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Author Topic: slain in spirit , speak in tongue  (Read 4321 times) Average Rating: 0
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walter1234
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« on: October 15, 2012, 05:46:19 AM »

I come from Charismatic Church. I've go to some charismatic churches, some conferences and see some pastors can really make people falling down the flooe by worshiping and singing with a song. Some pastors can do so by breathing on the people.

How do Orthodox Christians understand of slain in spirit , speak in tongue?? Why can they do so? Where do they get this power?
« Last Edit: October 15, 2012, 05:47:10 AM by walter1234 » Logged
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« Reply #1 on: October 15, 2012, 08:03:48 AM »

First of all, glad that you have an interest in Orthodoxy, May God enlighten and have mercy on us all!

I suggest reading "Orthodoxy and the Religion of the Future" by: Father Seraphim Rose when you have a stronger grip on Orthodoxy. Its a real eye opener. Father Seraphim touches on the subject of the Charismatic Movement and strongly warns against it.
http://www.amazon.com/Orthodoxy-Religion-Future-Seraphim-Rose/dp/188790400X



 
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« Reply #2 on: October 15, 2012, 08:41:14 AM »

First of all, glad that you have an interest in Orthodoxy, May God enlighten and have mercy on us all!

I suggest reading "Orthodoxy and the Religion of the Future" by: Father Seraphim Rose when you have a stronger grip on Orthodoxy. Its a real eye opener. Father Seraphim touches on the subject of the Charismatic Movement and strongly warns against it.
http://www.amazon.com/Orthodoxy-Religion-Future-Seraphim-Rose/dp/188790400X



 


I live in Hong Kong. I do not think I can buy this book here! Cry
« Last Edit: October 15, 2012, 08:41:29 AM by walter1234 » Logged
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« Reply #3 on: October 15, 2012, 09:16:20 AM »

First of all, glad that you have an interest in Orthodoxy, May God enlighten and have mercy on us all!

I suggest reading "Orthodoxy and the Religion of the Future" by: Father Seraphim Rose when you have a stronger grip on Orthodoxy. Its a real eye opener. Father Seraphim touches on the subject of the Charismatic Movement and strongly warns against it.
http://www.amazon.com/Orthodoxy-Religion-Future-Seraphim-Rose/dp/188790400X



 


I live in Hong Kong. I do not think I can buy this book here! Cry

Not even on Amazon or Amazon China?

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« Reply #4 on: October 15, 2012, 09:22:57 AM »

First of all, glad that you have an interest in Orthodoxy, May God enlighten and have mercy on us all!

I suggest reading "Orthodoxy and the Religion of the Future" by: Father Seraphim Rose when you have a stronger grip on Orthodoxy. Its a real eye opener. Father Seraphim touches on the subject of the Charismatic Movement and strongly warns against it.
http://www.amazon.com/Orthodoxy-Religion-Future-Seraphim-Rose/dp/188790400X



I live in Hong Kong. I do not think I can buy this book here! Cry

Not even on Amazon or Amazon China?




I've go to and checked the website of Amazon China. I cannot found in this book.

Actually, What's wrong with speak in tongue, slain in spirit? Where do the charismatic pastors get the power and make the people fall down the floor, even without touching them?
« Last Edit: October 15, 2012, 09:24:07 AM by walter1234 » Logged
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« Reply #5 on: October 15, 2012, 09:38:16 AM »

First of all, glad that you have an interest in Orthodoxy, May God enlighten and have mercy on us all!

I suggest reading "Orthodoxy and the Religion of the Future" by: Father Seraphim Rose when you have a stronger grip on Orthodoxy. Its a real eye opener. Father Seraphim touches on the subject of the Charismatic Movement and strongly warns against it.
http://www.amazon.com/Orthodoxy-Religion-Future-Seraphim-Rose/dp/188790400X



I live in Hong Kong. I do not think I can buy this book here! Cry

Not even on Amazon or Amazon China?




I've go to and checked the website of Amazon China. I cannot found in this book.

Actually, What's wrong with speak in tongue, slain in spirit? Where do the charismatic pastors get the power and make the people fall down the floor, even without touching them?
Can God be the author of such disorder?
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« Reply #6 on: October 15, 2012, 09:55:47 AM »

First of all, glad that you have an interest in Orthodoxy, May God enlighten and have mercy on us all!

I suggest reading "Orthodoxy and the Religion of the Future" by: Father Seraphim Rose when you have a stronger grip on Orthodoxy. Its a real eye opener. Father Seraphim touches on the subject of the Charismatic Movement and strongly warns against it.
http://www.amazon.com/Orthodoxy-Religion-Future-Seraphim-Rose/dp/188790400X



I live in Hong Kong. I do not think I can buy this book here! Cry

Not even on Amazon or Amazon China?




I've go to and checked the website of Amazon China. I cannot found in this book.

Actually, What's wrong with speak in tongue, slain in spirit? Where do the charismatic pastors get the power and make the people fall down the floor, even without touching them?

Please forgive me if I offend you but from my understanding, this type of worship is unorthodox and not something that would have been (or should be) identified as Christian forms of worship. Its more closer to pagan worship than it is to Christian. I think that the fall to the floor type of Charismatic "healings" are actually false illusions and are human induced forms of ecstasy. At many times, these types of worship can be spiritual dangerous. While there could be some form of grace from the Holy Spirit in other Christians denominations and religions, the purpose of this grace is always to lead souls to the Holy Orthodox Church.  
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walter1234
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« Reply #7 on: October 15, 2012, 10:09:41 AM »

Quote

how about speak in tongue(e.g tongue worship, tongue prayer) ??
« Last Edit: October 15, 2012, 10:19:57 AM by walter1234 » Logged
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« Reply #8 on: October 15, 2012, 10:19:15 AM »

Why can they do so? Where do they get this power?

When whipped up into an ecstatic frenzy and expected to act a certain way, humans tend to act a certain way.
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« Reply #9 on: October 15, 2012, 10:25:26 AM »


Glossolalia (speaking in tongues) was a gift to the Apostles in which they spoke all the languages of the world it was not what you see in modern-day Pentecostal churches. Their gift was the ability to speak other languages that they couldnt speak before, not the ability to speak gibberish  Smiley.
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« Reply #10 on: October 15, 2012, 10:29:37 AM »


Glossolalia (speaking in tongues) was a gift to the Apostles in which they spoke all the languages of the world it was not what you see in modern-day Pentecostal churches. Their gift was the ability to speak other languages that they couldnt speak before, not the ability to speak gibberish  Smiley.


I think you mean Xenoglossia.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2012, 10:29:46 AM by NicholasMyra » Logged

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« Reply #11 on: October 15, 2012, 10:34:22 AM »


Glossolalia (speaking in tongues) was a gift to the Apostles in which they spoke all the languages of the world it was not what you see in modern-day Pentecostal churches. Their gift was the ability to speak other languages that they couldnt speak before, not the ability to speak gibberish  Smiley.
1Cor14:2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

1Cor14:14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.


The Pentecostal and Charismatic Church use 1 Cor 14:2  to prove that  it is an unknown tongue which no man can understand what they say without the gift of interpretation.  They also use 1 Cor 14:14 to prove speak in tongue is another form of prayer,e.g. using our spirit to pray. It draw us closer to God.

Any comment about it?
« Last Edit: October 15, 2012, 10:34:50 AM by walter1234 » Logged
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« Reply #12 on: October 15, 2012, 10:45:26 AM »

While Orthodox Christians would reject cessationism, an informed skepticism concerning many of the phenomena related to the modern tongues and signs movements originating in the 20th century U. S. (now global) has much to commend it. Here are a few thoughts on this topic from an earlier discussion that might be of interest.

...We Orthodox are not cessationists, of course, by any stretch of the imagination, however there is still reason for caution about much of what derives from charismatic and pentecostal trajectories stemming from the Azusa Street incident at the turn of the 20th century in the considered opinion of many scholarly investigators in a manner in which I am personally fairly sympathetic to...

The modern tongues movement essentially began 7:00 p.m. on New Year's Eve of the year 1900, and mushroomed due to a series of newspaper articles that were initially more interested in the fact that blacks and whites were having tiny joint services (which didn't last long -major branches, e.g. the Assembly of God denomination, initially began as little more than a continuation of the same movement by those who wanted whites only, a sordid origin which AOG formally repented of as a denomination not very long ago) which articles brought crowds of gawkers, and which crowds brought even more reporters to comment on the gawkers(!), which increased all the more as reports of "strange happenings" circulated... (I can recount the full history in much more depth, but won't go into all of it all for present purposes). Stranger things have surely worked the works of God, though, so what's the problem?

The first thing which strikes me as dubious is this. When the turn-of-the-twentieth-century Azusa street revival -the origin of the modern tongues movement- began, all the participants believed they had received the gift of speaking in other languages that would usher in the last day revival specifically in the form of being able to preach the Gospel to all the nations which was to take place before the end of all ends. Accordingly, many of the original Pentecostals sold possessions etc. in order to travel by sea and by air, to many foreign countries, fully believing that when they spoke in tongues their hearers would supernaturally hear the Gospel. When that expectation did not materialize (oops!), and only at that time, the chastened and to a tragic extent travel-weary movement as a whole adopted the "standard" interpretation (i.e. the soon-to-be "traditional" interpretation) that the gift they had received must be some kind of angelic language, or some kind of prayer language no person but God really understands. So what's the problem?

That modern tongues speaking probably isn't a language of any kind -angelic or human- was fairly well confirmed by a massive 5 year long multi-national linguistic analysis of tongue speakers from different cultures and language groups which confirmed not only that the tongues being spoken in the movement did not correspond to any known language, but, further, that the specific manner that people "spoke in tongues" was in accordance with the phonemes (basic vocalizations) which occurred in a given speaker's native language! The "heavenly language's" origin seemed to be of the earth, not just of the earth, but regional earth locations, varying very specifically by limitation to the specific language sounds known from birth by the given tongues speaker, varying according to one's native language and place of residence (for further details cf. addendum below).

I. Howard Marshall, commenting on the skepticism-inducing nature of the exhaustive linguistic studies, nevertheless pointed to an example of a Marxist revolutionary and atheist known to Marshall who was converted to Christ after hearing his own daughter speak in a language that he had mastered, but that -he knew- his daughter was unable to speak. Marshall felt this case too convincing for him personally to discount despite the movement as a whole being still, well, entirely unconvincing to him (note, despite Marshall showing no bias for cessationism). To sum up, I have never thought scriptural arguments for cessationism by Protestant cessationists are even remotely convincing, however the nature of the phenomena in question themselves when placed under closer scrutiny (not to mention ancillary issues like heretical Sabellianism/monarchial modalism espoused by millions of pentecostals, e.g. United Pentecostal International et al, God wants you rich if you donate to me theology, sociological studies concerning an abysmal lack of fruitbearing, just to name a few reservations) and... well... just color me deeply skeptical of mostly the whole movement for now while being anything but a cessationist personally.


313 Azusa Street, AD 1900 -from whence the entire modern tongues movement sprang All major modern trajectories descend historically from this location/event.
__________
Addendum from the Wiki article on Glossolalia

Quote
Substantial scientific studies have been published that provide an objective description of the linguistics of glossolalic speech and the neural behaviour of the speakers.

Linguistics of Pentecostal glossolalia

William J. Samarin, a linguist from the University of Toronto, published a thorough assessment of Pentecostal glossolalia that became a classic work on its linguistic characteristics.[5] His assessment was based on a large sample of glossolalia recorded in public and private Christian meetings in Italy, Holland, Jamaica, Canada and the USA over the course of five years; his wide range included the Puerto Ricans of the Bronx, the Snake Handlers of the Appalachians, and Russian Molokan in Los Angeles.

Samarin found that glossolalic speech does resemble human language in some respects. The speaker uses accent, rhythm, intonation and pauses to break up the speech into distinct units. Each unit is itself made up of syllables, the syllables being formed from consonants and vowels taken from a language known to the speaker.

It is verbal behavior that consists of using a certain number of consonants and vowels[...]in a limited number of syllables that in turn are organized into larger units that are taken apart and rearranged pseudogrammatically[...]with variations in pitch, volume, speed and intensity.[6]

[Glossolalia] consists of strings of syllables, made up of sounds taken from all those that the speaker knows, put together more or less haphazardly but emerging nevertheless as word-like and sentence-like units because of realistic, language-like rhythm and melody.[7]

That the sounds are taken from the set of sounds already known to the speaker is confirmed by others: Felicitas Goodman found that the speech of glossolalists reflected the patterns of speech of the speaker's native language.[8]

Samarin found that the resemblance to human language was merely on the surface, and so concluded that glossolalia is "only a facade of language".[9] He reached this conclusion because the syllable string did not form words, the stream of speech was not internally organised, and– most importantly of all– there was no systematic relationship between units of speech and concepts. Humans use language to communicate, but glossolalia does not. Therefore he concluded that glossolalia is not "a specimen of human language because it is neither internally organized nor systematically related to the world man perceives".[9]

On the basis of his linguistic analysis, Samarin defined Pentecostal glossolalia as "meaningless but phonologically structured human utterance, believed by the speaker to be a real language but bearing no systematic resemblance to any natural language, living or dead".[10]

Practitioners of glossolalia may disagree with linguistic researchers and claim that they are speaking human languages (xenoglossia). For example Ralph Harris, in the work Spoken By the Spirit published by Radiant Life/GPH in 1973, describes seventy five occasions when glossolalic speech was understood by others. (Scientific research into such claims is documented in the article on xenoglossia.)
[edit] Comparative linguistics

Felicitas Goodman, a psychological anthropologist and linguist, studied a number of Pentecostal communities in the United States, Caribbean and Mexico; these included English, Spanish and Mayan speaking groups. She compared what she found with recordings of non-Christian rituals from Africa, Borneo, Indonesia and Japan. She took into account both the segmental structure (such as sounds, syllables, phrases) and the supra-segmental elements (rhythm, accent, intonation), and concluded that there was no distinction between what was practiced by the Pentecostal Protestants and the followers of other religions.[11]

Neuroscience

In 2006, the brains of a group of individuals were scanned while they were speaking in tongues. Activity in the language centers of the brain decreased, while activity in the emotional centers of the brain increased. Activity in the area of control decreased, which corresponds with the reported experience of loss of control. There were no changes in any language areas, suggesting that glossolalia is not associated with usual language function.[12][13][14] Other brain wave studies have also found that brain activity alters in glossolalia.[15]
Scientific explanation

Attempts to explain these physical and psychological from a scientific perspective have been suggested, including mental illness, hypnosis, and learned behaviour...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glossolalia#Neuroscience[/size]
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« Reply #13 on: October 15, 2012, 10:45:39 AM »


Glossolalia (speaking in tongues) was a gift to the Apostles in which they spoke all the languages of the world it was not what you see in modern-day Pentecostal churches. Their gift was the ability to speak other languages that they couldnt speak before, not the ability to speak gibberish  Smiley.
1Cor14:2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

1Cor14:14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.


The Pentecostal and Charismatic Church use 1 Cor 14:2  to prove that  it is an unknown tongue which no man can understand what they say without the gift of interpretation.  They also use 1 Cor 14:14 to prove speak in tongue is another form of prayer,e.g. using our spirit to pray. It draw us closer to God.

Any comment about it?


I found these links for you:
http://oca.org/questions/teaching/speaking-in-tongues-miracles
http://www.orthodoxresearchinstitute.org/articles/misc/nicozisin_tongues.htm
http://www.suscopts.org/messages/lectures/pneumlecture4.pdf
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« Reply #14 on: October 15, 2012, 10:47:23 AM »

From this article: http://www.suscopts.org/messages/lectures/pneumlecture4.pdf

In a nutshell
1. The true gift of speaking in tongues is when someone speaks a language that is understood by those
who hear him as mentioned in (Acts 2:1-13).
2. When someone speaks a language among people who do not understand it, then another gift, the gift
of translation of this language into the language of the people, is ne cessary. Without this translation,
the foreign language is considered babbling.
3. This gift was not given for the Church forever, but only in the beginning of Christianity in order to
awaken the pagans and Jews to believe the Holy Gospel. Thus, St. Paul said that this gift would cease
to exist (1 Cor 13:8 )
7. Not all Christians are required to receive this gift  (1 Cor 12:29,30) and consequently it is not a sign
of salvation as the Pentecostals claim.
8. This gift is intended as a sign for unbelievers (1 Cor 14:22) therefore, we as believers no longer have
need of this gift.
9. From the beginning of Christianity this gift was considered among the lesser gifts in the Church,
while the others, such as that of prophecy, interpretation of Holy Scriptures, love and the rest, were
much greater.
10. It is totally out of the question for speaking in tongues, as a gift of the Holy Spirit, to mean a delirium
in a non-existent and incomprehensible language for this comes into clear contradiction with the Holy
Book of Acts and brings to memory the convulsive ways of idol worshiper.
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« Reply #15 on: October 15, 2012, 02:21:40 PM »

The Pentecostal and Charismatic Church use 1 Cor 14:2  to prove that  it is an unknown tongue which no man can understand what they say without the gift of interpretation.

Do you mean Church Slavonic?
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« Reply #16 on: October 15, 2012, 03:23:25 PM »

The Pentecostal and Charismatic Church use 1 Cor 14:2  to prove that  it is an unknown tongue which no man can understand what they say without the gift of interpretation.

Do you mean Church Slavonic?

No, I mean the Pentecostal and Charismatic Church. Two of the denomination in Protestant who engage in praying more to holy spirit, speak in tongue, slain in holy spirit , healing , casting our demons, seeking more power of God, seeking more gift of holy spirit, etc.
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« Reply #17 on: October 15, 2012, 03:45:54 PM »

The Pentecostal and Charismatic Church use 1 Cor 14:2  to prove that  it is an unknown tongue which no man can understand what they say without the gift of interpretation.

Do you mean Church Slavonic?

 laugh No he means Greek!
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« Reply #18 on: October 15, 2012, 04:26:46 PM »

Ive only heard someone speak in tongues in person once in my life. I was about 3 ft away from the person. I didnt know what to make of it. Although Protestant, I didnt grow up in a charismatic tradition. Ive been curious about these topics, but always sort of brushed them off.  We can dig into the scriptures and argue over who is right or wrong, but the fact that cant be disputed is that the OVERWHELMING majority of Christians in the world do not do these things.  History shows they never have.  As for the people who do it today... it is not my place to judge. 

As a recent Orthodox convert, it has been interesting to read what you all who know way more than me have had to say on the subject.
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« Reply #19 on: October 15, 2012, 04:48:09 PM »

I don't really want to sound mean, but this has always seemed like a sideshow.
Of course, it's really much easier to speak in tongues to prove that you are a good Christian than it is to actually do the hard work on yourself and your sins, and live with humility, kindness and integrity, loving God and other people.
Not to say that charismatics don't do all that, but isn't it a distraction from our real work?
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« Reply #20 on: October 15, 2012, 05:30:26 PM »

michal kalina was joking.
in some churches, people still use old languages when repeating well known parts of the service that most people don't understand.
one example is in the russian orthodox church, where they use 'church slavonic' (very old type of russian) instead of proper russian.
he is suggesting that this is just as useful as speaking in tongues (that is; not useful).

i have written a 3 page reply to the original post!
i will spare you by summarising it (yes, this is the short version!), but if anyone wants to know more about my experience, please let me know.

i thank the other posters for distinguishing between xenoglossia and glossolalia, which are very diffferent.

when i used to do glossolalia (and i think it is the same for many protestant Christians who do it), it was an expression of love for God, and it replaced using the mind to pray. it was an elaborate type of moaning and groaning. for me, it was a sort of baby babble; an extension of how many small children pretend to talk, long before they know more than one or two meaningful words.

i started using glossolalia at the age of 6, soon after becoming Christian; my parents having converted from atheism shortly before. as i grew older and wanted to copy other people in the church, i started to pray like them. this was a conscious effort; it does not come ‘by itself’ despite how much people may insist that it does.

but because the learnt baby babble (glossolalia) was similar to my spontaneous childhood baby babble, i reasoned that this must therefore be a gift from God.
i always knew there was no strong theology to support it; just experience, but i did not want to doubt my experience. i believed like this until i became orthodox, which is when i changed this view.

soon after i joined the orthodox church, i realised that the ecstatic baby babble i had been using for prayer was completely insufficient to express my closer and more beautiful relationship with God. within a few months it had disappeared, replaced by a regular disciplined prayer time, using set prayers to lead the way into spontaneous prayers.
i found my emotions soon came into line with my rythmical, regular, structured prayer life and i became much calmer, but also more deeply happy.

the baby babble was replaced with a deep secure love which was confidently able to express itself in normal language; i am convinced that the best way to know God is through the teaching and life of the orthodox church.

i don’t just believe this because of my own experience, but because the theology of the church makes sense, and because i have seen the faithful witness of our dear church fathers and teacher who have gone before us; leaving a good pattern to imitate.
surely this is what is meant by hebrews 13:7 ‘remember those who rule over you, who have spoken the word of God to you, whose faith follow, considering the outcome of their conduct’.

so, in summary, i think there are 3 types of ‘speaking in tongues’.

1. baby babble.
this a bit like in romans 8:26: ‘…the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered’. it is used by small children and also by adults in times of deep emotional stress. this verse is often used as the Biblical basis for glossolalia, but there is no evidence in church history that it was ever interpreted this way by the early church.
it should not always be assumed that baby babble (moanings and groanings) is false and lacking in spirituality, but the baby babble does usually (in charismatic settings) lead to…

2. glossolalia.
as defined by the other posters above – made up repeated syllables copied from others that is sometimes a genuine expression of a relationship with God and sometimes just deceit.

3. xenoglossia.
again as defined above – the ability to understand or speak in a language not learnt. this is usually spiritual, and can be a gift of God or from the other side.
as 1 corinthians 14:33 explains: ‘God is not the author of confusion but of peace…’ so this is not something we should especially crave, as saint paul explains, but instead we should desire love (1 corinthians 13) and not be full of pride (1 timothy 6:4).
then, after our lives are more pure and we leave anger, bitterness and the love of money and become full of righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience and gentleness (1 timothy 6:11), God may choose to allow us to experience xenoglossia, as then we will remain humble and realise it is only a sign of His love, not of our greatness.

so we should not actively seek xenoglossia, and certainly not glossolalia, but rather we should ‘not become sluggish (lazy), but imitate those who through faith and patience inherit the promises’ (hebrews 6:12); in other words our church fathers who have handed down the Christian faith to us and whose life stories we know from history.

as for being 'slain in the spirit', it is a similar emotional experience that is sometimes linked to a genuine religious experience, (often mixed with some hysteria) and sometimes completely lacking in spiritual use. i have experienced both types.

for those who have experienced these things, i want to point out that orthodoxy teaches something deeper and more beautiful, so you will loose nothing in coming to the orthodox church. for those who want only to laugh at the emotionally delicate, i want to point out that you never know how much is genuine, so it is unwise to judge. it is wise to stay away from it yourself, but labeling all charismatics as hysterical and fake will not help them to understand how to have a deeper relationship with God.

may God guide us and protect us, and glory be to God forever.
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« Reply #21 on: October 17, 2012, 06:22:28 AM »

Some Pentecostal churches teach that a person is not "saved" unless he or she speaks in tongues. With such pressure upon you, some people may very well be faking it in order to be accepted and seen as "saved". I've heard people speak in tongues before and I know that I could fake it if I wanted to (although I wouldn't).

I went to a Roman Catholic charismatic Mass many years ago, and two men prayed over me. One of them kept repeating "Allahu Akbar" (Arabic for "God is great") for a while.

I have also heard that one of the signs of demonic possession, according to the Roman Catholic Church, is being able to speak a language that one has never learned. If you've seen The Exorcism of Emily Rose then you'll know what I mean.
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« Reply #22 on: October 17, 2012, 07:19:10 AM »

Quote


Any comment on these videos?
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« Reply #23 on: October 17, 2012, 09:30:48 AM »

I come from Charismatic Church. I've go to some charismatic churches, some conferences and see some pastors can really make people falling down the flooe by worshiping and singing with a song. Some pastors can do so by breathing on the people.

How do Orthodox Christians understand of slain in spirit , speak in tongue?? Why can they do so? Where do they get this power?

They do not have any power. It is fake and nonsense.
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« Reply #24 on: October 17, 2012, 09:44:43 AM »

I come from Charismatic Church. I've go to some charismatic churches, some conferences and see some pastors can really make people falling down the flooe by worshiping and singing with a song. Some pastors can do so by breathing on the people.

How do Orthodox Christians understand of slain in spirit , speak in tongue?? Why can they do so? Where do they get this power?

They do not have any power. It is fake and nonsense.

Yup. It's called "mass hysteria". What they do is a form of mass hypnosis, whipping up people's emotions into a frenzy, which then allows many of them to experience what is expected of them. It's messing with their psyche.
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« Reply #25 on: October 17, 2012, 10:11:06 AM »

Some Pentecostal churches teach that a person is not "saved" unless he or she speaks in tongues. With such pressure upon you, some people may very well be faking it in order to be accepted and seen as "saved". I've heard people speak in tongues before and I know that I could fake it if I wanted to (although I wouldn't).

I went to a Roman Catholic charismatic Mass many years ago, and two men prayed over me. One of them kept repeating "Allahu Akbar" (Arabic for "God is great") for a while.

I have also heard that one of the signs of demonic possession, according to the Roman Catholic Church, is being able to speak a language that one has never learned. If you've seen The Exorcism of Emily Rose then you'll know what I mean.

Actually, Glossolalia (the ability to speak gibberish or speak in tongues as Pentecostals call it) is one of the signs that the Ethiopian Orthodox Church looks for when someone is possessed.   
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« Reply #26 on: October 17, 2012, 02:21:18 PM »

I wamt to ask one question. If my question give offence to anybody here . Please Forgive me!

Quote


I found one priest in Ethiopian Orthodox Church. It seems that this priest performed many miracles quite similar to what today's Charismatic and Pentecostla Church always perform, like healing, Exorcist,etc.

What is the difference the miracle that this Orthodox priest(e.g Memehir Girma ) performs and the miracles that Charismatic and pentecostal Church leader( like Benny Hinn , Bill Johnson, Todd Bentley,e.g) perform?

How can we identify which miracles is come from God , which is come from demon?
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« Reply #27 on: October 17, 2012, 02:39:12 PM »

I come from Charismatic Church. I've go to some charismatic churches, some conferences and see some pastors can really make people falling down the flooe by worshiping and singing with a song. Some pastors can do so by breathing on the people.

How do Orthodox Christians understand of slain in spirit , speak in tongue?? Why can they do so? Where do they get this power?

"Where do they get this power"~~~~~~~~~~~the  D E V I L !
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« Reply #28 on: October 17, 2012, 03:38:46 PM »

I wamt to ask one question. If my question give offence to anybody here . Please Forgive me!

Quote


I found one priest in Ethiopian Orthodox Church. It seems that this priest performed many miracles quite similar to what today's Charismatic and Pentecostla Church always perform, like healing, Exorcist,etc.

What is the difference the miracle that this Orthodox priest(e.g Memehir Girma ) performs and the miracles that Charismatic and pentecostal Church leader( like Benny Hinn , Bill Johnson, Todd Bentley,e.g) perform?

How can we identify which miracles is come from God , which is come from demon?

He's not the only Ethiopian priest who performs exorcisms in Ethiopia. In the rural areas of Ethiopia, exorcisms (the removal of evil spirits) is common (though usually not always as dramatic as depicted in Hollywood films or in Pentecostal performances). The difference is: the healings and sacraments administered in the Orthodox Church are administered by Orthodox priests (usually a Hieromonk or Monk-Priest) who validly have the grace of the office of the priesthood using the proper rites.

Btw, I dont really know what is happening in the videos or who this priest is?
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« Reply #29 on: October 17, 2012, 04:19:05 PM »

I wamt to ask one question. If my question give offence to anybody here . Please Forgive me!

Quote


I found one priest in Ethiopian Orthodox Church. It seems that this priest performed many miracles quite similar to what today's Charismatic and Pentecostla Church always perform, like healing, Exorcist,etc.

What is the difference the miracle that this Orthodox priest(e.g Memehir Girma ) performs and the miracles that Charismatic and pentecostal Church leader( like Benny Hinn , Bill Johnson, Todd Bentley,e.g) perform?

How can we identify which miracles is come from God , which is come from demon?

He's not the only Ethiopian priest who performs exorcisms in Ethiopia. In the rural areas of Ethiopia, exorcisms (the removal of evil spirits) is common (though usually not always as dramatic as depicted in Hollywood films or in Pentecostal performances). The difference is: the healings and sacraments administered in the Orthodox Church are administered by Orthodox priests (usually a Hieromonk or Monk-Priest) who validly have the grace of the office of the priesthood using the proper rites.

Btw, I dont really know what is happening in the videos or who this priest is?
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,47155.0.html

The miracle he performed is approved by the Ethiopian orthodox Church.

I don't know what happened as well. I have just post some questions on other thread and ask what has happened in the video.
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« Reply #30 on: October 19, 2012, 01:44:38 PM »

Many Pentecostal and Charismatic Church  teaches that we need to spend many time to be still in order to listen the Divine voice of Holy Spirit and wait the relevant of God every day. If the voice you hear and the revelation you get do not against the bible's teaching, it may be the voice and revelation of God. ( there is no unified teaching on Pentecostal and Charismatic Church about how to identify whether the voice and the revelent is come from GOd or not, most of them just teach that if the voice and revelations do not against teaching of bible, they may be come from God)


Many Christians in Pentecostal and Charismatic church claim that they hear the voice of Holy spirit, see the divine visions and dreams from God. Many of them claim that God show their future in vision and dreams and tell them what His future plan on them. Many Pentecostal and Charistmaic pastor claim that God tell him His will on the church that that pastor run through divine voice of God and vision, dreams from God. Some Pentecostal and Charismatic pastors encourage the Christians to be still first and listen how many money  God want you to donate for Church service before doing so. Some of them claim that they hear some special and new revelation about the interpretation of specific bible verse(s), etc

Any comment on this  phenomenon in Pentecostal and Charismatic Church?
« Last Edit: October 19, 2012, 01:50:40 PM by walter1234 » Logged
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« Reply #31 on: October 19, 2012, 02:12:16 PM »

Many Pentecostal and Charismatic Church  teaches that we need to spend many time to be still in order to listen the Divine voice of Holy Spirit and wait the relevant of God every day. If the voice you hear and the revelation you get do not against the bible's teaching, it may be the voice and revelation of God. ( there is no unified teaching on Pentecostal and Charismatic Church about how to identify whether the voice and the revelent is come from GOd or not, most of them just teach that if the voice and revelations do not against teaching of bible, they may be come from God)


Many Christians in Pentecostal and Charismatic church claim that they hear the voice of Holy spirit, see the divine visions and dreams from God. Many of them claim that God show their future in vision and dreams and tell them what His future plan on them. Many Pentecostal and Charistmaic pastor claim that God tell him His will on the church that that pastor run through divine voice of God and vision, dreams from God. Some Pentecostal and Charismatic pastors encourage the Christians to be still first and listen how many money  God want you to donate for Church service before doing so. Some of them claim that they hear some special and new revelation about the interpretation of specific bible verse(s), etc

Any comment on this  phenomenon in Pentecostal and Charismatic Church?
There is in Orthodoxy a phenomenon we call prelest. Basically, prelest is spiritual delusion, which has led to many shipwrecked lives. It's one of the devil's many ploys to try to get Christians' lives off course.
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« Reply #32 on: October 19, 2012, 03:11:48 PM »

Many Pentecostal and Charismatic Church  teaches that we need to spend many time to be still in order to listen the Divine voice of Holy Spirit and wait the relevant of God every day. If the voice you hear and the revelation you get do not against the bible's teaching, it may be the voice and revelation of God. ( there is no unified teaching on Pentecostal and Charismatic Church about how to identify whether the voice and the revelent is come from GOd or not, most of them just teach that if the voice and revelations do not against teaching of bible, they may be come from God)


Many Christians in Pentecostal and Charismatic church claim that they hear the voice of Holy spirit, see the divine visions and dreams from God. Many of them claim that God show their future in vision and dreams and tell them what His future plan on them. Many Pentecostal and Charistmaic pastor claim that God tell him His will on the church that that pastor run through divine voice of God and vision, dreams from God. Some Pentecostal and Charismatic pastors encourage the Christians to be still first and listen how many money  God want you to donate for Church service before doing so. Some of them claim that they hear some special and new revelation about the interpretation of specific bible verse(s), etc

Any comment on this  phenomenon in Pentecostal and Charismatic Church?
There is in Orthodoxy a phenomenon we call prelest. Basically, prelest is spiritual delusion, which has led to many shipwrecked lives. It's one of the devil's many ploys to try to get Christians' lives off course.
Quite a lot of pentecostal and Charismatic Church even teach that if you hear and see a voice/picture which come out from your mind during praying, and that voice/picture does not contradict with the teaching of bible, it may be the voice and vision of God.  (But the Penecostal and Charismatic church never have a unified teaching on how to test whether that voice is come from God or not. Most of them just teach that a christian can identify whether the vision/voice is come from God or not if we a pray more and practice more on hearing the voice of God. )
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« Reply #33 on: November 13, 2012, 08:58:58 AM »

1.How do Orthodox Christian understand the gift of ' speak in tongue'? What is the function of this gift?

2.Is there any Orthodox Christian who  TRUELY has the gift of 'speak in tongue'  ? Is there any REAL manifestation of ' speak in tongue'  in Orthodox Church?
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« Reply #34 on: November 13, 2012, 09:42:36 AM »

1.How do Orthodox Christian understand the gift of ' speak in tongue'? What is the function of this gift?
We generally understand it as the gift of being able to speak in languages unlearned or to be understood by others despite not speaking their language. This is the gift of tongues from Pentecost, not the weird glossolalia of the modern charismatic revival.

Quote
2.Is there any Orthodox Christian who  TRUELY has the gift of 'speak in tongue'  ? Is there any REAL manifestation of ' speak in tongue'  in Orthodox Church?
It seems to be rare, but it does exist. I remember hearing a story about a Greek elder (Elder Porphyrios, I think) who spoke to a French woman in Greek. He spoke no French, she spoke no Greek and yet she understood him.

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« Reply #35 on: November 13, 2012, 10:14:52 AM »

Quote

1 Corinthians chapter 14

14.For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.
 
15.What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.


The Pentecostal and Charimatic Church always claim that speak in tongue is another form of prayer( e.g pray with the spirit)  with the support of the quoted bible verse(e.g 1 Corinthian 14:14).

Does Orthodoxy agree that  a man can pray ( with his spirit)  through the REAL gift of speak in tongue?
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« Reply #36 on: November 13, 2012, 12:47:37 PM »

A overly simplified answer would be sort of, but it's usually considered wordless and is expressed internally and not externally, this is very very very rare though maybe 1 person in a whole generation of people
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« Reply #37 on: November 13, 2012, 02:49:56 PM »

Quote
1 Corinthians chapter 14
 
15.I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.
 

The pentecostal and charismatic church (also my church) always claim that every Christian can speak in tongue, and have to pray with unknown tongue by the above quoted Scripture.

They say that in 1 Corinthian 14:15, Paul asked us that when we pray to God, we should/have to pray with spirit and pray with the understand also.  Thus,Praying with spirit(e.g pray with unknown tongue/ pray with the gift of speaking in tongue) and praying with understand(e.g. praying with the language we can understand ) are also important when we offer our prayers And because of it, every Christian can speak in tongue.

Do you think their interpretation on 1 Corinthian 14:15 is correct? How should I argue with them?
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« Reply #38 on: November 13, 2012, 03:00:21 PM »

Quote
1 Corinthians chapter 14
 
15.I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.
 

The pentecostal and charismatic church (also my church) always claim that every Christian can speak in tongue, and have to pray with unknown tongue by the above quoted Scripture.

They say that in 1 Corinthian 14:15, Paul asked us that when we pray to God, we should/have to pray with spirit and also pray with the understand .  Thus,Pray with the unknown tongue and pray with understand(e.g. pray with the language we can understand ) is also important when we offer our prayers And because of it, every Christian can speak in tongue.

Do you think their interpretation on 1 Corinthian 14:15 is correct? How should I argue with them?

Some pentecostal and Christmatic church, including my church ivide speak in tongue into grace and gift.

'Grace" of unknown tongue is only used for prayer, but the unknown tongue cannot be interpreted by the the gift of xenoglossia. This is grace , so it belong to all Christians.

Gift of unknown Tongue that the unknown tongue which speak the message/word of God. This unknown tongue can be and have to be interpreted by the  the the gift of xenoglossia.This is gift , so only certain choosen Christian can be given by Holy spirit.

Is this bible interpretation correct? How to argue with the peers,pastors,etc in my Church if they talk about it?
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« Reply #39 on: November 13, 2012, 03:03:06 PM »

Greek Original:

1Co 14:2 GNT - "ὁ γὰρ λαλῶν γλώσσῃ οὐκ ἀνθρώποις λαλεῖ, ἀλλὰ τῷ Θεῷ· οὐδεὶς γὰρ ἀκούει, πνεύματι δὲ λαλεῖ μυστήρια·"

" ἀκούει" means "hear" not "understand". What the Apostle wrote is that "no man hears him", that is, this "tongue" is a language that is silent. How different from the noisy charismatic.

The Orthodox speaks this tongue even today, it is the Incessant Prayer of the Heart, when the very essence of the soul prays and not only the mouth. Just as we read in Songs "even in my sleep I prayed". St. Paul calls us to learn this "tongue" when he tells to "pray without ceasing". This is not merely speaking prayers all the time, but to become such a servant of God, that our very soul lights up in flames of continuous prayer.

Even the older English translations acknowledge that:

"And he that spekith in tunge, spekith not to men, but to God; for no man herith. But the spirit spekith mysteries." [Wycliffe - 1395]

"For he that speaketh with toges speaketh not vnto men but vnto god for no man heareth him how be it in the sprete he speaketh misteries." [Tyndale - 1526]

"For he yt speaketh with tunges, speaketh not vnto men, but vnto God: for no man heareth him. Howbeit in ye sprete he speaketh misteries." [Miles Coverdale Bible - 1535]

"For he that speaketh with the tongue, speaketh not vnto men, but vnto God: For no man heareth [hym]. Howbeit, in the spirite he speaketh misteries." [Bishop's Bible - 1568]






1Cor14:2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

1Cor14:14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.


The Pentecostal and Charismatic Church use 1 Cor 14:2  to prove that  it is an unknown tongue which no man can understand what they say without the gift of interpretation.  They also use 1 Cor 14:14 to prove speak in tongue is another form of prayer,e.g. using our spirit to pray. It draw us closer to God.

Any comment about it?

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« Reply #40 on: November 13, 2012, 03:42:10 PM »

Walter I don't know if it would be the best idea to "argue" with anyone over this subject, I don't believe that will be very productive, better I think to speak to these people the truth about such things once or twice and if they don't want to hear it distance yourself from them but still treat them with compassion and love.  Remember there were times when even Jesus had to step back get in the boat and sail away.
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« Reply #41 on: November 13, 2012, 04:10:57 PM »

i have sent you the 3 page document i wrote about it as a reply to your personal message.
may God bless u and give u wisdom.
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« Reply #42 on: November 13, 2012, 04:14:04 PM »

i have sent you the 3 page document i wrote about it as a reply to your personal message.
may God bless u and give u wisdom.

Any chance I could get a copy?Huhangel
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« Reply #43 on: November 13, 2012, 04:15:58 PM »

sure. it is 100% my opinion with no references, so not so exciting. anyone else who wants one pls send personal message to not waste space on this thread.
i forgot to say, fabio leite, your greek lesson was very welcome and interesting.
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« Reply #44 on: November 13, 2012, 08:49:37 PM »

Greek Original:

1Co 14:2 GNT - "ὁ γὰρ λαλῶν γλώσσῃ οὐκ ἀνθρώποις λαλεῖ, ἀλλὰ τῷ Θεῷ· οὐδεὶς γὰρ ἀκούει, πνεύματι δὲ λαλεῖ μυστήρια·"

" ἀκούει" means "hear" not "understand". What the Apostle wrote is that "no man hears him", that is, this "tongue" is a language that is silent. How different from the noisy charismatic.

The Orthodox speaks this tongue even today, it is the Incessant Prayer of the Heart, when the very essence of the soul prays and not only the mouth. Just as we read in Songs "even in my sleep I prayed". St. Paul calls us to learn this "tongue" when he tells to "pray without ceasing". This is not merely speaking prayers all the time, but to become such a servant of God, that our very soul lights up in flames of continuous prayer.

Even the older English translations acknowledge that:

"And he that spekith in tunge, spekith not to men, but to God; for no man herith. But the spirit spekith mysteries." [Wycliffe - 1395]

"For he that speaketh with toges speaketh not vnto men but vnto god for no man heareth him how be it in the sprete he speaketh misteries." [Tyndale - 1526]

"For he yt speaketh with tunges, speaketh not vnto men, but vnto God: for no man heareth him. Howbeit in ye sprete he speaketh misteries." [Miles Coverdale Bible - 1535]

"For he that speaketh with the tongue, speaketh not vnto men, but vnto God: For no man heareth [hym]. Howbeit, in the spirite he speaketh misteries." [Bishop's Bible - 1568]






1Cor14:2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

1Cor14:14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.


The Pentecostal and Charismatic Church use 1 Cor 14:2  to prove that  it is an unknown tongue which no man can understand what they say without the gift of interpretation.  They also use 1 Cor 14:14 to prove speak in tongue is another form of prayer,e.g. using our spirit to pray. It draw us closer to God.

Any comment about it?

I wish I could follow your posts like twitter.
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