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Author Topic: Orthodox Church is only true Church founded by Jesus and His disciple in A.D 33?  (Read 6046 times) Average Rating: 0
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walter1234
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« on: October 19, 2012, 05:58:16 AM »

Why do Orthodox Christian say that Orthodox Church is founded by Jesus and his disciple, not Catholic Church?

Why do Orthodox Chrisitna say taht Orthodox Church is founded in A.D 33, not  in 10 th century?

Can anybody briefly tell me the history of Orthodox Church?
« Last Edit: October 19, 2012, 06:08:02 AM by walter1234 » Logged
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« Reply #1 on: October 19, 2012, 06:02:59 AM »

Is there any evidence showing that Orthodox Church is the only Church founded by Jesus and His disciple in A.D 33?
« Last Edit: October 19, 2012, 06:08:33 AM by walter1234 » Logged
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« Reply #2 on: October 19, 2012, 06:10:58 AM »

Is there any evidence showing that Orthodox Church is the only Church founded by Jesus and His disciple in A.D 33?

History. 5 Patriarchs were there, one left the Church.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2012, 06:11:26 AM by Cyrillic » Logged

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« Reply #3 on: October 19, 2012, 06:20:58 AM »

Why do Orthodox Christian say that Orthodox Church is founded by Jesus and his disciple, not Catholic Church?
We don't say that the Roman Catholic Church was not founded by Christ - we were one church up until the Great Schism when Rome left us. We believe that in going into Schism the Patriarchate of Rome left the Church and so the other Patriarchates of the Catholic Church (which comprise the Orthodox Church) is the Church founded by Christ whereas the Roman Catholic Church has become something other.

Quote
Why do Orthodox Chrisitna say taht Orthodox Church is founded in A.D 33, not  in 10 th century?
Because it was. What would make you think it was founded in the 10th century? We still contain all the original Patriarchates of the Church excepting Rome - that's Antioch, Alexandria, Jerusalem and Constantinople.

Quote
Can anybody briefly tell me the history of Orthodox Church?

Very briefly indeed - the Church was founded by the Apostles. Various centres of the Church became important and were made into Patriarchates. These were responsible for larger geographic areas - so Rome the west, Alexandria Africa etc. The Pope of Rome was considered first in rank of the Patriarchs but he had no jurisdiction over the other Patriarchates. As time wore the Pope of Rome started to claim more and more power and privileges over the Church. This was resisted by the remaining Patriarchates and Rome also introduced other beliefs and practices that were foreign to ,and in the case of the filioque considered heretical by, the other Patriarchates. Eventually this lead to a split (conventionally dated to 1054, but it was more of a slow process than that would suggest) which has never been healed. Rome went it alone and became the Roman Catholic Church while the other four members of the Pentarchy stayed in communion - this is the Orthodox Church.

Note that this ridiculously brief potted history is from an Eastern Orthodox perspective. The Oriental Orthodox would talk about a split after the Council of Chalcedon rather than the Great Schism.

James
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« Reply #4 on: October 19, 2012, 06:46:44 AM »

Is there any evidence showing that Orthodox Church is the only Church founded by Jesus and His disciple in A.D 33?

History. 5 Patriarchs were there, one left the Church.

History. 5 Patriarchs were there, four left the Church?
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« Reply #5 on: October 19, 2012, 06:47:31 AM »

Is there any evidence showing that Orthodox Church is the only Church founded by Jesus and His disciple in A.D 33?

History. 5 Patriarchs were there, one left the Church.

History. 5 Patriarchs were there, four left the Church?

The vote was 4 to 1.
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« Reply #6 on: October 19, 2012, 06:55:30 AM »

Is there any evidence showing that Orthodox Church is the only Church founded by Jesus and His disciple in A.D 33?

History. 5 Patriarchs were there, one left the Church.

History. 5 Patriarchs were there, four left the Church?

Such an analysis is only possible by a priori acceptance of the Roman claims to universal jurisdiction. As, however, such claims were never acknowledged in the east and the history of the church shows that it was conciliar, 4 in 1 out is easily the more reasonable interpretation.

James
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« Reply #7 on: October 19, 2012, 07:24:15 AM »

Why do Orthodox Christian say that Orthodox Church is founded by Jesus and his disciple, not Catholic Church?
 

Because it was founded by Christ with the Apostles.  The Catholic Church didn’t exist until around 1054.  

Why do Orthodox Christians say that Orthodox Church is founded in A.D 33, not  in 10th century?
 
10th Century?  You are thinking of the Catholic Church splitting off during the Great Schism and becoming its own entity outside communion with the Orthodox Church.

Can anybody briefly tell me the history of Orthodox Church?

Jesus came, taught the Apostles who taught their disciples, etc.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2012, 07:27:55 AM by Kerdy » Logged
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« Reply #8 on: October 19, 2012, 07:34:34 AM »

Why do Orthodox Christian say that Orthodox Church is founded by Jesus and his disciple, not Catholic Church?

Why do Orthodox Chrisitna say taht Orthodox Church is founded in A.D 33, not  in 10 th century?

Can anybody briefly tell me the history of Orthodox Church?

the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church were founded by Jesus and the disciples in 33 A.D according to these churches.these jurisdictions were places in which the apostles spread the gospel and were both part of the same organization.. Most of the Christian doctrine was formulated in Orthodox ground, i.e the Eastern and Oriental jurisdictions.. There were Ecumenical Councils in which the Patriarch(bishop) of Rome was not even present.. The theological formulations and languages and original language of most of the (united) church's literature is in greek.Take for example the formulation of the Niceo-Constantinopolitan councils that says that there is "one ousia in three hypostases" . One of the things that influenced the separation of these two jurisdictions was the fall of the Western Roman Empire and the elevation of Constantinople..

Why didn`t the Orthodox Church start in 1054 ? Because she is the one who sticks with the Ecumenical councils.The niceo-constantinopolitan creed says that the Spirit proceeds from the Son, not "from the Father and the Son" .. It is that why even the patriarch of Rome ,  Pope Leo III in 810 opposed adding the Filioque to the Creed, and had two heavy silver shields made and displayed in St Peter's, containing the original text of the Creed of 381 in both Greek and Latin, adding: "I, Leo, have placed these for love and protection of the orthodox faith" . There are roman popes who are venerated as saints in the Orthodox Church, like Pope Gregory , Leo and others..
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« Reply #9 on: October 19, 2012, 07:45:56 AM »

Is there any evidence showing that Orthodox Church is the only Church founded by Jesus and His disciple in A.D 33?

History. 5 Patriarchs were there, one left the Church.

History. 5 Patriarchs were there, four left the Church?

The vote was 4 to 1.


Who are these 5 Patriarchs? Why are they so important??

Why can these four Patriachs help to prove Orthodox Church is the only true Church
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« Reply #10 on: October 19, 2012, 08:03:30 AM »

Is there any evidence showing that Orthodox Church is the only Church founded by Jesus and His disciple in A.D 33?

History. 5 Patriarchs were there, one left the Church.

History. 5 Patriarchs were there, four left the Church?



The vote was 4 to 1.


Who are these 5 Patriarchs? Why are they so important??

Why can these four Patriachs help to prove Orthodox Church is the only true Church

Both Rome and Constantinople can show Apostolic succession.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2012, 08:04:16 AM by Green_Umbrella » Logged
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« Reply #11 on: October 19, 2012, 08:17:09 AM »

Is there any evidence showing that Orthodox Church is the only Church founded by Jesus and His disciple in A.D 33?

History. 5 Patriarchs were there, one left the Church.

History. 5 Patriarchs were there, four left the Church?

The vote was 4 to 1.

Well let us look here.

Jesus said Matthew 16:18 ¨And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.¨

I think the tradition is Peter went to Rome. Also let us say the obvious. History has been very harsh to the Orthodox Church. The Muslims took over all the lands of those 4 Patriarchs. The Hagia Sofia was turned into a mosque and then museum. The traditional Orthodox Christians in these muslim lands are dwindling to nothing. There was communism and all their attacks on the church.

Does that sound like the ¨Rock¨? It does not to me. Sounds like the curse really.

And it was the Roman Catholic Church and later with the Protestant churches that spread Christianity around the world. Orthodox Christianity is very centrally located in Eastern Europe mostly.   
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« Reply #12 on: October 19, 2012, 08:27:21 AM »

Is there any evidence showing that Orthodox Church is the only Church founded by Jesus and His disciple in A.D 33?

History. 5 Patriarchs were there, one left the Church.

History. 5 Patriarchs were there, four left the Church?

The vote was 4 to 1.

Well let us look here.

Jesus said Matthew 16:18 ¨And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.¨

I think the tradition is Peter went to Rome. Also let us say the obvious. History has been very harsh to the Orthodox Church. The Muslims took over all the lands of those 4 Patriarchs. The Hagia Sofia was turned into a mosque and then museum. The traditional Orthodox Christians in these muslim lands are dwindling to nothing. There was communism and all their attacks on the church.

Does that sound like the ¨Rock¨? It does not to me. Sounds like the curse really.

And it was the Roman Catholic Church and later with the Protestant churches that spread Christianity around the world. Orthodox Christianity is very centrally located in Eastern Europe mostly.   

This post is disgusting.
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« Reply #13 on: October 19, 2012, 08:28:56 AM »

Is there any evidence showing that Orthodox Church is the only Church founded by Jesus and His disciple in A.D 33?

History. 5 Patriarchs were there, one left the Church.

History. 5 Patriarchs were there, four left the Church?

The vote was 4 to 1.

Well let us look here.

Jesus said Matthew 16:18 ¨And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.¨

I think the tradition is Peter went to Rome. Also let us say the obvious. History has been very harsh to the Orthodox Church. The Muslims took over all the lands of those 4 Patriarchs. The Hagia Sofia was turned into a mosque and then museum. The traditional Orthodox Christians in these muslim lands are dwindling to nothing. There was communism and all their attacks on the church.

Does that sound like the ¨Rock¨? It does not to me. Sounds like the curse really.

And it was the Roman Catholic Church and later with the Protestant churches that spread Christianity around the world. Orthodox Christianity is very centrally located in Eastern Europe mostly.   

This post is disgusting.

That may be but it is TRUE is it not?
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« Reply #14 on: October 19, 2012, 08:29:49 AM »

Is there any evidence showing that Orthodox Church is the only Church founded by Jesus and His disciple in A.D 33?

History. 5 Patriarchs were there, one left the Church.

History. 5 Patriarchs were there, four left the Church?

The vote was 4 to 1.

Well let us look here.

Jesus said Matthew 16:18 ¨And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.¨

I think the tradition is Peter went to Rome. Also let us say the obvious. History has been very harsh to the Orthodox Church. The Muslims took over all the lands of those 4 Patriarchs. The Hagia Sofia was turned into a mosque and then museum. The traditional Orthodox Christians in these muslim lands are dwindling to nothing. There was communism and all their attacks on the church.

Does that sound like the ¨Rock¨? It does not to me. Sounds like the curse really.

And it was the Roman Catholic Church and later with the Protestant churches that spread Christianity around the world. Orthodox Christianity is very centrally located in Eastern Europe mostly.   

We don't necessarily read the Rock as St. Peter, but even when it is read in that fashion there's nothing to suggest that the Pope of Rome is his successor (a successor, not the successor). St. Peter founded Antioch he did not found Rome (contrary to Roman claims), though he was involved in it later. He was certainly never Pope of Rome. Antioch remains Orthodox, so really your St. Peter went to Rome comments seem pretty weak. Not, it has to be said, as weak as your argument from numbers, though. The truth is not determined by popularity nor geography (though I would note that you seem to miss that Orthodoxy spread right across northern Asia to America with the Russians). If instead you were to look at who has adhered to the faith delivered to the Apostles and who has altered it, you'll see that the Rock of faith upon which the Church was built has indeed weathered Islam and communism. Rome, in contrast has added innovation upon innovation  despite being free and Protestantism has gone way beyond even that, shattering into a myriad of sects. I know where I see the Rock in all that, and it certainly isn't the west.

James
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« Reply #15 on: October 19, 2012, 08:32:13 AM »

Is there any evidence showing that Orthodox Church is the only Church founded by Jesus and His disciple in A.D 33?

History. 5 Patriarchs were there, one left the Church.

History. 5 Patriarchs were there, four left the Church?

The vote was 4 to 1.

Well let us look here.

Jesus said Matthew 16:18 ¨And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.¨

I think the tradition is Peter went to Rome. Also let us say the obvious. History has been very harsh to the Orthodox Church. The Muslims took over all the lands of those 4 Patriarchs. The Hagia Sofia was turned into a mosque and then museum. The traditional Orthodox Christians in these muslim lands are dwindling to nothing. There was communism and all their attacks on the church.

Does that sound like the ¨Rock¨? It does not to me. Sounds like the curse really.

And it was the Roman Catholic Church and later with the Protestant churches that spread Christianity around the world. Orthodox Christianity is very centrally located in Eastern Europe mostly.   

This post is disgusting.

That may be but it is TRUE is it not?

So the church with the most adherents/money is the True Church?
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« Reply #16 on: October 19, 2012, 08:39:32 AM »

Is there any evidence showing that Orthodox Church is the only Church founded by Jesus and His disciple in A.D 33?

History. 5 Patriarchs were there, one left the Church.

History. 5 Patriarchs were there, four left the Church?

The vote was 4 to 1.

Well let us look here.

Jesus said Matthew 16:18 ¨And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.¨

I think the tradition is Peter went to Rome. Also let us say the obvious. History has been very harsh to the Orthodox Church. The Muslims took over all the lands of those 4 Patriarchs. The Hagia Sofia was turned into a mosque and then museum. The traditional Orthodox Christians in these muslim lands are dwindling to nothing. There was communism and all their attacks on the church.

Does that sound like the ¨Rock¨? It does not to me. Sounds like the curse really.

And it was the Roman Catholic Church and later with the Protestant churches that spread Christianity around the world. Orthodox Christianity is very centrally located in Eastern Europe mostly.   

We don't necessarily read the Rock as St. Peter, but even when it is read in that fashion there's nothing to suggest that the Pope of Rome is his successor (a successor, not the successor). St. Peter founded Antioch he did not found Rome (contrary to Roman claims), though he was involved in it later. He was certainly never Pope of Rome. Antioch remains Orthodox, so really your St. Peter went to Rome comments seem pretty weak. Not, it has to be said, as weak as your argument from numbers, though. The truth is not determined by popularity nor geography (though I would note that you seem to miss that Orthodoxy spread right across northern Asia to America with the Russians). If instead you were to look at who has adhered to the faith delivered to the Apostles and who has altered it, you'll see that the Rock of faith upon which the Church was built has indeed weathered Islam and communism. Rome, in contrast has added innovation upon innovation  despite being free and Protestantism has gone way beyond even that, shattering into a myriad of sects. I know where I see the Rock in all that, and it certainly isn't the west.

James

The mission of the Apostles and the church was/is to spread the word of God and the good news I think. So geography and numbers are important. So, who has/is accomplishing their mission and who has/is not?
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« Reply #17 on: October 19, 2012, 08:41:26 AM »

Is there any evidence showing that Orthodox Church is the only Church founded by Jesus and His disciple in A.D 33?

History. 5 Patriarchs were there, one left the Church.

History. 5 Patriarchs were there, four left the Church?

The vote was 4 to 1.

Well let us look here.

Jesus said Matthew 16:18 ¨And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.¨

I think the tradition is Peter went to Rome. Also let us say the obvious. History has been very harsh to the Orthodox Church. The Muslims took over all the lands of those 4 Patriarchs. The Hagia Sofia was turned into a mosque and then museum. The traditional Orthodox Christians in these muslim lands are dwindling to nothing. There was communism and all their attacks on the church.

Does that sound like the ¨Rock¨? It does not to me. Sounds like the curse really.

And it was the Roman Catholic Church and later with the Protestant churches that spread Christianity around the world. Orthodox Christianity is very centrally located in Eastern Europe mostly.   

The rock is the faith of st. Peter, not he as a person. There is only one Head of the Church and it's Jesus Christ. The Church can't relay on the one person (RC pope).

Personally I think, that Islam it's a work of satan to the destroy the ancient Church - Orthodox Church. But it's failed because all the patriarchates still exist and some Orthodox Christians live in e.g. Arabic countries, Balkans are almost completely Orthodox etc. What's more, now these ancient patriarchates, mainly Constantinople, Alexandria and Antioch, spread the Orthodoxy in South Africa, Latin America. It's in interesting to note that always when Orthodoxy were persecuted, some of Orthodox people have been leaving their homeland and spread the faith in the territories that had not existed the Orthodox Church at all. This is the case of today's missions in Latin America and South Africa (Antioch, Alexandria), earlier it was the case of the North America and Western Europe (Russians), it was the case in Poland with western territories (Orthodox people were moved to the new Polish territories by force, many of them were killed, but thanks to these actions of communists there are Orthodox parishes in Western Poland). And furthermore, these Orthodox Christians who have maintained their faith although Muslims occupations, are much more pious and believers than Christians in e.g. Western Europe. And although so many unfavorable circumstances (Islam, destroying of the mission of st. Cyrill and Methody in Moravia and Poland, destroying of Orthodoxy in Hungaria, comunism, attempts to create a union with Catholic Church etc.), the Orthodox Church has maintained the faith of the Apostles without changes, has very similar Liturgy, fasting and prayer rules through the ages.
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« Reply #18 on: October 19, 2012, 08:47:50 AM »

Is there any evidence showing that Orthodox Church is the only Church founded by Jesus and His disciple in A.D 33?

History. 5 Patriarchs were there, one left the Church.

History. 5 Patriarchs were there, four left the Church?

The vote was 4 to 1.

Well let us look here.

Jesus said Matthew 16:18 ¨And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.¨

I think the tradition is Peter went to Rome. Also let us say the obvious. History has been very harsh to the Orthodox Church. The Muslims took over all the lands of those 4 Patriarchs. The Hagia Sofia was turned into a mosque and then museum. The traditional Orthodox Christians in these muslim lands are dwindling to nothing. There was communism and all their attacks on the church.

Does that sound like the ¨Rock¨? It does not to me. Sounds like the curse really.

And it was the Roman Catholic Church and later with the Protestant churches that spread Christianity around the world. Orthodox Christianity is very centrally located in Eastern Europe mostly.   

We don't necessarily read the Rock as St. Peter, but even when it is read in that fashion there's nothing to suggest that the Pope of Rome is his successor (a successor, not the successor). St. Peter founded Antioch he did not found Rome (contrary to Roman claims), though he was involved in it later. He was certainly never Pope of Rome. Antioch remains Orthodox, so really your St. Peter went to Rome comments seem pretty weak. Not, it has to be said, as weak as your argument from numbers, though. The truth is not determined by popularity nor geography (though I would note that you seem to miss that Orthodoxy spread right across northern Asia to America with the Russians). If instead you were to look at who has adhered to the faith delivered to the Apostles and who has altered it, you'll see that the Rock of faith upon which the Church was built has indeed weathered Islam and communism. Rome, in contrast has added innovation upon innovation  despite being free and Protestantism has gone way beyond even that, shattering into a myriad of sects. I know where I see the Rock in all that, and it certainly isn't the west.

James

The mission of the Apostles and the church was/is to spread the word of God and the good news I think. So geography and numbers are important. So, who has/is accomplishing their mission and who has/is not?

At one point in time the Assyrian Church of the East had the most adherents. Should we all become nestorian now?
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« Reply #19 on: October 19, 2012, 08:53:12 AM »



So geography and numbers are important. So, who has/is accomplishing their mission and who has/is not?
I guess that puts Islam in the running.

More seriously, one of the things I find appealing about Orthodoxy is that it is the faith of Christians who have been true to Christ and the Apostolic teachings in the face of great persecution and difficulty. That those difficulties have limited their ability to carry their faith to farther regions is a minor concern.

On the other hand, much of the spread of Roman Catholicism in particular is due to military conquest and zeal for imperial and economic expansion rather than a simple sharing of the faith. In saying that, I in no way disrespect the men and women in past and present centuries who have shared their faith honourably. Fine examples of missionary work are easy to cite.
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« Reply #20 on: October 19, 2012, 08:57:28 AM »

Is there any evidence showing that Orthodox Church is the only Church founded by Jesus and His disciple in A.D 33?

History. 5 Patriarchs were there, one left the Church.

History. 5 Patriarchs were there, four left the Church?

The vote was 4 to 1.

Well let us look here.

Jesus said Matthew 16:18 ¨And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.¨

I think the tradition is Peter went to Rome. Also let us say the obvious. History has been very harsh to the Orthodox Church. The Muslims took over all the lands of those 4 Patriarchs. The Hagia Sofia was turned into a mosque and then museum. The traditional Orthodox Christians in these muslim lands are dwindling to nothing. There was communism and all their attacks on the church.

Does that sound like the ¨Rock¨? It does not to me. Sounds like the curse really.

And it was the Roman Catholic Church and later with the Protestant churches that spread Christianity around the world. Orthodox Christianity is very centrally located in Eastern Europe mostly.   

The rock is the faith of st. Peter, not he as a person. There is only one Head of the Church and it's Jesus Christ. The Church can't relay on the one person (RC pope).

Personally I think, that Islam it's a work of satan to the destroy the ancient Church - Orthodox Church. But it's failed because all the patriarchates still exist and some Orthodox Christians live in e.g. Arabic countries, Balkans are almost completely Orthodox etc. What's more, now these ancient patriarchates, mainly Constantinople, Alexandria and Antioch, spread the Orthodoxy in South Africa, Latin America. It's in interesting to note that always when Orthodoxy were persecuted, some of Orthodox people have been leaving their homeland and spread the faith in the territories that had not existed the Orthodox Church at all. This is the case of today's missions in Latin America and South Africa (Antioch, Alexandria), earlier it was the case of the North America and Western Europe (Russians), it was the case in Poland with western territories (Orthodox people were moved to the new Polish territories by force, many of them were killed, but thanks to these actions of communists there are Orthodox parishes in Western Poland). And furthermore, these Orthodox Christians who have maintained their faith although Muslims occupations, are much more pious and believers than Christians in e.g. Western Europe. And although so many unfavorable circumstances (Islam, destroying of the mission of st. Cyrill and Methody in Moravia and Poland, destroying of Orthodoxy in Hungaria, comunism, attempts to create a union with Catholic Church etc.), the Orthodox Church has maintained the faith of the Apostles without changes, has very similar Liturgy, fasting and prayer rules through the ages.

I do not understand why you see a union of Eastern and Western Church as a negative thing automatic. If Peter is the person or the faith is a matter of interpretation. It can be taken either way. And the Orthodox church has changed on issues from what I read.

¨...the vast majority modern Eastern Orthodox bishops directly teach that contraception is acceptable in marriage, when until 1930, ALL Christians (even Protestant Christians) taught that ALL forms of contraception were morally sinful; and the ancient fathers of the Church are VERY clear about this.   And, in this case (and there are many others) it is only the Catholic Church that has remained faithful to Apostolic teaching.   The Orthodox have yielded to the voice of the secular world and changed.¨

That is a quote from another website. Is this not correct?
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« Reply #21 on: October 19, 2012, 08:57:51 AM »

this should answer most of your questions

The Ancient Church (1of3) - True Christianity is the Eastern Orthodox Faith
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TJueCXNUahw
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« Reply #22 on: October 19, 2012, 09:01:29 AM »

Green_umbrella's posts are always so full of rehashed latin propaganda.
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« Reply #23 on: October 19, 2012, 09:05:50 AM »

Green_umbrella's posts are always so full of rehashed latin propaganda.

Just asking questions.

Besides let us not be harsh to fellow Trinitarian believing Christians. No need to jump to a strong adversarial pose when the RCC is mentioned.
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« Reply #24 on: October 19, 2012, 09:10:36 AM »


¨...the vast majority modern Eastern Orthodox bishops directly teach that contraception is acceptable in marriage, when until 1930, ALL Christians (even Protestant Christians) taught that ALL forms of contraception were morally sinful; and the ancient fathers of the Church are VERY clear about this.   And, in this case (and there are many others) it is only the Catholic Church that has remained faithful to Apostolic teaching (LOL).  The Orthodox have yielded to the voice of the secular world and changed


This unsourced, unproven piece of *bleep* isn't taking a strong adversial position? Compared to this my posts are cute love poems.
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« Reply #25 on: October 19, 2012, 09:11:31 AM »

Is there any evidence showing that Orthodox Church is the only Church founded by Jesus and His disciple in A.D 33?

History. 5 Patriarchs were there, one left the Church.

History. 5 Patriarchs were there, four left the Church?

The vote was 4 to 1.

Well let us look here.

Jesus said Matthew 16:18 ¨And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.¨

I think the tradition is Peter went to Rome. Also let us say the obvious. History has been very harsh to the Orthodox Church. The Muslims took over all the lands of those 4 Patriarchs. The Hagia Sofia was turned into a mosque and then museum. The traditional Orthodox Christians in these muslim lands are dwindling to nothing. There was communism and all their attacks on the church.

Does that sound like the ¨Rock¨? It does not to me. Sounds like the curse really.

And it was the Roman Catholic Church and later with the Protestant churches that spread Christianity around the world. Orthodox Christianity is very centrally located in Eastern Europe mostly.   

We don't necessarily read the Rock as St. Peter, but even when it is read in that fashion there's nothing to suggest that the Pope of Rome is his successor (a successor, not the successor). St. Peter founded Antioch he did not found Rome (contrary to Roman claims), though he was involved in it later. He was certainly never Pope of Rome. Antioch remains Orthodox, so really your St. Peter went to Rome comments seem pretty weak. Not, it has to be said, as weak as your argument from numbers, though. The truth is not determined by popularity nor geography (though I would note that you seem to miss that Orthodoxy spread right across northern Asia to America with the Russians). If instead you were to look at who has adhered to the faith delivered to the Apostles and who has altered it, you'll see that the Rock of faith upon which the Church was built has indeed weathered Islam and communism. Rome, in contrast has added innovation upon innovation  despite being free and Protestantism has gone way beyond even that, shattering into a myriad of sects. I know where I see the Rock in all that, and it certainly isn't the west.

James

The mission of the Apostles and the church was/is to spread the word of God and the good news I think. So geography and numbers are important. So, who has/is accomplishing their mission and who has/is not?

You forget the Orthodox Church did just as much missionary work as the Roman Catholic Church until war and economy prevented the Orthodox Church from doing its work and provided much wealth and secular power for the Roman Catholic Church.  Orthodox numbers are surpassed only by the Roman Catholic Church, and for the same reasons as mentioned in my previous sentence.
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« Reply #26 on: October 19, 2012, 09:11:44 AM »

Green_umbrella's posts are always so full of rehashed latin propaganda.

Just asking questions.

Besides let us not be harsh to fellow Trinitarian believing Christians. No need to jump to a strong adversarial pose when the RCC is mentioned.

You weren't asking questions. You were making arguments for the RCC being the True Church in contrast to the Orthodox Church. If that's what you believe fine (and we'll agree to disagree) but please try to be honest as to what you were saying.

James
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« Reply #27 on: October 19, 2012, 09:15:28 AM »

Is there any evidence showing that Orthodox Church is the only Church founded by Jesus and His disciple in A.D 33?

History. 5 Patriarchs were there, one left the Church.

History. 5 Patriarchs were there, four left the Church?

The vote was 4 to 1.

Well let us look here.

Jesus said Matthew 16:18 ¨And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.¨

I think the tradition is Peter went to Rome. Also let us say the obvious. History has been very harsh to the Orthodox Church. The Muslims took over all the lands of those 4 Patriarchs. The Hagia Sofia was turned into a mosque and then museum. The traditional Orthodox Christians in these muslim lands are dwindling to nothing. There was communism and all their attacks on the church.

Does that sound like the ¨Rock¨? It does not to me. Sounds like the curse really.

And it was the Roman Catholic Church and later with the Protestant churches that spread Christianity around the world. Orthodox Christianity is very centrally located in Eastern Europe mostly.  

The rock is the faith of st. Peter, not he as a person. There is only one Head of the Church and it's Jesus Christ. The Church can't relay on the one person (RC pope).

Personally I think, that Islam it's a work of satan to the destroy the ancient Church - Orthodox Church. But it's failed because all the patriarchates still exist and some Orthodox Christians live in e.g. Arabic countries, Balkans are almost completely Orthodox etc. What's more, now these ancient patriarchates, mainly Constantinople, Alexandria and Antioch, spread the Orthodoxy in South Africa, Latin America. It's in interesting to note that always when Orthodoxy were persecuted, some of Orthodox people have been leaving their homeland and spread the faith in the territories that had not existed the Orthodox Church at all. This is the case of today's missions in Latin America and South Africa (Antioch, Alexandria), earlier it was the case of the North America and Western Europe (Russians), it was the case in Poland with western territories (Orthodox people were moved to the new Polish territories by force, many of them were killed, but thanks to these actions of communists there are Orthodox parishes in Western Poland). And furthermore, these Orthodox Christians who have maintained their faith although Muslims occupations, are much more pious and believers than Christians in e.g. Western Europe. And although so many unfavorable circumstances (Islam, destroying of the mission of st. Cyrill and Methody in Moravia and Poland, destroying of Orthodoxy in Hungaria, comunism, attempts to create a union with Catholic Church etc.), the Orthodox Church has maintained the faith of the Apostles without changes, has very similar Liturgy, fasting and prayer rules through the ages.

I do not understand why you see a union of Eastern and Western Church as a negative thing automatic. If Peter is the person or the faith is a matter of interpretation. It can be taken either way. And the Orthodox church has changed on issues from what I read.

¨...the vast majority modern Eastern Orthodox bishops directly teach that contraception is acceptable in marriage, when until 1930, ALL Christians (even Protestant Christians) taught that ALL forms of contraception were morally sinful; and the ancient fathers of the Church are VERY clear about this.   And, in this case (and there are many others) it is only the Catholic Church that has remained faithful to Apostolic teaching.   The Orthodox have yielded to the voice of the secular world and changed.¨

That is a quote from another website. Is this not correct?

If you would like, we can take the assertion and examine various teachings of the Roman Catholic Church to see if this statement rings true.  Of course, in a different thread.
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« Reply #28 on: October 19, 2012, 09:17:15 AM »


¨...the vast majority modern Eastern Orthodox bishops directly teach that contraception is acceptable in marriage, when until 1930, ALL Christians (even Protestant Christians) taught that ALL forms of contraception were morally sinful; and the ancient fathers of the Church are VERY clear about this.   And, in this case (and there are many others) it is only the Catholic Church that has remained faithful to Apostolic teaching (LOL).  The Orthodox have yielded to the voice of the secular world and changed


This unsourced, unproven piece of *bleep* isn't taking a strong adversial position? Compared to this my posts are cute love poems.

Indeed. I'd be interested to see if he can find these very clear patristic quotes. Everything I've ever seen that's been presented as a condemnation of contraception has on closer inspection seemed, pretty clearly, rather to condemn abortion. But maybe that should be in a separate thread. Even if it were true (and I don't believe it is) that the Orthodox Church's view of the practice of contraception has changed, it's hardly equivalent to the formulation of novel dogmas or the alteration of the Creed.

James
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« Reply #29 on: October 19, 2012, 09:17:58 AM »

Is there any evidence showing that Orthodox Church is the only Church founded by Jesus and His disciple in A.D 33?

History. 5 Patriarchs were there, one left the Church.

History. 5 Patriarchs were there, four left the Church?

The vote was 4 to 1.

The business is a lot messier than that. Antioch remained in communion with Rome until the crusades and the establishment of a Latin bishop in each of these sees. Not to mention that the patriarchs of Alexandria and Antioch were appointed imperial Greeks from Constantinople, while the local Christian communities in these cities were mostly either Non-Chalcedonian (Jacobites, Copts & Ethiopians, etc.) or Nestorian. The Chalcedonian patriarchs in these cities did not authentically represent the majority of the native Christian communities.

Furthermore, the development of the "Pentarchy" wasn't until the time of Emperor Justinian's time. Constantinople's elevated status to second behind Rome was pragmatic, but not according to the ancient order. Constantinople was originally tied to a different line of bishops, and at some point later on the concept of an "Apostolic See" like Rome became important in its authority claims, and hence the legend of St. Andrew was born. This was not a part of Constantinople's early self-understanding.

So at the time of the Great Schism, instead of this 4 to 1 scenario that many here would have you believe, it was really 2 to 1. Antioch was still in communion with Rome, while Antioch and Alexandria were essentially Constantinopolitan puppet sees, with only maybe Jerusalem remaining authentic in some loose sense.

All of that to say, I fully believe that the Eastern Orthodox Church remained the one true and Catholic Church, but this scenario is no slam dunk against Rome as a numbers game.



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« Reply #30 on: October 19, 2012, 09:18:07 AM »

Green_umbrella's posts are always so full of rehashed latin propaganda.

Just asking questions.

Besides let us not be harsh to fellow Trinitarian believing Christians. No need to jump to a strong adversarial pose when the RCC is mentioned.

You weren't asking questions. You were making arguments for the RCC being the True Church in contrast to the Orthodox Church. If that's what you believe fine (and we'll agree to disagree) but please try to be honest as to what you were saying.

James

No. I am not making arguments for the RCC being the True Church in contrast to the Orthodox Church. And I am asking question. Someone answer please.

Did the Orthodox Church change its position on contraception and the Roman Catholic church has always held the same dogma? Anyone? I do not know and want to know.
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« Reply #31 on: October 19, 2012, 09:21:56 AM »


Well let us look here.

Jesus said Matthew 16:18 ¨And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.¨

I think the tradition is Peter went to Rome. Also let us say the obvious. History has been very harsh to the Orthodox Church. The Muslims took over all the lands of those 4 Patriarchs. The Hagia Sofia was turned into a mosque and then museum. The traditional Orthodox Christians in these muslim lands are dwindling to nothing. There was communism and all their attacks on the church.

Does that sound like the ¨Rock¨? It does not to me. Sounds like the curse really.

And it was the Roman Catholic Church and later with the Protestant churches that spread Christianity around the world. Orthodox Christianity is very centrally located in Eastern Europe mostly.   

Things are more complicated than they look. If your judgment is so clear-cut, you have to believe that the Church was under a curse until 313 A.D. More, a Jew would follow your reasoning and conclude that Jesus cannot be the Messiah because He was crucified.

What about the Reformation? Was that a blessing or a curse?  Roll Eyes

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« Reply #32 on: October 19, 2012, 09:22:13 AM »

Green_umbrella's posts are always so full of rehashed latin propaganda.

Just asking questions.

Besides let us not be harsh to fellow Trinitarian believing Christians. No need to jump to a strong adversarial pose when the RCC is mentioned.

You weren't asking questions. You were making arguments for the RCC being the True Church in contrast to the Orthodox Church. If that's what you believe fine (and we'll agree to disagree) but please try to be honest as to what you were saying.

James

No. I am not making arguments for the RCC being the True Church in contrast to the Orthodox Church. And I am asking question. Someone answer please.

Did the Orthodox Church change its position on contraception and the Roman Catholic church has always held the same dogma? Anyone? I do not know and want to know.

I answered you and said that such a discussion would be better off in another thread. I've never seen any dogma, however, related to contraception. You seem to look at everything from a rather Latin perspective.

James
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« Reply #33 on: October 19, 2012, 09:26:31 AM »

Green_umbrella's posts are always so full of rehashed latin propaganda.

Just asking questions.

Besides let us not be harsh to fellow Trinitarian believing Christians. No need to jump to a strong adversarial pose when the RCC is mentioned.

You weren't asking questions. You were making arguments for the RCC being the True Church in contrast to the Orthodox Church. If that's what you believe fine (and we'll agree to disagree) but please try to be honest as to what you were saying.

James

No. I am not making arguments for the RCC being the True Church in contrast to the Orthodox Church. And I am asking question. Someone answer please.

Did the Orthodox Church change its position on contraception and the Roman Catholic church has always held the same dogma? Anyone? I do not know and want to know.

I answered you and said that such a discussion would be better off in another thread. I've never seen any dogma, however, related to contraception. You seem to look at everything from a rather Latin perspective.

James

So you are saying, ¨No¨ The Orthodox Church has never changed its position on contraception. It has always maintained the same position on contraception. Right?
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« Reply #34 on: October 19, 2012, 09:31:07 AM »

Is there even an official Orthodox position on contraception?
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« Reply #35 on: October 19, 2012, 09:31:49 AM »

Green_umbrella's posts are always so full of rehashed latin propaganda.

Just asking questions.

Besides let us not be harsh to fellow Trinitarian believing Christians. No need to jump to a strong adversarial pose when the RCC is mentioned.

You weren't asking questions. You were making arguments for the RCC being the True Church in contrast to the Orthodox Church. If that's what you believe fine (and we'll agree to disagree) but please try to be honest as to what you were saying.

James

No. I am not making arguments for the RCC being the True Church in contrast to the Orthodox Church. And I am asking question. Someone answer please.

Did the Orthodox Church change its position on contraception and the Roman Catholic church has always held the same dogma? Anyone? I do not know and want to know.

It's very personal thing to be discussed with the spiritual father. It's neither dogma nor law. The Orthodox Church contrary to the Latin Church, never has tried to enter so deeply into the isssues of a married couple (if I'm mistaken, correct me, please). The Orthodox Church hasn't changed anything in the faith. I think I don't need to write a list of the things changed in RC Church?

Sometiems when I read some discussions on RC forums, 1/2 of the topics are about contraception or similar things,as it would be the most necessary thing to the salvation.
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« Reply #36 on: October 19, 2012, 09:33:46 AM »

Is there even an official Orthodox position on contraception?

You are asking me?  Grin

I have no idea. That is why I am asking the question. It looks like no one else knows either!  laugh
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« Reply #37 on: October 19, 2012, 09:37:20 AM »

It was half-retorical, half-serious. I don't take those anticonception pills myself, so I wouldn't know.
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« Reply #38 on: October 19, 2012, 09:41:39 AM »

Is there any evidence showing that Orthodox Church is the only Church founded by Jesus and His disciple in A.D 33?

History. 5 Patriarchs were there, one left the Church.

History. 5 Patriarchs were there, four left the Church?

The vote was 4 to 1.


Who are these 5 Patriarchs? Why are they so important??

Why can these four Patriachs help to prove Orthodox Church is the only true Church?

Can anybody ask my above question?

Is there any other STRONG evidence showing that Orthodox Church is the only true Church?

There is still no strong evidence to convince me that Orthodox Church is the only true Church and all its teaching is 100% correct...
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« Reply #39 on: October 19, 2012, 09:43:15 AM »

What kind of evidence are you looking for?
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« Reply #40 on: October 19, 2012, 09:47:56 AM »

Why do Orthodox Christian say that Orthodox Church is founded by Jesus and his disciple, not Catholic Church?
 

Because it was founded by Christ with the Apostles.  The Catholic Church didn’t exist until around 1054.  

Why do Orthodox Christians say that Orthodox Church is founded in A.D 33, not  in 10th century?
 
10th Century?  You are thinking of the Catholic Church splitting off during the Great Schism and becoming its own entity outside communion with the Orthodox Church.

Can anybody briefly tell me the history of Orthodox Church?

Jesus came, taught the Apostles who taught their disciples, etc.

Be careful. The Orthodox Church considers itself the Catholic Church, as well (according to some on this forum), so you may wish to qualify your use of the name "Catholic" if you wish to refer to the Roman Catholic Church or the Eastern Catholic Church.
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« Reply #41 on: October 19, 2012, 09:50:13 AM »

Is there any evidence showing that Orthodox Church is the only Church founded by Jesus and His disciple in A.D 33?

History. 5 Patriarchs were there, one left the Church.

History. 5 Patriarchs were there, four left the Church?

The vote was 4 to 1.


Who are these 5 Patriarchs? Why are they so important??

Why can these four Patriachs help to prove Orthodox Church is the only true Church?

Can anybody ask my above question?

Is there any other STRONG evidence showing that Orthodox Church is the only true Church?

There is still no strong evidence to convince me that Orthodox Church is the only true Church and all its teaching is 100% correct...


The 5 Patriarch are, Alexandria-St. Mark, Jerusalem-St. James, Antioch-St.Peter, Constantinople-St. Andrew and Rome-St. Peter.

I think this is right. Could be wrong.
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« Reply #42 on: October 19, 2012, 09:56:19 AM »

I can only tell you how I came to my own conclusions...

1) The first thing was deciding that Jesus did mean to start a visible Church, and that the Apostles did indeed help build up this Church. I came to this conclusion based mainly on Scripture.

2) The second thing was deciding that the early Church continued this Church, and believed in visible authority structures. I came to this conclusion based mainly on the early Church writings and history from the first few centuries.

3) The third thing was deciding that the Church did not somehow go off the tracks with St. Constantine or one of the Roman Popes or whatever. This obviously involved a lot more history, checked back against the Scripture and witness of the early Christians.

4) Once I had accepted these things, the fourth thing was deciding which Church existing today was the the Church Jesus founded, the Church Jesus prophecied could not be destroyed. I eventually converted to Orthodoxy rather than Catholicism or Anglicanism.

This was the process I went through. It was much more complicated that the above would indicate, but that's the basic framework I think. If you'd like specific thoughts and evidence for any of these let me know and I can post more.
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« Reply #43 on: October 19, 2012, 09:57:22 AM »

What kind of evidence are you looking for?
Catholic Church and Protestant Church also claim that they are the only true Church in this world.They also claim that teaching/Doctrine is also 100% correct.

Why would you think that only the teaching of Orthodox Church must be 100% correct while Catholic and Protestant must be 100% incorrect?
« Last Edit: October 19, 2012, 10:02:46 AM by walter1234 » Logged
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« Reply #44 on: October 19, 2012, 10:06:04 AM »

Roman and protestant doctrines are correct insofar as they are the same as those of Orthodoxy, so I would never say that they're wrong in everything.
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