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Author Topic: Do Orthodox Christian believe bible is 100% correct and no mistake?  (Read 3546 times) Average Rating: 0
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walter1234
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« on: October 21, 2012, 12:41:55 PM »

Do Orthodox Christian believe that bible is 100% correct and no mistake?
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« Reply #1 on: October 21, 2012, 01:05:02 PM »

What do you mean by "correct"? There are different traditions of understanding and reading the Bible. In my own church, the Coptic Orthodox Church, we tend toward metaphorical, not necessarily literal readings of the scriptures. This does not mean that the Bible is "false" at all...only that sometimes what we read in the text is not necessarily how the text has been understood in history. If you read the Early Church Fathers' commentaries on the scriptures, you'll see that there are many different opinions and understandings on any given passage, all without asking whether it's "true" or "false".

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« Reply #2 on: October 21, 2012, 01:50:45 PM »

Yes, it is correct for the purpose it was intended for. 
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walter1234
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« Reply #3 on: October 21, 2012, 01:52:15 PM »

Yes, it is correct for the purpose it was intended for. 

Whst is the purpose the bible was inteneded for?
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« Reply #4 on: October 21, 2012, 02:16:23 PM »

Yes, it is correct for the purpose it was intended for. 

Whst is the purpose the bible was inteneded for?

I think that needs to be answered on a book to book basis.  While Genesis is correct, the point of the first two chapters is not to be scientific about the exact origins of the cosmos.  Likewise, when details differ in accounts in the gospels, that doesn't change the truth of the accounts.  Now if you are asking if the Orthodox believe that every single detail of history is exact and perfectly correct according to the historical record, that is something entirely different.
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« Reply #5 on: October 21, 2012, 02:32:35 PM »

Yes, it is correct for the purpose it was intended for. 

Whst is the purpose the bible was inteneded for?

For our enlighenment. Scripture is part of holy tradition which was written down. It also teaches us about God.

Some people try to use it as a textbook for everything or as a magical book that will tell them what to do in any situation specifically. Scripture first of all is a collection of writings (and there are several versions of these writings in the original languages). Second, it is the written experience of God, written by the Church--both Old and New Israel. It is inspired by the Holy Spirit, but one would be going beyond oneself to say it was dictated by the Holy Spirit word for word. It is a product of synergy--the cooperation of men with God.
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« Reply #6 on: October 21, 2012, 11:12:31 PM »

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,46774.0.html

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,4470.0.html

Here a two links, one's on the NT and the other the OT.


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« Reply #7 on: October 21, 2012, 11:52:02 PM »

St. John of Kronstadt, My Life in Christ, p. 70:
When you doubt the truth of any person or event described in Holy Scripture, then remember that “all Scripture is given by inspiration of God,” as the Apostle says and is therefore true, and does not contain any imaginary persons, fables, and tales, although it includes parables, which everyone can see are not true narratives, but are written in figurative language. The whole of the word of God is single, entire, indivisible truth; and if you admit that any narrative, sentence, or word is untrue, then you sin against the truth of the whole of Holy Scripture and its primordial truth, which is God Himself. “I am the truth,” said the Lord; “Thy word is truth,” said Jesus Christ to God the Father. Thus, consider the whole of the Holy Scripture as truth; everything that is said in it has either taken place or takes place.
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« Reply #8 on: October 22, 2012, 12:14:28 AM »

St. John of Kronstadt, My Life in Christ, p. 70:
When you doubt the truth of any person or event described in Holy Scripture, then remember that “all Scripture is given by inspiration of God,” as the Apostle says and is therefore true, and does not contain any imaginary persons, fables, and tales, although it includes parables, which everyone can see are not true narratives, but are written in figurative language. The whole of the word of God is single, entire, indivisible truth; and if you admit that any narrative, sentence, or word is untrue, then you sin against the truth of the whole of Holy Scripture and its primordial truth, which is God Himself. “I am the truth,” said the Lord; “Thy word is truth,” said Jesus Christ to God the Father. Thus, consider the whole of the Holy Scripture as truth; everything that is said in it has either taken place or takes place.


But it also shouldn't all be taken literally, and there are some minor (never major) errors within it, including some historical errors on the OT. You also have the issue where some ancient manuscripts weren't translated or edited properly or accurately. Of course the vast majority of those are caught and never make a significant difference.

The Apostles were humans like we are and they were inspired by God to write what they did, but it was their hand and their minds, they were t possessed by God and it wasnt dictated by him.

The Bible is entirely true, but it shouldn't always be thought of as scientific or historical fact. Did Jesus literally and really rose from the dead? Yes he most certainly was... But was the Earth literally created in only six literal days? Probably not, but that is up to personal opinion as it isn't a science textbook.

We're all the books written by the Prophets and Apostles themselves? Probably not all of them, but that doesn't change their God-inspired nature, because they aren't especially God inspired because of who wrote them, but because the Church recognizes them as being God inspired. So the search for the "original" NT text unedited doesnt matter because the additions and edits are all God inspired.
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« Reply #9 on: October 22, 2012, 04:21:05 AM »

Well, The Scripture is the writing down of Divine Revelation. How can Divine Revelation not be correct? The question would be if it was written down correctly. Well, the God-inspired Saints of The Church say that it was. Our duty is to preserve it and to make sure the translations are correct, etc.

The Scripture is simple and there is really not much room for interpretation. However, one's faith in God is absolutely needed, otherwise Scripture will mean nothing or will always be questioned (same as God is questioned).
That's not to say that there aren't layers of understanding and Divine Mysteries hidden in The Scriptures that require that we progress and attain higher and deeper understanding.  I would be careful about getting into the metaphorical versus literal discussion; it can be that there is really no "versus", that both may exist at the same time. Regardless, it is very clear when something is a parable, or a dream, or a narration. For example, Genesis is a narration, it is literal, but there are many "unseen" elements (or theological understandings) that can result from that narration.
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« Reply #10 on: October 22, 2012, 04:22:31 AM »

Well, The Scripture is the writing down of Divine Revelation. How can Divine Revelation not be correct? The question would be if it was written down correctly. Well, the God-inspired Saints of The Church say that it was. Our duty is to preserve it and to make sure the translations are correct, etc.

The Scripture is simple and there is really not much room for interpretation. However, one's faith in God is absolutely needed, otherwise Scripture will mean nothing or will always be questioned (same as God is questioned).
That's not to say that there aren't layers of understanding and Divine Mysteries hidden in The Scriptures that require that we progress and attain higher and deeper understanding.  I would be careful about getting into the metaphorical versus literal discussion; it can be that there is really no "versus", that both may exist at the same time. Regardless, it is very clear when something is a parable, or a dream, or a narration. For example, Genesis is a narration, it is literal, but there are many "unseen" elements (or theological understandings) that can result from that narration.
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« Reply #11 on: October 22, 2012, 07:04:52 AM »

Do Orthodox Christian believe that bible is 100% correct and no mistake?

I suppose it all depends on what one means by "no mistake" and who you ask.  If you mean is every bible that has ever been in print accurate with no mistakes, I would say no.  If you ask me if the scripture God provided mankind accurate with no mistakes, I would say yes.  Some bibles stink in their translation and some aren’t even worth being called a translations, rather a cliffs notes version of the original.

I think, in general, for what you are asking, I would say yes to both.
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« Reply #12 on: October 22, 2012, 08:13:24 AM »

The big problem with the "correctness" of the Bible is that for us, modern people, "truth" must be like a photograph, a prosaic copy into text of reality.

But photographs did not exist in the Ancient times. Even the "realistic" statues of the Greeks were not so real, since they represented ideal human beings (always physically perfect) and not real ones.

When someone was to give witness of something in any form of art - sculpting, painting, writing, music of singing poetry - nobody was expecting or even imagining that it was a historical witness in the photographic sense we expect today. They knew there was style and rethoric and aesthetics involved.

Keeping that in mind, the books that were later put together in that small portable library that is the Bible have varying purposes, which the Septuaginta made explicit: Law, History, Wisdom and Prophets.

Law comprises the Pentateuch, the first five books. The name is revealing. Genesis is *not* part of the Historical books as modern literalists would put it. It is part of a vast contextualization and justification of the Mosaic laws. It *has* historical elements to it, even of natural history, but that is not what it is meant to be. Put on top of that the fact that even the historic (and natural) events are not portrayed in a photographic way, but in a religious way and huge quotation marks must be put on most of the things there.

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« Reply #13 on: October 22, 2012, 08:46:21 AM »

From our photographic expectations - again, non-existent at the time - from Abraham on is when things start getting closer to attend what *we* would call "historical".  Genesis *is* literal in the sense that what it conveys - that One God created all that exists, that sin and death are not His will for us, that we stray from Him in our disobedience, that neither God nor us are not the first cause of evil some pessimists paint , but an exterior, personal individual being, that God loves and cares about us, and acts in our personal lives and in the historical events that mark humanity, this is all literally true.

Now a personal perspective. This is my own interpretation of Orthodox and other sources, so it is but a theologumen.

I do believe that physical laws have changed in time. In fact, I believe the very nature of time has changed. This is a witness that is universal, even outside Jewish-Christian sources. A "Golden Age" where time somehow developed under different rules, where we were "immortal", and the world a kind of garden for us, and we were created by a God (or gods) is widespread in Human cultures. Maybe it is just a psychological issue, a vice of "old times were better", but I think the resurrection is a precedent to think otherwise.

The resurrection claims nothing less than a change in natural law. We were "prisoners of death" and we no longer are. The rules changed. We will resurrect, and physically speaking, this means entropy will be abolished. Now the abolition of entropy has widely reaching consequences. It can only happen with radical changes to space-time as we know it.
One of the assumptions – and indeed dogmas of faith – of modern science is that the physical laws don’t and can’t change.  Jesus’ resurrection is a proof that they can and have changed. If that is the case, the pan-religious concept of “eons” where the very rules of existence are different, becomes more plausible. And all these theories – Genesis included – put our origins in this other space-time where we were “killable” but not naturally “dying”.  If that is true, then evolution is just a kind of parallax mistake, it is what the origin looks like from this side of the change of eons, if the laws of nature had always been like they are today.
This is what can be called “Triathlon” model where the runners have to change from swimming, to cycling to running. The rules and means of the race change along the competition. If one tried to explain why and how runner A got there first and assumed that they all had been just running all the time, the person would have to make a lot of assumptions about the speed a human being can run to account for the not-seen cycling period and about how we could have crossed that stretch of water. These assumptions would be correct in that they would account for how a man can cross water or run that much faster. Maybe the scientist from the running perspective would say the man had a different density when crossing the water, and that he was faster because he was younger and lighter, but as he got close to the finishing line he got heavier and more dense. Or maybe he would say that there was an alternative, shorter way for the runners and they had never crossed the water or used the road at all. One of these theories would *necessarily* be true, if running was all that the man could do. But it so happens it is not.
I believe that is what happens to the universe. It could do otherwise in the past and it did. And Jesus came precisely to put reality back on track and bring it closer to Him.
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« Reply #14 on: October 29, 2012, 12:11:57 AM »

*Can* an Orthodox Christian believe in Scriptural inerrancy?
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« Reply #15 on: October 29, 2012, 08:11:50 AM »

yeah of course.
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« Reply #16 on: October 29, 2012, 10:46:23 AM »

yeah of course.
Does the OC accept Master Origen's view that God purposely placed errors in Scripture for believers to search for the text's greater spiritual meaning?
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« Reply #17 on: October 29, 2012, 11:01:54 AM »

yeah of course.
Does the OC accept Master Origen's view that God purposely placed errors in Scripture for believers to search for the text's greater spiritual meaning?

not that i know of. sounds whack to me.
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« Reply #18 on: October 29, 2012, 11:58:11 AM »

The thing is the Lord told us via the samaritan woman in John 4:24 to worship God in spirit & in truth. He summed up the old covenant with the golden rule & the 2 great commands. St. Paul seems to expound on this in 2 Corinthians 3. How some of the more difficult aspects of the old covenant reconcile in this I do not know & yet in the summation of the faith (thanks be to the Lord Jesus Christ & His commands) there is the beauty of salvation. In 2 Corinthians 3:17, St. Paul states (which seems to explain what the Lord says in John 4:24), "Now the Lord is that Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty." (KJV). The need for commitment to the faith the Lord gives us is enough to occupy us 24/7 & this includes our intellects (as we are able). This is where the worship of the church in the divine liturgy turns us to God & our liberty is fulfilled. Reading the Bible enriches the laypersons faith & protects us against human abuses that can manifest among the clergy or laity.
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« Reply #19 on: October 29, 2012, 12:03:09 PM »

*Can* an Orthodox Christian believe in Scriptural inerrancy?

No they cannot and they certainly shouldn't. They be very wrong to believe so. We don't have concepts of inerrancy or infallibility. Is scripture true? Yes. Is it without any kind if error? No.
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« Reply #20 on: October 29, 2012, 12:03:52 PM »

yeah of course.
Does the OC accept Master Origen's view that God purposely placed errors in Scripture for believers to search for the text's greater spiritual meaning?

Citation please? Preferably with the rest of the context of his statement.
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« Reply #21 on: October 31, 2012, 04:44:55 PM »

yeah of course.
Does the OC accept Master Origen's view that God purposely placed errors in Scripture for believers to search for the text's greater spiritual meaning?

Citation please? Preferably with the rest of the context of his statement.
I think it's in his "philocalia." I will have to give a more detailed response later.

--Gotta dash
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« Reply #22 on: October 31, 2012, 04:58:07 PM »

Do Orthodox Christian believe that bible is 100% correct and no mistake?

Of course.  It is also mysteriological and multi-valent. 
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« Reply #23 on: October 31, 2012, 05:29:17 PM »

Do Orthodox Christian believe that bible is 100% correct and no mistake?

Of course.  It is also mysteriological and multi-valent. 

Of course as in it is 100% true? Not as in it is 100% inerrant? There are some factual historical & scientific errors in it, some translations (including ancient ones) have some mistakes and inconsistencies (none that affect doctrine or important things).

We have to be careful how we word these things and how we phrase our arguments, lest we come across as crazy Protestant fundies.
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« Reply #24 on: October 31, 2012, 05:34:23 PM »

Here's an excerpt from an article which discusses what I said earlier (see reply #16):

"What may appear as errors to us are intended by the Holy Spirit, to call the reader’s attention to 'the impossibility of the literal sense', and therefore signal the need for 'an examination of the inner meaning.'"

The article discusses Origen's view of the Bible.

http://www.quodlibet.net/articles/gray-origen.shtml
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« Reply #25 on: October 31, 2012, 05:38:38 PM »

Here's an excerpt from an article which discusses what I said earlier (see reply #16):

"What may appear as errors to us are intended by the Holy Spirit, to call the reader’s attention to 'the impossibility of the literal sense', and therefore signal the need for 'an examination of the inner meaning.'"

The article discusses Origen's view of the Bible.

http://www.quodlibet.net/articles/gray-origen.shtml

Well, Origen isn't a Church Father or a Saint. On top of that, we don't hang on every word of a Saint or Father, they sometimes said things that were wrong.

The writers of the scriptures were humans and made errors. They weren't being dictated the scriptures by God.
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« Reply #26 on: October 31, 2012, 05:41:07 PM »

Here's an excerpt from an article which discusses what I said earlier (see reply #16):

"What may appear as errors to us are intended by the Holy Spirit, to call the reader’s attention to 'the impossibility of the literal sense', and therefore signal the need for 'an examination of the inner meaning.'"

The article discusses Origen's view of the Bible.

http://www.quodlibet.net/articles/gray-origen.shtml

Well, Origen isn't a Church Father or a Saint. On top of that, we don't hang on every word of a Saint or Father, they sometimes said things that were wrong.

The writers of the scriptures were humans and made errors. They weren't being dictated the scriptures by God.
I know. I was simply providing a reference to what I said earlier.
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« Reply #27 on: October 31, 2012, 06:36:22 PM »

What do you mean by "correct"? There are different traditions of understanding and reading the Bible. In my own church, the Coptic Orthodox Church, we tend toward metaphorical, not necessarily literal readings of the scriptures. This does not mean that the Bible is "false" at all...only that sometimes what we read in the text is not necessarily how the text has been understood in history. If you read the Early Church Fathers' commentaries on the scriptures, you'll see that there are many different opinions and understandings on any given passage, all without asking whether it's "true" or "false".



LOL, the exact same thing can be said about the Talmudic Rabbis.

Over literalism can be very dangerous, just look at the Wahabi Saudis.
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« Reply #28 on: October 31, 2012, 06:50:11 PM »

St. Gregory the Theologian, Oration II: In Defence of His Flight to Pontus, and His Return, After His Ordination to the Priesthood, with an Exposition of the Character of the Priestly Office , ch. 105, NPNF2-7. p.225
We however, who extend the accuracy of the Spirit to the merest stroke and tittle, will never admit the impious assertion that even the smallest matters were dealt with haphazard by those who have recorded them, and have thus been borne in mind down to the present day: on the contrary, their purpose has been to supply memorials and instructions for our consideration under similar circumstances, should such befall us, and that the examples of the past might serve as rules and models, for our warning and imitation.
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« Reply #29 on: October 31, 2012, 07:18:25 PM »

Do Orthodox Christian believe that bible is 100% correct and no mistake?

Of course.  It is also mysteriological and multi-valent. 

Of course as in it is 100% true? Not as in it is 100% inerrant? There are some factual historical & scientific errors in it, some translations (including ancient ones) have some mistakes and inconsistencies (none that affect doctrine or important things).

We have to be careful how we word these things and how we phrase our arguments, lest we come across as crazy Protestant fundies.
Yes, of course the bible is historically and scientifically inaccurate.  Science is always right and no one has ever proven something historically accurate by using scriptures when history books said it was wrong.  Right?
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« Reply #30 on: October 31, 2012, 08:38:08 PM »

Do Orthodox Christian believe that bible is 100% correct and no mistake?

Of course.  It is also mysteriological and multi-valent.  

Of course as in it is 100% true? Not as in it is 100% inerrant? There are some factual historical & scientific errors in it, some translations (including ancient ones) have some mistakes and inconsistencies (none that affect doctrine or important things).

We have to be careful how we word these things and how we phrase our arguments, lest we come across as crazy Protestant fundies.
Yes, of course the bible is historically and scientifically inaccurate.  Science is always right and no one has ever proven something historically accurate by using scriptures when history books said it was wrong.  Right?

Your sarcasm falls flat on your face. I never said it was historically and scientifically inaccurate, I said there are some factual errors in it.

Unless you are an idiot/retarded Fundamentalist, you shouldn't believe that its perfect. Orthodox Christians should not believe it is perfect or inerrant. If you do, then you need to get rid of your Protestant fundamentalism, it has no place in the church.
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« Reply #31 on: October 31, 2012, 08:50:09 PM »

St. Irenaeus, Against Heresies 2.18.2. We should leave things of that nature to God who created us, being most properly assured that the Scriptures are indeed perfect, since they were spoken by the Word of God and His Spirit
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« Reply #32 on: October 31, 2012, 09:00:09 PM »

St. Irenaeus, Against Heresies 2.18.2. We should leave things of that nature to God who created us, being most properly assured that the Scriptures are indeed perfect, since they were spoken by the Word of God and His Spirit

Like I've said before, we aren't like Protestant fundies. The Church Fathers & Saints don't replace Scripture on "infallibility". Just because you quote from a Saint doesn't mean much unless measured against the rest of Church history & the Fathers.

Fundamentalism is not Orthodox.

The scriptures are holy, God-breathed works. But they are works written by humans in human words, with human errors.

No one is saying Christ didn't rise from the dead or that David didn't exist. What we are saying is that there are minor errors, including some factual errors.

You're an idiot if you try to insist that the universe could have only been created in 6 literal days literally as written in Genesis. Earlier Church Fathers didn't know any better and we can't fault them for it, but we can certainly fault you for believing it because you should know better now. Church Fathers knew the value of science and used it rather than disregarding it.

If you want to be Orthodox, give up your Fundamentalism.
 You are warned for 30 days for using ad hominems--"You're an idiot... and ""give up your Fundamentalism." Watch you temper and language please. Carl Kraeff
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« Reply #33 on: October 31, 2012, 09:07:42 PM »

Met. Hierotheos Vlachos, The Person in the Orthodox Tradition, p. 46:
Fourthly, Basil the Great does not entirely accept the science of his time, but he judges it by theological criteria, as can be seen in his homilies about the six days of creation.

Fr. Michael Pomazansky says of St. Basil: “St. Basil acknowledges all the scientific facts of natural science. But he does not accept the philosophical conceptions, or the interpretations of the facts … St. Basil the Great knew how to raise himself above the theories contemporary to him concerning the basic principles of the world.” “Talks on the Six Days by St. Basil the Great and Talks on the Days of Creation by St. John of Kronstadt,”  Pravoslavny put’ (The Orthodox Way) annual, 1958, p. 39, 41

St. Theophan the Recluse, St Feofan Zatvornik, Nastavleniya v duhovnoi zhisni. - Pskov-Pechery Monastery of Holy Dormition: Mosc. Patriarchate Publ., 1994, http://creatio.orthodoxy.ru/sbornik/sbufeev_whynot_english.html :
The positive teaching of the Church serves to know whether a concept is from the Truth. This is a litmus test for all teachings. Whatever agrees with it, you should accept it, whatever does not- - reject. One can do it without further deliberations.
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« Reply #34 on: October 31, 2012, 09:16:35 PM »

Met. Hierotheos Vlachos, The Person in the Orthodox Tradition, p. 46:
Fourthly, Basil the Great does not entirely accept the science of his time, but he judges it by theological criteria, as can be seen in his homilies about the six days of creation.

Fr. Michael Pomazansky says of St. Basil: “St. Basil acknowledges all the scientific facts of natural science. But he does not accept the philosophical conceptions, or the interpretations of the facts … St. Basil the Great knew how to raise himself above the theories contemporary to him concerning the basic principles of the world.” “Talks on the Six Days by St. Basil the Great and Talks on the Days of Creation by St. John of Kronstadt,”  Pravoslavny put’ (The Orthodox Way) annual, 1958, p. 39, 41

St. Theophan the Recluse, St Feofan Zatvornik, Nastavleniya v duhovnoi zhisni. - Pskov-Pechery Monastery of Holy Dormition: Mosc. Patriarchate Publ., 1994, http://creatio.orthodoxy.ru/sbornik/sbufeev_whynot_english.html :
The positive teaching of the Church serves to know whether a concept is from the Truth. This is a litmus test for all teachings. Whatever agrees with it, you should accept it, whatever does not- - reject. One can do it without further deliberations.


You're an idiot if you think any of that means you shouldn't use the brain God gave you deny all scientific and historical fact that you personally think contradicts the Bible.

We aren't a religion of gurus jck. Just quoting fathers & saints doesn't do anything, just like quoting scripture doesn't "prove" anything. We don't have gurus, and we don't blindly follow our Saints and our Fathers.

If you are a fundamentalist & Biblical literalist (especially when it comes to scripture), you're an idiot, plain and simple.

Who are you going to quote next? Elder Paisios and Fr. Seraphim Rose? lol

I can quote people too, I have St. Augustine immediately on my mind, and for modern figures/authors there are Dr. Jeannie Constantinou and Metropolitan Kallistos Ware.
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« Reply #35 on: October 31, 2012, 09:17:50 PM »

St. Augustine, Letter to Jerome 1.3:
For I confess to your Charity that I have learned to yield this respect and honour only to the canonical books of Scripture: of these alone do I most firmly believe that the authors were completely free from error.
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« Reply #36 on: October 31, 2012, 09:18:45 PM »

St. Augustine, Letter to Jerome 1.3:
For I confess to your Charity that I have learned to yield this respect and honour only to the canonical books of Scripture: of these alone do I most firmly believe that the authors were completely free from error.

You're a heretic if you believe in Fundamentalism and absolute Biblical Literalism.

jckstraw, you seem to simply be a Protestant Fundamentalist in Orthodox clothing. Instead of quoting the Bible to "prove" your point, you now quote Saints, Fathers, spiritual mothers & fathers etc... Do you think you are proving some point by doing so? You are no more effective in your argument than the Protestant Fundamentalist idiots out there.
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« Reply #37 on: October 31, 2012, 09:23:37 PM »

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« Reply #38 on: October 31, 2012, 09:24:16 PM »

St. Cyril of Alexandria, Commentary on the Prophet Isaiah 1.4, PG 70.192AB:
Those who reject the historical meaning in the God-inspired Scriptures as something obsolete are avoiding the ability to apprehend rightly, according to the proper manner, the things written in them. For indeed spiritual contemplation is both good and profitable; and, in enlightening the eye of reason especially well, it reveals the wisest things. But whenever some historical events are presented to us by the Holy Scriptures, then in that instance, a useful search into the historical meaning is appropriate, in order that the God-inspired Scripture be revealed as salvific and beneficial to us in every way.
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« Reply #39 on: October 31, 2012, 09:24:52 PM »

I can play your game too:

"Usually, even a non-Christian knows something about the earth, the heavens, and the other elements of this world, about the motion and orbit of the stars and even their size and relative positions, about the predictable eclipses of the sun and moon, the cycles of the years and the seasons, about the kinds of animals, shrubs, stones, and so forth, and this knowledge he hold to as being certain from reason and experience. Now, it is a disgraceful and dangerous thing for an infidel to hear a Christian, presumably giving the meaning of Holy Scripture, talking nonsense on these topics; and we should take all means to prevent such an embarrassing situation, in which people show up vast ignorance in a Christian and laugh it to scorn. The shame is not so much that an ignorant individual is derided, but that people outside the household of faith think our sacred writers held such opinions, and, to the great loss of those for whose salvation we toil, the writers of our Scripture are criticized and rejected as unlearned men. If they find a Christian mistaken in a field which they themselves know well and hear him maintaining his foolish opinions about our books, how are they going to believe those books in matters concerning the resurrection of the dead, the hope of eternal life, and the kingdom of heaven, when they think their pages are full of falsehoods and on facts which they themselves have learnt from experience and the light of reason? Reckless and incompetent expounders of Holy Scripture bring untold trouble and sorrow on their wiser brethren when they are caught in one of their mischievous false opinions and are taken to task by those who are not bound by the authority of our sacred books. For then, to defend their utterly foolish and obviously untrue statements, they will try to call upon Holy Scripture for proof and even recite from memory many passages which they think support their position, although they understand neither what they say nor the things about which they make assertion."
-St. Augustine, Literal Meaning of Genesis. Translation by J. H. Taylor in Ancient Christian Writers, Newman Press, 1982, volume 41.
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« Reply #40 on: October 31, 2012, 09:26:30 PM »

St. Methodios, Concerning Chastity 3.2:
For it is a dangerous thing wholly to despise the literal meaning, as has been said, and especially of Genesis.
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« Reply #41 on: October 31, 2012, 09:27:40 PM »

St. Cyril of Alexandria, Commentary on the Prophet Isaiah 1.4, PG 70.192AB:
Those who reject the historical meaning in the God-inspired Scriptures as something obsolete are avoiding the ability to apprehend rightly, according to the proper manner, the things written in them. For indeed spiritual contemplation is both good and profitable; and, in enlightening the eye of reason especially well, it reveals the wisest things. But whenever some historical events are presented to us by the Holy Scriptures, then in that instance, a useful search into the historical meaning is appropriate, in order that the God-inspired Scripture be revealed as salvific and beneficial to us in every way.


Again, your quotations are useless.

The historical interpretation of scripture is very important. It is also very important we don't ignore the fact that things like the resurrection really happened.

However, to assume that every bit of the Bible, including the reigns of kings, battles & historical references are 100% accurate is just plain stupid, and has proven to be wrong.

Like I said, you are acting like a Protestant Fundamentalist in Orthodox clothing.
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« Reply #42 on: October 31, 2012, 09:28:26 PM »

St. Augustine, On Genesis: The Refutation of the Manichees 2.3:
So then, this whole text must first be discussed in terms of history, and then in terms of prophecy. In terms of history deeds and events are being related, in terms of prophecy future events are being foretold. One should not look with a jaundiced eye, to be sure, on anyone who wants to take everything that is said here absolutely literally, and who can avoid blasphemy in doing so, and present everything as in accordance with Catholic faith; on the contrary one should hold up such a person as an outstanding and holy admirable understander of the text.
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« Reply #43 on: October 31, 2012, 09:29:20 PM »

jckstraw, as I said, you're nothing but a Protestant Fundamentalist parading around in Orthodox clothing, and instead of quoting the Bible as your "proof' you are quoting the Fathers. Give it up, and either accept the Orthodox faith or go join the fundie retards.
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« Reply #44 on: October 31, 2012, 09:31:53 PM »


I guess not... Cry

Better make my 3500th post a good one!
« Last Edit: October 31, 2012, 09:32:21 PM by Severian » Logged

On hiatus from posting. Forgive me if my posts have lacked humility or tact. Note that some of my older posts -especially those prior to late 2012- may not reflect my current views. In the meantime, please pray for my sinful self as I am in a critical and unsure juncture in my life. Thank you.
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