Author Topic: Top Reasons People Leave Orthodoxy  (Read 4725 times)

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Offline Gamliel

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Top Reasons People Leave Orthodoxy
« on: October 20, 2012, 01:33:46 PM »
If this has already been discussed, perhaps someone can point me to a thread:  I have read that there are inquirers who come into Orthodoxy and silently leave through the back door after a while.  I was wondering what the main reasons were?  I joined a Greek Orthodox Church a few years ago.  The two negatives I had were:

1.  Learning the Divine Liturgy
2.  Feeling less acceptance since I was not Greek.

    Eventually I asked enough about the Divine Liturgythat someone stood by me and showed me when we read the hymns in our bulletin and then get back to our liturgical book, so the first problem is taken care of.  Sometimes I still struggle with the 2nd one.
I am not asking this for myself, but because we have a new inquirer.  I am taking steps so that he will not go through the 2 negatives I did, but I was wondering what other reasons were for leaving Orthodoxy?
« Last Edit: October 20, 2012, 01:34:21 PM by Gamliel »

Offline WeldeMikael

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Re: Top Reasons People Leave Orthodoxy
« Reply #1 on: October 20, 2012, 01:38:06 PM »
Ethnicity and language ?

Offline stavros_388

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Re: Top Reasons People Leave Orthodoxy
« Reply #2 on: October 20, 2012, 04:05:40 PM »
Unrealistic expectations based on too much heady reading coming into the Church.
"This is the cross - to become dead to the whole world, to suffer sorrows, temptations and other passions of Christ; in bearing this cross with complete patience, we imitate Christ's passion and thus glorify our God the Father as His sons in grace and co-heirs of Christ." --St. Symeon the New Theologian

Offline Justin Kissel

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Re: Top Reasons People Leave Orthodoxy
« Reply #3 on: October 20, 2012, 04:12:31 PM »
Unrealistic expectations based on too much heady reading coming into the Church.

+1

Offline Shiny

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Re: Top Reasons People Leave Orthodoxy
« Reply #4 on: October 20, 2012, 04:15:41 PM »
Unrealistic expectations based on too much heady reading coming into the Church.
I'm glad you brought this up, because before I went to my first Divine Liturgy, I read Federica Matthews Green's points on what the Orthodox Church does, incense, people kissing and venerating icons, etc. It was all this mystical stuff.

That didn't happen at all on my first Liturgy. I was very dissapointed.

Until I found out I was in an WRO parish. :laugh:
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Offline Justin Kissel

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Re: Top Reasons People Leave Orthodoxy
« Reply #5 on: October 20, 2012, 04:19:50 PM »
They don't kiss icons or use incense in the WR?

Offline Orthodox11

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Re: Top Reasons People Leave Orthodoxy
« Reply #6 on: October 20, 2012, 04:25:40 PM »
Although I find a lot of the other stuff on that website a little on the questionable side, I think this is well worth a read.

Offline WeldeMikael

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Re: Top Reasons People Leave Orthodoxy
« Reply #7 on: October 20, 2012, 04:38:14 PM »
Unrealistic expectations based on too much heady reading coming into the Church.

+1

+2

Offline Shiny

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Re: Top Reasons People Leave Orthodoxy
« Reply #8 on: October 20, 2012, 04:39:58 PM »
They don't kiss icons or use incense in the WR?
No.
“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”

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Offline quietmorning

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Re: Top Reasons People Leave Orthodoxy
« Reply #9 on: October 20, 2012, 04:43:27 PM »
A feeling of being completely overwhelmed with what is required - especially during Lent.  For me it was very good for people to tell me that I've entered into the rabbit hole and it just keeps going and going . . .to take it very slow.
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Offline sheenj

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Re: Top Reasons People Leave Orthodoxy
« Reply #10 on: October 20, 2012, 05:36:11 PM »
They don't kiss icons or use incense in the WR?

Remember, the West didn't go through the severe periods of iconoclasm that the Byzantine East did. IIRC, much of the modern practice of venerating icons started as a reaction to the iconoclastic heresy.

Offline Great8

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Re: Top Reasons People Leave Orthodoxy
« Reply #11 on: October 20, 2012, 05:59:48 PM »
They don't kiss icons or use incense in the WR?
My parish uses incense.
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Offline Jetavan

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Re: Top Reasons People Leave Orthodoxy
« Reply #12 on: October 20, 2012, 06:09:37 PM »
No pews.
If you will, you can become all flame.
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Offline LBK

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Re: Top Reasons People Leave Orthodoxy
« Reply #13 on: October 20, 2012, 07:19:32 PM »
Quote
IIRC, much of the modern practice of venerating icons started as a reaction to the iconoclastic heresy.

Nonsense. Icons have been made and venerated since the dawn of Christianity.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2012, 07:19:54 PM by LBK »
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Offline Shiny

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Re: Top Reasons People Leave Orthodoxy
« Reply #14 on: October 20, 2012, 07:21:43 PM »
Quote
IIRC, much of the modern practice of venerating icons started as a reaction to the iconoclastic heresy.

Nonsense. Icons have been made and venerated since the dawn of Christianity.
Even in Judaism, no?
« Last Edit: October 20, 2012, 07:21:54 PM by Achronos »
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Offline Knee V

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Re: Top Reasons People Leave Orthodoxy
« Reply #15 on: October 20, 2012, 07:23:50 PM »
While this won't apply to all who leave Orthodoxy - and it may only apply to a small handful - there are many who leave for the same reason that people leave other churches: spiritual apathy and allowing the soil of our hearts to become hazardous to the seed of the Word which was planted in them.

Offline Agabus

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Re: Top Reasons People Leave Orthodoxy
« Reply #16 on: October 20, 2012, 07:35:49 PM »
Some leave because they have been trained to be consumers of religion, and while Orthodoxy is pretty neat for a while, it doesn't work on a consumer model in the long term.
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Offline JamesRottnek

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Re: Top Reasons People Leave Orthodoxy
« Reply #17 on: October 20, 2012, 08:18:33 PM »
Quote
IIRC, much of the modern practice of venerating icons started as a reaction to the iconoclastic heresy.

Nonsense. Icons have been made and venerated since the dawn of Christianity.

Did anyone say otherwise?  He only said that much of the current EO practice with regard to icons was a reaction to iconoclasm, not that there was no veneration before hand.
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Offline biro

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Re: Top Reasons People Leave Orthodoxy
« Reply #18 on: October 20, 2012, 08:24:06 PM »
I know for a fact that one of the reasons they made me wait for three years now to get chrismated is I'm not Greek.

Also, #3: my mother won't shut up.

Offline Kerdy

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Re: Top Reasons People Leave Orthodoxy
« Reply #19 on: October 20, 2012, 09:32:51 PM »
I’ve been Orthodox for two years now, and inquirer a year prior to that.  In honesty, I don’t go to Liturgy as often as I should, but I see no reason to leave.  If I ever thought it a possibility, I would never have joined.  The only place to go from here is to the Roman Catholic Church, which I could not do and feel right about the move, or go back to being Protestant, which will NEVER happen.

I suppose, by guessing, the main reason people leave is because they don’t submit themselves properly and remain “in the flesh”.  After some time, they decide what they want is more important than what they should be doing or how they should be living.  In the end, that is usually the choice one faces, God or self.  Sadly, more and more people are choosing self.

Offline podkarpatska

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Re: Top Reasons People Leave Orthodoxy
« Reply #20 on: October 20, 2012, 09:43:35 PM »

Offline Shlomlokh

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Re: Top Reasons People Leave Orthodoxy
« Reply #21 on: October 20, 2012, 09:52:43 PM »
People thinking they are more Orthodox than everyone else. I've seen this happen way too often.

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Offline podkarpatska

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Re: Top Reasons People Leave Orthodoxy
« Reply #22 on: October 20, 2012, 10:09:28 PM »
People thinking they are more Orthodox than everyone else. I've seen this happen way too often.

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I suspect that is a condition not unique just among us Orthodox when it comes to religions.

Offline Bruin5

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Re: Top Reasons People Leave Orthodoxy
« Reply #23 on: October 20, 2012, 11:29:10 PM »
Nobody tells them that Orthodoxy is a marathon, not a sprint...

Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: Top Reasons People Leave Orthodoxy
« Reply #24 on: October 20, 2012, 11:34:12 PM »
They don't kiss icons or use incense in the WR?
No.

WRO church and monastery I visited did.
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Top Reasons People Leave Orthodoxy
« Reply #25 on: October 20, 2012, 11:37:27 PM »
Unrealistic expectations based on too much heady reading coming into the Church.

+1

+2

+3
+4

There should be strict enforcement of the canon requiring a catechumen to attend 3 parish council meetings before chrismation.
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Offline Shiny

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Re: Top Reasons People Leave Orthodoxy
« Reply #26 on: October 20, 2012, 11:40:40 PM »
They don't kiss icons or use incense in the WR?
No.

WRO church and monastery I visited did.
Hmm interesting. Where is the WRO monastery, in Pennsylvania?

But my parish does not use incense and you dont see veneration of icons.
“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”

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Offline podkarpatska

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Re: Top Reasons People Leave Orthodoxy
« Reply #27 on: October 20, 2012, 11:55:46 PM »
Unrealistic expectations based on too much heady reading coming into the Church.

+1

+2

+3
+4

There should be strict enforcement of the canon requiring a catechumen to attend 3 parish council meetings before chrismation.

Then they would understand the difference between canon law and 'cannon' law!   ;)

Offline LBK

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Re: Top Reasons People Leave Orthodoxy
« Reply #28 on: October 20, 2012, 11:59:18 PM »
But my parish does not use incense and you dont see veneration of icons.

Orthodoxy without icon veneration?? IS OUTRAGE!! I'm not kidding. So what saint or feast is commemorated on the first Sunday of Lent in your parish?
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: Top Reasons People Leave Orthodoxy
« Reply #29 on: October 21, 2012, 12:18:21 AM »
Unrealistic expectations based on too much heady reading coming into the Church.

+1

+2

+3
+4

There should be strict enforcement of the canon requiring a catechumen to attend 3 parish council meetings before chrismation.

"You want to turn them into atheists?"

"That would require them serving on the parish council."
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If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
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Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: Top Reasons People Leave Orthodoxy
« Reply #30 on: October 21, 2012, 12:27:30 AM »
They don't kiss icons or use incense in the WR?
No.

WRO church and monastery I visited did.
Hmm interesting. Where is the WRO monastery, in Pennsylvania?

But my parish does not use incense and you dont see veneration of icons.

WRO practice varies widely parish to parish.

The monastery was Christminster in Hamilton, Ontario.

It could be the icons are venerated in a different way--prayer before them, bowing, showing reverence and respect other than kissing, per se.

The pious practices of the Western Orthodox from the first millenium haven't all been passed down to the Roman Catholics and Anglicans who then later became WRO. And many feel awkward taking up practices with which they are unfamiliar. There is also a lot of sometime nasty back and forth in and outside of WRO.

The truth is, icon veneration in the East, while it existed certainly, is not heavily documented prior to the seventh century. At that time, icons became more and more popular. There were several abuses that were downright iconolatry, like scraping off the paint and putting it in the chalice, etc. Iconoclasm, to end the abuses, moved against icons altogether. It was the iconocdules who brought out the Orthodox position--against heresy of iconoclasm and against abuses.

Since iconoclasm didn't affect the West to the same degree, Western Orthodox veneration of images didn't take on the same overt forms it did in the East. There was, IIRC, veneration of the cross at many times, and an icon of Christ in the Mass, but other than that, they made images, prayed before them, and treated them with respect, but did not necessarily kiss them. Also, many of them were on the walls. I'm not sure your average Western Orthodox of the first millenium had icons in his home. He may not have even had a cross. But this did not stop him from venerating the cross--making the sign of it on his body and on the ground during prostrations.
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If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
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Offline Shiny

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Re: Top Reasons People Leave Orthodoxy
« Reply #31 on: October 21, 2012, 12:27:55 AM »
edit: i think i misread that
« Last Edit: October 21, 2012, 12:36:39 AM by Achronos »
“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”

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Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: Top Reasons People Leave Orthodoxy
« Reply #32 on: October 21, 2012, 12:34:32 AM »
But my parish does not use incense and you dont see veneration of icons.

Orthodoxy without icon veneration?? IS OUTRAGE!! I'm not kidding. So what saint or feast is commemorated on the first Sunday of Lent in your parish?
Well we don't have a first Sunday in Lent, since we have Ash Wednesday.

IT would be the Sunday after Ash Wednesday, same as for the Eastern Rite, since their Lent begins on Monday before Ash Wednesday. Centuries ago in the West, the clergy started lent on Monday, and the people on Wednesday, or so I read somewhere. The WR has different set up for Sundays preceeding and in Lent, and a different lectionary.
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If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
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Offline Shiny

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Re: Top Reasons People Leave Orthodoxy
« Reply #33 on: October 21, 2012, 12:37:10 AM »
Sorry I misread LBK, I thought she said Lent starts on Sunday for us. My bad.

EDIT: To answer your question, I don't know.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2012, 12:46:54 AM by Achronos »
“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”

– St. Ambrose of Milan

Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: Top Reasons People Leave Orthodoxy
« Reply #34 on: October 21, 2012, 03:06:46 PM »
One reason converts leave is because they weren't looking for the right thing to begin with.
Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
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I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.

Offline celticfan1888

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Re: Top Reasons People Leave Orthodoxy
« Reply #35 on: October 21, 2012, 04:28:23 PM »
They don't kiss icons or use incense in the WR?
No.

I went to a few that did. ???
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Offline NicholasMyra

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Re: Top Reasons People Leave Orthodoxy
« Reply #36 on: October 21, 2012, 04:32:18 PM »
Remember, the West didn't go through the severe periods of iconoclasm that the Byzantine East did. IIRC, much of the modern practice of venerating icons started as a reaction to the iconoclastic heresy.
True to an extent.

However,

Kissing/prostrating practices of reverence are rather greek and middle-eastern as well. And the Western Church is western.
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Re: Top Reasons People Leave Orthodoxy
« Reply #37 on: October 21, 2012, 04:53:19 PM »
#1) They come from a prosletyzing Protestant family and Orthodoxy makes them a stranger from their family so they leave it.

#2) The amount of Church attendance required. People want a lazy, minimalist religion where all they have to do is 'love Jesus' and go to Church once a week for an hour. But Orthodoxy is an entire lifestyle that requires constant fasting, attending Church all of the time, multiple times a week sometimes, and when you are at Church, you have to really dedicate yourself and participate opposed to just sitting down and hearing a sermon.

#3) They cannot find an Orthodox Church close enough to them, so they eventually just burn out from lack of guidance and start attending the local Protestant and/or Roman Catholic Church and eventually fall into those crowds.

#4) Too much uncertainty about what happens directly after we die. This honestly frightens me more than anything.

#5) They meet a mate who belongs to another religion and/or other form of Christianity and they become tempted to leave Orthodoxy to make their mate happy and/or make things simple for their children so that two parents don't have different beliefs.

#6) No one at their Church is nice to them. Let's be honest, those Evangelical/New Protestant Churches that we love to mock so much put us to shame when it comes to kindness and welcoming new comers. I'll admit, I have never had a problem with this at my Church (Possibly because I attend an OCA Church which is the most 'Americanized'), but I have heard of many negative experiences people have had with other Orthodox Churches both from fellows at my Church from people on this website. These happy, American, potentially convertsky fellows enter their local Orthodox Church expecting to be welcomed with open-arms by happy, jolly folks. But all they find is a dead place with a bunch of quiet, somewhat rude people staring at them negatively, talking about them in their native tongue, ignoring them and making them feel unwelcomed. People have spiritual needs, they need to see kindness and be welcomed, and if we as the Orthodox--the 'light of the world'--cannot satisfy those needs for them, then I am afraid we are in a really bad situation.
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Offline Deborah

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Re: Top Reasons People Leave Orthodoxy
« Reply #38 on: October 21, 2012, 05:39:01 PM »
Although I find a lot of the other stuff on that website a little on the questionable side, I think this is well worth a read.

Yes that's a good article, and one I read whenever I need a sobering reality check. :)

On the OP's question - there's probably many reasons people leave Orthodoxy.  I think the best way to apostate-proof yourself is take it slowly; attend and become involved with a local Orthodox church, or if that's not possible, find and keep in contact with a priest and/or other Orthodox Christians in your country; ease into Orthodox life (prayer rule, fasting, etc), gradually, with guidance from a priest or other clergy; read the basics first (e.g. Met. Kallistos Ware's books, Didache and other early patrisic writing, Bible) before more mystical and advanced tomes like the Philokalia. Discussion forums like this are useful for learning, discussing issues and meeting other Orthodox Christians, but don't depend on them as your main go-to source and point of contact.  Enjoy your inquirer and catechumenate period - it can be a time of much frustration and testing, but what you learn and experience will strengthen your relationship with God and bear much fruit in your Christian walk from here on in.
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Offline Deborah

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Re: Top Reasons People Leave Orthodoxy
« Reply #39 on: October 21, 2012, 05:46:12 PM »
Unrealistic expectations based on too much heady reading coming into the Church.

+1

+2

+3
+4

There should be strict enforcement of the canon requiring a catechumen to attend 3 parish council meetings before chrismation.

"You want to turn them into atheists?"

"That would require them serving on the parish council."

lol...I'm about to attend my first one soon, can't wait! ;D  They can't be any worse than any other hobby/sport-based committee meeting I've experienced....
« Last Edit: October 21, 2012, 05:47:02 PM by Deborah »
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Offline Opus118

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Re: Top Reasons People Leave Orthodoxy
« Reply #40 on: October 21, 2012, 07:11:44 PM »
While this won't apply to all who leave Orthodoxy - and it may only apply to a small handful - there are many who leave for the same reason that people leave other churches: spiritual apathy and allowing the soil of our hearts to become hazardous to the seed of the Word which was planted in them.

I just want to note that I appreciate your posts on this forum and sometimes (not often) I disagree with them.

Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Top Reasons People Leave Orthodoxy
« Reply #41 on: October 21, 2012, 10:26:39 PM »
So this question is asked to Orthodox Christians in the Faith Issues section where people who have "somewhat" or "entirely" left Orthodoxy can't speak of why they left Orthodoxy without getting a spooky big green warning.

The funny thing is, nobody comes close to mentioning anything theological, things that bishops do, and the blame is placed solely on those who leave.

By the nature of the question asked placed in a moderated section on this board, you will only get biased answers.  If you really want to know the answers without bias, you should ask on other sections of this board.

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Offline Shiny

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Re: Top Reasons People Leave Orthodoxy
« Reply #42 on: October 21, 2012, 10:48:50 PM »
They don't kiss icons or use incense in the WR?
No.

I went to a few that did. ???
I don't think St. Marks here in Denver does it either. Both my church and St Marks converted to Orthodoxy, I think mine was originally a Lutheran church is why my priest said in my catechism. In any case our mass is very reminiscint of pre-Vatican II Trindentine Mass.

Although I love our small parish, I wouldn't recommend a WRO parish to someone newly inquiring into Orthodoxy incase of Romephobia.
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Offline katherineofdixie

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Re: Top Reasons People Leave Orthodoxy
« Reply #43 on: October 22, 2012, 09:50:34 AM »
Some leave because they have been trained to be consumers of religion, and while Orthodoxy is pretty neat for a while, it doesn't work on a consumer model in the long term.

Excellent point.
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Offline jah777

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Re: Top Reasons People Leave Orthodoxy
« Reply #44 on: October 22, 2012, 10:13:09 AM »
Some leave because they were baptized and christmated without repentance, and when it became clear that they would have to either embrace a lifestyle centered around their sinful passions, or a lifestyle centered around Christ, they chose their passions over Christ.

Similarly, people may leave because they expected instant theosis following reception into the Church.  They may have acquired information about Orthodoxy, but failed to acquire the virtues and to actually engage in spiritual battle.  So, disatisfied at their lack of deification after X number of years of merely external adherence to Orthodoxy, they left what they never knew and gave up what was never theirs.

Offline primuspilus

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Re: Top Reasons People Leave Orthodoxy
« Reply #45 on: October 22, 2012, 10:18:46 AM »
They don't kiss icons or use incense in the WR?
No.
I dont know what WRO parish you went to, but mine sure does. We use incense, kiss and venerate the icons, do the occasional prostration...heck we even use the occasional greek phrase during feast days (Pascha was the last time I believe).

My priest was an Anglican bishop, so I dont think it has to do with where the said priest came from.

PP

Quote
Unrealistic expectations based on too much heady reading coming into the Church.
+ whatever we're up to now.

PP
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Offline Αριστοκλής

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Re: Top Reasons People Leave Orthodoxy
« Reply #46 on: October 22, 2012, 11:06:34 AM »
Some leave due to intensive Internet self-catechizing.
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Offline Tallitot

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Re: Top Reasons People Leave Orthodoxy
« Reply #47 on: October 22, 2012, 11:57:18 AM »
I dont know what WRO parish you went to, but mine sure does. We use incense, kiss and venerate the icons, do the occasional prostration...heck we even use the occasional greek phrase during feast days (Pascha was the last time I believe).

My priest was an Anglican bishop, so I dont think it has to do with where the said priest came from.

PP
Not surprising, Anglicans come in 2 varieties- 'Low'n'Lazy" and "High'n'Crazy". My sig-o is the organist at an Episcopal church and they're using the EO setting of the Beatitudes as a communion hymn on All Saint's.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2012, 11:59:00 AM by Tallitot »
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Offline Orthodox11

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Re: Top Reasons People Leave Orthodoxy
« Reply #48 on: October 22, 2012, 12:10:43 PM »
WRO comes accross as very DIY in this thread. Is there really so little uniformity on matters so basic as the use of incense and icons?

Offline primuspilus

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Re: Top Reasons People Leave Orthodoxy
« Reply #49 on: October 22, 2012, 01:27:00 PM »
WRO comes accross as very DIY in this thread. Is there really so little uniformity on matters so basic as the use of incense and icons?
Well, WRO has only been instituted for about 30 or 40 years. I think thats one reason that for Antiochians, they now have a Bishop of contact. Hopefully, it'll bring about some uniformity, because there is a bit of confusion. There is alot of variations in everything from Liturgy (St. Tikhon, St. Gregory, Sarum, heck, I even heard of someone using St. Germanus), sign of the cross, incense, etc.

PP
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Offline HabteSelassie

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Re: Top Reasons People Leave Orthodoxy
« Reply #50 on: October 22, 2012, 01:56:29 PM »
Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!


The bigger question to ask is why are cradle Orthodox, and not just in the US, all over the world, leaving Orthodox?  We have a very active youth program here at my parish, and I am proud at what God has accomplished through our efforts, but alas, there are twice as many youth that got away and we can only pray in a few years when they settle down to start their families God brings them back.  So why are the top reasons folks leave Orthodoxy?

From my experience interacting with ethnic youth who've left their parishes (Ethiopians, Copts, Greeks) the biggest beef I always interpreted as being a kind of culture clash.  A lot of these young folks, even if outside of the US, feel like they are a different generation, a different culture than the Old World of Orthodox.  Here in the America it is exceptionally accentuated by the fact that all Americans kind of feel this way about life. Is the shove it (censored for mods :) ) approach to conflict.  The first instinct of being an American is to either fight a conflict or misunderstanding, or simply abandoned in for ego-boosting alternatives. Unfortunately it seems through our pop-culture we are exporting this caustic attitude across the world :(

The second issue I'd say is personality clashes.  I'm willing to wager that when ANYONE cradle or convert, youth or elder, leaves a parish either to go to a different parish or to leave the Church entirely, there are contributing personality conflicts with somebody.  Maybe they are beefing with the priests, maybe its the council, maybe its some body they ran into in the halls, maybe it is some kind of committee beef, but I have seen this happen several times. Further whenever I mediate conflicts for our teenagers and young adults at my parish, these personality conflicts are the number one issue.  "They said this.." or "He did that.." or "She said we can't do this.." or "They told us one thing and now they're telling us another thing.." are the biggest complaints I hear and the majority of conflicts I have to help solve.  Even among elders and leaders, I am on several committees at our parish, I have seen quarrels between priests, between bishops (!!), between gray-haired elders, between men and men, between women and women, between men and women, deacons, kids, everybody.  The Church is real life, we bring our real lives with us, and life is on the line daily for a lot of matters.  It is a struggle that reflects the human experience, and we are being healed by the Holy Spirit as we work it out together.  Sometimes some folks just can't deal with the strife, either because they have idealistic expectations or they just don't have the patience.  Some folks again leave to other parishes, others leave the Church for good.  We can only pray about all these kinds of matters, but we should be addressing them in our discussions.

So to summarize all that blah blah I typed above

(1) Culture Shock

(2) Personality conflicts and personal misunderstandings

This is for cradles and converts alike, but young folks in particular.


There should be strict enforcement of the canon requiring a catechumen to attend 3 parish council meetings before chrismation.

Then they'll never come back ;)

Speaking of which, I have a committee meeting on Sunday I am begrudgingly looking forward too  :angel:

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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Offline podkarpatska

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Re: Top Reasons People Leave Orthodoxy
« Reply #51 on: October 22, 2012, 02:01:05 PM »
How about never ending passionate arguments among Orthodox about the 'proper' way to pronounce dead languages?

Offline Alpo

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Re: Top Reasons People Leave Orthodoxy
« Reply #52 on: October 22, 2012, 02:54:23 PM »
WRO comes accross as very DIY in this thread. Is there really so little uniformity on matters so basic as the use of incense and icons?
Well, WRO has only been instituted for about 30 or 40 years. I think thats one reason that for Antiochians, they now have a Bishop of contact.

Antiochians have WR bishop? Who is he? ROCOR has bishop Jerome on Manhattan but I haven't heard of Antiochian counterpart.
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Offline Shiny

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Re: Top Reasons People Leave Orthodoxy
« Reply #53 on: October 22, 2012, 03:00:36 PM »
They don't kiss icons or use incense in the WR?
No.
I dont know what WRO parish you went to, but mine sure does. We use incense, kiss and venerate the icons, do the occasional prostration...heck we even use the occasional greek phrase during feast days (Pascha was the last time I believe).

My priest was an Anglican bishop, so I dont think it has to do with where the said priest came from.

PP
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Offline Αριστοκλής

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Re: Top Reasons People Leave Orthodoxy
« Reply #54 on: October 22, 2012, 03:08:29 PM »
How about never ending passionate arguments among Orthodox about the 'proper' way to pronounce dead languages?

There would be no debate if the language was dead. It is not.
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Offline podkarpatska

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Re: Top Reasons People Leave Orthodoxy
« Reply #55 on: October 22, 2012, 03:23:54 PM »
How about never ending passionate arguments among Orthodox about the 'proper' way to pronounce dead languages?

There would be no debate if the language was dead. It is not.

As to Koine - the debate is really for academics no matter how much folks try to justify it's relevance in  the daily lives of the average lay person here in the US and as to Church Slavonic - have you ever been in the middle of a pan-Orthodox Choir when the Ukies and the Russians are yelling it out over Gospodi or Hospodi?  ;)
« Last Edit: October 22, 2012, 03:24:13 PM by podkarpatska »

Offline Αριστοκλής

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Re: Top Reasons People Leave Orthodoxy
« Reply #56 on: October 22, 2012, 03:54:43 PM »
How about never ending passionate arguments among Orthodox about the 'proper' way to pronounce dead languages?

There would be no debate if the language was dead. It is not.

As to Koine - the debate is really for academics no matter how much folks try to justify it's relevance in  the daily lives of the average lay person here in the US and as to Church Slavonic - have you ever been in the middle of a pan-Orthodox Choir when the Ukies and the Russians are yelling it out over Gospodi or Hospodi?  ;)

LOL! No, but the topic has been debated at trapeza.  :D
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Offline celticfan1888

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Re: Top Reasons People Leave Orthodoxy
« Reply #57 on: October 22, 2012, 06:10:37 PM »
WRO comes accross as very DIY in this thread. Is there really so little uniformity on matters so basic as the use of incense and icons?

Well, I think it depends on the jurisdiction, as much as anything.
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Offline Orthodox11

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Re: Top Reasons People Leave Orthodoxy
« Reply #58 on: October 23, 2012, 05:18:16 AM »
Well, WRO has only been instituted for about 30 or 40 years. I think thats one reason that for Antiochians, they now have a Bishop of contact. Hopefully, it'll bring about some uniformity, because there is a bit of confusion. There is alot of variations in everything from Liturgy (St. Tikhon, St. Gregory, Sarum, heck, I even heard of someone using St. Germanus), sign of the cross, incense, etc.

I would have thought the fact that the WRO is so recent would have led to greater uniformity, greater caution by Church authorities, and greater reluctance to allow individual priests or parishes to experiment in such a pick-and-chose fashion. I get that there is a basic difference between Antioch using the revised BCP and ROCOR reconstructions of pre-schism rites, but surely its desirable for parishes under a single diocese to use a single rite (and what is mentioned above isn't even a question of rite, but of incense and iconography). I sincerely hope that the bishop you mentioned will help to solve the problem.

Offline primuspilus

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Re: Top Reasons People Leave Orthodoxy
« Reply #59 on: October 23, 2012, 06:10:36 AM »
Well, WRO has only been instituted for about 30 or 40 years. I think thats one reason that for Antiochians, they now have a Bishop of contact. Hopefully, it'll bring about some uniformity, because there is a bit of confusion. There is alot of variations in everything from Liturgy (St. Tikhon, St. Gregory, Sarum, heck, I even heard of someone using St. Germanus), sign of the cross, incense, etc.

I would have thought the fact that the WRO is so recent would have led to greater uniformity, greater caution by Church authorities, and greater reluctance to allow individual priests or parishes to experiment in such a pick-and-chose fashion. I get that there is a basic difference between Antioch using the revised BCP and ROCOR reconstructions of pre-schism rites, but surely its desirable for parishes under a single diocese to use a single rite (and what is mentioned above isn't even a question of rite, but of incense and iconography). I sincerely hope that the bishop you mentioned will help to solve the problem.
I know my priest has shown some irritation because of 2 big issues. One is communication. Alot of folks are left in the dark about alot of things going on for the WRO, and changes that happen take a "X has been done, and that's that" approach. Secondly, is that the budget for the entire WR is less than just the office budget of the headquarters of the archdiocese. Thats just the office itself, not the entire headquarters....

PP
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Offline Basil 320

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Re: Top Reasons People Leave Orthodoxy
« Reply #60 on: October 23, 2012, 06:58:17 AM »
People West of Eastern Europe, including the Western Hemisphere, will find the Orthodox Church foreign and strange, and they will experience an emptiness, if they do not have an understanding of the history of the Eastern Orthodox Church and a basic understanding of the purpose and meaning of the Divine Services of the church.
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Offline LizaSymonenko

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Re: Top Reasons People Leave Orthodoxy
« Reply #61 on: October 23, 2012, 09:02:45 AM »

I would never have thought anyone could experience "emptiness" in the Orthodox Church.  It's so alive and vibrant - full of color, sound, motion....to the point of overstimulating the senses.

I would think they would suffer more from being overwhelmed by what they see, hear, smell and experience, rather than from a sense of emptiness.

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Offline LBK

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Re: Top Reasons People Leave Orthodoxy
« Reply #62 on: October 23, 2012, 09:30:15 AM »

I would never have thought anyone could experience "emptiness" in the Orthodox Church.  It's so alive and vibrant - full of color, sound, motion....to the point of overstimulating the senses.

I would think they would suffer more from being overwhelmed by what they see, hear, smell and experience, rather than from a sense of emptiness.


I'm with Liza on this. Countless times I've heard non-Orthodox visitors to my church say to me, or to others, that they were indeed blown away by all that they experienced. More than once, I've heard this: There were times I didn't know which century I was in.
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Offline katherineofdixie

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Re: Top Reasons People Leave Orthodoxy
« Reply #63 on: October 23, 2012, 09:35:08 AM »

I would never have thought anyone could experience "emptiness" in the Orthodox Church.  It's so alive and vibrant - full of color, sound, motion....to the point of overstimulating the senses.

I would think they would suffer more from being overwhelmed by what they see, hear, smell and experience, rather than from a sense of emptiness.


I'm with Liza on this. Countless times I've heard non-Orthodox visitors to my church say to me, or to others, that they were indeed blown away by all that they experienced. More than once, I've heard this: There were times I didn't know which century I was in.

Indeed. My husband and I tend to nudge each other when we see visitors with that stunned but nevertheless sort of happy look on their faces. You learn to spot it after awhile.
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Offline Knee V

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Re: Top Reasons People Leave Orthodoxy
« Reply #64 on: October 23, 2012, 02:03:19 PM »
While this won't apply to all who leave Orthodoxy - and it may only apply to a small handful - there are many who leave for the same reason that people leave other churches: spiritual apathy and allowing the soil of our hearts to become hazardous to the seed of the Word which was planted in them.

I just want to note that I appreciate your posts on this forum and sometimes (not often) I disagree with them.

Thank you for the kind word.

Offline choy

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Re: Top Reasons People Leave Orthodoxy
« Reply #65 on: October 23, 2012, 02:43:50 PM »

I would never have thought anyone could experience "emptiness" in the Orthodox Church.  It's so alive and vibrant - full of color, sound, motion....to the point of overstimulating the senses.

I would think they would suffer more from being overwhelmed by what they see, hear, smell and experience, rather than from a sense of emptiness.



The reality is some Orthodox churches aren't as vibrant of others.  I've never personally visited one but I've met people with stories about such places.  I don't know how prevalent they are, but I can see the issue as we are facing the same thing in the Eastern Catholic Church.