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Author Topic: What hinder Orthodox Church to preach gosepl to all nations?  (Read 7139 times) Average Rating: 0
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Green_Umbrella
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« Reply #90 on: October 22, 2012, 06:19:33 PM »

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The Church has failed in spreading Orthodoxy at least in Latin America.  Unless you consider less than a single percentage points in every Latin American country a success.
According to this logic, the catholic church is a failure too.

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And as far as your 100,000, 200,000, 600,000, 800,000 or whatever number you pull out of the sky for Mayans you are claiming have converted to Orthodoxy. I do not think so. At all. I think some people are confusing poor, uneducated and destitute indigenous people looking for a bag of rice as religious converts.

You ask for evidence concerning the growth of orthodoy and when I show you accountsfrom people who have actually witnessed a large number of people being accepted into the Church you dismiss it. Do you think that the people, the apostles converted were all rich and educated.

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According to this logic, the catholic church is a failure too.

I do not understand.

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You ask for evidence concerning the growth of orthodoy and when I show you accountsfrom people who have actually witnessed a large number of people being accepted into the Church you dismiss it.

I can show you accounts from people who claim they were abducted by aliens. They flew in their space ships and visited their planet. That does not make it true. The latest I saw was 7 Orthodox priest working in Guatamala. If your numbers are to be believed that is 1 priest for a every 100,000 converts more or less. Do you believe this? I do not.

As I told you before, if you want to find out take a plane to Guatamala and look for yourself. I think you will be very dissapointed.   Cry And before you go, just so you know what you are getting into...more people are beaten and stabbed to death in Guatemala every year than die in war zones.

When do you leave?



I should make this clear. I am being sarcastic. Do not go to Guatamala by yourself.
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« Reply #91 on: October 22, 2012, 06:24:50 PM »

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According to this logic, the catholic church is a failure too.

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I do not understand.


Look at reply nr. 59

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I can show you accounts from people who claim they were abducted by aliens. They flew in their space ships and visited their planet. That does not make it true.
I have a hard time seeing how these can be compared.

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The latest I saw was 7 Orthodox priest working in Guatamala. If your numbers are to be believed that is 1 priest for a every 100,000 converts more or less. Do you believe this? I do not.
Two things:
1. I didn't say 700.000

2. A small number of priest serving a huge number of people is not unheard of in areas where the Orthodox Church is still very young. Just look at Africa.

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As I told you before, if you want to find out take a plane to Guatamala and look for yourself. I think you will be very dissapointed.   And before you go, just so you know what you are getting into...more people are beaten and stabbed to death in Guatemala every year than die in war zones.

When do you leave?
Please don't give me that. Do you think you are the only person who have wtinessed poverty and cruelty? I am perfectly aware that Latin America can be gangerous place. However, the difference between you and me is, that I have my information from people who have actually been in Guatemala and have witnessed these parishes. Based on your own posts, you have barely witnessed any orthodox activity in Latin America.
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« Reply #92 on: October 22, 2012, 06:42:50 PM »

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According to this logic, the catholic church is a failure too.

Quote
I do not understand.


Look at reply nr. 59

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I can show you accounts from people who claim they were abducted by aliens. They flew in their space ships and visited their planet. That does not make it true.
I have a hard time seeing how these can be compared.

Quote
The latest I saw was 7 Orthodox priest working in Guatamala. If your numbers are to be believed that is 1 priest for a every 100,000 converts more or less. Do you believe this? I do not.
Two things:
1. I didn't say 700.000

2. A small number of priest serving a huge number of people is not unheard of in areas where the Orthodox Church is still very young. Just look at Africa.

Quote
As I told you before, if you want to find out take a plane to Guatamala and look for yourself. I think you will be very dissapointed.   And before you go, just so you know what you are getting into...more people are beaten and stabbed to death in Guatemala every year than die in war zones.

When do you leave?
Please don't give me that. Do you think you are the only person who have wtinessed poverty and cruelty? I am perfectly aware that Latin America can be gangerous place. However, the difference between you and me is, that I have my information from people who have actually been in Guatemala and have witnessed these parishes. Based on your own posts, you have barely witnessed any orthodox activity in Latin America.

You are right. I have barely witnessed any orthodox activity in Latin America. And neither has anyone else. Because there barely is any orthodox activity in Latin America...at all.
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choy
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« Reply #93 on: October 22, 2012, 06:46:48 PM »

You are right. I have barely witnessed any orthodox activity in Latin America. And neither has anyone else. Because there barely is any orthodox activity in Latin America...at all.

Maybe you are not looking the right place
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sheenj
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« Reply #94 on: October 22, 2012, 06:51:09 PM »



You are right. I have barely witnessed any orthodox activity in Latin America. And neither has anyone else. Because there barely is any orthodox activity in Latin America...at all.

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,28288.0.html

Are you sure?
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Father H
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« Reply #95 on: October 22, 2012, 07:04:23 PM »

I think I will take a stab at answering the subject question.  I think the answer is, our attachment to the recent past (say that past 150-200 years).   When you elevate a portion of history above the eternal as well as above the continuity of the faith delivered once for all throughout all generations (which is itself the participation of each generation in the same eternal good things given "from above"), then you have a problem.  We have this problem.  This problem is neither official for the Church nor is it universal, but it is "commonplace."   
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PeterTheAleut
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« Reply #96 on: October 23, 2012, 01:27:27 AM »

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According to this logic, the catholic church is a failure too.

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I do not understand.


Look at reply nr. 59

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I can show you accounts from people who claim they were abducted by aliens. They flew in their space ships and visited their planet. That does not make it true.
I have a hard time seeing how these can be compared.

Quote
The latest I saw was 7 Orthodox priest working in Guatamala. If your numbers are to be believed that is 1 priest for a every 100,000 converts more or less. Do you believe this? I do not.
Two things:
1. I didn't say 700.000

2. A small number of priest serving a huge number of people is not unheard of in areas where the Orthodox Church is still very young. Just look at Africa.

Quote
As I told you before, if you want to find out take a plane to Guatamala and look for yourself. I think you will be very dissapointed.   And before you go, just so you know what you are getting into...more people are beaten and stabbed to death in Guatemala every year than die in war zones.

When do you leave?
Please don't give me that. Do you think you are the only person who have wtinessed poverty and cruelty? I am perfectly aware that Latin America can be gangerous place. However, the difference between you and me is, that I have my information from people who have actually been in Guatemala and have witnessed these parishes. Based on your own posts, you have barely witnessed any orthodox activity in Latin America.

You are right. I have barely witnessed any orthodox activity in Latin America. And neither has anyone else. Because there barely is any orthodox activity in Latin America...at all.
And who licensed you to be our chief executioner?
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sprtslvr1973
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« Reply #97 on: October 30, 2012, 08:58:08 AM »

Why are there more Protestants than Orthodox Christians in Japan? That one really irks me.
Probably for the same reason American fashion and music are so much more common than Russian in Japan. Japan received a mass of Western cultural imports, so it shouldn't be a big surprise that American religion found a foothold too.
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« Reply #98 on: October 30, 2012, 09:16:43 AM »

Because the Church portrays itself as just a way to educate yourself in niceness, culture, morality and love, or worse an emotional consolation, with a far-fetched supernatural story to back that and a history of excessive rigorism and oppression to contradict that, all that with a request for unjustified self-denial and obedience to clearly crooked authorities.

In face of this obvious failure some get attached to the supernatural and excessive rigorist part, others actually believe our job is just "to spread the niceness" and try to get rid of any absolute truth or discipline.

This is all a pantonime.

The Universe is broke and so are we. This is not an opinion, a 'belief' or a faith. It is a fact. We should be up to prove it.

Jesus Christ did several miracles in His life and finally resurrected. This is not an opinion, a belief or a faith. It is a fact. We should be up to prove it.

He did it to fix both the Universe and us, and transform us into something more than what we are now. This is the promise, this is the faith.

Nobody needs the Church or an intricate  supernatural story to be or desire to be a good moral person. Our insistance as Christians that this is what "it is about" is as ridiculous as trying to say that you have to be Christian to see the sky is blue. It is ridiculous because it implies only Christians can be good and you don't even need to look at history to see this is not the case. A good look at your televangelist, guru-monk or crony bishop can tell you that. It's not about morality lads, it is about salvation of our very being, either you are a well-adjusted burgeois family person, an underground punk or a half-crazy old hag.  You choose to be moral, or intellectual (or both) because this is the right thing to do, whether you're Christian or not. Christians should acknowledge that as a basic fact of life, like gravity, not as the objective of the Church.

If we start treating facts as facts, then morality informed by these facts will improve.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2012, 09:25:13 AM by Fabio Leite » Logged

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« Reply #99 on: October 30, 2012, 11:07:22 AM »

Because the Church portrays itself as just a way to educate yourself in niceness, culture, morality and love, or worse an emotional consolation, with a far-fetched supernatural story to back that and a history of excessive rigorism and oppression to contradict that, all that with a request for unjustified self-denial and obedience to clearly crooked authorities.

In face of this obvious failure some get attached to the supernatural and excessive rigorist part, others actually believe our job is just "to spread the niceness" and try to get rid of any absolute truth or discipline.

This is all a pantonime.

The Universe is broke and so are we. This is not an opinion, a 'belief' or a faith. It is a fact. We should be up to prove it.

Jesus Christ did several miracles in His life and finally resurrected. This is not an opinion, a belief or a faith. It is a fact. We should be up to prove it.

He did it to fix both the Universe and us, and transform us into something more than what we are now. This is the promise, this is the faith.

Nobody needs the Church or an intricate  supernatural story to be or desire to be a good moral person. Our insistance as Christians that this is what "it is about" is as ridiculous as trying to say that you have to be Christian to see the sky is blue. It is ridiculous because it implies only Christians can be good and you don't even need to look at history to see this is not the case. A good look at your televangelist, guru-monk or crony bishop can tell you that. It's not about morality lads, it is about salvation of our very being, either you are a well-adjusted burgeois family person, an underground punk or a half-crazy old hag.  You choose to be moral, or intellectual (or both) because this is the right thing to do, whether you're Christian or not. Christians should acknowledge that as a basic fact of life, like gravity, not as the objective of the Church.

If we start treating facts as facts, then morality informed by these facts will improve.

I do not understand/comprehend this post Fabio. The way it is written leads me to disagree with you, but it is unclear enough that I am not really sure I disagree with you.

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the Church portrays itself as just a way to educate yourself in niceness, culture, morality and love, or worse an emotional consolation
What do you mean by this? Are you saying that the Church does not educate? I have to do it myself? Niceness, morality, love, emotional consolation is the proof that you ask for.

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a history of excessive rigorism and oppression to contradict that, all that with a request for unjustified self-denial and obedience to clearly crooked authorities
It just goes to show what havoc a few bad apples can cause. As you can probably guess, I am not clear what you are referring to here.

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others actually believe our job is just "to spread the niceness" and try to get rid of any absolute truth
Who are these others you are fighting against? If they are Christians, are you able to look into their most inner thoughts as to why they are spreading the niceness. This is another phrase that has confused me.

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Jesus Christ did several miracles in His life and finally resurrected. This is not an opinion, a belief or a faith. It is a fact. We should be up to prove it.
We do through belief and faith and selflessness.

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Nobody needs the Church or an intricate supernatural story to be or desire to be a good moral person.
Correct. The Church helps make us complete. The desire to be good and kind becomes central to our being and allows us to see God's love for us even as we suffer. I am actually unclear what you were driving at in the last paragraph. I have had no dealings with televangelists, guru-monks or crony bishops, so I cannot really comment.




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« Reply #100 on: October 30, 2012, 11:42:13 AM »

My point is: the reason Christianity was strong in the 1st millenium is because nobody really considered it a "belief" in the modern sense, it was a fact. You had faith in the promises of Christ because these had not been entirely fulfilled yet. But this faith, this trust was based on a known fact, not on a belief.

At some point in the turn to the second millennium, possibly due to the distance from the original facts, Christians stopped treating the facts of Christ’s life as such, and started treating them as something we believed that happened. Then, we had faith in things that were based on things we think that have happened. Do you want to know when “relativism” and “subjectivism” appeared? When Christians stopped treating the historical resurrection as a fact, but as a subjective belief.

And all the people who oppose this are very right. No mere belief or opinion should be privileged in informing law, society or behavior. Any certain knowledge, scientific or from mere common sense has priority over any belief.

Even faith, as defined by St. Paul, is not what Christians today call faith. He says faith is the “certainty of things unseen”. That from a hellenized Jew, who knew pretty well about philosophy and maths. Certainty of mathematics – the very basis of modern science – is certainty of something unseen: nobody has ever seen number 2 or the relations between the sides of triangles. This is faith. Applied to the things of God, Pauline faith is the experiential knowledge of God. It is difficult to share it through language, but it is not something the person “believes”, or “thinks”. It is something the person knows in experience.

When the Church accepted the label of being a community that shares a ‘belief” it was put where all such institutions should be: at the margin of society, duly scorned as any group who thinks that their opinion should be able to inform people’s behavior, laws and life. 
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« Reply #101 on: October 30, 2012, 11:51:51 AM »

So, when someone asks the question "What hinder the Orthodox Church to preach te Gospel to all nations?", my answer is:

the fact that preaching opinions and beliefs is an evil, a militant exercize in trying to dominate people's lives, whatever this opinion is. It takes half a second after hegemony for an opinion to start persecuting other different opinions.

Fatcs, on the other hand, do not impose themselves on people's lives and spread naturally. Lots of people had the opinion that the airplane or the lightbulb were impossible. No "pastoral outreach" or "missionary effort" was necessary for aerodynamics or electricity laws to be spread. *This* is what the Spirit of Truth is. We sing at Pascha "Christ is risen! Truly, He is risen!" and not "I believe Christ is Risen! Yes, I do think He is Risen!". "Truly" here means "We know this as a fact". It is the same reason Pontios Pilate is mentioned in the Symbol of Faith. We marked historical periods in the past by the kings who were governing at a certain time. When the Symbol says: "he was crucified for us under Pontius Pilate" what the Fathers are saying is: this is a historical *fact*. "Pistevo" *because* all this happened historically and not because "I believe" I assume this happened.

This inversion, that "Because I believe, I assume this and that supernatural fact happened" is the virus that weakens Christianity today. No. I know these things happened, that Jesus resurrected, that he made miracles. *Because* of that I have faith in His promises.
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« Reply #102 on: October 30, 2012, 04:14:10 PM »

I will never understand the simplistic and unrealistic way people attach human failure to failure in the Church.  It's as if they look for a reason to complain.

Human sin and selfishness hinders Church efforts.  Without the Church, the entire human race is screwed.  Any other conclusion is simply wrong.  Humans do not have the capacity to be what we should without what the Church provides; otherwise, Jesus would not have started the Church.  Without it, humans destroy.  With it, humans destroy much less.  Please stop church hating and understand any failure is at the hands of individual people.
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« Reply #103 on: October 31, 2012, 01:40:02 AM »

My point is: the reason Christianity was strong in the 1st millenium is because nobody really considered it a "belief" in the modern sense, it was a fact. You had faith in the promises of Christ because these had not been entirely fulfilled yet. But this faith, this trust was based on a known fact, not on a belief.

At some point in the turn to the second millennium, possibly due to the distance from the original facts, Christians stopped treating the facts of Christ’s life as such, and started treating them as something we believed that happened. Then, we had faith in things that were based on things we think that have happened. Do you want to know when “relativism” and “subjectivism” appeared? When Christians stopped treating the historical resurrection as a fact, but as a subjective belief.

And all the people who oppose this are very right. No mere belief or opinion should be privileged in informing law, society or behavior. Any certain knowledge, scientific or from mere common sense has priority over any belief.

Even faith, as defined by St. Paul, is not what Christians today call faith. He says faith is the “certainty of things unseen”. That from a hellenized Jew, who knew pretty well about philosophy and maths. Certainty of mathematics – the very basis of modern science – is certainty of something unseen: nobody has ever seen number 2 or the relations between the sides of triangles. This is faith. Applied to the things of God, Pauline faith is the experiential knowledge of God. It is difficult to share it through language, but it is not something the person “believes”, or “thinks”. It is something the person knows in experience.

When the Church accepted the label of being a community that shares a ‘belief” it was put where all such institutions should be: at the margin of society, duly scorned as any group who thinks that their opinion should be able to inform people’s behavior, laws and life. 


Thank you Fabio, I read you reply this morning at work. I do not have time to reply this evening since it is already past when I should be in bed. I recognize what you are saying, but I think it is more a difference in the changes in the degree of acceptance between now and the first millennium amongst "believers".

What I do not understand is your denigration of belief/believe/faith. These are certainties so I do not know what dictionary you are working from. There are differences in the implied mindset of the person using the term "I know" vs "I believe".   I support the latter term and I consider the former hubris.

I also do not know, nor do I know why I should know, what relativism and subjectivism is.

I will try to write tomorrow but I have a talk to prepare so I cannot guarantee I will.

Take care Fabio.
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« Reply #104 on: December 05, 2012, 09:10:53 PM »

I did not get a chance to read the whole thread but I wanted to chime in.

I am an america, grew up in the northwest and now live in the southern California area. I am not eastern, Greek or Russian. I am american.

Down here I tend a beautiful Orthodox church of Jerusalem. The members there are mostly Arabic. Most of the liturgy is Arabic. So why do I tend to a church that is so foreign. Cause I love the faith. The faith is what matters. As an orthodox christian I believe Christ founded one church 1973 years and we are that church. I do not care if a great majority of the DL is in Arabic, I know the words in english and can follow along. What is impotent to me is that I am worshiping God the way he wanted to be worshiped and loved. This church is not about me, an ethnic background or anything else. It is about Loving god and having a meaningful relationship with Christ. I love my Church, I love the Orthodox faith, and it is that love/passion for it that lights me up and helps me teach others about it. We have the true church and we should share it. We should live faith and be the shining city on the hill. It is that example of our living faith and desire to be edified before God that will draw people to our churches no matter if it spoken in greek, slavic or english.
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« Reply #105 on: December 15, 2012, 07:11:55 AM »

There's nothing wrong with having 'ethnic' churches. The church in the New Testament consisted of the churches of Ephesus, Thessalonica, Jerusalem, and so forth, all in inter-communion, and yet not all sharing the same cultural heritage or even language. The problem comes where members of any particular church allow nationalism or even racism to creep in and obscure the all-inclusive love of Christ. This does happen in Orthodoxy occasionally, but it should also to noted that the Church has always had problems, in every age, that it has had to deal with. That's why Paul wrote many of his epistle: to deal with problems that had crept in. The church is the same today, which is why I haven't been discouraged from Orthodoxy by such complaints against it. I know that ethnocentrism does not reflect Orthodoxy, even if it is one of the difficulties the church struggles with in certain regions. At any rate members of the Antiochian parish I have attended have not exhibited even the slightest bigotry. They've been very friendly towards my wife and I.      
« Last Edit: December 15, 2012, 07:14:27 AM by Armchair Theologian » Logged
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