Topic: requirements for bread and wine

[Iconodule]

I've read somewhere that in Alaska grape juice is used in some places because of the alcoholism there.

Again, from my Catholic experience.  A Catholic priest said that as soon as air hits grape juice it begins to ferment.  So, according to him, it could be considered "immature" wine.  Go figure.

Wait, you're saying that the water wasn't turned to Welch's at Cana?

[choy]

thanks, father serb1389.
i will make a note to not looked shocked if i take serbian Holy Communion.
do all the EO use salt? i had greek antidoran once and it did taste different, maybe this is why.
for us salt represents the sin, i can't remember exactly why.

i suppose Christians in countries / areas where alcohol is banned also use alcohol free wine.

Didn't Jesus call us to be the salt of the earth?  Also Leviticus said that grain offerings should be salted.

[choy]

I've read somewhere that in Alaska grape juice is used in some places because of the alcoholism there.

Again, from my Catholic experience.  A Catholic priest said that as soon as air hits grape juice it begins to ferment.  So, according to him, it could be considered "immature" wine.  Go figure.

Wait, you're saying that the water wasn't turned to Welch's at Cana?

The Catholic Church allows Mustum to be used.  That is freshly squeezed grape juice that can ferment into wine but has not been given the time to do so.  It is already in the fermenting process, but not enough that it is alcoholic.  Or maybe it is a little alcoholic.

Supermarket grape juice are either artifically flavored, or has been treated in a way that it won't ferment at all.

[Ikonos]

To make the true Living Bread of the Eucharist you first need to make the small Barley Loaves.
Without these it is not possible to make the authentic Bread of the Last Supper.
The Barley loaves are the yeast which is added to three measures of flour ('there was a lot of grass in that place') and given to a 'woman' until all the dough has risen.

Store-bought yeast is absolutely not used.

Many are being deceived into thinking they are getting the real thing - a tragedy for desperate Christians and Christianity. The Evil ones have done a magnificent job in dividing and confusing Christians so the sacraments are being denied to the Faithful. This is partly why there are so few genuine miracles and Christians lack power today.
Even now, Powers and Principalities unseen, are taking steps to make it forbidden to obtain the Eucharist.

I really wonder how many 'Orthodox' Churches (especially in the West) actually are being operated by 'blind' clergy.
It is the 'blind leading the blind'.
It's tragic when laity (and clergy) are making Prosphora in an 'unorthodox' way.

In a painting called Hermit Saints Triptych by Hieronymus Bosch you can see the five Barley cakes needed (see inset picture detail attached).

http://www.wikipaintings.org/en/hieronymus-bosch/hermit-saints-triptych

Hieronymus Bosch (Born c.1450) was a member of the Brotherhood of Our Lady, which was a highly respected conservative religious group

To whom does a Christian go when they can't get real the real Eucharist?
How does one know they are getting the real thing? (If, an hour after receiving it, one closes one's eyes and you will feel, see and know the real thing.....)
The knowledge of how to make the Barley Cakes and real Bread is perhaps now becoming available to the underground Christian.....

As for the wine, firstly there is Christian wine which is meant for frequent use as a tonic in small amounts ('for your frequent illnesses').
Then there is the Blood of Christ, which is not the same thing, and taken only at certain frequencies.
Alcohol is to be avoided at all costs.
The Bitter Cup is again, a separate thing.

I would love to say all I know but am forbidden by hands stronger than mine. I will be severely castigated just for expounding this knowledge, even though I have never taken any oath.

[mike]

I would love to say all I know but am forbidden by hands stronger than mine. I will be severely castigated just for expounding this knowledge, even though I have never taken any oath.

Good. It would be a catastrophe if you insisted on sharing all the secred "knowledge" you have with us.

[PeterTheAleut]

In a fallen state of captivity, I seek to exchange Pearls of Wisdom with the few repentant Philokalists who roam this domain.

What is a repentant Philokalist?

If a Philokalist is one who reads the Philokalia, why are you even reading this if you're not yet Orthodox?

[Αριστοκλής]

So...I wonder if our interlocutor knows what "artos" is?

[Ikonos]

Good. It would be a catastrophe if you insisted on sharing all the secred "knowledge" you have with us.

Fear not Michal, this 'interlocutor' will no longer share his wild, speculative theories amongst these digital mediums.

What is a repentant Philokalist?

If a Philokalist is one who reads the Philokalia, why are you even reading this if you're not yet Orthodox?

Peter, by 'Philokalist' I meant one who loves goodness.

Maybe I will never become 'Orthodox' - would I be welcome among 'Orthodox' with my questioning theories or do I have to behave like a silent sheep to be accepted?

So...I wonder if our interlocutor knows what "artos" is?

Αριστοκλής, I know of 'Artos', but I'm not sure how you might make it.

[PeterTheAleut]

Maybe I will never become 'Orthodox' - would I be welcome among 'Orthodox' with my questioning theories or do I have to behave like a silent sheep to be accepted?

When you have the audacity to tell the Orthodox that most of them are doing it wrong, even though you've never been Orthodox before, then one has to wonder if your biggest problem is merely your resistance to behaving like a silent sheep.

[Ikonos]

Maybe I will never become 'Orthodox' - would I be welcome among 'Orthodox' with my questioning theories or do I have to behave like a silent sheep to be accepted?

When you have the audacity to tell the Orthodox that most of them are doing it wrong, even though you've never been Orthodox before, then one has to wonder if your biggest problem is merely your resistance to behaving like a silent sheep.

Peter, Yes you are quite right. Please forgive my arrogance born of frustration and pride.
I humbly offer my apologies. A little knowledge has filled me with the demon of pride. I realise I have much to learn!

[HabteSelassie]

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Interesting tangent connections..

Holy Communion is so important in the world, that aside from Salvation and Eternal Life, the surplus ingredients even helped birth great beer the world!


In the European and subsequent American experience, good beer is a result of these requirements for Holy Communion.  The laity were required to tithe grain and wine/grape offerings for the use in the Mass.  In Northern Europe, obviously grain is a bit more accessible than wine/grapes, so often if the priests had a surplus from offerings, it was not going to be wine.  So what did they drink? Beer! Plenty of grain for that, and after experimenting with different recipes and brewing techniques delicious malty ales, hearty stouts, and crisp lagers were discovered.  In Mediterranean and Middle East regions, grapes were a bit more prevalent, hence a more wine oriented culture, whereas in Europe and later America, beer took the lead as the cultural drink.  What would we be drinking if those monks hadn't collected grains for the Offering?



Grain alcohol is of course popular in Russia and the Caucasus  regions too, but I prefer beer

stay blessed,
habte selassie

[Αριστοκλής]

Maybe I will never become 'Orthodox' - would I be welcome among 'Orthodox' with my questioning theories or do I have to behave like a silent sheep to be accepted?

When you have the audacity to tell the Orthodox that most of them are doing it wrong, even though you've never been Orthodox before, then one has to wonder if your biggest problem is merely your resistance to behaving like a silent sheep.

Peter, Yes you are quite right. Please forgive my arrogance born of frustration and pride.
I humbly offer my apologies. A little knowledge has filled me with the demon of pride. I realise I have much to learn!

I tip my hat to you.

[TinyDancer]

I was just going to ask this question- so wine just needs to be sweet, red, alcoholic, and pure?

I can't bake bread worth a darn, but my husband and I are homebrewers and have made some good wine.  We would like to try to make wine for the church since the bread is beyond my skills.

[choy]

I was just going to ask this question- so wine just needs to be sweet, red, alcoholic, and pure?

I can't bake bread worth a darn, but my husband and I are homebrewers and have made some good wine.  We would like to try to make wine for the church since the bread is beyond my skills.

Baking bread is easy.  I went from totally not knowing how to make bread to making Prosphoras in under a year.  Yes, I only started making bread in the Spring of 2011.  You do have to invest a lot of time though at the beginning.  You need, by experience, be able to develop your own technique and feel for the dough.

When the Patriarch of the UGCC was in town, I had to make prosphora for the Liturgies that was going to happen.  I haven't made prosphora in months (I made a huge batch in December last year for catechesis and we have a lot left over) but since I have learned the technique at least for this recipe, I just whipped together the dough almost unconciously.  Just keep making bread all the time and you will develop the skills for it through trial and error.  And bread is bread, you can eat all bread you make no matter how bad you do it, with the exception of undercooking in.  But then you can always put it back into the oven and cook it some more.

[TinyDancer]

Regardless, there are plenty of yayas who make good bread, I'm the only one who knows how to make wine

[choy]

Regardless, there are plenty of yayas who make good bread, I'm the only one who knows how to make wine

So please share your technique

[TinyDancer]

Sanitize, sanitize, sanitize.

[Subdeacon Michael]

AFAIR you can use white wine (and dry or semi-dry too).

Forgive me that I have forgotten that the Latins do use white wine.  Although sadly such practice has spread to Eastern Catholic Churches.

I thought that white wine was not allowed by Catholic tradition. I thought it was Anglicans and Lutherans who instituted this to support their odd notions.

I think that this is perhaps a little unfair to the Anglicans who use white wine.  

In my Anglican days, I belonged almost exclusively to Anglo-Catholic parishes, where the use of white wine is fairly ubiquitous.  In many cases, this is a conscious choice so that the people may come to know and understand that the wine becomes the Blood of Christ, regardless of its physical appearance as wine.  This is in direct and deliberate opposition to the more protestant-minded Anglicans who often insist on using red wine to make their point that it is only a symbol of the Blood of Christ, and that it is, therefore, helpful for it to be red.

While I agree that the Orthodox understanding that the Mysteries are both a sign and a symbol (that is, they signify the reality that they also become) is the fuller understanding and is to be preferred, I do not think that the notions of Anglicans who use white wine are odd.  In fact, given their circumstances (being part of a church which contains people who deny the Eucharist), I think that they are to be commended.

Of course, it would be better for them to simply join themselves to the Orthodox Church and be in communion with people who confess as they do, and where their belief in the Eucharist would be found to be a sacramental reality.

M