Author Topic: requirements for bread and wine  (Read 3536 times)

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Offline choy

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requirements for bread and wine
« on: October 16, 2012, 01:21:33 AM »
What is the requirement to make bread and wine for Divine Liturgy?  Does the Orthodox Church have the same standards are the Roman Catholics?  Aside from the obvious difference of leaven.

Offline mike

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Re: requirements for bread and wine
« Reply #1 on: October 16, 2012, 01:26:10 AM »
Bread: wheat, with flour, yeast, salt and water only
Wine: red, grape, sweet and alcoholic, withous some extra additions

That's how was I taught.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2012, 01:26:59 AM by Michał Kalina »

Offline choy

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Re: requirements for bread and wine
« Reply #2 on: October 16, 2012, 01:36:40 AM »
Bread: wheat, with flour, yeast, salt and water only
Wine: red, grape, sweet and alcoholic, withous some extra additions

That's how was I taught.

So like the Catholics, no nitrates or preservatives in the wine?

Offline mike

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Re: requirements for bread and wine
« Reply #3 on: October 16, 2012, 02:00:13 AM »
AFAIR you can use white wine (and dry or semi-dry too).

Offline LBK

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Re: requirements for bread and wine
« Reply #4 on: October 16, 2012, 02:47:11 AM »
AFAIR you can use white wine (and dry or semi-dry too).

It would be an act of extreme economia to allow this, to put it mildly.
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Offline mildert

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Re: requirements for bread and wine
« Reply #5 on: October 16, 2012, 12:56:54 PM »
AFAIR you can use white wine (and dry or semi-dry too).

The problem is that most wines (apart from the sweetest) become very acid once the hot water is added.
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Offline mike

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Re: requirements for bread and wine
« Reply #6 on: October 16, 2012, 01:02:43 PM »
AFAIR you can use white wine (and dry or semi-dry too).

It would be an act of extreme economia to allow this, to put it mildly.

I meant the Catholics (like choy).

Offline Benjamin the Red

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Re: requirements for bread and wine
« Reply #7 on: October 16, 2012, 01:28:56 PM »
Bread: wheat, with flour, yeast, salt and water only
Wine: red, grape, sweet and alcoholic, withous some extra additions

That's how was I taught.

So like the Catholics, no nitrates or preservatives in the wine?

Right. I was at a parish once, and we had to change wines because we found out the one we were using was artificially sweetened with corn syrup.
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Re: requirements for bread and wine
« Reply #8 on: October 16, 2012, 01:35:19 PM »
Would the use of kosher wines like Manischewitz (sp?) be permitted?

Offline Benjamin the Red

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Re: requirements for bread and wine
« Reply #9 on: October 16, 2012, 01:37:35 PM »
Would the use of kosher wines like Manischewitz (sp?) be permitted?

The wine I mentioned above was a Jewish kosher wine. It was fine, except for being artificially sweetened.
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Offline mike

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Re: requirements for bread and wine
« Reply #10 on: October 16, 2012, 02:10:37 PM »
We use Jewish wine too.

Offline choy

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Re: requirements for bread and wine
« Reply #11 on: October 16, 2012, 02:45:45 PM »
I meant the Catholics (like choy).

I'm not Catholic, I'm Papist Orthodox  ;D :laugh:

Offline choy

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Re: requirements for bread and wine
« Reply #12 on: October 16, 2012, 02:47:00 PM »
AFAIR you can use white wine (and dry or semi-dry too).

Forgive me that I have forgotten that the Latins do use white wine.  Although sadly such practice has spread to Eastern Catholic Churches.

Offline orthonorm

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Re: requirements for bread and wine
« Reply #13 on: October 16, 2012, 03:40:36 PM »
Would the use of kosher wines like Manischewitz (sp?) be permitted?

The wine I mentioned above was a Jewish kosher wine. It was fine, except for being artificially sweetened.

It was probably just fortified. Is that kosher? Cause that is what Mani is.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2012, 03:41:00 PM by orthonorm »
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Offline Deacon Lance

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Re: requirements for bread and wine
« Reply #14 on: October 16, 2012, 04:07:22 PM »
Would the use of kosher wines like Manischewitz (sp?) be permitted?

The wine I mentioned above was a Jewish kosher wine. It was fine, except for being artificially sweetened.

It was probably just fortified. Is that kosher? Cause that is what Mani is.

Fortified means distilled grape spirits have been added to boost the alcohol content.  Manischewitz does add corn syrup which makes it non-kosher for some Orthodox Jewish groups as well as unsuitable for both Orthodox and Catholics.
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Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: requirements for bread and wine
« Reply #15 on: October 16, 2012, 04:26:57 PM »
AFAIR you can use white wine (and dry or semi-dry too).

It would be an act of extreme economia to allow this, to put it mildly.

And a slippery slope to Stalin icons.
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Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: requirements for bread and wine
« Reply #16 on: October 16, 2012, 04:29:06 PM »
AFAIR you can use white wine (and dry or semi-dry too).

Forgive me that I have forgotten that the Latins do use white wine.  Although sadly such practice has spread to Eastern Catholic Churches.

I thought that white wine was not allowed by Catholic tradition. I thought it was Anglicans and Lutherans who instituted this to support their odd notions.
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Offline choy

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Re: requirements for bread and wine
« Reply #17 on: October 16, 2012, 04:45:19 PM »
AFAIR you can use white wine (and dry or semi-dry too).

Forgive me that I have forgotten that the Latins do use white wine.  Although sadly such practice has spread to Eastern Catholic Churches.

I thought that white wine was not allowed by Catholic tradition. I thought it was Anglicans and Lutherans who instituted this to support their odd notions.

It is.  De Defectibus only mentions what is in the wine, but not which color of wine.  So white wine that fits the "requirements" will pass and in fact is more commonly used today because it just doesn't stain as bad as red wine.

Offline age234

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Re: requirements for bread and wine
« Reply #18 on: October 16, 2012, 04:50:15 PM »
Would the use of kosher wines like Manischewitz (sp?) be permitted?

Yes. My priest uses that brand of wine.

Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: requirements for bread and wine
« Reply #19 on: October 16, 2012, 05:14:49 PM »
AFAIR you can use white wine (and dry or semi-dry too).

Forgive me that I have forgotten that the Latins do use white wine.  Although sadly such practice has spread to Eastern Catholic Churches.

I thought that white wine was not allowed by Catholic tradition. I thought it was Anglicans and Lutherans who instituted this to support their odd notions.

It is.  De Defectibus only mentions what is in the wine, but not which color of wine.  So white wine that fits the "requirements" will pass and in fact is more commonly used today because it just doesn't stain as bad as red wine.

How old is that document, and what was the prevailing tradition before it? Not that that really matters for Roman Catholicism, sadly.
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Offline choy

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Re: requirements for bread and wine
« Reply #20 on: October 16, 2012, 05:24:32 PM »
How old is that document, and what was the prevailing tradition before it? Not that that really matters for Roman Catholicism, sadly.

It was a Papal Bull by Pope Pius V that came out of the Council of Trent.  It described the defects of the matter when bread or wine could not become or be used for the Sacrament.  There is no mention on color of wine.

Offline serb1389

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Re: requirements for bread and wine
« Reply #21 on: October 16, 2012, 05:40:13 PM »
It is interesting to note that in the Greek Ieratikon the wine is called "nama" of which there is actually a wine called Nama from Santorini:  http://www.canavaroussos.gr/uk/oinopoiia.html
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Offline OrthoNoob

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Re: requirements for bread and wine
« Reply #22 on: October 16, 2012, 05:43:58 PM »
AFAIR you can use white wine (and dry or semi-dry too).

It would be an act of extreme economia to allow this, to put it mildly.

I've heard of bishops in prison in Soviet times using water. I wouldn't have given any credit to it except that it was my parish priest who told me about it during a catechism class. Are there any absolute requirements of matter that no economia can dispense?
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Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: requirements for bread and wine
« Reply #23 on: October 16, 2012, 05:49:38 PM »
AFAIR you can use white wine (and dry or semi-dry too).

It would be an act of extreme economia to allow this, to put it mildly.

I've heard of bishops in prison in Soviet times using water. I wouldn't have given any credit to it except that it was my parish priest who told me about it during a catechism class. Are there any absolute requirements of matter that no economia can dispense?

That would depend on what is classified as economia. When the definition is too broad, it falls apart and doesn't do it's purpose but instead counteracts its purpose.
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Offline orthonorm

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Re: requirements for bread and wine
« Reply #24 on: October 16, 2012, 05:50:17 PM »
Would the use of kosher wines like Manischewitz (sp?) be permitted?

The wine I mentioned above was a Jewish kosher wine. It was fine, except for being artificially sweetened.

It was probably just fortified. Is that kosher? Cause that is what Mani is.

Fortified means distilled grape spirits have been added to boost the alcohol content.  Manischewitz does add corn syrup which makes it non-kosher for some Orthodox Jewish groups as well as unsuitable for both Orthodox and Catholics.

Better start writing the Bishops.
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Offline choy

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Re: requirements for bread and wine
« Reply #25 on: October 16, 2012, 05:55:17 PM »
AFAIR you can use white wine (and dry or semi-dry too).

It would be an act of extreme economia to allow this, to put it mildly.

I've heard of bishops in prison in Soviet times using water. I wouldn't have given any credit to it except that it was my parish priest who told me about it during a catechism class. Are there any absolute requirements of matter that no economia can dispense?

Maybe they pray for the water to turn into wine?  But in any case I have faith that God will supply the grace to them no matter what.

Offline age234

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Re: requirements for bread and wine
« Reply #26 on: October 16, 2012, 06:25:02 PM »
AFAIR you can use white wine (and dry or semi-dry too).

It would be an act of extreme economia to allow this, to put it mildly.

I've heard of bishops in prison in Soviet times using water. I wouldn't have given any credit to it except that it was my parish priest who told me about it during a catechism class. Are there any absolute requirements of matter that no economia can dispense?

Depends on the circumstances. In a Soviet prison camp, perhaps. In a land where there are supermarket aisles full of $5 bottles of wine, no.

Offline age234

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Re: requirements for bread and wine
« Reply #27 on: October 16, 2012, 06:29:05 PM »
AFAIR you can use white wine (and dry or semi-dry too).

Forgive me that I have forgotten that the Latins do use white wine.  Although sadly such practice has spread to Eastern Catholic Churches.

I thought that white wine was not allowed by Catholic tradition. I thought it was Anglicans and Lutherans who instituted this to support their odd notions.

It is.  De Defectibus only mentions what is in the wine, but not which color of wine.  So white wine that fits the "requirements" will pass and in fact is more commonly used today because it just doesn't stain as bad as red wine.

One would think stains would be the least concern when dealing with the Lord's blood... Wouldn't anything that gets spilled on be burned anyway?

Offline choy

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Re: requirements for bread and wine
« Reply #28 on: October 16, 2012, 06:57:50 PM »
One would think stains would be the least concern when dealing with the Lord's blood... Wouldn't anything that gets spilled on be burned anyway?

The stains can happen prior to consecration.  Remember in the Latin Mass, normally only the priest receives from the chalice.  The danger of spilling from consecration to the end of the Mass is minimal.  Most of the spilling would occur when the priest is preparing the chalice and putting the wine in.

At least that is what I heard from some people, that they prefer white wine because it is easier to wash the purificators.

Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: requirements for bread and wine
« Reply #29 on: October 16, 2012, 07:15:40 PM »
One would think stains would be the least concern when dealing with the Lord's blood... Wouldn't anything that gets spilled on be burned anyway?

The stains can happen prior to consecration.  Remember in the Latin Mass, normally only the priest receives from the chalice.  The danger of spilling from consecration to the end of the Mass is minimal.  Most of the spilling would occur when the priest is preparing the chalice and putting the wine in.

At least that is what I heard from some people, that they prefer white wine because it is easier to wash the purificators.

This is wear communing under one species gets us--using white wine because of the fuss of stains.
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Re: requirements for bread and wine
« Reply #30 on: October 16, 2012, 08:10:05 PM »
Would the use of kosher wines like Manischewitz (sp?) be permitted?

The wine I mentioned above was a Jewish kosher wine. It was fine, except for being artificially sweetened.

It was probably just fortified. Is that kosher? Cause that is what Mani is.

Fortified means distilled grape spirits have been added to boost the alcohol content.  Manischewitz does add corn syrup which makes it non-kosher for some Orthodox Jewish groups as well as unsuitable for both Orthodox and Catholics.

Better start writing the Bishops.

Should we not use the purest and best we have?
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Offline age234

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Re: requirements for bread and wine
« Reply #31 on: October 16, 2012, 08:17:56 PM »
One would think stains would be the least concern when dealing with the Lord's blood... Wouldn't anything that gets spilled on be burned anyway?

The stains can happen prior to consecration.  Remember in the Latin Mass, normally only the priest receives from the chalice.  The danger of spilling from consecration to the end of the Mass is minimal.  Most of the spilling would occur when the priest is preparing the chalice and putting the wine in.

At least that is what I heard from some people, that they prefer white wine because it is easier to wash the purificators.

I've been an altar server, so I can empathize with the kinds of issues you're talking about. I just have a hard time believing spillage is such a major problem that white wine needs to be used. "Be a little more careful" sounds best to me...

The Russians give communicants unconsecrated wine+water mix to drink after communion, and people manage not to spill it. I don't know...it's just fuzzy logic IMO.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2012, 08:19:06 PM by age234 »

Offline Deacon Lance

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Re: requirements for bread and wine
« Reply #32 on: October 16, 2012, 08:25:52 PM »
I don't think that much white is used to be honest.  I know I've never come across it since I was ordained and I don't remember it being used as an altar boy.
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Offline choy

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Re: requirements for bread and wine
« Reply #33 on: October 16, 2012, 08:33:55 PM »
I don't think that much white is used to be honest.  I know I've never come across it since I was ordained and I don't remember it being used as an altar boy.

Its used here where I am at.

Offline 88Devin12

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Re: requirements for bread and wine
« Reply #34 on: October 17, 2012, 12:51:08 AM »
As for spilling it, that really doesn't happen that much. Our chalices usually have a wide base to them so they aren't easy to knock over. If you talk about spilling off the spoon, that is what the red cloth is for, the red isn't just for prettyness, it helps hide stains. Usually the Priests clean up as best as they can. The clothes are reused and sometimes washed (they don't have the body on them).

You try to clean up the best you can but sometimes you can't get everything.

I've never ever seen white wine used and I seriously doubt it would fly.

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Re: requirements for bread and wine
« Reply #35 on: October 17, 2012, 10:20:09 AM »
It is interesting to note that in the Greek Ieratikon the wine is called "nama" of which there is actually a wine called Nama from Santorini:  http://www.canavaroussos.gr/uk/oinopoiia.html

Nama is a style of wine - like Port or Riesling. Nama is created in the same manner as Commandaria, with a drying of the grapes to increase sugar content before pressing. Alcohol in wine is produced by conversion of sugar. A higher sugar content means more alcohol, unless the process is stopped at a certain point, that allows for sweetness.

This natural fortification and sweetness is why Nama and Commandaria are used for communion. Port has natural sweetness but the fortification is gained by turning some of the wine into brandy and then adding back into the wine.

The high alcohol content is needed so the wine will not go bad quickly, alcohol acts as a preservative.

Once last note, Nama tends to be the preference because of the ruby color and pure grape taste. There is something special about the Santorini, volcanic soil that makes the Nama from there shine in taste and color.
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Re: requirements for bread and wine
« Reply #36 on: October 17, 2012, 10:55:23 AM »
AFAIR you can use white wine (and dry or semi-dry too).

It would be an act of extreme economia to allow this, to put it mildly.

I've heard of bishops in prison in Soviet times using water. I wouldn't have given any credit to it except that it was my parish priest who told me about it during a catechism class. Are there any absolute requirements of matter that no economia can dispense?

I remember hearing a story (how true this is I don't know) that on Stalin's birthday, the prisoners would be given raisin buns, from which the priest would remove the raisins and put that in warm water to make wine and use the bun for the Lamb.
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Offline IXOYE

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Re: requirements for bread and wine
« Reply #37 on: October 17, 2012, 01:34:04 PM »
AFAIR you can use white wine (and dry or semi-dry too).

Forgive me that I have forgotten that the Latins do use white wine.  Although sadly such practice has spread to Eastern Catholic Churches.

I thought that white wine was not allowed by Catholic tradition. I thought it was Anglicans and Lutherans who instituted this to support their odd notions.


I knew a Maronite Catholic priest that used White Zinfandel for his chalice wine.

Offline Monk Vasyl

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Re: requirements for bread and wine
« Reply #38 on: October 17, 2012, 02:24:22 PM »
When I was a Latin Rite Franciscan, we would mostly use a dry wine and sometimes it was white.  I was told by my upper classmates that one priest even, once, used champagne!
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Offline choy

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Re: requirements for bread and wine
« Reply #39 on: October 17, 2012, 02:44:20 PM »
I remember hearing a story (how true this is I don't know) that on Stalin's birthday, the prisoners would be given raisin buns, from which the priest would remove the raisins and put that in warm water to make wine and use the bun for the Lamb.

Interesting story.

Offline mabsoota

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Re: requirements for bread and wine
« Reply #40 on: October 17, 2012, 04:00:10 PM »
do eastern orthodox put salt in the bread?
we have a strict 'no salt' rule, so the antidoran always seems to taste sweet (to me anyway).

as for wine, it is the same (except i can't imagine we would ever use white!) and i have communed with commandaria.
(accidently found some non consecrated communion wine in my car once!)

many british catholics (and some irish) commune with the Body and Blood both (as it should be).
it seems to be that the Body only communing comes from central or eastern europe.

Offline serb1389

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Re: requirements for bread and wine
« Reply #41 on: October 17, 2012, 04:01:48 PM »
do eastern orthodox put salt in the bread?
we have a strict 'no salt' rule, so the antidoran always seems to taste sweet (to me anyway).

as for wine, it is the same (except i can't imagine we would ever use white!) and i have communed with commandaria.
(accidently found some non consecrated communion wine in my car once!)

many british catholics (and some irish) commune with the Body and Blood both (as it should be).
it seems to be that the Body only communing comes from central or eastern europe.

in the serbian church we put salt.  lots of it in fact. 
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Re: requirements for bread and wine
« Reply #42 on: October 17, 2012, 04:09:01 PM »
I've read somewhere that in Alaska grape juice is used in some places because of the alcoholism there.
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Offline Monk Vasyl

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Re: requirements for bread and wine
« Reply #43 on: October 17, 2012, 04:14:09 PM »
I've read somewhere that in Alaska grape juice is used in some places because of the alcoholism there.

Again, from my Catholic experience.  A Catholic priest said that as soon as air hits grape juice it begins to ferment.  So, according to him, it could be considered "immature" wine.  Go figure.
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Offline mabsoota

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Re: requirements for bread and wine
« Reply #44 on: October 17, 2012, 04:18:52 PM »
thanks, father serb1389.
i will make a note to not looked shocked if i take serbian Holy Communion.
do all the EO use salt? i had greek antidoran once and it did taste different, maybe this is why.
for us salt represents the sin, i can't remember exactly why.

i suppose Christians in countries / areas where alcohol is banned also use alcohol free wine.