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Author Topic: slain in spirit , speak in tongue  (Read 2857 times) Average Rating: 0
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walter1234
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« Reply #45 on: November 13, 2012, 11:05:40 PM »

I saw somebody casting out demons by 'tongue prayer' before. I think charismatic's ' tongue prayer ' do have the power, but the power may not come from God.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2012, 11:06:12 PM by walter1234 » Logged
walter1234
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« Reply #46 on: November 14, 2012, 07:12:24 AM »

Greek Original:

1Co 14:2 GNT - "ὁ γὰρ λαλῶν γλώσσῃ οὐκ ἀνθρώποις λαλεῖ, ἀλλὰ τῷ Θεῷ· οὐδεὶς γὰρ ἀκούει, πνεύματι δὲ λαλεῖ μυστήρια·"

" ἀκούει" means "hear" not "understand". What the Apostle wrote is that "no man hears him", that is, this "tongue" is a language that is silent. How different from the noisy charismatic.

The Orthodox speaks this tongue even today, it is the Incessant Prayer of the Heart, when the very essence of the soul prays and not only the mouth. Just as we read in Songs "even in my sleep I prayed". St. Paul calls us to learn this "tongue" when he tells to "pray without ceasing". This is not merely speaking prayers all the time, but to become such a servant of God, that our very soul lights up in flames of continuous prayer.

Even the older English translations acknowledge that:

"And he that spekith in tunge, spekith not to men, but to God; for no man herith. But the spirit spekith mysteries." [Wycliffe - 1395]

"For he that speaketh with toges speaketh not vnto men but vnto god for no man heareth him how be it in the sprete he speaketh misteries." [Tyndale - 1526]

"For he yt speaketh with tunges, speaketh not vnto men, but vnto God: for no man heareth him. Howbeit in ye sprete he speaketh misteries." [Miles Coverdale Bible - 1535]

"For he that speaketh with the tongue, speaketh not vnto men, but vnto God: For no man heareth [hym]. Howbeit, in the spirite he speaketh misteries." [Bishop's Bible - 1568]






1Cor14:2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

1Cor14:14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.


The Pentecostal and Charismatic Church use 1 Cor 14:2  to prove that  it is an unknown tongue which no man can understand what they say without the gift of interpretation.  They also use 1 Cor 14:14 to prove speak in tongue is another form of prayer,e.g. using our spirit to pray. It draw us closer to God.

Any comment about it?



Quote
1Cor 14:13:
Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret.

Quote
1 Cor 14:27-28:
If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God. 

Can this tongue prayer(e.g.Incessant Prayer of the Heart) be interpreted by himself or somebody else?
« Last Edit: November 14, 2012, 07:22:15 AM by walter1234 » Logged
Fabio Leite
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« Reply #47 on: November 14, 2012, 08:14:00 AM »

Expressing the blessed perceptions one has in unceasing prayer in fair ways is yet another gift that is not always possessed by the person who has the gift of speaking this "language of the angels". Those passages must be read together with St. Paul's exposition of the variety of gifts.

So, should the person interpret it or another one? The one that has the gift of interpretation. But remember that the gift of tongue is not a "public" gift, that is, it is not like the gift of preaching whose end is to benefit those who do not have it. It is a gift related to the purity of heart, a spiritual "conversation" of the soul of man with the Holy Spirit. Interpretation of what is perceived "there" is not the point, unless God wants to use this for very specific purposes.

I recommend this online free e-book about this topic:

Baptism by the Holy Spirit in the New Testament
by Nicholas Mavromagoulos

Quote
Scriptural evidence, step-by-step, of the Baptism by the Holy Spirit, the gifts bestowed, and a Christian's overall spiritual path, as delivered from the Apostolic era through to our time.  A book that responds to the Pentecostals' positions and elucidates the true opus of the Holy Spirit within the Church.
http://www.oodegr.com/english/biblia/Mavromagoulos_Baptism_Holy_Spirit/perieh.htm
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walter1234
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« Reply #48 on: November 15, 2012, 01:05:42 PM »

How to practice the  'Incessant Prayer of the Heart'?
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walter1234
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« Reply #49 on: November 15, 2012, 01:42:24 PM »

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Is this book approved by any canonical Orthodox Church?
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PeterTheAleut
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« Reply #50 on: November 15, 2012, 01:52:29 PM »

Quote

Is this book approved by any canonical Orthodox Church?
Are you looking for an imprimatur or something?
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walter1234
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« Reply #51 on: November 15, 2012, 02:45:27 PM »

Quote

Is this book approved by any canonical Orthodox Church?
Are you looking for an imprimatur or something?
What I mean is that is the doctrines/teachings in this book approved by the Orthodox Church, or is it just the personal teachings from Nicholas Mavromagoulos?
« Last Edit: November 15, 2012, 02:58:42 PM by walter1234 » Logged
PeterTheAleut
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Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #52 on: November 15, 2012, 03:14:58 PM »

Quote

Is this book approved by any canonical Orthodox Church?
Are you looking for an imprimatur or something?
What I mean is that is the doctrines/teachings in this book approved by the Orthodox Church, or is it just the personal teachings from Nicholas Mavromagoulos?
I'm not sure we ever had an official approval process by which the Church grants her official stamp of approval on any particular doctrine. What process we have in place, if we can call it a process, is set up specifically to disapprove of any doctrines we consider heretical.
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walter1234
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« Reply #53 on: November 16, 2012, 05:21:56 AM »

Quote

Is this book approved by any canonical Orthodox Church?
Are you looking for an imprimatur or something?
What I mean is that is the doctrines/teachings in this book approved by the Orthodox Church, or is it just the personal teachings from Nicholas Mavromagoulos?
I'm not sure we ever had an official approval process by which the Church grants her official stamp of approval on any particular doctrine. What process we have in place, if we can call it a process, is set up specifically to disapprove of any doctrines we consider heretical.
Is Nicholas Mavromagouloud ' s teaching of gift of holy spirit, speak in tongue,prophecy, interpretation, baptism by holy spirit gift of Holy spirit,etc as the doctrine of ALL Orthodox Church, or is it just his private teaching?

Do everybody here or all Orthodox Christians/ Orthodox Church agree with what Nicholas Mavromagouloud teaches?

 Because I seldom hear how the Orthodox Christian understand of speak in tongue,prophecy, interpretation, baptism by holy spirit gift of Holy spirit, spiritual anoitingetc.Orthodox Christians seldom talk about this topics.Did Orthodox Church form the doctrine of speak in tongue,prophecy, interpretation, baptism by holy spirit gift of Holy spirit, spiritual anoiting,etc together before?
« Last Edit: November 16, 2012, 05:30:18 AM by walter1234 » Logged
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« Reply #54 on: November 16, 2012, 06:53:40 AM »

The Church always had the teaching of the prayer of the heart as the gift of the Holy Spirit, and that can be found in several fathers. The whole Philokalia is about it. It was never in the forefront of discussions precisely because it should not be because it is not anything like the charismatics assume or expect. It is not something to be much talked about.

The book "innovates" only in that it brings the traditional teaching of the Apostles in comparison with the modern heresy of charismatics.

Modern "charismatic" "gift of tongues" is dellusional at best, self-hypnotic many times and demonic at worst.
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walter1234
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« Reply #55 on: November 16, 2012, 12:25:18 PM »

How can I have the gift of  'Incessant Prayer of the Heart'?
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Fabio Leite
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« Reply #56 on: November 16, 2012, 01:22:15 PM »

First, it is a *gift*. God has gifts for everyone but necessarily the gifts we would like to have. St. Seraphim of Sarov could see the uncreated light and he reports how his mother always prayed to be able to see the light of God and was never granted the gift *for her own benefit*.

Secondly, you will know if God wants you to have or not only if you ask. Smiley If He never grants it to you, don't despair, just ask Him *what* gift has He reserved for you.

Finally, to learn more about it, start with the book "The Way of the Pilgrim". I don't know which edition in English is best, so I ask my friends in the forum to help on this one. Just remember: reading this book is not a contract that binds God to give you the unceasing prayer, but if it is meant to be part of your life, than it will help.

To sum it up in few words: pray, fast, love.

How can I have the gift of  'Incessant Prayer of the Heart'?
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walter1234
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« Reply #57 on: November 16, 2012, 03:11:41 PM »

First, it is a *gift*. God has gifts for everyone but necessarily the gifts we would like to have. St. Seraphim of Sarov could see the uncreated light and he reports how his mother always prayed to be able to see the light of God and was never granted the gift *for her own benefit*.

Secondly, you will know if God wants you to have or not only if you ask. Smiley If He never grants it to you, don't despair, just ask Him *what* gift has He reserved for you.
Finally, to learn more about it, start with the book "The Way of the Pilgrim". I don't know which edition in English is best, so I ask my friends in the forum to help on this one. Just remember: reading this book is not a contract that binds God to give you the unceasing prayer, but if it is meant to be part of your life, than it will help.

To sum it up in few words: pray, fast, love.

How can I have the gift of  'Incessant Prayer of the Heart'?

Quote
1Cor 14:
15.I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.


Paul asked us to pray with the spirit and also the understandings. If God do not give me or grant me to have' gift of tongue/ prayer of the heart' , How can I pray with the spirit and also pray with the understanding ?
« Last Edit: November 16, 2012, 03:18:40 PM by walter1234 » Logged
Fabio Leite
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« Reply #58 on: November 16, 2012, 03:28:12 PM »

Paul *asked*, it is not demanded. You will not necessarily be granted the gift of understanding. What you *must* do is to trust, have faith. And respect and veneration for those who have been granted the gift of understanding, both unknown and known (the Fathers of the Church and Fathers of the Desert).

Each Christian will receive one or some gifts, but not all. As the Apostle wrote:

And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues. {diversities: or, kinds}
{Are} all apostles? {are} all prophets? {are} all teachers? {are} all workers of miracles? {workers...: or, powers?}
Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?
But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.
1 Cor 12:28-31

There is a more excellent way than of those gifts. Don't be too concerned about them.


First, it is a *gift*. God has gifts for everyone but necessarily the gifts we would like to have. St. Seraphim of Sarov could see the uncreated light and he reports how his mother always prayed to be able to see the light of God and was never granted the gift *for her own benefit*.

Secondly, you will know if God wants you to have or not only if you ask. Smiley If He never grants it to you, don't despair, just ask Him *what* gift has He reserved for you.
Finally, to learn more about it, start with the book "The Way of the Pilgrim". I don't know which edition in English is best, so I ask my friends in the forum to help on this one. Just remember: reading this book is not a contract that binds God to give you the unceasing prayer, but if it is meant to be part of your life, than it will help.

To sum it up in few words: pray, fast, love.

How can I have the gift of  'Incessant Prayer of the Heart'?

Quote
1Cor 14:
15.I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.


Paul asked us to pray with the spirit and also the understandings. If God do not give me or grant me to have' gift of tongue/ prayer of the heart' , How can I pray with the spirit and also pray with the understanding ?
« Last Edit: November 16, 2012, 03:28:36 PM by Fabio Leite » Logged

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