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Author Topic: "My God, My God..."  (Read 1266 times) Average Rating: 0
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andrewlya
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« on: October 14, 2012, 08:28:18 PM »

Dear Brothers and Sisters, how do you interpret the following, what did Jesus mean when He cried out on the cross, "My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?" (Matthew 27:46, Psalm 22:1).

Of course, God the Father would not leave His Son. Why did Jesus feel or think that way?

Thank you very much.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2012, 08:39:09 PM by andrewlya » Logged

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« Reply #1 on: October 14, 2012, 09:34:28 PM »

I'm interested in this as well after it came up in class recently.

All I can offer is agreement that the Father didn't leave the Son - doing so would either divide Christ or divide the Trinity.
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« Reply #2 on: October 14, 2012, 09:46:08 PM »

As the Son of Man, the Lord said this. Just as He tasted death, so also abandonment in suffering.
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« Reply #3 on: October 14, 2012, 09:48:51 PM »

Jesus is fulfilling the Psalm that was written many years previous.

It wasn't the only psalm quoted, and everyone there, particularly the rabbis would know exactly what he was referencing.
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« Reply #4 on: October 14, 2012, 09:54:12 PM »

Jesus is fulfilling the Psalm that was written many years previous.

It wasn't the only psalm quoted, and everyone there, particularly the rabbis would know exactly what he was referencing.

This.
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« Reply #5 on: October 14, 2012, 09:57:17 PM »

Jesus is fulfilling the Psalm that was written many years previous.

It wasn't the only psalm quoted, and everyone there, particularly the rabbis would know exactly what he was referencing.

My professor mentioned this point but emphasized that he thinks it unsatisfying to say that Christ was merely saying the Psalm (almost like a checklist of to-say/do things) rather than truly meaning it as well.
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« Reply #6 on: October 14, 2012, 10:06:59 PM »

Jesus is fulfilling the Psalm that was written many years previous.

It wasn't the only psalm quoted, and everyone there, particularly the rabbis would know exactly what he was referencing.

My professor mentioned this point but emphasized that he thinks it unsatisfying to say that Christ was merely saying the Psalm (almost like a checklist of to-say/do things) rather than truly meaning it as well.

He meant it in that He was fulfilling the prophetic meanings of the Psalms.

Otherwise, it's a shame he's unsatisfied.  Wink
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« Reply #7 on: October 14, 2012, 10:25:39 PM »

Christ became sin and curse on the cross, thus experiencing distance from God even though he was consubstantial with God.

IMO.

Christ is of same essence with the Father, he is not the same hypostasis or something.
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« Reply #8 on: October 14, 2012, 10:41:30 PM »

Jesus is fulfilling the Psalm that was written many years previous.

It wasn't the only psalm quoted, and everyone there, particularly the rabbis would know exactly what he was referencing.

My professor mentioned this point but emphasized that he thinks it unsatisfying to say that Christ was merely saying the Psalm (almost like a checklist of to-say/do things) rather than truly meaning it as well.

He meant it in that He was fulfilling the prophetic meanings of the Psalms.

Otherwise, it's a shame he's unsatisfied.  Wink

Which includes being forsaken by God.

This way to excuse the text is thin.
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« Reply #9 on: October 14, 2012, 11:04:58 PM »

I thought that the prophecy was intended to be recognizable to the people who saw it fulfilled. To anyone watching, it did look like God had forsaken Him. Combined with Christ quoting the psalm, the witnesses could realize what was taking place.
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« Reply #10 on: October 14, 2012, 11:09:09 PM »

I thought that the prophecy was intended to be recognizable to the people who saw it fulfilled. To anyone watching, it did look like God had forsaken Him. Combined with Christ quoting the psalm, the witnesses could realize what was taking place.

And the fact that in the Psalm those words are spoken by the lyrical "I" and are the only lines quoted by Christ.

You should probably take that whole forsaken bit a little more seriously. Especially given the fact it has caused such interpretative consternation for most Christians, it is probably something that might just have "really" occurred.

Sorta embarrassing for the impassible / consubstantial crowd.
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« Reply #11 on: October 14, 2012, 11:22:19 PM »

I thought that the prophecy was intended to be recognizable to the people who saw it fulfilled. To anyone watching, it did look like God had forsaken Him. Combined with Christ quoting the psalm, the witnesses could realize what was taking place.

And the fact that in the Psalm those words are spoken by the lyrical "I" and are the only lines quoted by Christ.

You should probably take that whole forsaken bit a little more seriously. Especially given the fact it has caused such interpretative consternation for most Christians, it is probably something that might just have "really" occurred.

Sorta embarrassing for the impassible / consubstantial crowd.

I've read that Jews identified psalms by their first lines, so quoting the first line would indicate the psalm as a whole.

As far as it being in the first person... I know I had some trouble with a lot of Old Testament statements attributed to God. According to my priest, these were human attributes given to God that were more in line with how people perceived Him, more than His actual motives. The Israelites could only have their minds blown so much at one time, and although the authors were inspired, they were still products of their culture. So maybe this psalm is similar to all of the other first person statements.
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« Reply #12 on: October 14, 2012, 11:26:49 PM »

I thought that the prophecy was intended to be recognizable to the people who saw it fulfilled. To anyone watching, it did look like God had forsaken Him. Combined with Christ quoting the psalm, the witnesses could realize what was taking place.

And the fact that in the Psalm those words are spoken by the lyrical "I" and are the only lines quoted by Christ.

You should probably take that whole forsaken bit a little more seriously. Especially given the fact it has caused such interpretative consternation for most Christians, it is probably something that might just have "really" occurred.

Sorta embarrassing for the impassible / consubstantial crowd.

I've read that Jews identified psalms by their first lines, so quoting the first line would indicate the psalm as a whole.

As far as it being in the first person... I know I had some trouble with a lot of Old Testament statements attributed to God. According to my priest, these were human attributes given to God that were more in line with how people perceived Him, more than His actual motives. The Israelites could only have their minds blown so much at one time, and although the authors were inspired, they were still products of their culture. So maybe this psalm is similar to all of the other first person statements.

OK most basic point here is this:

People argue Christ wasn't really forsaken, rather he was making an allusion to a "messianic psalm" to educate those around Him. Well, part of that prophetic messianic psalm is that the person is forsaken.

You don't get out of the problem by jumping to the end of the story.
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« Reply #13 on: October 14, 2012, 11:38:26 PM »

I thought that the prophecy was intended to be recognizable to the people who saw it fulfilled. To anyone watching, it did look like God had forsaken Him. Combined with Christ quoting the psalm, the witnesses could realize what was taking place.

And the fact that in the Psalm those words are spoken by the lyrical "I" and are the only lines quoted by Christ.

You should probably take that whole forsaken bit a little more seriously. Especially given the fact it has caused such interpretative consternation for most Christians, it is probably something that might just have "really" occurred.

Sorta embarrassing for the impassible / consubstantial crowd.

I've read that Jews identified psalms by their first lines, so quoting the first line would indicate the psalm as a whole.

As far as it being in the first person... I know I had some trouble with a lot of Old Testament statements attributed to God. According to my priest, these were human attributes given to God that were more in line with how people perceived Him, more than His actual motives. The Israelites could only have their minds blown so much at one time, and although the authors were inspired, they were still products of their culture. So maybe this psalm is similar to all of the other first person statements.

OK most basic point here is this:

People argue Christ wasn't really forsaken, rather he was making an allusion to a "messianic psalm" to educate those around Him. Well, part of that prophetic messianic psalm is that the person is forsaken.

You don't get out of the problem by jumping to the end of the story.

Couldn't you say that the psalmist merely felt forsaken, rather than actually was so?
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« Reply #14 on: October 15, 2012, 02:07:59 AM »

The way I heard it, Christ was forsaken in the sense that His Father did not intervene and rescue Him from what He was enduring, but rather allowed Him to suffer.
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« Reply #15 on: October 15, 2012, 02:12:09 AM »

And it's that simple.
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« Reply #16 on: October 15, 2012, 02:20:46 AM »

"God has been murdered...O strange murder, strange crime!" - St. Melito of Sardis

"That which He has not assumed, He has not healed..." - St. Gregory of Nazianzus

I love the story about the drowning scorpion and despite humanity's sting, Christ would redeem humanity from the entanglement of death becase that is His nature.

What if God abandoned God?
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« Reply #17 on: October 15, 2012, 02:28:30 AM »

What if God abandoned God?

Well if you mean "Divinity abandoned Divinity", that would be silly, as natures can't abandon something.

If you mean God [the Father] abandoned God [the Father], what does that have to do with the Son?

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« Reply #18 on: October 15, 2012, 03:35:53 AM »

What if God abandoned God?

Well if you mean "Divinity abandoned Divinity", that would be silly, as natures can't abandon something.

If you mean God [the Father] abandoned God [the Father], what does that have to do with the Son?


What Christ is questioning is not the existence, nor the power, nor the ability, but the seeming silence of the One addressed as "My God." As Raymond Brown said, this unrelenting silence, Christ is so isolated and estranged that He no longer uses "Father" language by speaks as the humblest servant.

This is the first time ever that Christ does not address God by "Father" but as "My God". But all his cry brings out is the silence of God. The remaining conclusion to that psalm is that He did not really feel abandoned, however we must interpret that saying of Christ in His situation and not of the psalmist. It needs to be read in light of the life of Christ, but that's not to deny the prophecy either.

As you question, Is the Father separated from the Son? Is their communion broken, even if it be for a single moment? These aren't easy questions but they have to be answered because at its core, it is who Christ really is.

Two questions then, why was Christ been abandoned by the Father? And how would it be possible for such an abandonment to take place?

The first question is at the fall of Man. Man, because of sin, is in a state of separation from God, or better is abandoned by Him. As St. Cyril said "We had become accursed through Adam's transgression and had fallen into the trap of death, abandoned by God." (source) Note here this isn't neglect from God but is on the sin of man, for it was man that caused the abandonment to happen, however God has not forgotten.

Like the quote I posted of St. Gregory, whatever has not been united to the limitless, infinite, perfect, divine Son of God, cannot be made perfect, infinite and limitless. This is indicative of the energies of God that are communicated through the Incarnation. If Christ did not take to Himself flesh and become a real man, then humanity could not be saved. Things like the mind, body, emotions, etc could not be healed had Christ not assumed.

So in order to bring man back into union with God, to overcome that abandonment, Christ would need to take upon Himself the abandonment of humanity.

And again according to St. Cyril, the limitless Son of God would need to be indescribably become the abandoned; He who was united to the Father from before all ages would need to become forsaken so that He could undo our abandonment by His obedience and complete submission. For only then coujld our abandonment be assumed, sanctified, and restored into life united with God. St. Cyril is quick to point out that this cry from Christ of abandonment, came from humanity which was abandoned by His divinity should be seen as madness and blasphemy. However, as I'll address the second question, the divinity of Christ is an inseparable union with His humanity. Again from St. Cyril, he says that every act involves the soul and body together. Now before the OO's on this board lash at me for trying to separate two natures, however they come together to constitue a new condition by their union without compromising the integrity of either nature. But by uniting the to His humanity, in the Person of Christ, He may experience abandonment in His flesh, but not as God nor merely as a man but as the one God-enfleshed person of Christ.

So as God, the Son cannot possibly be abandoned, for He is in perfect union with the Father, however by uniting to His humanity, in the person of Christ, the son may experience abandonment in His flesh (just like Christ can feel pain, suffering, anguish, tears, etc). Eventhough God cannot be abandoned, God-enfleshed can be. The Son of God who became man was literally abandoned on the cross by the One He called Father. Abandoned by man, nature and God. He felt within Him the severing of an indissoulouble bond. This was an exclamation of an incomprehensible truth. But this wasn't the end here, because what was not possible before the Incarnation, became possible after it. By assuming the human condition, by becoming one of the abandoned, by enduring loneliness and anguish and by tasting seperation from God in a way that we can never imagine nor describe, Christ assumed, overcame and sanctified our abandonment. He brought together an impossible chasm, bringing man once more into unity with God. That cry on the cross was like an explosion of suffering in love. What may seem as the indescribable division in the life of God is actually the delcaration of unity. In this moment of abandoment Christ identifies Himself with the will of His Forsaker, and in doing so reveals the love of God for man, the very revelation of the Father HImself. By emptying Himself, he gives humanity a glimpse into the intimate life of God.

It isn't a cry of despair.

And I'm done being an pseudo armchair theologian for tonight. I know the word "God-man" rubs people the wrong way on this board, so maybe God-enfleshed suffices, or maybe it doesn't. But you are extremely bright and I'm sure you understand what I'm saying. Waiting for Severian, Salpy or mina's rebuttal to my seperation of natures. police

tl;dr version is, man was abandoned from God, and for Christ to restore the unity with God, he had to assume abandonment. In a sense to heal it.
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« Reply #19 on: October 15, 2012, 04:58:08 AM »

Some people say this sentencte( My God , MY God, Why you foresake me) is come from Palsm 22:1. Palsm 22:3-21 is the prophetic sentences about the suffering of Christ before he died . THe palsm 22:24 state clearly that God did not abandon the one who is in suffering, , e.g.Jesus, but listen his cry.

And some people also use 2 Cor 5:19 to claim that God did not leave Jesus on cross . In 2 Cor 5:19, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself . Thus,God did not abondon Jesus and sepatated with Jesus when God reconciled the world to himself on cross.

Also , it is impossible that Trinity God split -up and separate with each other

Jesus beared all our sin and all the sufferings which come from sin on cross.He even become sin for us. And Sin make him feel that Father alienated with him. That's why he feel father abandon him, just like us. In fact, God did not do so.

Again , it is all about the skill of interpretation and how to interpret the bible verse. THe idea of sola scriptural is really not good.
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« Reply #20 on: October 15, 2012, 07:57:39 AM »

If I'm remembering correctly, in this podcast Fr Thomas Hopko explains that the Greek word here "abandoned" is used in only one other place in the Old Testament, where it is translated "leave": Genesis 2:24 "Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and they shall become one flesh." (NKJV)

Father Thomas continues (excerpt from transcript of podcast at same source):
Quote
So you can dare to say that when Jesus is hanging on the Cross, and he cries with a loud voice, “Eli, eli, lama sabachthani—My God, my God, why have you abandoned me?” we could imagine that God the Father answers him. We can be bold enough and dare to imagine that God the Father would answer him and say to him, “My Son, my beloved, my chosen, you know why I must abandon you on the Cross. I must abandon you so that you can go and cleave unto your wife and become one flesh with her.”

It's worth reading the entire transcript or listening to the podcast.
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« Reply #21 on: October 15, 2012, 09:00:34 AM »

I thought that the prophecy was intended to be recognizable to the people who saw it fulfilled. To anyone watching, it did look like God had forsaken Him. Combined with Christ quoting the psalm, the witnesses could realize what was taking place.

And the fact that in the Psalm those words are spoken by the lyrical "I" and are the only lines quoted by Christ.

You should probably take that whole forsaken bit a little more seriously. Especially given the fact it has caused such interpretative consternation for most Christians, it is probably something that might just have "really" occurred.

Sorta embarrassing for the impassible / consubstantial crowd.

I've read that Jews identified psalms by their first lines, so quoting the first line would indicate the psalm as a whole.

As far as it being in the first person... I know I had some trouble with a lot of Old Testament statements attributed to God. According to my priest, these were human attributes given to God that were more in line with how people perceived Him, more than His actual motives. The Israelites could only have their minds blown so much at one time, and although the authors were inspired, they were still products of their culture. So maybe this psalm is similar to all of the other first person statements.

Which scripture/Psalm are you all referring to? Can I have a reference so I could read,please?
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« Reply #22 on: October 15, 2012, 09:45:43 AM »

It appears that it's hard to precisely interpret this verse. There's a simple answer to this.
Ill have to do more research on this.
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« Reply #23 on: October 15, 2012, 10:21:56 AM »

Which scripture/Psalm are you all referring to? Can I have a reference so I could read,please?

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalm+22&version=NKJV
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« Reply #24 on: October 15, 2012, 11:34:20 AM »

Which scripture/Psalm are you all referring to? Can I have a reference so I could read,please?

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalm+22&version=NKJV

Thank you very much.
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« Reply #25 on: October 15, 2012, 02:30:44 PM »

Dear Brothers and Sisters, how do you interpret the following, what did Jesus mean when He cried out on the cross, "My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?" (Matthew 27:46, Psalm 22:1).

Of course, God the Father would not leave His Son. Why did Jesus feel or think that way?

Thank you very much.


Some say he was reciting a Jewish prayer from the psalms and that instead He showed his faithfulness.
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« Reply #26 on: October 15, 2012, 04:56:21 PM »

I thought that the prophecy was intended to be recognizable to the people who saw it fulfilled. To anyone watching, it did look like God had forsaken Him. Combined with Christ quoting the psalm, the witnesses could realize what was taking place.

And the fact that in the Psalm those words are spoken by the lyrical "I" and are the only lines quoted by Christ.

You should probably take that whole forsaken bit a little more seriously. Especially given the fact it has caused such interpretative consternation for most Christians, it is probably something that might just have "really" occurred.

Sorta embarrassing for the impassible / consubstantial crowd.

I've read that Jews identified psalms by their first lines, so quoting the first line would indicate the psalm as a whole.

As far as it being in the first person... I know I had some trouble with a lot of Old Testament statements attributed to God. According to my priest, these were human attributes given to God that were more in line with how people perceived Him, more than His actual motives. The Israelites could only have their minds blown so much at one time, and although the authors were inspired, they were still products of their culture. So maybe this psalm is similar to all of the other first person statements.

OK most basic point here is this:

People argue Christ wasn't really forsaken, rather he was making an allusion to a "messianic psalm" to educate those around Him. Well, part of that prophetic messianic psalm is that the person is forsaken.

You don't get out of the problem by jumping to the end of the story.

Couldn't you say that the psalmist merely felt forsaken, rather than actually was so?

This is a great question but on that could open the can of Trinitarian and Christological worms which Achronos seemed to jump on.

There are other cans of less than edible fauna to be opened as well with that question.

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« Reply #27 on: October 15, 2012, 05:42:27 PM »

On great and Holy Friday there is a hymn which speaks of the sun darkening itself and the earth quaking, creation expressing the pain of the Creator on the Cross.  The Creator quoting the Psalmist is expressing the pain of creation.
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« Reply #28 on: October 15, 2012, 06:56:02 PM »

On great and Holy Friday there is a hymn which speaks of the sun darkening itself and the earth quaking, creation expressing the pain of the Creator on the Cross.  The Creator quoting the Psalmist is expressing the pain of creation.

That's good.
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« Reply #29 on: October 15, 2012, 09:28:43 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Christ became sin and curse on the cross, thus experiencing distance from God even though he was consubstantial with God.

IMO.

Christ is of same essence with the Father, he is not the same hypostasis or something.

I like this.  The Fathers prefer to use the language of "suffering in His Flesh" and what is the suffering which in the flesh also experience? Our biological reaction to our spiritual feelings.  Our bodies chemically and physically experience all of our feelings and spiritual realities.  When Christ in His Flesh experienced Death, I don't know if I could say that He was actually distanced from God as we are when we sin, however surely we can say that  He somehow experienced the feelings of this human reality as the Fathers say, in His Flesh. 

In the Book of Henok, when the devils asked God why He is so lenient to human sin when He is not to theirs, He replied that essentially it is because being human (i.e. physical) is more complicated than just being a spirit.

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #30 on: October 15, 2012, 09:51:25 PM »

Habte,

Good thoughts.

In the Synoptics, the name "God" refers pretty much exclusively to the Father.

So Christ is not saying, "my Divinity, my Divinity" or "my Divine Nature, my Divine Nature", but is referring to his relationship to God (the Father).

We believe that what is not assumed is not healed, which produces a dilemma: If Christ has to be sinless to save us from Death, how can he assume the disease of sinfulness itself in order to heal it?

The solution is the Cross, upon which, instead of *having* sin, he actually *becomes* sin and curse. So he can experience the reality borne by the sinful to the ultimate extent, while having no sin.

"Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us—for it is written, 'CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO HANGS ON A TREE..."

And,

"As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life."

We recall that the image of the curse of serpents was the very thing that lifted the curse of serpents from the Hebrews.

In the crucifixion, the Icon of God humbles himself and becomes the Icon of Curse itself, hanging upon the Cross! How about that.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2012, 09:55:29 PM by NicholasMyra » Logged

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« Reply #31 on: October 15, 2012, 10:03:21 PM »

Look at the responce of the people, they did not think Jesus was saying that God had forsaken him, but that he was calling Elijah. Also look at the end of hte psalm

31 And to him my soul shall live: and my seed shall serve him. 32 There shall be declared to the Lord a generation to come: and the heavens shall show forth his justice to a people that shall be born, which the Lord has made.

The point in this quotation is to show that Jesus will be vindicated by God the father and he certaintly was in his ressurection.
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Thank you.
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