of Church and lead the church to go to the right path. Thus, Protestant is the only true Church in the world!!

Quite strange!!!

These Protestants of whom you speak know nothing outside the Protestant-Catholic divide. They then project their image of the Roman Catholic Church of Luther's day and of the current day back into the first millennium with no knowledge of the Orthodox Church.

[katherineofdixie]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KsHSbBxjAOk&feature=related

1.How do Orthodox Christian understand the Dark age of Church?

2. Protestant Christian like to say that after Constantine the Great make Catholic Church as the country's religion in 3 rd century, the Christians live with peace and start to fall. They start to make the idols and workship them. They start to play the power struggle,alienate the Church from the truth. THus,THe Church experience the Dark Age in 4th century - 15 th century.Until 16 th Century, Martin Luther separate from Fallen Catholic Church and return the Church  to the right path. God use Martin Lurther and Protestant Christian to lead the Church away from Dark Age which had been over 1100-1200 years. Do Orthodox Christian agree with it?

That's simply Protestant propaganda. Among other things, St. Constantine did not make the Catholic Church as the country's religion. He recognized Christianity as a legal religion. Up until then, it had been against the law to be Christian.

[ialmisry]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KsHSbBxjAOk&feature=related

1.How do Orthodox Christian understand the Dark age of Church?

2. Protestant Christian like to say that after Constantine the Great make Catholic Church as the country's religion in 3 rd century, the Christians live with peace and start to fall. They start to make the idols and workship them. They start to play the power struggle,alienate the Church from the truth. THus,THe Church experience the Dark Age in 4th century - 15 th century.Until 16 th Century, Martin Luther separate from Fallen Catholic Church and return the Church  to the right path. God use Martin Lurther and Protestant Christian to lead the Church away from Dark Age which had been over 1100-1200 years. Do Orthodox Christian agree with it?

The Dark Age didn't come to us until 1453.

[walter1234]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KsHSbBxjAOk&feature=related

1.How do Orthodox Christian understand the Dark age of Church?

2. Protestant Christian like to say that after Constantine the Great make Catholic Church as the country's religion in 3 rd century, the Christians live with peace and start to fall. They start to make the idols and workship them. They start to play the power struggle,alienate the Church from the truth. THus,THe Church experience the Dark Age in 4th century - 15 th century.Until 16 th Century, Martin Luther separate from Fallen Catholic Church and return the Church  to the right path. God use Martin Lurther and Protestant Christian to lead the Church away from Dark Age which had been over 1100-1200 years. Do Orthodox Christian agree with it?

The Dark Age didn't come to us until 1453.

The Dark Age didn't come to Orthodox Church until 1453?

Do you mean that there was a dark age in Orthodox Church around 1453? What has Orthodox Church happened in this period?

[jmbejdl]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KsHSbBxjAOk&feature=related

1.How do Orthodox Christian understand the Dark age of Church?

2. Protestant Christian like to say that after Constantine the Great make Catholic Church as the country's religion in 3 rd century, the Christians live with peace and start to fall. They start to make the idols and workship them. They start to play the power struggle,alienate the Church from the truth. THus,THe Church experience the Dark Age in 4th century - 15 th century.Until 16 th Century, Martin Luther separate from Fallen Catholic Church and return the Church  to the right path. God use Martin Lurther and Protestant Christian to lead the Church away from Dark Age which had been over 1100-1200 years. Do Orthodox Christian agree with it?

The Dark Age didn't come to us until 1453.

The Dark Age didn't come to Orthodox Church until 1453?

Do you mean that there was a dark age in Orthodox Church around 1453? What has Orthodox Church happened in this period?

That's the year that Constantinople fell to the Ottoman Turks. It wasn't the Dark Ages as such (not that there really was any such thing even in western Europe). However, it certainly was a dark age for Orthodoxy as it pretty much left Moldova as the only free Orthodox state and that was pretty much in anarchy until Stefan cel Mare acceded to the throne 4 years later.

James

[ialmisry]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KsHSbBxjAOk&feature=related

1.How do Orthodox Christian understand the Dark age of Church?

2. Protestant Christian like to say that after Constantine the Great make Catholic Church as the country's religion in 3 rd century, the Christians live with peace and start to fall. They start to make the idols and workship them. They start to play the power struggle,alienate the Church from the truth. THus,THe Church experience the Dark Age in 4th century - 15 th century.Until 16 th Century, Martin Luther separate from Fallen Catholic Church and return the Church  to the right path. God use Martin Lurther and Protestant Christian to lead the Church away from Dark Age which had been over 1100-1200 years. Do Orthodox Christian agree with it?

The Dark Age didn't come to us until 1453.

The Dark Age didn't come to Orthodox Church until 1453?

Do you mean that there was a dark age in Orthodox Church around 1453? What has Orthodox Church happened in this period?

Just to add to what was already said: with the Turkocratia ("rule of Turks") there was a period of suppression of the Church in most areas, and a resulting struggling situation for her major institutions.

Btw, I should say 1461, the Fall of Trebizond.

[Iconodule]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KsHSbBxjAOk&feature=related

1.How do Orthodox Christian understand the Dark age of Church?

2. Protestant Christian like to say that after Constantine the Great make Catholic Church as the country's religion in 3 rd century, the Christians live with peace and start to fall. They start to make the idols and workship them. They start to play the power struggle,alienate the Church from the truth. THus,THe Church experience the Dark Age in 4th century - 15 th century.Until 16 th Century, Martin Luther separate from Fallen Catholic Church and return the Church  to the right path. God use Martin Lurther and Protestant Christian to lead the Church away from Dark Age which had been over 1100-1200 years. Do Orthodox Christian agree with it?

The Dark Age didn't come to us until 1453.

The Dark Age didn't come to Orthodox Church until 1453?

Do you mean that there was a dark age in Orthodox Church around 1453? What has Orthodox Church happened in this period?

That's the year that Constantinople fell to the Ottoman Turks. It wasn't the Dark Ages as such (not that there really was any such thing even in western Europe). However, it certainly was a dark age for Orthodoxy as it pretty much left Moldova as the only free Orthodox state and that was pretty much in anarchy until Stefan cel Mare acceded to the throne 4 years later.

James

The Church of Russia was doing fine, even under the Tatar yoke.

[Ansgar]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KsHSbBxjAOk&feature=related

1.How do Orthodox Christian understand the Dark age of Church?

2. Protestant Christian like to say that after Constantine the Great make Catholic Church as the country's religion in 3 rd century, the Christians live with peace and start to fall. They start to make the idols and workship them. They start to play the power struggle,alienate the Church from the truth. THus,THe Church experience the Dark Age in 4th century - 15 th century.Until 16 th Century, Martin Luther separate from Fallen Catholic Church and return the Church  to the right path. God use Martin Lurther and Protestant Christian to lead the Church away from Dark Age which had been over 1100-1200 years. Do Orthodox Christian agree with it?

The Dark Age didn't come to us until 1453.

The Dark Age didn't come to Orthodox Church until 1453?

Do you mean that there was a dark age in Orthodox Church around 1453? What has Orthodox Church happened in this period?

He refers to the fall of Constantinople, the capital of the Byzantine Empire which was orthodox. This event was followed by a period which some refer to as the age of captivity, where many orthodox christians lived under muslim domination.

I believe, there is no such thing as "the dark ages". The term was invented during the Age of Enlightenment where many thinkers and scientists saw religion ( and especially the catholic church) as something negative.

[Benjamin the Red]

What you're describing, walter, that Christianity died for 1,200 years, is called the "Great Apostasy" and it is complete and utter fiction on behalf of ignorant Protestants who assault the Roman Catholic Church, which little to no knowledge of the Orthodox...or church history at all, for that matter. Those who hold to the theory teach that all that is wrong in Roman Catholicism came about from St. Constantine, but the things they say are his fault were well established before the 4th century, such as:

-Clergy (St. Ignatius speaks about bishops, priests and deacons in the first-second century, St. Irenaeus shortly thereafter does the same)
-Veneration of saints (The Martyrdom of Polycarp and the text to the Theotokos hymn "beneath thy compassion" show veneration of saints over a century before Constantine)
-Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist (this is a biblical concept that is affirmed over and over by Church Fathers. Protestants wish to not see it, and so they do not)

The list goes on, but I think you'll get my point. The "great apostasy" is a great fabrication.

[mike]

What about V-VIIth centuries in Georgia, Xth century - present in Western Europe, XII-XIIIth centuries in the Middle East, XVth century in Greece, XVII-XVIIIth (or XVII-XXth) centuries in Eastern Europe), XVIII-XXth centuries in Russia?

You can find many "Dark Ages" depending from your POV.

[Azul]

Protestant Christians think that the Church had gone a wrong path for 1300 years(e.g. from 3rd century to 16th century). Until 16 th century, God used the Martin Luther to form Protestant , and used him to correct the mistake of Church and lead the church to go to the right path. Thus, Protestant is the only true Church in the world!!

Quite strange!!!

Which protestant?) there is a gazillion of protestant denominations.

[Happy Lutheran]

There was clearly a dark age for the Roman Catholic Church. How else can you explain the Crusades, The Inquisition, Selling Salvation, and many other things? It should be no suprise and should be celebrated that a group of reformers stood up against the Roman Catholic Church and tried to reform it. The reformers were outcasted and were killed/tortured or ordered to be killed/tortured by the Roman Church and Political Authorities. They felt the truth was in scripture and it was the only infallible truth we could trust, given their experiences with Rome it seems very reasonable to me. It's the Faith in Christ and the Holy Scriptures that the Gates of Hell would never prevail, not a human institution.

Saying that, when did the corruption start? Was it in the 4th Century? Was it around time of the Schism? Remember, Orthodox considered the Pope the 1st among equals and no doubt the Roman See and the Pope influenced Christianity from the 4th Century up until the Schism. That is why so many Protestants disregard the Orthodox claims of being the true church as they feel they were corrupted by Rome (not my opinion necessarily).

[katherineofdixie]

It should be no suprise and should be celebrated that a group of reformers stood up against the Roman Catholic Church and tried to reform it. The reformers were outcasted and were killed/tortured or ordered to be killed/tortured by the Roman Church and Political Authorities.

It should be no surprise that they did quite a bit of outcasting, killing and torturing themselves.

They felt the truth was in scripture and it was the only infallible truth we could trust, given their experiences with Rome it seems very reasonable to me.

Sure, ok, but whose truth? Luther's? Melanchton's? Calvin's? The Anabaptists's? John Knox's? You see?

It's the Faith in Christ and the Holy Scriptures that the Gates of Hell would never prevail, not a human institution.

That is your own interpretation. Btw, can you tell me where in Scripture you find that particular idea?

Saying that, when did the corruption start? Was it in the 4th Century? Was it around time of the Schism?

Ok, when? If you're going to say that the Church fell into error and corruption, don't you think you should be able to tell when it happened?

[Happy Lutheran]

Katherine - I'm showing a common opinion of Protestants in regard to the original post. I'm not looking to debate the points as I said "not my opinion necessarily".

[Ashman618]

What is the common response of a protestent when face with the question that Christian scripture as a whole did not always exist to not be prevailed against?

[katherineofdixie]

Katherine - I'm showing a common opinion of Protestants in regard to the original post. I'm not looking to debate the points as I said "not my opinion necessarily".

I don't understand. I'm pretty sure that, since many of us here are former Protestants, that we are fairly conversant with common Protestant opinions. They're just wrong, that's all.

[HabteSelassie]

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

There was clearly a dark age for the Roman Catholic Church. How else can you explain the Crusades, The Inquisition, Selling Salvation, and many other things? It should be no suprise and should be celebrated that a group of reformers stood up against the Roman Catholic Church and tried to reform it. The reformers were outcasted and were killed/tortured or ordered to be killed/tortured by the Roman Church and Political Authorities. They felt the truth was in scripture and it was the only infallible truth we could trust, given their experiences with Rome it seems very reasonable to me. It's the Faith in Christ and the Holy Scriptures that the Gates of Hell would never prevail, not a human institution.

Saying that, when did the corruption start? Was it in the 4th Century? Was it around time of the Schism? Remember, Orthodox considered the Pope the 1st among equals and no doubt the Roman See and the Pope influenced Christianity from the 4th Century up until the Schism. That is why so many Protestants disregard the Orthodox claims of being the true church as they feel they were corrupted by Rome (not my opinion necessarily).

Clearly we Orthodox have our qualms with the Crusades, but war(s) is complicated like that, however complex it is not a new thing to human history to isolate as one dark age or another.  War is war.  In regards to the Inquisition, modern academics who are free from the propaganda of Protestantism have began to understand that the scale of violence and death was greatly exaggerated.  Some scholars assert that Protestants in colonial New England actually killed more people the the entirety of the Spanish or French Inquisition periods.  As to the moral decline in the Catholic Church, corruption, heresy, and debauchery were never foreign within the Church, this is why we've spent 2000 years exposing and evicting such folks from leadership roles in our communities. To say that any of these things constitutes a Dark Age is fallacious.  The only Dark Age that Europe experienced was intellectual and economic, and indeed, even this has been greatly exaggerated considering the relative developments and continuity of differing societies and Empire across Europe, North Africa, and Asia-Minor. 

stay blessed,
habte selassie

[ialmisry]

It's the Faith in Christ and the Holy Scriptures that the Gates of Hell would never prevail, not a human institution.

Christ says in Holy Scripture that it is His Church, which by definition is an institution.

[Happy Lutheran]

In regards to the Inquisition, modern academics who are free from the propaganda of Protestantism have began to understand that the scale of violence and death was greatly exaggerated.  The only Dark Age that Europe experienced was intellectual and economic

It doesn't matter if it's 10's of thousands or millions. Torture and Murder of Christians for not obeting the Pope IS a dark age, especially in relation to the Church, since that is what this thread is about. You can spin it however you like.

[Ansgar]

In regards to the Inquisition, modern academics who are free from the propaganda of Protestantism have began to understand that the scale of violence and death was greatly exaggerated.  The only Dark Age that Europe experienced was intellectual and economic

It doesn't matter if it's 10's of thousands or millions. Torture and Murder of Christians for not obeting the Pope IS a dark age, especially in relation to the Church, since that is what this thread is about. You can spin it however you like.

In that case, couldn't all time periods be called "dark ages"?

[biro]

In regards to the Inquisition, modern academics who are free from the propaganda of Protestantism have began to understand that the scale of violence and death was greatly exaggerated.  The only Dark Age that Europe experienced was intellectual and economic

It doesn't matter if it's 10's of thousands or millions. Torture and Murder of Christians for not obeting the Pope IS a dark age, especially in relation to the Church, since that is what this thread is about. You can spin it however you like.

Funny how no one seems to remember Henry VIII's imposition of Anglicanism and sack of the monasteries in England, or the rise of the Protestant kingdoms in mainland Europe, and the many wars and deaths which resulted from those. German Civil War, anybody? Anybody? Hello?... Ah, forget it. When Roman Catholics do the killing, people remember. When they get killed, who cares?

[Happy Lutheran]

No one denies that many Protestants have been involved in atrocities. The difference is most Protestants don't believe they are the true infallible church of God. They believe the church was built on the confession of Christ. Those atrocities go hand in hand with why they would never think an institution run by humans could be the only way to truth.

[biro]

No one denies that many Protestants have been involved in atrocities. The difference is most Protestants don't believe they are the true infallible church of God. They believe the church was built on the confession of Christ. Those atrocities go hand in hand with why they would never think an institution run by humans could be the only way to truth.

Not true. You have never spoken to a fundamentalist, it seems. Each and every one of them says theirs is the true church and 'the only' one fit for salvation. And all the Protestants do, by implication, or else they wouldn't be Protestant.

[NicholasMyra]

never think an institution run by humans could be the only way to truth.

To which non-Human did God ever say,

"Sit at my right hand,

Until I make your enemies your footstool"?

[Ashman618]

If your gonna build your church on a confession..... Then the confession alone can't be the church cuz there must be something built on top of that, so what was built on that confession? Anyone have the answer?

[Fabio Leite]

No one denies that many Protestants have been involved in atrocities. The difference is most Protestants don't believe they are the true infallible church of God. They believe the church was built on the confession of Christ. Those atrocities go hand in hand with why they would never think an institution run by humans could be the only way to truth.

That's the fundamental error of protestantism. That God left us with an instruction manual and, hopefully, some inspiration from the Holy Spirit to interpret it and all the rest is human made.

There is not one iota in the Scriptures that support that.

What Jesus left behind was community, miraculously transformed into His own body through not only the guidance, but the very inhabitance of the Holy Spirit. This community includes everything that is human in it: ideas, feelings, traditions and institutions.

[Happy Lutheran]

If your gonna build your church on a confession..... Then the confession alone can't be the church cuz there must be something built on top of that, so what was built on that confession? Anyone have the answer?

The assembly of believers (Matthew 18:20)

[Fabio Leite]

What you call the "dark age" of the Romans is actually the process of their falling away from the Church. When Protestants started their movement they were trying to base their reform on an already mistaken conception of Church.. as institution, as something human built on a material infallible source of truth... just that instead of a man, they chose a book.

Now, as for when the Roman Church fell away, it is difficult to point out. I, personally, identify three phases: 1) Ascension of the Franks, who due to illiteracy and political agendas corrupted the theology and praxis of the Church. At this point the papacy still resisted; 2) The "Seculum Obscurum" when the Papacy itself fell to the proto-mafia of the region that would one day be Italy; this caused their moral and spiritual bankrupcy; 3) An already different creature altogether, Western Papacy engaged in the now famous Gregorian Reforms, which consolidated that separation and basically gave birth to the Renaissance and what we now understand as Modern West;

All the famous points like 1054, Photian Schism, Crusades and so on are, in my opinion, particular cases of these three periods that caused Rome to fall from ecclesiastical grace.

[Ashman618]

If your gonna build your church on a confession..... Then the confession alone can't be the church cuz there must be something built on top of that, so what was built on that confession? Anyone have the answer?

The assembly of believers (Matthew 18:20)

Well I don't think quoting scripture is ever a solution to this question, but for what is worth not everyone who gathers in His name is part of the church Matt 7:21

[Happy Lutheran]

No one denies that many Protestants have been involved in atrocities. The difference is most Protestants don't believe they are the true infallible church of God. They believe the church was built on the confession of Christ. Those atrocities go hand in hand with why they would never think an institution run by humans could be the only way to truth.

That's the fundamental error of protestantism. That God left us with an instruction manual and, hopefully, some inspiration from the Holy Spirit to interpret it and all the rest is human made.

There is not one iota in the Scriptures that support that.

What Jesus left behind was community, miraculously transformed into His own body through not only the guidance, but the very inhabitance of the Holy Spirit. This community includes everything that is human in it: ideas, feelings, traditions and institutions.

Wait, you're saying the Holy Scriptures are not a instruction manual and the Holy Spirit doesn't guide us? I let the Holy Spirit guide every aspect of my life. I know it guides me because when I listen and believe things work out and even in tough times I'm at ease. When I don't obey it typically does not work out. If God wants to send me to hell because I don't belong to the right church even though I believe, was baptized and put my trust in him, well, I guess I'm out of luck.

[Happy Lutheran]

If your gonna build your church on a confession..... Then the confession alone can't be the church cuz there must be something built on top of that, so what was built on that confession? Anyone have the answer?

The assembly of believers (Matthew 18:20)

Well I don't think quoting scripture is ever a solution to this question, but for what is worth not everyone who gathers in His name is part of the church Matt 7:21

And what is the will of the Father? Read John 6: 40

[mike]

Wait, you're saying the Holy Scriptures are not a instruction manual and the Holy Spirit doesn't guide us? I let the Holy Spirit guide every aspect of my life. I know it guides me because when I listen and believe things work out and even in tough times I'm at ease. When I don't obey it typically does not work out. If God wants to send me to hell because I don't belong to the right church even though I believe, was baptized and put my trust in him, well, I guess I'm out of luck.

Compare the amount of "I" to the amount of "church": 13:1 and the church is used in a negative sentence.

[Happy Lutheran]

Wait, you're saying the Holy Scriptures are not a instruction manual and the Holy Spirit doesn't guide us? I let the Holy Spirit guide every aspect of my life. I know it guides me because when I listen and believe things work out and even in tough times I'm at ease. When I don't obey it typically does not work out. If God wants to send me to hell because I don't belong to the right church even though I believe, was baptized and put my trust in him, well, I guess I'm out of luck.

Compare the amount of "I" to the amount of "church": 13:1 and the church is used in a negative sentence.

Yes, I am talking about my personal relationship with God. You don't have this?

[mike]

Wait, you're saying the Holy Scriptures are not a instruction manual and the Holy Spirit doesn't guide us? I let the Holy Spirit guide every aspect of my life. I know it guides me because when I listen and believe things work out and even in tough times I'm at ease. When I don't obey it typically does not work out. If God wants to send me to hell because I don't belong to the right church even though I believe, was baptized and put my trust in him, well, I guess I'm out of luck.

Compare the amount of "I" to the amount of "church": 13:1 and the church is used in a negative sentence.

Yes, I am talking about my personal relationship with God.

You are not. You are talking your about a supermarket of dogmas when you do shopping and choose what to believe.

[Happy Lutheran]

Wait, you're saying the Holy Scriptures are not a instruction manual and the Holy Spirit doesn't guide us? I let the Holy Spirit guide every aspect of my life. I know it guides me because when I listen and believe things work out and even in tough times I'm at ease. When I don't obey it typically does not work out. If God wants to send me to hell because I don't belong to the right church even though I believe, was baptized and put my trust in him, well, I guess I'm out of luck.

Compare the amount of "I" to the amount of "church": 13:1 and the church is used in a negative sentence.

Yes, I am talking about my personal relationship with God.

You are not. You are talking your about a supermarket of dogmas when you do shopping and choose what to believe.

No I am not, I'm discussing the reality of my situation. How terrible to say my testimony and my relationship is super market, disgusting and arrogant. Now answer the question, do YOU have a personal relationship with God through the Holy Spiriy you received in Baptism?

[Ashman618]

If your gonna build your church on a confession..... Then the confession alone can't be the church cuz there must be something built on top of that, so what was built on that confession? Anyone have the answer?

The assembly of believers (Matthew 18:20)

Well I don't think quoting scripture is ever a solution to this question, but for what is worth not everyone who gathers in His name is part of the church Matt 7:21

And what is the will of the Father? Read John 6: 40

I'm not an exegete (if that's how you spell it) so can anyone tell me if I should intrurpret "whoever believes in Him" as "Within His mystical body" or as something like "whoever says I believe in Jesus" or something totally different then either of those.

[Fabio Leite]

Wait, you're saying the Holy Scriptures are not a instruction manual and the Holy Spirit doesn't guide us? I let the Holy Spirit guide every aspect of my life. I know it guides me because when I listen and believe things work out and even in tough times I'm at ease. When I don't obey it typically does not work out. If God wants to send me to hell because I don't belong to the right church even though I believe, was baptized and put my trust in him, well, I guess I'm out of luck.

Let's start with the Holy Spirit.

God is not an exclusive God. He does not have preferences here or there. The Holy Spirit guides *everybody* to the degree each person allows his/her heart to listen to Him. God has not abandoned non-Christians.

Now you say that you believe. What exactly?

Do you believe the promise of God that bread and wine would be His flesh and blood and only those who ate His flesh and drank His blood would be saved?

Do you believe that it was through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit that the evangelist Luke described the words of Isabel to Mary: "Who am I, that comes to me the Mother of my Lord?"

Do you believe that Jesus transformed that apostolic community into His own body *despite of* their general desbelief, so great that even right before His ascension they were asking who would be first among them (so much for papal claims here)?

Do you believe that Jesus gave the keys to the kingdom to the Apostles and that He did not lay it in a book? And that He promised that He would be with this community until the end of times and it would never be defeated by the gates of Hell?

Because you see, it is true that you, as any non-Christian, hear God as much as your heart allows. But God did not promise simply that He would guide us. He would not incarnate just to inspire and guide us. He does that, but He accomplished much more.

[Happy Lutheran]

Supermarket of Dogmas?

Ephesians 3:16-17
New International Version (NIV)
16 I pray that out of his glorious riches he may strengthen you with power through his Spirit in your inner being, 17 so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith. And I pray that you, being rooted and established in love,

Colossians 1:27
King James Version (KJV)
27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:


Phillippians 2 13
13 for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose.

John 14:15-17
King James Version (KJV)
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

1 Corinthians 3:16
King James Version (KJV)
16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

2 Corinthians 13:5
King James Version (KJV)
5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

Galatians 2:20
King James Version (KJV)
20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Ephesians 1:13
King James Version (KJV)
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

[akimori makoto]

I do not understand the above.

The epistles quoted were addressed to local churches, not individuals.

If the point is that we are meant to have a personal relationship with God, then I am sure nobody here disagrees.