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Author Topic: Serbian bishop expresses support for Macedonian autocephaly  (Read 2360 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #45 on: October 24, 2012, 08:10:08 PM »

  Please no one quote or copy or multiply in any way the post with the maps.  The maps themselves have already taken enough bandwith, we do not need to take any more. 

Thank you.  - Serb1389. General Fora Moderator. 
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« Reply #46 on: October 24, 2012, 08:15:54 PM »

  Please no one quote or copy or multiply in any way the post with the maps.  The maps themselves have already taken enough bandwith, we do not need to take any more. 

Thank you.  - Serb1389. General Fora Moderator. 


Good lord, I was viewing them on my phone so it wasn't bad, now at a desktop I see how large they are.
It'd be really nice if our forum had the ability to thumbnail images posted (I'm not talking the attachments). That is, along with the [ IMG ] tags, you'd add another tag to thumbnail it to a specific number of pixels.
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« Reply #47 on: October 24, 2012, 08:17:30 PM »

Let them have their Church, as long as they fully rehabilitate the members of the canonical Serbian Patriarchate. As for the name, it can just be Church of Ohrid.
and All Macedonia.

How can you justify that on any level? There are already bishops who have parts of Greek and Bulgarian Macedonia as their canonical territory.

Frankly, I think these "and all [insert nation-state]" titles are pretty stupid.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2012, 08:29:20 PM by akimori makoto » Logged

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« Reply #48 on: October 24, 2012, 08:20:09 PM »

The current country of Macedonia, or rather the area it encompasses was originally part of Macedonia/Macedon even though it wasn't the center. I'd almost compare it to that Alaska is just as much part of the US as any other state, and if many centuries from now, the US doesn't exist and Alaska forms a government and calls itself the Republic of America or something. Was Alaska the center of the US? No, but it was still a part of the US.

Or like Israel, which is nothing like Ancient Israel but uses the name.

It would be very naive to think a nation or a church will change its name because you don't like or agree with it. It nationalistic to desire to continue schism because of a name, just as it is also nationalistic to desire schism based on nationality.

This post unfairly conflates two separate issues.

I am opposed to the autocephaly of the "Macedonian Church" and the adoption of the name "Republic of Macedonia" by the FYROM for two entirely distinct reasons. You are painting an unfair picture of others who share my positions.
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« Reply #49 on: October 24, 2012, 08:23:54 PM »

  Please no one quote or copy or multiply in any way the post with the maps.  The maps themselves have already taken enough bandwith, we do not need to take any more. 

Thank you.  - Serb1389. General Fora Moderator. 


Good lord, I was viewing them on my phone so it wasn't bad, now at a desktop I see how large they are.
It'd be really nice if our forum had the ability to thumbnail images posted (I'm not talking the attachments). That is, along with the [ IMG ] tags, you'd add another tag to thumbnail it to a specific number of pixels.

I think that would need a complete site overhaul.  Definitely a good idea though.

I want to say there's even a rule on how big pictures can be....hm...
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« Reply #50 on: October 24, 2012, 08:39:38 PM »

The current country of Macedonia, or rather the area it encompasses was originally part of Macedonia/Macedon even though it wasn't the center. I'd almost compare it to that Alaska is just as much part of the US as any other state, and if many centuries from now, the US doesn't exist and Alaska forms a government and calls itself the Republic of America or something. Was Alaska the center of the US? No, but it was still a part of the US.

Or like Israel, which is nothing like Ancient Israel but uses the name.

It would be very naive to think a nation or a church will change its name because you don't like or agree with it. It nationalistic to desire to continue schism because of a name, just as it is also nationalistic to desire schism based on nationality.

This post unfairly conflates two separate issues.

I am opposed to the autocephaly of the "Macedonian Church" and the adoption of the name "Republic of Macedonia" by the FYROM for two entirely distinct reasons. You are painting an unfair picture of others who share my positions.

What are those reasons? Do they have anything to do with any doctrine or theology? Or just nationality/ethnicity?
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« Reply #51 on: October 24, 2012, 08:52:07 PM »

The current country of Macedonia, or rather the area it encompasses was originally part of Macedonia/Macedon even though it wasn't the center. I'd almost compare it to that Alaska is just as much part of the US as any other state, and if many centuries from now, the US doesn't exist and Alaska forms a government and calls itself the Republic of America or something. Was Alaska the center of the US? No, but it was still a part of the US.

Or like Israel, which is nothing like Ancient Israel but uses the name.

It would be very naive to think a nation or a church will change its name because you don't like or agree with it. It nationalistic to desire to continue schism because of a name, just as it is also nationalistic to desire schism based on nationality.

This post unfairly conflates two separate issues.

I am opposed to the autocephaly of the "Macedonian Church" and the adoption of the name "Republic of Macedonia" by the FYROM for two entirely distinct reasons. You are painting an unfair picture of others who share my positions.

What are those reasons? Do they have anything to do with any doctrine or theology? Or just nationality/ethnicity?

Fittingly, my reasons for the first are grounded in our ecclesiology and canons, while my reasons for the second are geopolitical.

Dealing with them out of order:

1. I am opposed to the FYROM being known as the "Republic of Macedonia", because that name: (1) by stealth usurps a cultural legacy which does not belong to the Slavs; (2) invites a conflation of geography and politics (that is, the political creature of the Macedonian nation-state becomes synonymous over time with the geographical region of Macedonia, which crosses multiple borders as they are currently drawn); and (3) simply confuses.

2. I am opposed to the so-called Macedonian Orthodox Church being granted autocephaly (and, by corollary, legitimacy) because: (1) the insistence on that church's territory extending to the borders of the Macedonian nation-state is motivated by phyletism; (2) legitimising that church is to syllogistically delegitimise Archbishop Jovan and his synod; and (3) other canonical reasons which have already been fairly enunciated by those that share my view.

Before anyone retorts with "but the Greeks did the same thing" when they created the "Church of Greece", I would much rather the bishops of Greece sit in the Ecumenical Patriarch's synod and commemorate him in the Divine Liturgy, keeping clearly distinct the Greek nation-state and the Orthodox Church.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2012, 08:53:06 PM by akimori makoto » Logged

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« Reply #52 on: October 24, 2012, 09:07:22 PM »

The current country of Macedonia, or rather the area it encompasses was originally part of Macedonia/Macedon even though it wasn't the center. I'd almost compare it to that Alaska is just as much part of the US as any other state, and if many centuries from now, the US doesn't exist and Alaska forms a government and calls itself the Republic of America or something. Was Alaska the center of the US? No, but it was still a part of the US.

Or like Israel, which is nothing like Ancient Israel but uses the name.

It would be very naive to think a nation or a church will change its name because you don't like or agree with it. It nationalistic to desire to continue schism because of a name, just as it is also nationalistic to desire schism based on nationality.

This post unfairly conflates two separate issues.

I am opposed to the autocephaly of the "Macedonian Church" and the adoption of the name "Republic of Macedonia" by the FYROM for two entirely distinct reasons. You are painting an unfair picture of others who share my positions.

What are those reasons? Do they have anything to do with any doctrine or theology? Or just nationality/ethnicity?

Fittingly, my reasons for the first are grounded in our ecclesiology and canons, while my reasons for the second are geopolitical.

Dealing with them out of order:

1. I am opposed to the FYROM being known as the "Republic of Macedonia", because that name: (1) by stealth usurps a cultural legacy which does not belong to the Slavs; (2) invites a conflation of geography and politics (that is, the political creature of the Macedonian nation-state becomes synonymous over time with the geographical region of Macedonia, which crosses multiple borders as they are currently drawn); and (3) simply confuses.

2. I am opposed to the so-called Macedonian Orthodox Church being granted autocephaly (and, by corollary, legitimacy) because: (1) the insistence on that church's territory extending to the borders of the Macedonian nation-state is motivated by phyletism; (2) legitimising that church is to syllogistically delegitimise Archbishop Jovan and his synod; and (3) other canonical reasons which have already been fairly enunciated by those that share my view.

Before anyone retorts with "but the Greeks did the same thing" when they created the "Church of Greece", I would much rather the bishops of Greece sit in the Ecumenical Patriarch's synod and commemorate him in the Divine Liturgy, keeping clearly distinct the Greek nation-state and the Orthodox Church.
+1 This, so much this.
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« Reply #53 on: October 24, 2012, 10:26:46 PM »

The current country of Macedonia, or rather the area it encompasses was originally part of Macedonia/Macedon even though it wasn't the center. I'd almost compare it to that Alaska is just as much part of the US as any other state, and if many centuries from now, the US doesn't exist and Alaska forms a government and calls itself the Republic of America or something. Was Alaska the center of the US? No, but it was still a part of the US.

Or like Israel, which is nothing like Ancient Israel but uses the name.

It would be very naive to think a nation or a church will change its name because you don't like or agree with it. It nationalistic to desire to continue schism because of a name, just as it is also nationalistic to desire schism based on nationality.

This post unfairly conflates two separate issues.

I am opposed to the autocephaly of the "Macedonian Church" and the adoption of the name "Republic of Macedonia" by the FYROM for two entirely distinct reasons. You are painting an unfair picture of others who share my positions.

What are those reasons? Do they have anything to do with any doctrine or theology? Or just nationality/ethnicity?

Fittingly, my reasons for the first are grounded in our ecclesiology and canons, while my reasons for the second are geopolitical.

Dealing with them out of order:

1. I am opposed to the FYROM being known as the "Republic of Macedonia", because that name: (1) by stealth usurps a cultural legacy which does not belong to the Slavs;
Greeks can't complain much as they took it from the Macedonians (who were Hellenized, so not so much a problem of chain of claims as successor state), but then abandoned it to the Slavs who settled it (map Cool and then were organized into their own chiefdoms (Sklaveniai) there (map 9) which the the Romaioi incorporated into their Commonwealth, and admitted the Romaioi's abandonment of Macedonia by setting up a new Macedonia in Thrace (maps 10 and 11) and settling it with Slavs and Armenians (Basil "the Macedonian," founder of the Macedonian Dynasty, patrons of the Macedonian Renaissance, was actually an Armenian settled in the new "Macedonia.").  Neither stealth nor usurpation, but what the Romaioi did, the Slavs can do as well.

Then there is that issue of Slavicized Greeks/Romaioi and Hellenized Slavs in Macedonia.

The Greeks/Romaioi never left nor surrendered Thessalonika, however, and so Macedonia has no claim to a "Salun." So the Truth, and the border, lies somewhere between Thessalonika and Macedonia up the Vardar.


(2) invites a conflation of geography and politics (that is, the political creature of the Macedonian nation-state becomes synonymous over time with the geographical region of Macedonia, which crosses multiple borders as they are currently drawn); and
wouldn't be the first nor the last time.  Such conflation drove the Kingdom of the Greeks into Macedonia-home of Vlachs/Romanians, Macedonian (Slavs) and Bulgarians-in the first place during the Balkan Wars.

(3) simply confuses.
Define "confuses."

2. I am opposed to the so-called Macedonian Orthodox Church being granted autocephaly (and, by corollary, legitimacy) because: (1) the insistence on that church's territory extending to the borders of the Macedonian nation-state is motivated by phyletism; (2) legitimising that church is to syllogistically delegitimise Archbishop Jovan and his synod; and (3) other canonical reasons which have already been fairly enunciated by those that share my view.
Points 1 and 3 will be resolved in reference to the resolution of 2-i.e. recognition of Archbishop Jovan-and not in reverse.

Before anyone retorts with "but the Greeks did the same thing" when they created the "Church of Greece", I would much rather the bishops of Greece sit in the Ecumenical Patriarch's synod and commemorate him in the Divine Liturgy, keeping clearly distinct the Greek nation-state and the Orthodox Church.
Truth told, that's how the Ecumenical Patriarch came into being:no Imperial capital of the Romaic nation-state, no Patriarch of Constantinople in the Orthodox Church.
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« Reply #54 on: October 24, 2012, 10:54:25 PM »

The current country of Macedonia, or rather the area it encompasses was originally part of Macedonia/Macedon even though it wasn't the center. I'd almost compare it to that Alaska is just as much part of the US as any other state, and if many centuries from now, the US doesn't exist and Alaska forms a government and calls itself the Republic of America or something. Was Alaska the center of the US? No, but it was still a part of the US.

Or like Israel, which is nothing like Ancient Israel but uses the name.

It would be very naive to think a nation or a church will change its name because you don't like or agree with it. It nationalistic to desire to continue schism because of a name, just as it is also nationalistic to desire schism based on nationality.

This post unfairly conflates two separate issues.

I am opposed to the autocephaly of the "Macedonian Church" and the adoption of the name "Republic of Macedonia" by the FYROM for two entirely distinct reasons. You are painting an unfair picture of others who share my positions.

What are those reasons? Do they have anything to do with any doctrine or theology? Or just nationality/ethnicity?

Fittingly, my reasons for the first are grounded in our ecclesiology and canons, while my reasons for the second are geopolitical.

Dealing with them out of order:

1. I am opposed to the FYROM being known as the "Republic of Macedonia", because that name: (1) by stealth usurps a cultural legacy which does not belong to the Slavs;
Greeks can't complain much as they took it from the Macedonians (who were Hellenized, so not so much a problem of chain of claims as successor state), but then abandoned it to the Slavs who settled it (map Cool and then were organized into their own chiefdoms (Sklaveniai) there (map 9) which the the Romaioi incorporated into their Commonwealth, and admitted the Romaioi's abandonment of Macedonia by setting up a new Macedonia in Thrace (maps 10 and 11) and settling it with Slavs and Armenians (Basil "the Macedonian," founder of the Macedonian Dynasty, patrons of the Macedonian Renaissance, was actually an Armenian settled in the new "Macedonia.").  Neither stealth nor usurpation, but what the Romaioi did, the Slavs can do as well.

Then there is that issue of Slavicized Greeks/Romaioi and Hellenized Slavs in Macedonia.

The Greeks/Romaioi never left nor surrendered Thessalonika, however, and so Macedonia has no claim to a "Salun." So the Truth, and the border, lies somewhere between Thessalonika and Macedonia up the Vardar.


(2) invites a conflation of geography and politics (that is, the political creature of the Macedonian nation-state becomes synonymous over time with the geographical region of Macedonia, which crosses multiple borders as they are currently drawn); and
wouldn't be the first nor the last time.  Such conflation drove the Kingdom of the Greeks into Macedonia-home of Vlachs/Romanians, Macedonian (Slavs) and Bulgarians-in the first place during the Balkan Wars.

(3) simply confuses.
Define "confuses."

2. I am opposed to the so-called Macedonian Orthodox Church being granted autocephaly (and, by corollary, legitimacy) because: (1) the insistence on that church's territory extending to the borders of the Macedonian nation-state is motivated by phyletism; (2) legitimising that church is to syllogistically delegitimise Archbishop Jovan and his synod; and (3) other canonical reasons which have already been fairly enunciated by those that share my view.
Points 1 and 3 will be resolved in reference to the resolution of 2-i.e. recognition of Archbishop Jovan-and not in reverse.

Before anyone retorts with "but the Greeks did the same thing" when they created the "Church of Greece", I would much rather the bishops of Greece sit in the Ecumenical Patriarch's synod and commemorate him in the Divine Liturgy, keeping clearly distinct the Greek nation-state and the Orthodox Church.
Truth told, that's how the Ecumenical Patriarch came into being:no Imperial capital of the Romaic nation-state, no Patriarch of Constantinople in the Orthodox Church.

Not buying it, Isa, but you argue well.
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« Reply #55 on: October 25, 2012, 04:30:20 AM »

We have the answer of spokesperson of Serbian Church bishop Irenaeus of Bachka regarding scandalous interview which gave bishop Lawrence.
http://beseda.rs/portal/index.php/novosti/vesti/spc/3691-quo-vadis-laurentie.html
Let us hope that we will have it in English soon.

« Last Edit: October 25, 2012, 04:51:41 AM by Servos » Logged
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« Reply #56 on: October 25, 2012, 08:13:19 AM »

Most of us really don't have a horse in this race, so to speak and the historical enmity in the region is tough to get a handle around. It surely seems though that this can/will have significant, serious ramifications across the entire Orthodox sphere.

Doesn't this stem more from the development of modern statist self-identities - a development of the late 19th and 20th century post Industrial Revolution across Europe? It seems that ancient history aside - something many Orthodox have a problem letting go of - it is difficult to sit here in America (and even more so in places like Ukraine and Slovakia) and argue against the case of Slavs who self-identify as 'Macedonian' and who self-identify a culture and a geopolitical identity which is distinct from either the Hellenes or the Serbs for their own ecclesiastical independence.

I truly mean no offense to those who hold passionate opinions about this subject, but as I said - from the outside looking in - this is tough to get a handle upon.

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« Reply #57 on: October 25, 2012, 09:26:53 AM »

Most of us really don't have a horse in this race, so to speak and the historical enmity in the region is tough to get a handle around. It surely seems though that this can/will have significant, serious ramifications across the entire Orthodox sphere.

Doesn't this stem more from the development of modern statist self-identities - a development of the late 19th and 20th century post Industrial Revolution across Europe? It seems that ancient history aside - something many Orthodox have a problem letting go of - it is difficult to sit here in America (and even more so in places like Ukraine and Slovakia) and argue against the case of Slavs who self-identify as 'Macedonian' and who self-identify a culture and a geopolitical identity which is distinct from either the Hellenes or the Serbs for their own ecclesiastical independence.
The perfect crucible for that was provided by placing a people with a closer affinity to the Bulgarians, under the Serbs, who bought jurisdiction from the Phanar after the Faithful in question had already wrested it from His All-Holiness.
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« Reply #58 on: October 25, 2012, 11:26:56 AM »

Let them have their Church, as long as they fully rehabilitate the members of the canonical Serbian Patriarchate. As for the name, it can just be Church of Ohrid.
and All Macedonia.
My suggestion was to AVOID controversy. Yours is the contrary. "and Macedonia" would cause trouble already, and the word "all", that would be a directly claim on the EP's Thessaloniki.
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« Reply #59 on: October 25, 2012, 11:30:41 AM »

Btw, fitting church structures to political borders is NOT phyletism. Havin several parallel jurisdictions according to ethnicity in one geographical area is. The biggest mistake of the Bulgarians was to place their patriarchate in Istanbul and claiming an ethnic, rather than geographical jurisdiction.
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« Reply #60 on: October 25, 2012, 11:32:45 AM »

Btw, fitting church structures to political borders is NOT phyletism. Havin several parallel jurisdictions according to ethnicity in one geographical area is. The biggest mistake of the Bulgarians was to place their patriarchate in Istanbul and claiming an ethnic, rather than geographical jurisdiction.
Au contraire, given the circumstances (it was still the Turkokartia), it was pure genius.
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« Reply #61 on: October 25, 2012, 11:53:44 AM »

But here we are arguing from a perspective of the 16th through the early to mid 19th century. Post 1848 a very differentEurope began to develop. (Note to Isa: It was a great time for mapmakers - 1848 - 2000.) And please note I said a 'different' - not a 'better' -  Europe began to arise out of the rapidly collapsing monarchical states and principalities. Recognizing that we are still suffering from the ill-advised map-making of Versailles and the 'nation-building' associated with it - both in Europe, the Mideast and into the Hindu Kush for that matter - we have to come up with an Orthodox methodology to deal with what is now - not to right non-correctable mistakes made by the long dead of many races and religions. I know we Orthodox are peoples of tradition - but come on now....
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« Reply #62 on: October 25, 2012, 12:33:33 PM »

Let them have their Church, as long as they fully rehabilitate the members of the canonical Serbian Patriarchate. As for the name, it can just be Church of Ohrid.
and All Macedonia.
My suggestion was to AVOID controversy. Yours is the contrary
Yes, don't have much use for bush wacking, but see lots of merit in meeting a problem head on. Especially when those advocating postponement of controversial issues are letting the elephant sit in the room off to the side so they can try to lure it under the rug, so "facts" can be created on the ground while the status quo sets, buying time to let the cement dry.

Antioch didn't let go of "All" the East when Jerusalem's independence was reasserted, and Jerusalem had "All" of Palestine long before the mass migration from Palestine into Jordan.  During the brief separation of the Metropolitanate of Kiev and the Patriarchate of Moscow, they were headed by the Metropolitan of Kiev and "All" Rus' and the Patriarch of Moscow and "All" Rus', and I doubt that it would change should Metropolitan Volodymyr rightly became the autocephalous primate of a Ukrainian patriarchate. The Georgian Catholicos I am sure will claim-and has claimed-"All" Georgia no matter the status of Abkhazia (which has been autocephalous and in communion during its history). The Patriarch of Belgrade didn't lose "All" Serbia as Yugoslavia fell apart, nor did the Patriarch of Bucharest lose "All" Romania when Greater Romania was amputated.  The Archbishop of Tirane claims "All" Albania, although Albania does not contain all Albanians, and the Metropolitan of Warsaw has jurisdiction over "All" Poland in its present borders, not those of the First and Second Republic of Poland.

Macedonia is Macedonia.  That fact is going to have to be dealt with from the git-go.

"and Macedonia" would cause trouble already, and the word "all", that would be a directly claim on the EP's Thessaloniki.
It caused trouble by the Phanar selling rights it did not have over Macedonia.  The Sultan gave in 1767.  The Sultan took away in 1870.  Blessed be the name of the Sultan! Roll Eyes

As I indicated above, the Greeks, Serbs and Bulgarians aren't the only ones living in fantasy in Macedonia.  The Macedonians too stand in need of some correction.
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« Reply #63 on: October 25, 2012, 12:37:00 PM »

How would having a Macedonian Orthodox Church be any more ethnic than the Serbian Church, Romanian, Bulgarian and other such churches?

The natural course of things in Orthodoxy is to have various churches throughout the world. Even if, as Americans, we go under Antioch, Istanbul or Moscow, eventually we will become autocephalous. Same goes for South America, Australia and Asian Orthodox groups.

To be quite honest, I think the whole debate over Macedonia and Ukraine is just stupid church politics. There are no good theological reasons to require them to submit themselves to a foreign church. Politics are never a reason to sustain schism. Politics may contribute to a schism, like in 1204, but they should never be what sustains a schism when theological and doctrinal unity exists.

Let's also be honest here, the claim that accepting the Macedonian Orthodox Church would NOT de-legitimize Archbishop Jovan of Ohrid. Hypothetically, if EO & OO were to reunite, do you think it'd de-legitimize our Bishop in Alexandria once we'd recognize the Coptic Pope? No it wouldn't.

The idea of continuing a schism due to church politics is sick and disgusting. Who cares if they call themselves the Macedonian Orthodox Church? Who cares if the Archbishop is called Archbishop of Ohrid and Macedonia. The idea of continuing a schism because of the name of a country IS ethnophyletism and it IS putting your nationalism before your Orthodox faith.

Let Ukraine have it's own church and let Macedonia have its own church, it is not a big deal. Putting your ethnic and national identity before your faith goes both ways, not just one.

If, in the very distant future, the Church in America grows, and if the U.S. falls as a nation, and one or more of the states want to form their own autocephalous group, I don't see what the big deal would be.
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« Reply #64 on: October 25, 2012, 12:55:17 PM »

How would having a Macedonian Orthodox Church be any more ethnic than the Serbian Church, Romanian, Bulgarian and other such churches?

The natural course of things in Orthodoxy is to have various churches throughout the world. Even if, as Americans, we go under Antioch, Istanbul or Moscow, eventually we will become autocephalous. Same goes for South America, Australia and Asian Orthodox groups.

To be quite honest, I think the whole debate over Macedonia and Ukraine is just stupid church politics. There are no good theological reasons to require them to submit themselves to a foreign church. Politics are never a reason to sustain schism. Politics may contribute to a schism, like in 1204, but they should never be what sustains a schism when theological and doctrinal unity exists.

Let's also be honest here, the claim that accepting the Macedonian Orthodox Church would NOT de-legitimize Archbishop Jovan of Ohrid. Hypothetically, if EO & OO were to reunite, do you think it'd de-legitimize our Bishop in Alexandria once we'd recognize the Coptic Pope? No it wouldn't.

The idea of continuing a schism due to church politics is sick and disgusting. Who cares if they call themselves the Macedonian Orthodox Church? Who cares if the Archbishop is called Archbishop of Ohrid and Macedonia. The idea of continuing a schism because of the name of a country IS ethnophyletism and it IS putting your nationalism before your Orthodox faith.

Let Ukraine have it's own church and let Macedonia have its own church, it is not a big deal. Putting your ethnic and national identity before your faith goes both ways, not just one.

If, in the very distant future, the Church in America grows, and if the U.S. falls as a nation, and one or more of the states want to form their own autocephalous group, I don't see what the big deal would be.

I agree, it is the never ending arguments about the past that turn many off to the truth within the Church.
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« Reply #65 on: October 25, 2012, 01:18:23 PM »

Just experts here on this topic...
Have You ever been in Skoplje ? Do you speak the language ? How far is Skoplje from your home ? Do you have Skoplje TV channels in your cable offer ?
You pick up some info on the net and you think you have all the wisdom of the world.

Here is not the problem should church in Skoplje be autonomous or autocephalous. Problem is the way (method) they chose.
Both, patriarch German and patriarch Pavle were ready to give them indipendence, but not with knife under throat from Communist.
Archbishop John very quickly get autonomy. The bishops of the region of Skoplje choose they archbishop alone, with no assistance from Serbian Church. Now, it is just confirmed from Serbian Synod after they choose him, but even that is not necessary in future.

So, problem here is not autonomy or autocephaly, but the method.

As I told you, have trust in Ecumenical Patriarch, Serbian Patriarch, Greek Archbishop, Skoplje Archbishop and all hierarchs. They love Church the same as you do.
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« Reply #66 on: October 25, 2012, 01:29:57 PM »

Just experts here on this topic...
Have You ever been in Skoplje ? Do you speak the language ? How far is Skoplje from your home ? Do you have Skoplje TV channels in your cable offer ?
You pick up some info on the net and you think you have all the wisdom of the world.

Here is not the problem should church in Skoplje be autonomous or autocephalous. Problem is the way (method) they chose.
Both, patriarch German and patriarch Pavle were ready to give them indipendence, but not with knife under throat from Communist.
Archbishop John very quickly get autonomy. The bishops of the region of Skoplje choose they archbishop alone, with no assistance from Serbian Church. Now, it is just confirmed from Serbian Synod after they choose him, but even that is not necessary in future.

So, problem here is not autonomy or autocephaly, but the method.

As I told you, have trust in Ecumenical Patriarch, Serbian Patriarch, Greek Archbishop, Skoplje Archbishop and all hierarchs. They love Church the same as you do.
Some of us know not to trust the Phanar, and something about Greek phyletism, from experience.
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« Reply #67 on: October 25, 2012, 01:35:27 PM »

Just experts here on this topic...
Have You ever been in Skoplje ? Do you speak the language ? How far is Skoplje from your home ? Do you have Skoplje TV channels in your cable offer ?
You pick up some info on the net and you think you have all the wisdom of the world.

Here is not the problem should church in Skoplje be autonomous or autocephalous. Problem is the way (method) they chose.
Both, patriarch German and patriarch Pavle were ready to give them indipendence, but not with knife under throat from Communist.
Archbishop John very quickly get autonomy. The bishops of the region of Skoplje choose they archbishop alone, with no assistance from Serbian Church. Now, it is just confirmed from Serbian Synod after they choose him, but even that is not necessary in future.

So, problem here is not autonomy or autocephaly, but the method.

As I told you, have trust in Ecumenical Patriarch, Serbian Patriarch, Greek Archbishop, Skoplje Archbishop and all hierarchs. They love Church the same as you do.

The method isn't necessarily the issue Servos, you fail to realize that most autocephalous churches were initially rejected and "excommunicated" by their mother church before they were finally recognized as autocephalous.

If you want to be rational and logical, you cannot reject someone's argument simply because of where their argument is coming from. Their argument for autocephaly is valid, even if the method they chose isn't the best.

And Servos, you have to understand that in our church, we don't have to just submit to a Bishop and what they say, we can form our own opinions and even actively disagree with a hierarch especially when it comes to church politics. I've kissed the hand of the Patriarch in Constantinople even while at the same time I disagree with a lot of what he says about the OCA and many other matters regarding church politics.

The Patriarch of Constantinople isn't the greatest guy to reference either. He has a lot of issues. In fact, he acts so persecuted and like he's the last man standing when he isn't just the Patriarch for the Greeks but all people in his jurisdiction regardless of ethnicity. His church is dying and they aren't doing much about it other than crying to the UN, EU and US for help.
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« Reply #68 on: October 25, 2012, 01:55:33 PM »

Yes, maybe it has something with mentality.
I was teached to say: "let it be blessed" to older even if he is a wrong.

But, maybe you have american democratic or protestant mentality and always need to have your opinion and insist on it till the end.

 

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« Reply #69 on: October 25, 2012, 02:05:22 PM »

Yes, maybe it has something with mentality.
I was teached to say: "let it be blessed" to older even if he is a wrong.

But, maybe you have american democratic or protestant mentality and always need to have your opinion and insist on it till the end.

No, I'm a human being, a homo sapiens with a rational mind. We don't sign off our rational thinking and free will when we become Orthodox.

There are things that matter, like doctrine that we have to agree upon as Orthodox Christians. These are outlined in things like the Creed and in our liturgical worship.

However, there are things like certain aspects of theology which we can form our own personal opinions on. This is called in Greek theologoumena (θεολογουμενα in Greek I think)
We also can form our own opinion on things not related to matters of theology, like church politics.

In addition to this, we don't stubbornly and legalistically stick to the legal & administrative canons in our church like they are laws we must obey all the time. We have something called economy (οικονομια) where we are allowed, for certain circumstances and reasons, allowed to bend rules such as our canons.

As for our Bishops, we respect the office, but we do not have to listen to them like everything they speak is law (because it isn't).

There are many times throughout history where the laypeople or the monastics have had to chastize and correct the Bishops. Sometimes it just has to happen.
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« Reply #70 on: October 25, 2012, 02:09:33 PM »

Yes, maybe it has something with mentality.
I was teached to say: "let it be blessed" to older even if he is a wrong.

But, maybe you have american democratic or protestant mentality and always need to have your opinion and insist on it till the end.

No, I'm a human being, a homo sapiens with a rational mind. We don't sign off our rational thinking and free will when we become Orthodox.

There are things that matter, like doctrine that we have to agree upon as Orthodox Christians. These are outlined in things like the Creed and in our liturgical worship.

However, there are things like certain aspects of theology which we can form our own personal opinions on. This is called in Greek theologoumena (θεολογουμενα in Greek I think)
We also can form our own opinion on things not related to matters of theology, like church politics.

In addition to this, we don't stubbornly and legalistically stick to the legal & administrative canons in our church like they are laws we must obey all the time. We have something called economy (οικονομια) where we are allowed, for certain circumstances and reasons, allowed to bend rules such as our canons.

As for our Bishops, we respect the office, but we do not have to listen to them like everything they speak is law (because it isn't).

There are many times throughout history where the laypeople or the monastics have had to chastize and correct the Bishops. Sometimes it just has to happen.

Thank you for enlighten me.
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« Reply #71 on: October 25, 2012, 02:11:07 PM »

Yes, maybe it has something with mentality.
I was teached to say: "let it be blessed" to older even if he is a wrong.

But, maybe you have american democratic or protestant mentality and always need to have your opinion and insist on it till the end.
Well, Alexandria and Antioch we are older than the upstart on the Bosphoros.  So we have no problem telling the Phanar it is wrong?
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« Reply #72 on: October 25, 2012, 02:14:28 PM »

Well, Alexandria and Antioch we are older than the upstart on the Bosphoros.  So we have no problem telling the Phanar it is wrong?

Tell whatever you want. This is a free country.
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« Reply #73 on: October 25, 2012, 02:20:37 PM »

Well, Alexandria and Antioch we are older than the upstart on the Bosphoros.  So we have no problem telling the Phanar it is wrong?

Tell whatever you want. This is a free country.
Which country would that be?

Facts are not free. In fact, they can be downright constrictive.
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« Reply #74 on: October 25, 2012, 02:31:03 PM »

Well, Alexandria and Antioch we are older than the upstart on the Bosphoros.  So we have no problem telling the Phanar it is wrong?

Tell whatever you want. This is a free country.

Well, while we may sit and type in the United States, the Internet is state-less. Freedom of speech on here is determined largely by each website and its administrator.

As is often said, the Internet is the largest experment in anarchy the world has ever seen. Unfortunately some people like it that way, but that is another discussion.
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« Reply #75 on: November 02, 2012, 12:19:27 PM »

Nationality and wrong moves aside. It seems that the bigger problem with the region in general is the heightened control of secular thinking from the EU to have these nations either reform to stay in, or reform to get in. Because of this the Church suffers. Regardless of what Serbians or Greeks or Macedonians think who or what Macedonians are, where their roots stem - each Orthodox Synod should consider easing these tendencies in order to unify the Church to combat the tide of secularism. I know, for instance, the Macedonian government has gotten a lot of flack from left leaning voices because the government has come out against same-sex marriage, as well as the need to combat lower birthrates. Serbia is also facing this in her future.

As it stands, this overt nationalism plays straight in the hands of secularism as well as the rise of Islamism in the region, which goes hand in hand with the secular movement.

Besides, the way I see it - nationalism that is placed before the faith is an illness and the best way to heal an illness is to co-celebrate the Divine Liturgy with those who you may not consider your friend. The Synod's shouldn't be focused about whether or not the Macedonian Church should be granted Autocephly, whether or not they made a wrong move in 1967 etc etc, rather they should be focused on what parameters the Church come together and celebrate the Liturgy to foster unity. Eventually, people who are included in communion and get a taste of the Truth, grow in the faith and will brush aside the scales of nationalism. The sooner this begins to happen, the sooner I believe Archbishop John+ will be granted amnesty. And the sooner this sin is removed.
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« Reply #76 on: February 12, 2013, 03:19:25 AM »

As I start reading I can not believe how some of you here can question another persons ethnicity and also dismiss their church as being some propaganda tool.

Firstly I am Macedonian whether you like it or not. I am not a slav. The Greeks use this to justify thier claim to Ancient Macedonia and anything Macedonian.

Secondly Archbishop Jovan (Vranishkovski) is a tool used by the Serbian church to create a new Macedonian church that would adhere to there rules and would directly be under their jurisdiction. Also he did commit all those crimes that is why he is in jail.    

MOC does not need SOC or any other Orthodox churches approval it is simply a continuation of our church as a free church after the forceful tactics of the Serbian state after 1913 and then under Tito's Yugoslavia.

How nice of the Greeks to bring their dirty politics into an Orthodox forum.

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« Reply #77 on: February 12, 2013, 09:13:12 AM »

I am not a slav.

So why do you have Slavonic nick and signature?
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« Reply #78 on: February 12, 2013, 09:41:26 AM »

Alexander the Great was a Greek who was born in what is now called Greece. Oh, and he spoke Greek
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« Reply #79 on: February 12, 2013, 09:42:06 AM »

As I start reading I can not believe how some of you here can question another persons ethnicity and also dismiss their church as being some propaganda tool.

Firstly I am Macedonian whether you like it or not. I am not a slav.
Macedonians are.
The Greeks use this to justify thier claim to Ancient Macedonia and anything Macedonian.
The ancient Macedonians claimed to be Greek.

Secondly Vranishkovski

Firstly, that's Archbishop Jovan VI of Ohrid and Metropolitan of Skopje.
is a tool used by the Serbian church to create a new Macedonian church that would adhere to there rules and would directly be under their jurisdiction. Also he did commit all those crimes that is why he is in jail.
So Macedonia has criminalized Orthodoxy and its canons.  Interesting.

So its "there" rules.  That means you place yourself outside of Orthodoxy and our rules.

MOC does not need SOC or any other Orthodox churches approval it is simply a continuation of our church as a free church after the forceful tactics of the Serbian state after 1913 and then under Tito's Yugoslavia.
So a slavic version of Henry VIII's Anglican church, of the eastern rite.

How nice of the Greeks to bring their dirty politics into an Orthodox forum.
Abp. Jovan isn't Greek.  He's Macedonian.
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« Reply #80 on: February 12, 2013, 10:56:42 AM »

MOC does not need SOC or any other Orthodox churches
So what are you doing here if you do not need any Orthodox Church.
You are sect.

Macedonia is only one and it is Greek.

FYROM is Serbia
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« Reply #81 on: February 12, 2013, 11:16:29 AM »

MOC does not need SOC or any other Orthodox churches
So what are you doing here if you do not need any Orthodox Church.
You are sect.

Macedonia is only one and it is Greek.

FYROM is Serbia

One chauvinist BS vs. other one chauvinist BS.

<popcorn>
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« Reply #82 on: February 12, 2013, 11:27:53 AM »

MOC does not need SOC or any other Orthodox churches
So what are you doing here if you do not need any Orthodox Church.
You are sect.
evidently so.
Macedonia is only one and it is Greek.

FYROM is Serbia
evidently not
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« Reply #83 on: February 12, 2013, 11:41:59 AM »

One chauvinist BS vs. other one chauvinist BS.
What is the name for your attitude on Belarus and your Anti-Russian sentiment?
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« Reply #84 on: February 12, 2013, 11:47:51 AM »

evidently not
evidently yes
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9MQ6IkPkyvY
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« Reply #85 on: February 12, 2013, 11:49:42 AM »



One chauvinist BS vs. other one chauvinist BS.

<popcorn>

Oh, you got to love Balkan politics.
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« Reply #86 on: February 12, 2013, 11:55:48 AM »

One chauvinist BS vs. other one chauvinist BS.
What is the name for your attitude on Belarus and your Anti-Russian sentiment?

I do not try to change beliefs of others. I try to stick to my own identity and allow others to live their way.
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« Reply #87 on: February 12, 2013, 12:04:45 PM »

The descent into Balkan politics has been deeper and faster than normal. Let's take a recess. Thanks, Carl Kraeff
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« Reply #88 on: February 12, 2013, 12:24:40 PM »

30 days for no title.

"Secondly Archbishop Jovan (Vranishkovski) is a tool used by the Serbian church to create a new Macedonian church that would adhere to there rules and would directly be under their jurisdiction. Also he did commit all those crimes that is why he is in jail."   

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« Reply #89 on: May 08, 2013, 11:26:19 AM »

Thread is unlocked. Carl Kraeff
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