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Author Topic: Dark age of Church?  (Read 3393 times) Average Rating: 0
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walter1234
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« on: October 24, 2012, 05:38:22 AM »

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1.How do Orthodox Christian understand the Dark age of Church?

2. Protestant Christian like to say that after Constantine the Great make Catholic Church as the country's religion in 3 rd century, the Christians live with peace and start to fall. They start to make the idols and workship them. They start to play the power struggle,alienate the Church from the truth. THus,THe Church experience the Dark Age in 4th century - 15 th century.Until 16 th Century, Martin Luther separate from Fallen Catholic Church and return the Church  to the right path. God use Martin Lurther and Protestant Christian to lead the Church away from Dark Age which had been over 1100-1200 years. Do Orthodox Christian agree with it?
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« Reply #1 on: October 24, 2012, 05:43:15 AM »

Not at all!!!! Nothing could be further from the truth.
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« Reply #2 on: October 24, 2012, 05:44:40 AM »

There is no such thing as the 'Dark Ages'. Besides, the Roman Empire still existed and not much did change there. In the 8th and 9th century the Byzantines were making mechanical lions who roared and other such things.

Quote

2. Protestant Christian like to say that after Constantine the Great make Catholic Church as the country's religion in 3 rd century, the Christians live with peace and start to fall. They start to make the idols and workship them. They start to play the power struggle,alienate the Church from the truth. THus,THe Church experience the Dark Age in 4th century - 15 th century.Until 16 th Century, Martin Luther separate from Fallen Catholic Church and return the Church  to the right path. God use Martin Lurther and Protestant Christian to lead the Church away from Dark Age which had been over 1100-1200 years. Do Orthodox Christian agree with it?

Well, why would God let the Church be for 1200 years until a little-known german monk resurrects it? That idea is silly. The gates of hell will not overwhelm the Church (see Matthew 16:18), not even for one moment.

And no, idols were never approved or used by the Church.
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« Reply #3 on: October 24, 2012, 05:49:57 AM »

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1.How do Orthodox Christian understand the Dark age of Church?

2. Protestant Christian like to say that after Constantine the Great make Catholic Church as the country's religion in 3 rd century, the Christians live with peace and start to fall. They start to make the idols and workship them. They start to play the power struggle,alienate the Church from the truth. THus,THe Church experience the Dark Age in 4th century - 15 th century.Until 16 th Century, Martin Luther separate from Fallen Catholic Church and return the Church  to the right path. God use Martin Lurther and Protestant Christian to lead the Church away from Dark Age which had been over 1100-1200 years. Do Orthodox Christian agree with it?

Protestant myths.
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« Reply #4 on: October 24, 2012, 06:34:06 AM »

Protestant Christians think that the Church had gone a wrong path for 1300 years(e.g. from 3rd century to 16th century). Until 16 th century, God used the Martin Luther to form Protestant , and used him to correct the mistake of Church and lead the church to go to the right path. Thus, Protestant is the only true Church in the world!!

Quite strange!!! angel angel Huh Huh
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« Reply #5 on: October 24, 2012, 07:08:49 AM »

Protestant Christians think that the Church had gone a wrong path for 1300 years(e.g. from 3rd century to 16th century). Until 16 th century, God used the Martin Luther to form Protestant , and used him to correct the mistake of Church and lead the church to go to the right path. Thus, Protestant is the only true Church in the world!!

Quite strange!!! angel angel Huh Huh

Except that there is no such thing as the Protestant church (it's splintered into thousands of separate groups) and that most of those who hold to such ideas as you describe would probably disagree vehemently with Luther himself. For instance on the veneration due the Theotokos.

James
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« Reply #6 on: October 24, 2012, 09:23:33 AM »

Protestant Christians think that the Church had gone a wrong path for 1300 years(e.g. from 3rd century to 16th century). Until 16 th century, God used the Martin Luther to form Protestant , and used him to correct the mistake of Church and lead the church to go to the right path. Thus, Protestant is the only true Church in the world!!

Quite strange!!! angel angel Huh Huh
These Protestants of whom you speak know nothing outside the Protestant-Catholic divide. They then project their image of the Roman Catholic Church of Luther's day and of the current day back into the first millennium with no knowledge of the Orthodox Church.
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« Reply #7 on: October 24, 2012, 10:05:48 AM »

Quote

1.How do Orthodox Christian understand the Dark age of Church?

2. Protestant Christian like to say that after Constantine the Great make Catholic Church as the country's religion in 3 rd century, the Christians live with peace and start to fall. They start to make the idols and workship them. They start to play the power struggle,alienate the Church from the truth. THus,THe Church experience the Dark Age in 4th century - 15 th century.Until 16 th Century, Martin Luther separate from Fallen Catholic Church and return the Church  to the right path. God use Martin Lurther and Protestant Christian to lead the Church away from Dark Age which had been over 1100-1200 years. Do Orthodox Christian agree with it?

That's simply Protestant propaganda. Among other things, St. Constantine did not make the Catholic Church as the country's religion. He recognized Christianity as a legal religion. Up until then, it had been against the law to be Christian.
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« Reply #8 on: October 24, 2012, 10:13:03 AM »

Quote

1.How do Orthodox Christian understand the Dark age of Church?

2. Protestant Christian like to say that after Constantine the Great make Catholic Church as the country's religion in 3 rd century, the Christians live with peace and start to fall. They start to make the idols and workship them. They start to play the power struggle,alienate the Church from the truth. THus,THe Church experience the Dark Age in 4th century - 15 th century.Until 16 th Century, Martin Luther separate from Fallen Catholic Church and return the Church  to the right path. God use Martin Lurther and Protestant Christian to lead the Church away from Dark Age which had been over 1100-1200 years. Do Orthodox Christian agree with it?
The Dark Age didn't come to us until 1453.
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« Reply #9 on: October 24, 2012, 11:51:33 AM »

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1.How do Orthodox Christian understand the Dark age of Church?

2. Protestant Christian like to say that after Constantine the Great make Catholic Church as the country's religion in 3 rd century, the Christians live with peace and start to fall. They start to make the idols and workship them. They start to play the power struggle,alienate the Church from the truth. THus,THe Church experience the Dark Age in 4th century - 15 th century.Until 16 th Century, Martin Luther separate from Fallen Catholic Church and return the Church  to the right path. God use Martin Lurther and Protestant Christian to lead the Church away from Dark Age which had been over 1100-1200 years. Do Orthodox Christian agree with it?


The Dark Age didn't come to us until 1453.

The Dark Age didn't come to Orthodox Church until 1453?

Do you mean that there was a dark age in Orthodox Church around 1453? What has Orthodox Church happened in this period?
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« Reply #10 on: October 24, 2012, 12:00:04 PM »

Quote

1.How do Orthodox Christian understand the Dark age of Church?

2. Protestant Christian like to say that after Constantine the Great make Catholic Church as the country's religion in 3 rd century, the Christians live with peace and start to fall. They start to make the idols and workship them. They start to play the power struggle,alienate the Church from the truth. THus,THe Church experience the Dark Age in 4th century - 15 th century.Until 16 th Century, Martin Luther separate from Fallen Catholic Church and return the Church  to the right path. God use Martin Lurther and Protestant Christian to lead the Church away from Dark Age which had been over 1100-1200 years. Do Orthodox Christian agree with it?


The Dark Age didn't come to us until 1453.

The Dark Age didn't come to Orthodox Church until 1453?

Do you mean that there was a dark age in Orthodox Church around 1453? What has Orthodox Church happened in this period?

That's the year that Constantinople fell to the Ottoman Turks. It wasn't the Dark Ages as such (not that there really was any such thing even in western Europe). However, it certainly was a dark age for Orthodoxy as it pretty much left Moldova as the only free Orthodox state and that was pretty much in anarchy until Stefan cel Mare acceded to the throne 4 years later.

James
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« Reply #11 on: October 24, 2012, 12:05:43 PM »

Quote

1.How do Orthodox Christian understand the Dark age of Church?

2. Protestant Christian like to say that after Constantine the Great make Catholic Church as the country's religion in 3 rd century, the Christians live with peace and start to fall. They start to make the idols and workship them. They start to play the power struggle,alienate the Church from the truth. THus,THe Church experience the Dark Age in 4th century - 15 th century.Until 16 th Century, Martin Luther separate from Fallen Catholic Church and return the Church  to the right path. God use Martin Lurther and Protestant Christian to lead the Church away from Dark Age which had been over 1100-1200 years. Do Orthodox Christian agree with it?


The Dark Age didn't come to us until 1453.

The Dark Age didn't come to Orthodox Church until 1453?

Do you mean that there was a dark age in Orthodox Church around 1453? What has Orthodox Church happened in this period?
Just to add to what was already said: with the Turkocratia ("rule of Turks") there was a period of suppression of the Church in most areas, and a resulting struggling situation for her major institutions.

Btw, I should say 1461, the Fall of Trebizond.
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« Reply #12 on: October 24, 2012, 12:08:31 PM »

Quote

1.How do Orthodox Christian understand the Dark age of Church?

2. Protestant Christian like to say that after Constantine the Great make Catholic Church as the country's religion in 3 rd century, the Christians live with peace and start to fall. They start to make the idols and workship them. They start to play the power struggle,alienate the Church from the truth. THus,THe Church experience the Dark Age in 4th century - 15 th century.Until 16 th Century, Martin Luther separate from Fallen Catholic Church and return the Church  to the right path. God use Martin Lurther and Protestant Christian to lead the Church away from Dark Age which had been over 1100-1200 years. Do Orthodox Christian agree with it?


The Dark Age didn't come to us until 1453.

The Dark Age didn't come to Orthodox Church until 1453?

Do you mean that there was a dark age in Orthodox Church around 1453? What has Orthodox Church happened in this period?

That's the year that Constantinople fell to the Ottoman Turks. It wasn't the Dark Ages as such (not that there really was any such thing even in western Europe). However, it certainly was a dark age for Orthodoxy as it pretty much left Moldova as the only free Orthodox state and that was pretty much in anarchy until Stefan cel Mare acceded to the throne 4 years later.

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« Reply #13 on: October 24, 2012, 12:10:53 PM »

Quote

1.How do Orthodox Christian understand the Dark age of Church?

2. Protestant Christian like to say that after Constantine the Great make Catholic Church as the country's religion in 3 rd century, the Christians live with peace and start to fall. They start to make the idols and workship them. They start to play the power struggle,alienate the Church from the truth. THus,THe Church experience the Dark Age in 4th century - 15 th century.Until 16 th Century, Martin Luther separate from Fallen Catholic Church and return the Church  to the right path. God use Martin Lurther and Protestant Christian to lead the Church away from Dark Age which had been over 1100-1200 years. Do Orthodox Christian agree with it?


The Dark Age didn't come to us until 1453.

The Dark Age didn't come to Orthodox Church until 1453?

Do you mean that there was a dark age in Orthodox Church around 1453? What has Orthodox Church happened in this period?
He refers to the fall of Constantinople, the capital of the Byzantine Empire which was orthodox. This event was followed by a period which some refer to as the age of captivity, where many orthodox christians lived under muslim domination.

I believe, there is no such thing as "the dark ages". The term was invented during the Age of Enlightenment where many thinkers and scientists saw religion ( and especially the catholic church) as something negative.
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« Reply #14 on: October 24, 2012, 01:13:18 PM »

What you're describing, walter, that Christianity died for 1,200 years, is called the "Great Apostasy" and it is complete and utter fiction on behalf of ignorant Protestants who assault the Roman Catholic Church, which little to no knowledge of the Orthodox...or church history at all, for that matter. Those who hold to the theory teach that all that is wrong in Roman Catholicism came about from St. Constantine, but the things they say are his fault were well established before the 4th century, such as:

-Clergy (St. Ignatius speaks about bishops, priests and deacons in the first-second century, St. Irenaeus shortly thereafter does the same)
-Veneration of saints (The Martyrdom of Polycarp and the text to the Theotokos hymn "beneath thy compassion" show veneration of saints over a century before Constantine)
-Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist (this is a biblical concept that is affirmed over and over by Church Fathers. Protestants wish to not see it, and so they do not)

The list goes on, but I think you'll get my point. The "great apostasy" is a great fabrication.
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« Reply #15 on: October 24, 2012, 01:45:37 PM »

What about V-VIIth centuries in Georgia, Xth century - present in Western Europe, XII-XIIIth centuries in the Middle East, XVth century in Greece, XVII-XVIIIth (or XVII-XXth) centuries in Eastern Europe), XVIII-XXth centuries in Russia?

You can find many "Dark Ages" depending from your POV.
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« Reply #16 on: October 24, 2012, 02:34:02 PM »

Protestant Christians think that the Church had gone a wrong path for 1300 years(e.g. from 3rd century to 16th century). Until 16 th century, God used the Martin Luther to form Protestant , and used him to correct the mistake of Church and lead the church to go to the right path. Thus, Protestant is the only true Church in the world!!

Quite strange!!! angel angel Huh Huh

Which protestant?Smiley) there is a gazillion of protestant denominations.
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« Reply #17 on: October 24, 2012, 03:57:09 PM »

There was clearly a dark age for the Roman Catholic Church. How else can you explain the Crusades, The Inquisition, Selling Salvation, and many other things? It should be no suprise and should be celebrated that a group of reformers stood up against the Roman Catholic Church and tried to reform it. The reformers were outcasted and were killed/tortured or ordered to be killed/tortured by the Roman Church and Political Authorities. They felt the truth was in scripture and it was the only infallible truth we could trust, given their experiences with Rome it seems very reasonable to me. It's the Faith in Christ and the Holy Scriptures that the Gates of Hell would never prevail, not a human institution.

Saying that, when did the corruption start? Was it in the 4th Century? Was it around time of the Schism? Remember, Orthodox considered the Pope the 1st among equals and no doubt the Roman See and the Pope influenced Christianity from the 4th Century up until the Schism. That is why so many Protestants disregard the Orthodox claims of being the true church as they feel they were corrupted by Rome (not my opinion necessarily).
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« Reply #18 on: October 24, 2012, 04:03:14 PM »

It should be no suprise and should be celebrated that a group of reformers stood up against the Roman Catholic Church and tried to reform it. The reformers were outcasted and were killed/tortured or ordered to be killed/tortured by the Roman Church and Political Authorities.

It should be no surprise that they did quite a bit of outcasting, killing and torturing themselves.

Quote
They felt the truth was in scripture and it was the only infallible truth we could trust, given their experiences with Rome it seems very reasonable to me.
Sure, ok, but whose truth? Luther's? Melanchton's? Calvin's? The Anabaptists's? John Knox's? You see?

Quote
It's the Faith in Christ and the Holy Scriptures that the Gates of Hell would never prevail, not a human institution.

That is your own interpretation. Btw, can you tell me where in Scripture you find that particular idea?

Quote
Saying that, when did the corruption start? Was it in the 4th Century? Was it around time of the Schism?

Ok, when? If you're going to say that the Church fell into error and corruption, don't you think you should be able to tell when it happened?
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« Reply #19 on: October 24, 2012, 04:09:45 PM »

Katherine - I'm showing a common opinion of Protestants in regard to the original post. I'm not looking to debate the points as I said "not my opinion necessarily".
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« Reply #20 on: October 24, 2012, 04:57:26 PM »

What is the common response of a protestent when face with the question that Christian scripture as a whole did not always exist to not be prevailed against?
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« Reply #21 on: October 24, 2012, 05:23:48 PM »

Katherine - I'm showing a common opinion of Protestants in regard to the original post. I'm not looking to debate the points as I said "not my opinion necessarily".

I don't understand. I'm pretty sure that, since many of us here are former Protestants, that we are fairly conversant with common Protestant opinions. They're just wrong, that's all.
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« Reply #22 on: October 24, 2012, 05:32:30 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

There was clearly a dark age for the Roman Catholic Church. How else can you explain the Crusades, The Inquisition, Selling Salvation, and many other things? It should be no suprise and should be celebrated that a group of reformers stood up against the Roman Catholic Church and tried to reform it. The reformers were outcasted and were killed/tortured or ordered to be killed/tortured by the Roman Church and Political Authorities. They felt the truth was in scripture and it was the only infallible truth we could trust, given their experiences with Rome it seems very reasonable to me. It's the Faith in Christ and the Holy Scriptures that the Gates of Hell would never prevail, not a human institution.

Saying that, when did the corruption start? Was it in the 4th Century? Was it around time of the Schism? Remember, Orthodox considered the Pope the 1st among equals and no doubt the Roman See and the Pope influenced Christianity from the 4th Century up until the Schism. That is why so many Protestants disregard the Orthodox claims of being the true church as they feel they were corrupted by Rome (not my opinion necessarily).

Clearly we Orthodox have our qualms with the Crusades, but war(s) is complicated like that, however complex it is not a new thing to human history to isolate as one dark age or another.  War is war.  In regards to the Inquisition, modern academics who are free from the propaganda of Protestantism have began to understand that the scale of violence and death was greatly exaggerated.  Some scholars assert that Protestants in colonial New England actually killed more people the the entirety of the Spanish or French Inquisition periods.  As to the moral decline in the Catholic Church, corruption, heresy, and debauchery were never foreign within the Church, this is why we've spent 2000 years exposing and evicting such folks from leadership roles in our communities. To say that any of these things constitutes a Dark Age is fallacious.  The only Dark Age that Europe experienced was intellectual and economic, and indeed, even this has been greatly exaggerated considering the relative developments and continuity of differing societies and Empire across Europe, North Africa, and Asia-Minor. 

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« Reply #23 on: October 24, 2012, 05:54:26 PM »

It's the Faith in Christ and the Holy Scriptures that the Gates of Hell would never prevail, not a human institution.
Christ says in Holy Scripture that it is His Church, which by definition is an institution.
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« Reply #24 on: October 24, 2012, 06:09:46 PM »

In regards to the Inquisition, modern academics who are free from the propaganda of Protestantism have began to understand that the scale of violence and death was greatly exaggerated.  The only Dark Age that Europe experienced was intellectual and economic

It doesn't matter if it's 10's of thousands or millions. Torture and Murder of Christians for not obeting the Pope IS a dark age, especially in relation to the Church, since that is what this thread is about. You can spin it however you like.
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« Reply #25 on: October 24, 2012, 06:15:29 PM »

In regards to the Inquisition, modern academics who are free from the propaganda of Protestantism have began to understand that the scale of violence and death was greatly exaggerated.  The only Dark Age that Europe experienced was intellectual and economic

It doesn't matter if it's 10's of thousands or millions. Torture and Murder of Christians for not obeting the Pope IS a dark age, especially in relation to the Church, since that is what this thread is about. You can spin it however you like.

In that case, couldn't all time periods be called "dark ages"?
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« Reply #26 on: October 24, 2012, 06:19:00 PM »

In regards to the Inquisition, modern academics who are free from the propaganda of Protestantism have began to understand that the scale of violence and death was greatly exaggerated.  The only Dark Age that Europe experienced was intellectual and economic

It doesn't matter if it's 10's of thousands or millions. Torture and Murder of Christians for not obeting the Pope IS a dark age, especially in relation to the Church, since that is what this thread is about. You can spin it however you like.

Funny how no one seems to remember Henry VIII's imposition of Anglicanism and sack of the monasteries in England, or the rise of the Protestant kingdoms in mainland Europe, and the many wars and deaths which resulted from those. German Civil War, anybody? Anybody? Hello?... Ah, forget it. When Roman Catholics do the killing, people remember. When they get killed, who cares?
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« Reply #27 on: October 24, 2012, 06:23:45 PM »

No one denies that many Protestants have been involved in atrocities. The difference is most Protestants don't believe they are the true infallible church of God. They believe the church was built on the confession of Christ. Those atrocities go hand in hand with why they would never think an institution run by humans could be the only way to truth.
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« Reply #28 on: October 24, 2012, 06:25:33 PM »

No one denies that many Protestants have been involved in atrocities. The difference is most Protestants don't believe they are the true infallible church of God. They believe the church was built on the confession of Christ. Those atrocities go hand in hand with why they would never think an institution run by humans could be the only way to truth.

Not true. You have never spoken to a fundamentalist, it seems. Each and every one of them says theirs is the true church and 'the only' one fit for salvation. And all the Protestants do, by implication, or else they wouldn't be Protestant.

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« Reply #29 on: October 24, 2012, 06:30:54 PM »

never think an institution run by humans could be the only way to truth.

To which non-Human did God ever say,

"Sit at my right hand,

Until I make your enemies your footstool"?
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« Reply #30 on: October 24, 2012, 06:39:12 PM »

If your gonna build your church on a confession..... Then the confession alone can't be the church cuz there must be something built on top of that, so what was built on that confession? Anyone have the answer?
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« Reply #31 on: October 24, 2012, 06:41:12 PM »

No one denies that many Protestants have been involved in atrocities. The difference is most Protestants don't believe they are the true infallible church of God. They believe the church was built on the confession of Christ. Those atrocities go hand in hand with why they would never think an institution run by humans could be the only way to truth.

That's the fundamental error of protestantism. That God left us with an instruction manual and, hopefully, some inspiration from the Holy Spirit to interpret it and all the rest is human made.

There is not one iota in the Scriptures that support that.

What Jesus left behind was community, miraculously transformed into His own body through not only the guidance, but the very inhabitance of the Holy Spirit. This community includes everything that is human in it: ideas, feelings, traditions and institutions.

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« Reply #32 on: October 24, 2012, 06:44:01 PM »

If your gonna build your church on a confession..... Then the confession alone can't be the church cuz there must be something built on top of that, so what was built on that confession? Anyone have the answer?

The assembly of believers (Matthew 18:20)
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« Reply #33 on: October 24, 2012, 06:49:23 PM »

What you call the "dark age" of the Romans is actually the process of their falling away from the Church. When Protestants started their movement they were trying to base their reform on an already mistaken conception of Church.. as institution, as something human built on a material infallible source of truth... just that instead of a man, they chose a book.

Now, as for when the Roman Church fell away, it is difficult to point out. I, personally, identify three phases: 1) Ascension of the Franks, who due to illiteracy and political agendas corrupted the theology and praxis of the Church. At this point the papacy still resisted; 2) The "Seculum Obscurum" when the Papacy itself fell to the proto-mafia of the region that would one day be Italy; this caused their moral and spiritual bankrupcy; 3) An already different creature altogether, Western Papacy engaged in the now famous Gregorian Reforms, which consolidated that separation and basically gave birth to the Renaissance and what we now understand as Modern West;

All the famous points like 1054, Photian Schism, Crusades and so on are, in my opinion, particular cases of these three periods that caused Rome to fall from ecclesiastical grace.
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« Reply #34 on: October 24, 2012, 06:59:07 PM »

If your gonna build your church on a confession..... Then the confession alone can't be the church cuz there must be something built on top of that, so what was built on that confession? Anyone have the answer?

The assembly of believers (Matthew 18:20)

Well I don't think quoting scripture is ever a solution to this question, but for what is worth not everyone who gathers in His name is part of the church Matt 7:21
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« Reply #35 on: October 24, 2012, 07:07:03 PM »

No one denies that many Protestants have been involved in atrocities. The difference is most Protestants don't believe they are the true infallible church of God. They believe the church was built on the confession of Christ. Those atrocities go hand in hand with why they would never think an institution run by humans could be the only way to truth.

That's the fundamental error of protestantism. That God left us with an instruction manual and, hopefully, some inspiration from the Holy Spirit to interpret it and all the rest is human made.

There is not one iota in the Scriptures that support that.

What Jesus left behind was community, miraculously transformed into His own body through not only the guidance, but the very inhabitance of the Holy Spirit. This community includes everything that is human in it: ideas, feelings, traditions and institutions.



Wait, you're saying the Holy Scriptures are not a instruction manual and the Holy Spirit doesn't guide us? I let the Holy Spirit guide every aspect of my life. I know it guides me because when I listen and believe things work out and even in tough times I'm at ease. When I don't obey it typically does not work out. If God wants to send me to hell because I don't belong to the right church even though I believe, was baptized and put my trust in him, well, I guess I'm out of luck.
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« Reply #36 on: October 24, 2012, 07:13:32 PM »

If your gonna build your church on a confession..... Then the confession alone can't be the church cuz there must be something built on top of that, so what was built on that confession? Anyone have the answer?

The assembly of believers (Matthew 18:20)

Well I don't think quoting scripture is ever a solution to this question, but for what is worth not everyone who gathers in His name is part of the church Matt 7:21


And what is the will of the Father? Read John 6: 40
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« Reply #37 on: October 24, 2012, 07:15:41 PM »

Wait, you're saying the Holy Scriptures are not a instruction manual and the Holy Spirit doesn't guide us? I let the Holy Spirit guide every aspect of my life. I know it guides me because when I listen and believe things work out and even in tough times I'm at ease. When I don't obey it typically does not work out. If God wants to send me to hell because I don't belong to the right church even though I believe, was baptized and put my trust in him, well, I guess I'm out of luck.

Compare the amount of "I" to the amount of "church": 13:1 and the church is used in a negative sentence.
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« Reply #38 on: October 24, 2012, 07:22:59 PM »

Wait, you're saying the Holy Scriptures are not a instruction manual and the Holy Spirit doesn't guide us? I let the Holy Spirit guide every aspect of my life. I know it guides me because when I listen and believe things work out and even in tough times I'm at ease. When I don't obey it typically does not work out. If God wants to send me to hell because I don't belong to the right church even though I believe, was baptized and put my trust in him, well, I guess I'm out of luck.

Compare the amount of "I" to the amount of "church": 13:1 and the church is used in a negative sentence.

Yes, I am talking about my personal relationship with God. You don't have this?
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« Reply #39 on: October 24, 2012, 07:28:51 PM »

Wait, you're saying the Holy Scriptures are not a instruction manual and the Holy Spirit doesn't guide us? I let the Holy Spirit guide every aspect of my life. I know it guides me because when I listen and believe things work out and even in tough times I'm at ease. When I don't obey it typically does not work out. If God wants to send me to hell because I don't belong to the right church even though I believe, was baptized and put my trust in him, well, I guess I'm out of luck.

Compare the amount of "I" to the amount of "church": 13:1 and the church is used in a negative sentence.

Yes, I am talking about my personal relationship with God.

You are not. You are talking your about a supermarket of dogmas when you do shopping and choose what to believe.
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« Reply #40 on: October 24, 2012, 07:33:48 PM »

Wait, you're saying the Holy Scriptures are not a instruction manual and the Holy Spirit doesn't guide us? I let the Holy Spirit guide every aspect of my life. I know it guides me because when I listen and believe things work out and even in tough times I'm at ease. When I don't obey it typically does not work out. If God wants to send me to hell because I don't belong to the right church even though I believe, was baptized and put my trust in him, well, I guess I'm out of luck.

Compare the amount of "I" to the amount of "church": 13:1 and the church is used in a negative sentence.

Yes, I am talking about my personal relationship with God.

You are not. You are talking your about a supermarket of dogmas when you do shopping and choose what to believe.

No I am not, I'm discussing the reality of my situation. How terrible to say my testimony and my relationship is super market, disgusting and arrogant. Now answer the question, do YOU have a personal relationship with God through the Holy Spiriy you received in Baptism?
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« Reply #41 on: October 24, 2012, 07:59:51 PM »

If your gonna build your church on a confession..... Then the confession alone can't be the church cuz there must be something built on top of that, so what was built on that confession? Anyone have the answer?

The assembly of believers (Matthew 18:20)

Well I don't think quoting scripture is ever a solution to this question, but for what is worth not everyone who gathers in His name is part of the church Matt 7:21


And what is the will of the Father? Read John 6: 40


I'm not an exegete (if that's how you spell it) so can anyone tell me if I should intrurpret "whoever believes in Him" as "Within His mystical body" or as something like "whoever says I believe in Jesus" or something totally different then either of those.
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« Reply #42 on: October 24, 2012, 08:05:26 PM »

Wait, you're saying the Holy Scriptures are not a instruction manual and the Holy Spirit doesn't guide us? I let the Holy Spirit guide every aspect of my life. I know it guides me because when I listen and believe things work out and even in tough times I'm at ease. When I don't obey it typically does not work out. If God wants to send me to hell because I don't belong to the right church even though I believe, was baptized and put my trust in him, well, I guess I'm out of luck.

Let's start with the Holy Spirit.

God is not an exclusive God. He does not have preferences here or there. The Holy Spirit guides *everybody* to the degree each person allows his/her heart to listen to Him. God has not abandoned non-Christians.

Now you say that you believe. What exactly?

Do you believe the promise of God that bread and wine would be His flesh and blood and only those who ate His flesh and drank His blood would be saved?

Do you believe that it was through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit that the evangelist Luke described the words of Isabel to Mary: "Who am I, that comes to me the Mother of my Lord?"

Do you believe that Jesus transformed that apostolic community into His own body *despite of* their general desbelief, so great that even right before His ascension they were asking who would be first among them (so much for papal claims here)?

Do you believe that Jesus gave the keys to the kingdom to the Apostles and that He did not lay it in a book? And that He promised that He would be with this community until the end of times and it would never be defeated by the gates of Hell?

Because you see, it is true that you, as any non-Christian, hear God as much as your heart allows. But God did not promise simply that He would guide us. He would not incarnate just to inspire and guide us. He does that, but He accomplished much more.

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« Reply #43 on: October 24, 2012, 08:34:30 PM »

Supermarket of Dogmas?

Ephesians 3:16-17
New International Version (NIV)
16 I pray that out of his glorious riches he may strengthen you with power through his Spirit in your inner being, 17 so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith. And I pray that you, being rooted and established in love,

Colossians 1:27
King James Version (KJV)
27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:


Phillippians 2 13
13 for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose.

John 14:15-17
King James Version (KJV)
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

1 Corinthians 3:16
King James Version (KJV)
16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

2 Corinthians 13:5
King James Version (KJV)
5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

Galatians 2:20
King James Version (KJV)
20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Ephesians 1:13
King James Version (KJV)
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
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« Reply #44 on: October 24, 2012, 08:36:37 PM »

I do not understand the above.

The epistles quoted were addressed to local churches, not individuals.

If the point is that we are meant to have a personal relationship with God, then I am sure nobody here disagrees.
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« Reply #45 on: October 24, 2012, 08:40:53 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Supermarket of Dogmas?



Please don't Bible Thump here, its not like in the Church we don't read the Bible, in fact, each Sunday we have an hour of prayer entirely devoted to the Word called the Liturgy of the Word Wink

Besides of which, I can thump back.

Quote
And we heard this voice which came from heaven when we were with Him on the holy mountain.

19 And so we have the prophetic word confirmed,[a] which you do well to heed as a light that shines in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts; 20 knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation,21 for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God[c] spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.
2 Peter 1:19-21

Further the Apostle Peter concludes:

Quote
speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.
2 Peter 3:16

Let alone the Apostolic tirade on self-asserting preachers and pastors, be they priests or Protestants alike in 2 Peter 2:1-15
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stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #46 on: October 24, 2012, 08:42:21 PM »

I do not understand the above.

The epistles quoted were addressed to local churches, not individuals.

If the point is that we are meant to have a personal relationship with God, then I am sure nobody here disagrees.

?? The Moderator, Mickal Kalina, said it was a supermarket of dogma when I stated I let the Holy Spirit guide me and it works in my life.

The Scriptures are and always will be meant for everybody, not specific churches they were sent to. God has foreknowledge of everything. He knew we would be literate, that scripture would be widely read around the world and in many cases (more than twice as much as Orthodox) from Protestants. You don't think he made sure he got what he wanted in there?
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« Reply #47 on: October 24, 2012, 08:52:43 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Supermarket of Dogmas?



Please don't Bible Thump here, its not like in the Church we don't read the Bible, in fact, each Sunday we have an hour of prayer entirely devoted to the Word called the Liturgy of the Word Wink

Besides of which, I can thump back.

Quote
And we heard this voice which came from heaven when we were with Him on the holy mountain.

19 And so we have the prophetic word confirmed,[a] which you do well to heed as a light that shines in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts; 20 knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation,21 for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God[c] spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.
2 Peter 1:19-21

Further the Apostle Peter concludes:

Quote
speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.
2 Peter 3:16

Let alone the Apostolic tirade on self-asserting preachers and pastors, be they priests or Protestants alike in 2 Peter 2:1-15
 police

stay blessed,
habte selassie

Of course the Scriptures were not the interpretation of the writter. They were written by the inspiration of God. I don't believe the words of Luke because I believe Luke's private interpretation. I believe it because I believe it was inspired by God.

About the Verse about Paul, people used his Scriptures to be sinful, they were twisting he scriptures for lawlessness. Do you consider mainsteam Protestantism sinful and lawless?
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« Reply #48 on: October 24, 2012, 08:59:01 PM »

When Christ prayed in the Garden that we all may be one he certainly had foreknowledge that it would not be that way yet he prayed for it anyway.  So can we really say that this current state of Christianity we have has the approval of God because of His foreknowledge. I would say based on His foreknowledge, that prayer is a direct disapproval? Does this make sense to anyone else?
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« Reply #49 on: October 24, 2012, 09:13:43 PM »

I do not understand the above.

The epistles quoted were addressed to local churches, not individuals.

If the point is that we are meant to have a personal relationship with God, then I am sure nobody here disagrees.

?? The Moderator, Mickal Kalina, said it was a supermarket of dogma when I stated I let the Holy Spirit guide me and it works in my life.

The Scriptures are and always will be meant for everybody, not specific churches they were sent to. God has foreknowledge of everything. He knew we would be literate, that scripture would be widely read around the world and in many cases (more than twice as much as Orthodox) from Protestants. You don't think he made sure he got what he wanted in there?

God didn't write the epistles, the Apostles did. The Church collectively found these particular epistles had a uniquely wide-ranging applicability beyond the original churches and a certain inspired character (while there were undoubtedly hundreds of other epistles that did not).

To imply God was acting as a puppeteer so the Apostles would produce a self-sufficient manual to all things is simply not true. That is a misunderstanding of what the Bible is and its role in the Church. To imply the Bible is all-encompassing is also not true. The scriptures are useful guides to help lead us to truth, but they are not The Truth unto themselves. (The Truth is a person.)

St John Chrysostom said in one of his sermons that the scriptures are a condescension to human weakness, not an inherent necessity. The Church would exist even if the Bible did not. We do not trust the Holy Spirit, so we have been given the Bible as a way to cross-reference the Holy Spirit's work. But He is not defined by the Book, rather the opposite.

We have the Church to help us navigate the waters. We all receive the Holy Spirit, who guides us all, but it is eminently clear that the episcopacy and priesthood receive special graces in accordance with their special responsibility. We are not all bishops, and that is where Protestantism falls down IMO. Every man becomes his own pope, with his own ability to infallibly channel the Holy Spirit.

We do have a personal relationship with Christ. It is consummated every time we take His Body into our body among His Body, the Church. I would say we do not have a private relationship with Christ, however, because we are all members of Him.
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« Reply #50 on: October 24, 2012, 09:24:58 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!



About the Verse about Paul, people used his Scriptures to be sinful, they were twisting he scriptures for lawlessness. Do you consider mainsteam Protestantism sinful and lawless?

By definition, Protestantism rejects both the Old Testament Law and also protests the Laws of the New Covenant found in the Tradition of the Church, to which the Bible is a facet, so yes, I would say that it is accurate assessment to call Protestantism lawless.  Is it sinful? Potentially, but that is not my place to say on an individual basis, but as an ideology, yes.

Quote
Of course the Scriptures were not the interpretation of the writter. They were written by the inspiration of God. I don't believe the words of Luke because I believe Luke's private interpretation. I believe it because I believe it was inspired by God.

You missed the point.  Apostle Peter is talking about folks who read the Scriptures on an individual way, interpreting the meanings for themselves but not in the context of either the Scriptures themselves or the Holy Tradition.  If they are guided away from the Church where the Scriptures come from, then Apostle Peter is arguing that they aren't following the Scriptures at all, because again, "no prophecy of the Scriptures is of any private interpretation."  If you are going to quote Scripture telling us it supports your views against the Tradition, we are naturally not going to be able to agree with you, or even really understand you.  Again, from our approach the Scriptures support the Tradition and the Tradition explains the Scriptures.  We don't try to interpret them on our own, we try to understand them in the context of themselves and of the Tradition to which they are a part of.

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #51 on: October 25, 2012, 12:55:08 AM »

Looks as if the so-called Dark Confused Age resides in Protestantism.
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« Reply #52 on: October 25, 2012, 03:48:18 AM »

Quote

1.How do Orthodox Christian understand the Dark age of Church?

2. Protestant Christian like to say that after Constantine the Great make Catholic Church as the country's religion in 3 rd century, the Christians live with peace and start to fall. They start to make the idols and workship them. They start to play the power struggle,alienate the Church from the truth. THus,THe Church experience the Dark Age in 4th century - 15 th century.Until 16 th Century, Martin Luther separate from Fallen Catholic Church and return the Church  to the right path. God use Martin Lurther and Protestant Christian to lead the Church away from Dark Age which had been over 1100-1200 years. Do Orthodox Christian agree with it?


The Dark Age didn't come to us until 1453.

The Dark Age didn't come to Orthodox Church until 1453?

Do you mean that there was a dark age in Orthodox Church around 1453? What has Orthodox Church happened in this period?

That's the year that Constantinople fell to the Ottoman Turks. It wasn't the Dark Ages as such (not that there really was any such thing even in western Europe). However, it certainly was a dark age for Orthodoxy as it pretty much left Moldova as the only free Orthodox state and that was pretty much in anarchy until Stefan cel Mare acceded to the throne 4 years later.

James

The Church of Russia was doing fine, even under the Tatar yoke.

But Russia wasn't free and the Tartars did create martyrs (see the icon I use as my avatar for an example of one, if from a slightly earlier period). For a while it looked like all of the Orthodox world would be under the rule of foreigners with foreign religions. During Stefan cel Mare's reign Moldova was pretty much the only free Orthodox state (Wallachia on and off arguably) and he was certainly the major patron at the time of the Church and especially Mt. Athos. There's no doubt that it was a bleak time for Orthodoxy all round. Of course, not much later Russia threw off the Tartars and Moldova became a vassal state of the Ottomans so the situation reversed.

James
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« Reply #53 on: October 25, 2012, 05:59:43 AM »

He knew we would be literate, that scripture would be widely read around the world and in many cases (more than twice as much as Orthodox) from Protestants.

Most people in the Empire were literate back then.

Quote
Ephesians 3:16-17
New International Version (NIV)
16 I pray that out of his glorious riches he may strengthen you with power through his Spirit in your inner being, 17 so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith. And I pray that you, being rooted and established in love,

Colossians 1:27
King James Version (KJV)
27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:


Phillippians 2 13
13 for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose.

John 14:15-17
King James Version (KJV)
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

1 Corinthians 3:16
King James Version (KJV)
16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

2 Corinthians 13:5
King James Version (KJV)
5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

Ephesians 1:13
King James Version (KJV)
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,


All of these are plural. Nothing here about the personal making of doctrines.
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« Reply #54 on: October 25, 2012, 07:28:56 AM »

He knew we would be literate, that scripture would be widely read around the world and in many cases (more than twice as much as Orthodox) from Protestants. You don't think he made sure he got what he wanted in there?

Orthodox have been reading the Scriptures for 2000 years. Protestants for just 500 hundred years. This means Orthodox have read it at least four times more than Protestant in time.

If you consider that while Protestants have to struggle with translations that necessarily demand interpretation, and that at least the Greeks, who are Orthodox, actually read the originals of the New Testament, and if they follow a stricter discipline, they read it every day, let's just double that number to account for the quality of reading. Then, considerin they have been reading it on an uninterrupted transmission and not from some rupture let's just double it again.

So in an index that measures quality and quantity of reading of the Bible the Church is at least 16 times better off then protestants.

Now let's consider that it was actually this same Church that created the canon of what was to be in the Bible and it was Luther who notoriously picked only the books that did not contradict his doctrines - thus putting his self-judgment above the inspiration of the Holy Spirit confirmed by 15 centuries of guidance to millions and millions of personal relationships with with God. One who actually creates a selection of books surely must know what he/she means by making those choices. So et's double it again for the Orthodox are readingthe books we have chosen to put together after all. So 32 times better at least. Wink
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« Reply #55 on: October 25, 2012, 08:20:34 AM »

I always get a kick out of Orthodox and Romans when you use scripture as an argument and let the scripture speak for itself they chime in what it really means and how it relates to the church and all other kinds of things the text isn't saying. Then they accuse you of self interpretation!  

All Baptised Christians date back 2,000 years. I was baptised by someone who was baptised etc all the way back (One Baptism etc).

Anyway, my participation in this thread has run its course, thanks for the friendly discussion from most of you.
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« Reply #56 on: October 25, 2012, 08:26:58 AM »

I always get a kick out of Orthodox and Romans when you use scripture as an argument and let the scripture speak for itself they chime in what it really means and how it relates to the church and all other kinds of things the text isn't saying. Then they accuse you of self interpretation!  

All Baptised Christians date back 2,000 years. I was baptised by someone who was baptised etc all the way back (One Baptism etc).

Anyway, my participation in this thread has run its course, thanks for the friendly discussion from most of you.

So you do not believe the keys were given to the Apostles or in Acts 10:47-48?
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« Reply #57 on: October 25, 2012, 10:08:10 AM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Supermarket of Dogmas?



Please don't Bible Thump here, its not like in the Church we don't read the Bible, in fact, each Sunday we have an hour of prayer entirely devoted to the Word called the Liturgy of the Word Wink

Besides of which, I can thump back.

Quote
And we heard this voice which came from heaven when we were with Him on the holy mountain.

19 And so we have the prophetic word confirmed,[a] which you do well to heed as a light that shines in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts; 20 knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation,21 for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God[c] spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.
2 Peter 1:19-21

Further the Apostle Peter concludes:

Quote
speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.
2 Peter 3:16

Let alone the Apostolic tirade on self-asserting preachers and pastors, be they priests or Protestants alike in 2 Peter 2:1-15
 police

stay blessed,
habte selassie

Of course the Scriptures were not the interpretation of the writter. They were written by the inspiration of God. I don't believe the words of Luke because I believe Luke's private interpretation. I believe it because I believe it was inspired by God.

About the Verse about Paul, people used his Scriptures to be sinful, they were twisting he scriptures for lawlessness. Do you consider mainsteam Protestantism sinful and lawless?

Again ,it is all depend all our interpretation. It's all depend on  how we interpret 2 Peter 1:19-21.

Protestant interpretation of 2 peter 1:19-21:
This verse means that the Scriptures were never come from the will of the writters. They were written by the inspiration of God. These are the word of God and so a Christian should not interpret them privately. Instead,a Christian should read and interpret the Scriptures with Holy Spirit together. We have to always pray and ask for the help and presence of Holy Spirit when we read the Scriptures. So, this scripture do not against Sola Scriptura.


Orhtoodox interpretation of 2 peter 1:19-21:
This verse means that the Scriptures were never come from the will of the writters. They were written by the inspiration of God. These are the word of God. Men are fallen ,Men's wisdom are very limited and would easily misunderstand the meaning of the Scripture verses. So, man should  not interpret them alone and privately. Instead, the whole church, include the past and current church should interpret the bible together under the help of Holy Spirit. The bible should be interpreted with the works of Apostles, Saints, Church Fathers, Life Litugy, etc.

Whether this verse againsts Sola Scriptura,it all depends on how you interpret the above verse. It depends on how you "play" with these word.

I can find that no matter the teachings of Calvinism , Arminianism, Universalism,Lutheran, Charismatic,Wesylan,Jehovah's Witnesses,Seventh-day Adventist,etc, they are all supported by bible verse. Because it all depends on how you interpret the bible. Everybody has good interpretation skill on bible can form a theology easily.
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« Reply #58 on: October 25, 2012, 10:14:09 AM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Supermarket of Dogmas?



Please don't Bible Thump here, its not like in the Church we don't read the Bible, in fact, each Sunday we have an hour of prayer entirely devoted to the Word called the Liturgy of the Word Wink

Besides of which, I can thump back.

Quote
And we heard this voice which came from heaven when we were with Him on the holy mountain.

19 And so we have the prophetic word confirmed,[a] which you do well to heed as a light that shines in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts; 20 knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation,21 for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God[c] spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.
2 Peter 1:19-21

Further the Apostle Peter concludes:

Quote
speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.
2 Peter 3:16

Let alone the Apostolic tirade on self-asserting preachers and pastors, be they priests or Protestants alike in 2 Peter 2:1-15
 police

stay blessed,
habte selassie

Of course the Scriptures were not the interpretation of the writter. They were written by the inspiration of God. I don't believe the words of Luke because I believe Luke's private interpretation. I believe it because I believe it was inspired by God.

About the Verse about Paul, people used his Scriptures to be sinful, they were twisting he scriptures for lawlessness. Do you consider mainsteam Protestantism sinful and lawless?

Again ,it is all depend all you interpret the bible. It's all depend on the way how you interpret 2 Peter 1:19-21.

Protestant interpretation of 2 peter 1:19-21:
This verse means that the Scriptures were never come from the will of the writters. They were written by the inspiration of God. These are the word of God and so a Christian should not interpret them privately. Instead,a Christian should read and interpret the Scripture with Holy Spirit. So, this scripture do not against Sola Scripture.


Orhtoodox interpretation of 2 peter 1:19-21:
This verse means that the Scriptures were never come from the will of the writters. They were written by the inspiration of God. These are the word of God. Men are fallen ,Men's wisdom are limited and would easily misunderstand them. So, man should  not interpret them alone and privately. Instead, the whole church, include the past and current church should interpret the bible together under the help of Holy Spirit. The bible should be interpret under the works of Apostles, Saints, Church Fathers, Life Litugy, etc.

Whether this verse againsts Sola Scripture,it all depends on how you interpret the above verse. It depends on how you "play" with these word.

I can find that no matter the teachings of Calvinism , Arminianism, Universalism,Lutheran, Charismatic,Wesylan,Jehovah's Witnesses,Seventh-day Adventist,etc, they are all supported by bible verse. Because its all depend on how you interpret the bible. Everybody has good interpretation skill on bible can form a theology easily.

Now you seem to have hit on the crux of the problem. It's not whether you rely on a tradition to interpret Scripture but which tradition you rely on. That's why sola scriptura is a nonsense. It is absolutely impossible for any text, Scripture or otherwise, to interpret itself. Now you can choose to use one of the more modern Protestant traditions, such as you mention above, or alternatively you can choose the 2000 year old Holy Tradition of the Church. Those of us who are ex-Protestant converts have recognised that Holy Tradition trumps anything that the reformers or their descendants have come up with to replace it.

James
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« Reply #59 on: October 25, 2012, 10:22:25 AM »

Quote

1.How do Orthodox Christian understand the Dark age of Church?

2. Protestant Christian like to say that after Constantine the Great make Catholic Church as the country's religion in 3 rd century, the Christians live with peace and start to fall. They start to make the idols and workship them. They start to play the power struggle,alienate the Church from the truth. THus,THe Church experience the Dark Age in 4th century - 15 th century.Until 16 th Century, Martin Luther separate from Fallen Catholic Church and return the Church  to the right path. God use Martin Lurther and Protestant Christian to lead the Church away from Dark Age which had been over 1100-1200 years. Do Orthodox Christian agree with it?


The Dark Age didn't come to us until 1453.

The Dark Age didn't come to Orthodox Church until 1453?

Do you mean that there was a dark age in Orthodox Church around 1453? What has Orthodox Church happened in this period?

That's the year that Constantinople fell to the Ottoman Turks. It wasn't the Dark Ages as such (not that there really was any such thing even in western Europe). However, it certainly was a dark age for Orthodoxy as it pretty much left Moldova as the only free Orthodox state and that was pretty much in anarchy until Stefan cel Mare acceded to the throne 4 years later.

James

The Church of Russia was doing fine, even under the Tatar yoke.

But Russia wasn't free and the Tartars did create martyrs (see the icon I use as my avatar for an example of one, if from a slightly earlier period).

Political freedom and religious freedom are quite different in this case. The Mongols were generally hands-off on religious matters and allowed the Church to operate unimpeded. In fact, the Orthodox Church was less free under the Tsars than under the Mongols.
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« Reply #60 on: October 25, 2012, 10:32:08 AM »

Looks as if the so-called Dark Confused Age resides in Protestantism.

I actually don't believe there ever was a Dark "Age". Wasn't there multiple Renaissances during this time?
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« Reply #61 on: October 25, 2012, 11:01:32 AM »

Now you seem to have hit on the crux of the problem. It's not whether you rely on a tradition to interpret Scripture but which tradition you rely on. That's why sola scriptura is a nonsense. It is absolutely impossible for any text, Scripture or otherwise, to interpret itself. Now you can choose to use one of the more modern Protestant traditions, such as you mention above, or alternatively you can choose the 2000 year old Holy Tradition of the Church. Those of us who are ex-Protestant converts have recognised that Holy Tradition trumps anything that the reformers or their descendants have come up with to replace it.

James

Exactly. For me, it was a simple study in history. I grew up hearing about Luther (though it was through Protestants that would take serious offense to his teachings, had they actually known what those were) and the Reformation, and how Constantine "institutionalized" Christianity, made them have priests, serve liturgies, etc. in order to "fit in" to a pagan world and that the Church was completely lost on Earth from the time of Constantine until 1517. So, was everything lost, and Luther revived it...or did the historical account of the Church, before the Reformation, before the Great Schism, actually jive with the Scriptures?

I found the answer to be yes. Nothing in the writings of the Church Fathers contradicts the dogmatics Scripture, and many of the things which people argue were innovations from Constantine were, in fact, already in place centuries before, which is clearly seen by reading St. Ignatius, St. Polycarp, St. Justin Martyr, St. Irenaeus and other early Fathers who speak about Liturgy, Apostolic succession, the clerical orders, saints...it's all there. They also never make claim of any invisible church. Either you were baptized into the Church by an Orthodox clergyman (or perhaps received baptism from a heretic who has changed the faith, and your baptism is accepted when you become Orthodox through economy) or you aren't. There's none of this "praying the sinner's prayer" or "accepting Jesus into your heart." It's important to pray with contrition. It's important to know that the Kingdom is within you. However, the first is a perpetual mode of Christian living, and the second is done by dying and raising with Christ in baptism, and receiving the Holy Spirit through chrismation.

From the time of Christ forward, no one spoke at all like the Reformers did until the Reformers. They were new and different. They changed the faith. It is unfortunate for them that they had endured 500 years of life under the schismatic Roman Church, and it is probably because of the Protestant inheritance of legal terminology and understanding that kept groups like the Tübingen Lutherans from becoming Orthodox, even as they wrote letter back-and-forth with Patriarch Jeremiah of Constantinople. They were too mired in Roman thinking, and through out the wrong practices...and, in my opinion, that is still one of the biggest problems between Protestants and the Orthodox to this day.
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« Reply #62 on: October 25, 2012, 11:58:05 AM »

Now you seem to have hit on the crux of the problem. It's not whether you rely on a tradition to interpret Scripture but which tradition you rely on. That's why sola Scripture is a nonsense. It is absolutely impossible for any text, Scripture or otherwise, to interpret itself.

Who interprets Holy Tradition? The problem with your argument here is that we have all 4,200 pages of pre-nicea writtings that all of us can access and read. You'll see the fathers contradict each other, on theology, scripture interpretation, etc. If they always had the fullness of truth wouldn't there have been universal opinion then?


"We have learned from none others the plan of our salvation, than from those through whom the gospel has come down to us, which they did at one time proclaim in public, and, at a later period, by the will of God, handed down to us in the Scriptures, to be the ground and pillar of our faith."

Saint Irenaeus

Anyway, I hope this is my last post. I hate when these types of things drag on forever. We're not going to agree and that is what it is. I'll let you guys respond and leave it at that. Thanks again for the friendly discussion.  Smiley
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« Reply #63 on: October 25, 2012, 12:03:45 PM »

Who interprets Holy Tradition?
The Church
Quote
The problem with your argument here is that we have all 4,200 pages of pre-nicea writtings that all of us can access and read.
Holy Tradition is not another set of writings - it's the living Tradition of the Church. You can't just pick it up and read it.
Quote
You'll see the fathers contradict each other often, on theology, scripture, etc. If they always had the fullness of truth wouldn't there have been universal opinion then?
They individually do not always have the fullness of Truth. The Church, as a whole, does. You're looking at the issue analytically where we would look at it holistically (not that I'm surprised, after all I was once Protestant myself).

Quote
Anyway, I hope this is my last post. I hate when these types of things drag on forever. We're not going to agree and that is what it is. I'll let you guys respond and leave it at that. Thanks again for the friendly discussion.  Smiley

You're welcome

James
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« Reply #64 on: October 25, 2012, 12:08:26 PM »

Who interprets Holy Tradition?
The Church
Quote
The problem with your argument here is that we have all 4,200 pages of pre-nicea writtings that all of us can access and read.
Holy Tradition is not another set of writings - it's the living Tradition of the Church. You can't just pick it up and read it.
Quote
You'll see the fathers contradict each other often, on theology, scripture, etc. If they always had the fullness of truth wouldn't there have been universal opinion then?
They individually do not always have the fullness of Truth. The Church, as a whole, does. You're looking at the issue analytically where we would look at it holistically (not that I'm surprised, after all I was once Protestant myself).

Quote
Anyway, I hope this is my last post. I hate when these types of things drag on forever. We're not going to agree and that is what it is. I'll let you guys respond and leave it at that. Thanks again for the friendly discussion.  Smiley

You're welcome

James

I want to ask one question. What is the difference between the tradition of Orthodox Church and  the tradition of Catholic Church?
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« Reply #65 on: October 25, 2012, 12:16:38 PM »

Who interprets Holy Tradition?
The Church
Quote
The problem with your argument here is that we have all 4,200 pages of pre-nicea writtings that all of us can access and read.
Holy Tradition is not another set of writings - it's the living Tradition of the Church. You can't just pick it up and read it.
Quote
You'll see the fathers contradict each other often, on theology, scripture, etc. If they always had the fullness of truth wouldn't there have been universal opinion then?
They individually do not always have the fullness of Truth. The Church, as a whole, does. You're looking at the issue analytically where we would look at it holistically (not that I'm surprised, after all I was once Protestant myself).

Quote
Anyway, I hope this is my last post. I hate when these types of things drag on forever. We're not going to agree and that is what it is. I'll let you guys respond and leave it at that. Thanks again for the friendly discussion.  Smiley

You're welcome

James

I want to ask one question. What is the difference between the tradition of Orthodox Church and  the tradition of Catholic Church?


How much time have you got?
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« Reply #66 on: October 25, 2012, 12:18:52 PM »

Happy Lutheran

Do you believe the promise of God that bread and wine would be His flesh and blood and only those who ate His flesh and drank His blood would be saved?

Do you believe that it was through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit that the evangelist Luke described the words of Isabel to Mary: "Who am I, that comes to me the Mother of my Lord?"

Do you believe that Jesus transformed that apostolic community into His own body *despite of* their general desbelief, so great that even right before His ascension they were asking who would be first among them (so much for papal claims here)?

Do you believe that Jesus gave the keys to the kingdom to the Apostles and that He did not lay it in a book? And that He promised that He would be with this community until the end of times and it would never be defeated by the gates of Hell?

Do you believe the keys were given to the Apostles or Acts 10:47-48?
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« Reply #67 on: October 25, 2012, 12:24:13 PM »

All Baptised Christians date back 2,000 years. I was baptised by someone who was baptised etc all the way back (One Baptism etc).

How can you be sure?
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« Reply #68 on: October 25, 2012, 03:36:33 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Who interprets Holy Tradition?
The Church
Quote
The problem with your argument here is that we have all 4,200 pages of pre-nicea writtings that all of us can access and read.
Holy Tradition is not another set of writings - it's the living Tradition of the Church. You can't just pick it up and read it.
Quote
You'll see the fathers contradict each other often, on theology, scripture, etc. If they always had the fullness of truth wouldn't there have been universal opinion then?
They individually do not always have the fullness of Truth. The Church, as a whole, does. You're looking at the issue analytically where we would look at it holistically (not that I'm surprised, after all I was once Protestant myself).

Quote
Anyway, I hope this is my last post. I hate when these types of things drag on forever. We're not going to agree and that is what it is. I'll let you guys respond and leave it at that. Thanks again for the friendly discussion.  Smiley

You're welcome

James

I want to ask one question. What is the difference between the tradition of Orthodox Church and  the tradition of Catholic Church?

In premise? Nothing.  Tradition is a word which includes essentially EVERYTHING in the life of the Church.  Tradition includes the Canons, councils, hymns, prayers, Liturgies, icons, incense, rules, writs, architecture, organized structure,  teachings, dogmas, doctrines, and of course the Bible itself.  The Bible and the other aspects of the Tradition are just subdivided volumes of a single Anthology, collectively called the Tradition.  This ontology is the same both in the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church.  However, while in premise Tradition is the same, it is the way in which the differing aspects of Tradition are implemented and manifested where the distinctions between Orthodox and Catholic are found.  There are variations in approach, methodology, and interpretation of these aspects of Tradition.  The idea of what Tradition is remains the same, the details of what is in the Tradition is where we find variation.

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #69 on: October 26, 2012, 07:33:35 AM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Who interprets Holy Tradition?
The Church
Quote
The problem with your argument here is that we have all 4,200 pages of pre-nicea writtings that all of us can access and read.
Holy Tradition is not another set of writings - it's the living Tradition of the Church. You can't just pick it up and read it.
Quote
You'll see the fathers contradict each other often, on theology, scripture, etc. If they always had the fullness of truth wouldn't there have been universal opinion then?
They individually do not always have the fullness of Truth. The Church, as a whole, does. You're looking at the issue analytically where we would look at it holistically (not that I'm surprised, after all I was once Protestant myself).

Quote
Anyway, I hope this is my last post. I hate when these types of things drag on forever. We're not going to agree and that is what it is. I'll let you guys respond and leave it at that. Thanks again for the friendly discussion.  Smiley

You're welcome

James

I want to ask one question. What is the difference between the tradition of Orthodox Church and  the tradition of Catholic Church?

In premise? Nothing.  Tradition is a word which includes essentially EVERYTHING in the life of the Church.  Tradition includes the Canons, councils, hymns, prayers, Liturgies, icons, incense, rules, writs, architecture, organized structure,  teachings, dogmas, doctrines, and of course the Bible itself.  The Bible and the other aspects of the Tradition are just subdivided volumes of a single Anthology, collectively called the Tradition.  This ontology is the same both in the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church.  However, while in premise Tradition is the same, it is the way in which the differing aspects of Tradition are implemented and manifested where the distinctions between Orthodox and Catholic are found.  There are variations in approach, methodology, and interpretation of these aspects of Tradition.  The idea of what Tradition is remains the same, the details of what is in the Tradition is where we find variation.

stay blessed,
habte selassie

The idea of what Tradition in Catholic and Orthodox Church is remains the same. Why did Catholic Church still always fall and alienat from God in History, like power struggle between the Pope and Emperor, crusades holy war,Inquisitio Haereticae Pravitatis,Indulgence,etc?
« Last Edit: October 26, 2012, 07:34:40 AM by walter1234 » Logged
Ashman618
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« Reply #70 on: October 26, 2012, 08:16:24 AM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Who interprets Holy Tradition?
The Church
Quote
The problem with your argument here is that we have all 4,200 pages of pre-nicea writtings that all of us can access and read.
Holy Tradition is not another set of writings - it's the living Tradition of the Church. You can't just pick it up and read it.
Quote
You'll see the fathers contradict each other often, on theology, scripture, etc. If they always had the fullness of truth wouldn't there have been universal opinion then?
They individually do not always have the fullness of Truth. The Church, as a whole, does. You're looking at the issue analytically where we would look at it holistically (not that I'm surprised, after all I was once Protestant myself).

Quote
Anyway, I hope this is my last post. I hate when these types of things drag on forever. We're not going to agree and that is what it is. I'll let you guys respond and leave it at that. Thanks again for the friendly discussion.  Smiley

You're welcome

James

I want to ask one question. What is the difference between the tradition of Orthodox Church and  the tradition of Catholic Church?

In premise? Nothing.  Tradition is a word which includes essentially EVERYTHING in the life of the Church.  Tradition includes the Canons, councils, hymns, prayers, Liturgies, icons, incense, rules, writs, architecture, organized structure,  teachings, dogmas, doctrines, and of course the Bible itself.  The Bible and the other aspects of the Tradition are just subdivided volumes of a single Anthology, collectively called the Tradition.  This ontology is the same both in the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church.  However, while in premise Tradition is the same, it is the way in which the differing aspects of Tradition are implemented and manifested where the distinctions between Orthodox and Catholic are found.  There are variations in approach, methodology, and interpretation of these aspects of Tradition.  The idea of what Tradition is remains the same, the details of what is in the Tradition is where we find variation.

stay blessed,
habte selassie

The idea of what Tradition in Catholic and Orthodox Church is remains the same. Why did Catholic Church still always fall and alienat from God in History, like power struggle between the Pope and Emperor, crusades holy war,Inquisitio Haereticae Pravitatis,Indulgence,etc?

You said the key word POWER wherever there is the posibility for a human to dominate others it will eventually be abused
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walter1234
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« Reply #71 on: October 26, 2012, 12:10:41 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Who interprets Holy Tradition?
The Church
Quote
The problem with your argument here is that we have all 4,200 pages of pre-nicea writtings that all of us can access and read.
Holy Tradition is not another set of writings - it's the living Tradition of the Church. You can't just pick it up and read it.
Quote
You'll see the fathers contradict each other often, on theology, scripture, etc. If they always had the fullness of truth wouldn't there have been universal opinion then?
They individually do not always have the fullness of Truth. The Church, as a whole, does. You're looking at the issue analytically where we would look at it holistically (not that I'm surprised, after all I was once Protestant myself).

Quote
Anyway, I hope this is my last post. I hate when these types of things drag on forever. We're not going to agree and that is what it is. I'll let you guys respond and leave it at that. Thanks again for the friendly discussion.  Smiley

You're welcome

James

I want to ask one question. What is the difference between the tradition of Orthodox Church and  the tradition of Catholic Church?

In premise? Nothing.  Tradition is a word which includes essentially EVERYTHING in the life of the Church.  Tradition includes the Canons, councils, hymns, prayers, Liturgies, icons, incense, rules, writs, architecture, organized structure,  teachings, dogmas, doctrines, and of course the Bible itself.  The Bible and the other aspects of the Tradition are just subdivided volumes of a single Anthology, collectively called the Tradition.  This ontology is the same both in the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church.  However, while in premise Tradition is the same, it is the way in which the differing aspects of Tradition are implemented and manifested where the distinctions between Orthodox and Catholic are found.  There are variations in approach, methodology, and interpretation of these aspects of Tradition.  The idea of what Tradition is remains the same, the details of what is in the Tradition is where we find variation.

stay blessed,
habte selassie

The idea of what Tradition in Catholic and Orthodox Church is remains the same. Why did Catholic Church still always fall and alienat from God in History, like power struggle between the Pope and Emperor, crusades holy war,Inquisitio Haereticae Pravitatis,Indulgence,etc?

You said the key word POWER wherever there is the posibility for a human to dominate others it will eventually be abused

IF Pope's POWER is so great, can Catholic Church be as 'healthy' as Orthodox Church?
« Last Edit: October 26, 2012, 12:15:11 PM by walter1234 » Logged
Ashman618
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« Reply #72 on: October 26, 2012, 12:30:13 PM »

Power and authority are are only bring health when used properly, which is why the abuse or misuse of power is the problem, but again understand when dealing with humans things go south
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« Reply #73 on: October 26, 2012, 02:37:03 PM »

IF Pope's POWER is so great, can Catholic Church be as 'healthy' as Orthodox Church?

"For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?"
(Matthew 16:26)
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"Hades is not a place, no, but a state of the soul. It begins here on earth. Just so, paradise begins in the soul of a man here in the earthly life. Here we already have contact with the divine..." -St. John, Wonderworker of Shanghai and San Francisco, Homily On the Sunday of Orthodoxy
walter1234
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« Reply #74 on: October 27, 2012, 01:24:22 PM »

Quote
十字軍東征(拉丁文:Cruciata,伊斯蘭世界稱為法蘭克人入侵,1096年-1291年)是一系列在羅馬天主教教皇的准許下,由西歐的封建領主和騎士對他們認為是異教徒的國家(地中海東岸)發動了持續近200年的宗教性戰爭,東正教徒也參加了其中幾次十字軍。參加這場戰爭的士兵佩有十字標誌,因此稱為十字軍  [參 1]

http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E5%8D%81%E5%AD%97%E8%BB%8D%E6%9D%B1%E5%BE%81

I see the above information from Chinese wikipedia about crusades( You may use google translate to translate the above Chinese(tradition) to English).

The above quotation (from Chinese Wikipedia) said that Orthodox Church had joined the crusaders for serveral times. Is this true?
« Last Edit: October 27, 2012, 01:25:50 PM by walter1234 » Logged
Cyrillic
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« Reply #75 on: October 27, 2012, 01:29:33 PM »

Quote
十字軍東征(拉丁文:Cruciata,伊斯蘭世界稱為法蘭克人入侵,1096年-1291年)是一系列在羅馬天主教教皇的准許下,由西歐的封建領主和騎士對他們認為是異教徒的國家(地中海東岸)發動了持續近200年的宗教性戰爭,東正教徒也參加了其中幾次十字軍。參加這場戰爭的士兵佩有十字標誌,因此稱為十字軍  [參 1]

http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E5%8D%81%E5%AD%97%E8%BB%8D%E6%9D%B1%E5%BE%81

I see the above information from Chinese wikipedia about crusades( You may use google translate to translate the above Chinese(tradition) to English).

The above quotation (from Chinese Wikipedia) said that Orthodox Church had joined the crusaders for serveral times. Is this true?

Yes. But that was to reconquer the territory the Turks and Arabs had stolen from them.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2012, 01:30:09 PM by Cyrillic » Logged

"Claret is the liquor for boys; port for men; but he who aspires to be a hero must drink brandy."
-Dr. Samuel Johnson
walter1234
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« Reply #76 on: October 27, 2012, 01:47:22 PM »

Quote
十字軍東征(拉丁文:Cruciata,伊斯蘭世界稱為法蘭克人入侵,1096年-1291年)是一系列在羅馬天主教教皇的准許下,由西歐的封建領主和騎士對他們認為是異教徒的國家(地中海東岸)發動了持續近200年的宗教性戰爭,東正教徒也參加了其中幾次十字軍。參加這場戰爭的士兵佩有十字標誌,因此稱為十字軍  [參 1]

http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E5%8D%81%E5%AD%97%E8%BB%8D%E6%9D%B1%E5%BE%81

I see the above information from Chinese wikipedia about crusades( You may use google translate to translate the above Chinese(tradition) to English).

The above quotation (from Chinese Wikipedia) said that Orthodox Church had joined the crusaders for serveral times. Is this true?

Yes. But that was to reconquer the territory the Turks and Arabs had stolen from them.

What does "them" refer to ? Why were those territories so important to Orthodox Church in the end of 10th century ?
« Last Edit: October 27, 2012, 01:58:07 PM by walter1234 » Logged
Cyrillic
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« Reply #77 on: October 27, 2012, 02:01:46 PM »

Quote
十字軍東征(拉丁文:Cruciata,伊斯蘭世界稱為法蘭克人入侵,1096年-1291年)是一系列在羅馬天主教教皇的准許下,由西歐的封建領主和騎士對他們認為是異教徒的國家(地中海東岸)發動了持續近200年的宗教性戰爭,東正教徒也參加了其中幾次十字軍。參加這場戰爭的士兵佩有十字標誌,因此稱為十字軍  [參 1]

http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E5%8D%81%E5%AD%97%E8%BB%8D%E6%9D%B1%E5%BE%81

I see the above information from Chinese wikipedia about crusades( You may use google translate to translate the above Chinese(tradition) to English).

The above quotation (from Chinese Wikipedia) said that Orthodox Church had joined the crusaders for serveral times. Is this true?

Yes. But that was to reconquer the territory the Turks and Arabs had stolen from them.

What does "them" refer to ? Why were those territories so important to Orthodox Church in the end of 10th century ?

Them refers to the Byzantines (the Byzantine Empire was Orthodox). The majority in Antioch and Asia Minor was Orthodox but at the end of the 11th century those provinces were subjugated by the cruel Turks, so the Byzantines wanted to reclaim those territories and free the inhabitants.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2012, 02:02:41 PM by Cyrillic » Logged

"Claret is the liquor for boys; port for men; but he who aspires to be a hero must drink brandy."
-Dr. Samuel Johnson
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