Author Topic: Septuagint ?  (Read 1310 times)

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Offline walter1234

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Septuagint ?
« on: November 18, 2012, 09:01:07 AM »
As what I know, for the old testament, Orthodox Church would use the "Septuagint"  .

Septuagint is the translation of Scriptures from Hebrew languages to Greek languages. Why would Orthodox think that  Septuagint is more accurate than other Hebrew bible version ?

I hear that Septuagint is the bible version which Jesus and His disciples use. How do you know it?
« Last Edit: November 18, 2012, 09:03:42 AM by walter1234 »

Offline Cyrillic

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Re: Septuagint ?
« Reply #1 on: November 18, 2012, 09:03:22 AM »
I hear that Septuagint is the bible version which Jesus and His disciples use. How do you know it?

Because that's the version that's quoted in almost all instances the OT is used in the NT.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2012, 09:03:42 AM by Cyrillic »
At nunc desertis cessant sacraria lucis:
aurum omnes victa iam pietate colunt.
-Propertius, Elegies III.XIII:47-48

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Offline walter1234

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Re: Septuagint ?
« Reply #2 on: November 18, 2012, 09:12:46 AM »
I hear that Septuagint is the bible version which Jesus and His disciples use. How do you know it?

Because that's the version that's quoted in almost all instances the OT is used in the NT.

You mean that when the disciples of Christ write the letter to Church, they often quote some verses in old testaments in their letter. All old testament verses that they quoted are come from Septuagint. Isn't it?
« Last Edit: November 18, 2012, 09:13:40 AM by walter1234 »

Offline Cyrillic

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Re: Septuagint ?
« Reply #3 on: November 18, 2012, 09:21:38 AM »
See for yourself:


Hebrews 10:5 (KJV): Sacrifice and offering Thou wouldest not, but a body hast Thou prepared me

Hebrews 10:5 (Greek): θυσίαν καὶ προσφορὰν οὐκ ἠθέλησας, σῶμα δὲ κατηρτίσω μοι·

Psalm 40:6 (KJV - From the Hebrew MT): Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire; mine ears hast thou opened:

Psalm 40:6 (Septuagint - Greek): θυσίαν καὶ προσφορὰν οὐκ ἠθέλησας, σῶμα δὲ κατηρτίσω μοι

Psalm 40:6 (Septuagint - English; own translation): Sacrifices and offerings You didn't desire, a body You have prepared for me.

Which version do you think the apostles used. The Hebrew MT or the Septuagint?
« Last Edit: November 18, 2012, 09:24:46 AM by Cyrillic »
At nunc desertis cessant sacraria lucis:
aurum omnes victa iam pietate colunt.
-Propertius, Elegies III.XIII:47-48

νίκας τοῖς Βασιλεῦσι κατὰ βαρβάρων δωρούμενος

Offline walter1234

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Re: Septuagint ?
« Reply #4 on: November 18, 2012, 09:46:10 AM »
See for yourself:


Hebrews 10:5 (KJV): Sacrifice and offering Thou wouldest not, but a body hast Thou prepared me

Hebrews 10:5 (Greek): θυσίαν καὶ προσφορὰν οὐκ ἠθέλησας, σῶμα δὲ κατηρτίσω μοι·

Psalm 40:6 (KJV - From the Hebrew MT): Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire; mine ears hast thou opened:

Psalm 40:6 (Septuagint - Greek): θυσίαν καὶ προσφορὰν οὐκ ἠθέλησας, σῶμα δὲ κατηρτίσω μοι

Psalm 40:6 (Septuagint - English; own translation): Sacrifices and offerings You didn't desire, a body You have prepared for me.

Which version do you think the apostles used. The Hebrew MT or the Septuagint?
I see!

Offline izrima

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Re: Septuagint ?
« Reply #5 on: November 18, 2012, 05:09:09 PM »
If I remember correctly from a podcast I listened to on this topic--I think it was by Fr. Tom Hopko or Fr. Andrew Stephen Damick--Protestants wanted to use the Hebrew translations because they assumed it was closer to the source, when in reality the Hebrew translations they used were settled and agreed upon by Jewish leaders relatively late in history, like around the 11th or 12th century, whereas the Septuagint Greek works are actually much older.

Offline Cyrillic

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Re: Septuagint ?
« Reply #6 on: November 18, 2012, 05:11:51 PM »
If I remember correctly from a podcast I listened to on this topic--I think it was by Fr. Tom Hopko or Fr. Andrew Stephen Damick--Protestants wanted to use the Hebrew translations because they assumed it was closer to the source, when in reality the Hebrew translations they used were settled and agreed upon by Jewish leaders relatively late in history, like around the 11th or 12th century, whereas the Septuagint Greek works are actually much older.

Correct.
At nunc desertis cessant sacraria lucis:
aurum omnes victa iam pietate colunt.
-Propertius, Elegies III.XIII:47-48

νίκας τοῖς Βασιλεῦσι κατὰ βαρβάρων δωρούμενος

Offline walter1234

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Re: Septuagint ?
« Reply #7 on: November 18, 2012, 05:14:22 PM »
How about Dead Sea Scrolls?this is the oldest Hebrew Scriptures we found.

Offline Cyrillic

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Re: Septuagint ?
« Reply #8 on: November 18, 2012, 05:19:16 PM »
How about Dead Sea Scrolls?this is the oldest Hebrew Scriptures we found.

Very fragmentary and it often agrees with the Septuagint over the MT.
At nunc desertis cessant sacraria lucis:
aurum omnes victa iam pietate colunt.
-Propertius, Elegies III.XIII:47-48

νίκας τοῖς Βασιλεῦσι κατὰ βαρβάρων δωρούμενος

Offline Azul

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Re: Septuagint ?
« Reply #9 on: November 18, 2012, 05:23:59 PM »
See for yourself:


Hebrews 10:5 (KJV): Sacrifice and offering Thou wouldest not, but a body hast Thou prepared me

Hebrews 10:5 (Greek): θυσίαν καὶ προσφορὰν οὐκ ἠθέλησας, σῶμα δὲ κατηρτίσω μοι·

Psalm 40:6 (KJV - From the Hebrew MT): Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire; mine ears hast thou opened:

Psalm 40:6 (Septuagint - Greek): θυσίαν καὶ προσφορὰν οὐκ ἠθέλησας, σῶμα δὲ κατηρτίσω μοι

Psalm 40:6 (Septuagint - English; own translation): Sacrifices and offerings You didn't desire, a body You have prepared for me.

Which version do you think the apostles used. The Hebrew MT or the Septuagint?

The Apostles were Jews.. The Jewish Midrash which can still be observed in the Talmud uses verses in the context of an interpretation adding thus the words of interpretation in the verses.
Every formula of every religion has in this age of reason, to submit to the acid test of reason and universal assent.
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Offline Cyrillic

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Re: Septuagint ?
« Reply #10 on: November 18, 2012, 05:30:24 PM »

The Apostles were Jews.

So what? The vast majority of the Jews of the first century used the Septuagint.
At nunc desertis cessant sacraria lucis:
aurum omnes victa iam pietate colunt.
-Propertius, Elegies III.XIII:47-48

νίκας τοῖς Βασιλεῦσι κατὰ βαρβάρων δωρούμενος

Offline Azul

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Re: Septuagint ?
« Reply #11 on: November 18, 2012, 05:49:22 PM »

The Apostles were Jews.

So what? The vast majority of the Jews of the first century used the Septuagint.

Apparently the Jews who translated the septuagint translated only the Torah/Pentateuch(the first five books of the Bible which are ascribed to Moses).. The rest of the books were translated in the following houndreds of years, even on the times or Christians and by early Christians themselves apparently..
Every formula of every religion has in this age of reason, to submit to the acid test of reason and universal assent.
Mahatma Gandhi

Offline Cyrillic

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Re: Septuagint ?
« Reply #12 on: November 18, 2012, 05:51:02 PM »

The Apostles were Jews.

So what? The vast majority of the Jews of the first century used the Septuagint.

Apparently the Jews who translated the septuagint translated only the Torah/Pentateuch(the first five books of the Bible which are ascribed to Moses).. The rest of the books were translated in the following houndreds of years, even on the times or Christians and by early Christians themselves apparently..

Apparently not, seeing that many of the other books are quoted in their Septuagint version in the NT.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2012, 05:51:16 PM by Cyrillic »
At nunc desertis cessant sacraria lucis:
aurum omnes victa iam pietate colunt.
-Propertius, Elegies III.XIII:47-48

νίκας τοῖς Βασιλεῦσι κατὰ βαρβάρων δωρούμενος

Offline Gamliel

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Re: Septuagint ?
« Reply #13 on: November 18, 2012, 05:55:30 PM »
The pendulum swings back and forth between the LXX and MT. One really cannot say if one or the other is older.

Offline Azul

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Re: Septuagint ?
« Reply #14 on: November 18, 2012, 05:59:04 PM »

The Apostles were Jews.

So what? The vast majority of the Jews of the first century used the Septuagint.

Apparently the Jews who translated the septuagint translated only the Torah/Pentateuch(the first five books of the Bible which are ascribed to Moses).. The rest of the books were translated in the following houndreds of years, even on the times or Christians and by early Christians themselves apparently..

Apparently not, seeing that many of the other books are quoted in their Septuagint version in the NT.

huh? in whose version?
Every formula of every religion has in this age of reason, to submit to the acid test of reason and universal assent.
Mahatma Gandhi

Offline Cyrillic

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Re: Septuagint ?
« Reply #15 on: November 18, 2012, 06:00:34 PM »

The Apostles were Jews.

So what? The vast majority of the Jews of the first century used the Septuagint.

Apparently the Jews who translated the septuagint translated only the Torah/Pentateuch(the first five books of the Bible which are ascribed to Moses).. The rest of the books were translated in the following houndreds of years, even on the times or Christians and by early Christians themselves apparently..

Apparently not, seeing that many of the other books are quoted in their Septuagint version in the NT.

huh? in whose version?

Did you see my comparisation of Psalm 40:6 and Hebrews 10:5?
At nunc desertis cessant sacraria lucis:
aurum omnes victa iam pietate colunt.
-Propertius, Elegies III.XIII:47-48

νίκας τοῖς Βασιλεῦσι κατὰ βαρβάρων δωρούμενος

Offline Azul

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Re: Septuagint ?
« Reply #16 on: November 18, 2012, 06:08:07 PM »

The Apostles were Jews.

So what? The vast majority of the Jews of the first century used the Septuagint.

Apparently the Jews who translated the septuagint translated only the Torah/Pentateuch(the first five books of the Bible which are ascribed to Moses).. The rest of the books were translated in the following houndreds of years, even on the times or Christians and by early Christians themselves apparently..

Apparently not, seeing that many of the other books are quoted in their Septuagint version in the NT.

huh? in whose version?

Did you see my comparisation of Psalm 40:6 and Hebrews 10:5?

according to wiki :

The translation process of the Septuagint can be broken down into several distinct stages, during which the social milieu of the translators shifted from Hellenistic Judaism to Early Christianity. The translation began in the 3rd century BCE and was completed by 132 BCE,[17][18][19] initially in Alexandria, but in time elsewhere as well.

so the later Christians could of translate the OT after the Midrash of the writers of the New Testament.
Every formula of every religion has in this age of reason, to submit to the acid test of reason and universal assent.
Mahatma Gandhi

Offline Cyrillic

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Re: Septuagint ?
« Reply #17 on: November 18, 2012, 06:13:31 PM »

The Apostles were Jews.

So what? The vast majority of the Jews of the first century used the Septuagint.

Apparently the Jews who translated the septuagint translated only the Torah/Pentateuch(the first five books of the Bible which are ascribed to Moses).. The rest of the books were translated in the following houndreds of years, even on the times or Christians and by early Christians themselves apparently..

Apparently not, seeing that many of the other books are quoted in their Septuagint version in the NT.

huh? in whose version?

Did you see my comparisation of Psalm 40:6 and Hebrews 10:5?

according to wiki :

The translation process of the Septuagint can be broken down into several distinct stages, during which the social milieu of the translators shifted from Hellenistic Judaism to Early Christianity. The translation began in the 3rd century BCE and was completed by 132 BCE,[17][18][19] initially in Alexandria, but in time elsewhere as well.


132 BC is some 150 years before the time of the Apostles.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2012, 06:13:56 PM by Cyrillic »
At nunc desertis cessant sacraria lucis:
aurum omnes victa iam pietate colunt.
-Propertius, Elegies III.XIII:47-48

νίκας τοῖς Βασιλεῦσι κατὰ βαρβάρων δωρούμενος

Offline Azul

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Re: Septuagint ?
« Reply #18 on: November 18, 2012, 06:16:36 PM »

The Apostles were Jews.

So what? The vast majority of the Jews of the first century used the Septuagint.

Apparently the Jews who translated the septuagint translated only the Torah/Pentateuch(the first five books of the Bible which are ascribed to Moses).. The rest of the books were translated in the following houndreds of years, even on the times or Christians and by early Christians themselves apparently..

Apparently not, seeing that many of the other books are quoted in their Septuagint version in the NT.

huh? in whose version?

Did you see my comparisation of Psalm 40:6 and Hebrews 10:5?

according to wiki :

The translation process of the Septuagint can be broken down into several distinct stages, during which the social milieu of the translators shifted from Hellenistic Judaism to Early Christianity. The translation began in the 3rd century BCE and was completed by 132 BCE,[17][18][19] initially in Alexandria, but in time elsewhere as well.


132 BC is some 150 years before the time of the Apostles.

U missed the 1st part.

The translation process of the Septuagint can be broken down into several distinct stages, during which the social milieu of the translators shifted from Hellenistic Judaism to Early Christianity.
Every formula of every religion has in this age of reason, to submit to the acid test of reason and universal assent.
Mahatma Gandhi

Offline Cyrillic

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Re: Septuagint ?
« Reply #19 on: November 18, 2012, 06:24:23 PM »

The Apostles were Jews.

So what? The vast majority of the Jews of the first century used the Septuagint.

Apparently the Jews who translated the septuagint translated only the Torah/Pentateuch(the first five books of the Bible which are ascribed to Moses).. The rest of the books were translated in the following houndreds of years, even on the times or Christians and by early Christians themselves apparently..

Apparently not, seeing that many of the other books are quoted in their Septuagint version in the NT.

huh? in whose version?

Did you see my comparisation of Psalm 40:6 and Hebrews 10:5?

according to wiki :

The translation process of the Septuagint can be broken down into several distinct stages, during which the social milieu of the translators shifted from Hellenistic Judaism to Early Christianity. The translation began in the 3rd century BCE and was completed by 132 BCE,[17][18][19] initially in Alexandria, but in time elsewhere as well.


132 BC is some 150 years before the time of the Apostles.

U missed the 1st part.

The translation process of the Septuagint can be broken down into several distinct stages, during which the social milieu of the translators shifted from Hellenistic Judaism to Early Christianity.

Wikipedia isn't infallible, you know. Get better sources.
At nunc desertis cessant sacraria lucis:
aurum omnes victa iam pietate colunt.
-Propertius, Elegies III.XIII:47-48

νίκας τοῖς Βασιλεῦσι κατὰ βαρβάρων δωρούμενος

Offline Azul

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Re: Septuagint ?
« Reply #20 on: November 18, 2012, 06:33:53 PM »

The Apostles were Jews.

So what? The vast majority of the Jews of the first century used the Septuagint.

Apparently the Jews who translated the septuagint translated only the Torah/Pentateuch(the first five books of the Bible which are ascribed to Moses).. The rest of the books were translated in the following houndreds of years, even on the times or Christians and by early Christians themselves apparently..

Apparently not, seeing that many of the other books are quoted in their Septuagint version in the NT.

huh? in whose version?

Did you see my comparisation of Psalm 40:6 and Hebrews 10:5?

according to wiki :

The translation process of the Septuagint can be broken down into several distinct stages, during which the social milieu of the translators shifted from Hellenistic Judaism to Early Christianity. The translation began in the 3rd century BCE and was completed by 132 BCE,[17][18][19] initially in Alexandria, but in time elsewhere as well.


132 BC is some 150 years before the time of the Apostles.

U missed the 1st part.

The translation process of the Septuagint can be broken down into several distinct stages, during which the social milieu of the translators shifted from Hellenistic Judaism to Early Christianity.

Wikipedia isn't infallible, you know. Get better sources.

It's not my concern.

the thing is Jewish Midrash often merges two verses into one.. like f.e in Matt 1:22 and the passages of Heb..
Every formula of every religion has in this age of reason, to submit to the acid test of reason and universal assent.
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Offline genesisone

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Re: Septuagint ?
« Reply #21 on: November 18, 2012, 06:38:34 PM »

The Apostles were Jews.

So what? The vast majority of the Jews of the first century used the Septuagint.

Apparently the Jews who translated the septuagint translated only the Torah/Pentateuch(the first five books of the Bible which are ascribed to Moses).. The rest of the books were translated in the following houndreds of years, even on the times or Christians and by early Christians themselves apparently..

Apparently not, seeing that many of the other books are quoted in their Septuagint version in the NT.

huh? in whose version?

Did you see my comparisation of Psalm 40:6 and Hebrews 10:5?

according to wiki :

The translation process of the Septuagint can be broken down into several distinct stages, during which the social milieu of the translators shifted from Hellenistic Judaism to Early Christianity. The translation began in the 3rd century BCE and was completed by 132 BCE,[17][18][19] initially in Alexandria, but in time elsewhere as well.


132 BC is some 150 years before the time of the Apostles.

U missed the 1st part.

The translation process of the Septuagint can be broken down into several distinct stages, during which the social milieu of the translators shifted from Hellenistic Judaism to Early Christianity.
But the source you quoted says completed by 132 BCE. How do you get that to reconcile with Early Christianity?  ???

Offline Azul

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Re: Septuagint ?
« Reply #22 on: November 18, 2012, 06:43:42 PM »

The Apostles were Jews.

So what? The vast majority of the Jews of the first century used the Septuagint.

Apparently the Jews who translated the septuagint translated only the Torah/Pentateuch(the first five books of the Bible which are ascribed to Moses).. The rest of the books were translated in the following houndreds of years, even on the times or Christians and by early Christians themselves apparently..

Apparently not, seeing that many of the other books are quoted in their Septuagint version in the NT.

huh? in whose version?

Did you see my comparisation of Psalm 40:6 and Hebrews 10:5?

according to wiki :

The translation process of the Septuagint can be broken down into several distinct stages, during which the social milieu of the translators shifted from Hellenistic Judaism to Early Christianity. The translation began in the 3rd century BCE and was completed by 132 BCE,[17][18][19] initially in Alexandria, but in time elsewhere as well.


132 BC is some 150 years before the time of the Apostles.

U missed the 1st part.

The translation process of the Septuagint can be broken down into several distinct stages, during which the social milieu of the translators shifted from Hellenistic Judaism to Early Christianity.
But the source you quoted says completed by 132 BCE. How do you get that to reconcile with Early Christianity?  ???

the early post apostolic christians modified the text from the OT accordingly to the NT.

anyway the 70(72) apparently translated only the first five books of Moses.

why is the whole Greek OT considered so valuable than?
Every formula of every religion has in this age of reason, to submit to the acid test of reason and universal assent.
Mahatma Gandhi

Offline Cyrillic

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Re: Septuagint ?
« Reply #23 on: November 18, 2012, 07:01:19 PM »

The Apostles were Jews.

So what? The vast majority of the Jews of the first century used the Septuagint.

Apparently the Jews who translated the septuagint translated only the Torah/Pentateuch(the first five books of the Bible which are ascribed to Moses).. The rest of the books were translated in the following houndreds of years, even on the times or Christians and by early Christians themselves apparently..

Apparently not, seeing that many of the other books are quoted in their Septuagint version in the NT.

huh? in whose version?

Did you see my comparisation of Psalm 40:6 and Hebrews 10:5?

according to wiki :

The translation process of the Septuagint can be broken down into several distinct stages, during which the social milieu of the translators shifted from Hellenistic Judaism to Early Christianity. The translation began in the 3rd century BCE and was completed by 132 BCE,[17][18][19] initially in Alexandria, but in time elsewhere as well.


132 BC is some 150 years before the time of the Apostles.

U missed the 1st part.

The translation process of the Septuagint can be broken down into several distinct stages, during which the social milieu of the translators shifted from Hellenistic Judaism to Early Christianity.
But the source you quoted says completed by 132 BCE. How do you get that to reconcile with Early Christianity?  ???

the early post apostolic christians modified the text from the OT accordingly to the NT.


Dream on.
At nunc desertis cessant sacraria lucis:
aurum omnes victa iam pietate colunt.
-Propertius, Elegies III.XIII:47-48

νίκας τοῖς Βασιλεῦσι κατὰ βαρβάρων δωρούμενος

Offline Salpy

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Re: Septuagint ?
« Reply #24 on: November 18, 2012, 07:58:39 PM »
This site gives the quotes from both the Septuagint and the MT that are in the New Testament:

http://mysite.verizon.net/rgjones3/Septuagint/spindex.htm

Offline Randa

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Re: Septuagint ?
« Reply #25 on: November 19, 2012, 04:39:44 AM »
The Apostles were Jews.. The Jewish Midrash which can still be observed in the Talmud uses verses in the context of an interpretation adding thus the words of interpretation in the verses.

Correct.

Apparently the Jews who translated the septuagint translated only the Torah/Pentateuch(the first five books of the Bible which are ascribed to Moses).. The rest of the books were translated in the following houndreds of years, even on the times or Christians and by early Christians themselves apparently..

Yes that's true, the letter of Aristeas clearly states that the 72 Jerusalem scholars only translated the Torah. The rest of the books were translated later, some before Christ and some after.

Apparently not, seeing that many of the other books are quoted in their Septuagint version in the NT.

There are many that agree with other OT versions including the Masoretic text. Also "quote" is not the accurate term to use, to "quote" something means to copy the text word-for-word verbatim, there are very few instances of this in the NT, most the "quotes" are actually paraphrases. No one sat down writing their Gospel or Epistle with a text in front of them to copy from, they wrote down what the knew from memory, often paraphrasing the verse for clarification.

The pendulum swings back and forth between the LXX and MT. One really cannot say if one or the other is older.

Yes we can. The LXX is older, but it is a translation while the Masoretic text is not. What can't be said with absolute certainty is which one more accurately represents the original Hebrew autograph as both have errors. What Christian and Jewish apologists overlook but what textual critics take into consideration is the possibility that the LXX and MT were not translated/standardized from the same Hebrew text.

Wikipedia isn't infallible, you know. Get better sources.

How about the source Wikipedia is referring to:

Karen H. Jobes and Moises Silva (2001). Invitation to the Septuagint. Paternoster Press. ISBN 1-84227-061-3.

Life after death: a history of the afterlife in the religions of the West (2004), Anchor Bible Reference Library, Alan F. Segal, p.363

Gilles Dorival, Marguerite Harl, and Olivier Munnich, La Bible grecque des Septante: Du judaïsme hellénistique au christianisme ancien (Paris: Cerfs, 1988), p.111

"[...] die griechische Bibelübersetzung, die einem innerjüdischen Bedürfnis entsprang [...] [von den] Rabbinen zuerst gerühmt (..) Später jedoch, als manche ungenaue Übertragung des hebräischen Textes in der Septuaginta und Übersetzungsfehler die Grundlage für hellenistische Irrlehren abgaben, lehte man die Septuaginta ab." Verband der Deutschen Juden (Hrsg.), neu hrsg. von Walter Homolka, Walter Jacob, Tovia Ben Chorin: Die Lehren des Judentums nach den Quellen; München, Knesebeck, 1999, Bd.3, S. 43ff

It's not my concern.

the thing is Jewish Midrash often merges two verses into one.. like f.e in Matt 1:22 and the passages of Heb..

Again true.

the early post apostolic christians modified the text from the OT accordingly to the NT.

anyway the 70(72) apparently translated only the first five books of Moses.

why is the whole Greek OT considered so valuable than?

Yes now we're getting somewhere.

Dream on.

Sorry but that's actually true. The footnotes and side notes I've seen in some Greek manuscripts are enlightening to say the least. Also in most codices the NT is attached to the LXX and that says something right there because the Greek NT and LXX are supposed to be completely separate works. Polemics appears to the be chief reason for the "corrections" to both texts, though the Masoretic isn't free from this either and that's why my favourite OT version is the Peshitta OT because it doesn't have this polemical history behind it, it is a Jewish translation that was accepted by the Syriac Church and was used by both Jews and Christians.

This site gives the quotes from both the Septuagint and the MT that are in the New Testament:

http://mysite.verizon.net/rgjones3/Septuagint/spindex.htm

Now if only he would include all the other OT versions...

Offline psalm110

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Re: Septuagint ?
« Reply #26 on: November 19, 2012, 05:00:38 AM »
Ethiopian Jews still use the Septuagint.

Offline jmbejdl

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Re: Septuagint ?
« Reply #27 on: November 19, 2012, 05:15:55 AM »

The Apostles were Jews.

So what? The vast majority of the Jews of the first century used the Septuagint.

Apparently the Jews who translated the septuagint translated only the Torah/Pentateuch(the first five books of the Bible which are ascribed to Moses).. The rest of the books were translated in the following houndreds of years, even on the times or Christians and by early Christians themselves apparently..

Apparently not, seeing that many of the other books are quoted in their Septuagint version in the NT.

huh? in whose version?

Did you see my comparisation of Psalm 40:6 and Hebrews 10:5?

according to wiki :

The translation process of the Septuagint can be broken down into several distinct stages, during which the social milieu of the translators shifted from Hellenistic Judaism to Early Christianity. The translation began in the 3rd century BCE and was completed by 132 BCE,[17][18][19] initially in Alexandria, but in time elsewhere as well.


132 BC is some 150 years before the time of the Apostles.

U missed the 1st part.

The translation process of the Septuagint can be broken down into several distinct stages, during which the social milieu of the translators shifted from Hellenistic Judaism to Early Christianity.
But the source you quoted says completed by 132 BCE. How do you get that to reconcile with Early Christianity?  ???

the early post apostolic christians modified the text from the OT accordingly to the NT.

anyway the 70(72) apparently translated only the first five books of Moses.

why is the whole Greek OT considered so valuable than?

I believe that you misunderstand what BCE means. What you quoted says that the Septuagint translation was completed 132 years before Christ. If that's the case, and everything I've read suggests it is, then these were clearly Hellenised Jews and not early Christians - unless you believe that early Christians could travel in time.

James
We owe greater gratitude to those who humble us, wrong us, and douse us with venom, than to those who nurse us with honour and sweet words, or feed us with tasty food and confections, for bile is the best medicine for our soul. - Elder Paisios of Mount Athos

Offline psalm110

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Re: Septuagint ?
« Reply #28 on: November 19, 2012, 06:23:49 AM »
What hard evidence have we got the that the Tanakh was used in Greek before Christ, during and after Chriat ?.

Offline Kerdy

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Re: Septuagint ?
« Reply #29 on: November 19, 2012, 06:35:42 AM »
As what I know, for the old testament, Orthodox Church would use the "Septuagint"  .

Septuagint is the translation of Scriptures from Hebrew languages to Greek languages. Why would Orthodox think that  Septuagint is more accurate than other Hebrew bible version ?

I hear that Septuagint is the bible version which Jesus and His disciples use. How do you know it?

The oldest Septuagint is several hundred years older than the oldest Hebrew copy.

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Re: Septuagint ?
« Reply #30 on: November 19, 2012, 10:01:34 AM »
Yes that's true, the letter of Aristeas clearly states that the 72 Jerusalem scholars only translated the Torah. The rest of the books were translated later, some before Christ and some after

The letter of Pseudo-Aristeas is a forgery from later date.

Apparently not, seeing that many of the other books are quoted in their Septuagint version in the NT.

There are many that agree with other OT versions including the Masoretic text. Also "quote" is not the accurate term to use, to "quote" something means to copy the text word-for-word verbatim, there are very few instances of this in the NT, most the "quotes" are actually paraphrases. No one sat down writing their Gospel or Epistle with a text in front of them to copy from, they wrote down what the knew from memory, often paraphrasing the verse for clarification.[/quote]

Which they did from the Septuagint. The Septuagint is what was out there in the 1st century. Barely anyone could even read Hebrew, especially in the diaspora.


Yes we can. The LXX is older, but it is a translation while the Masoretic text is a pharisaic forgery.

Corrected it for you.

How about the source Wikipedia is referring to:

Karen H. Jobes and Moises Silva (2001). Invitation to the Septuagint. Paternoster Press. ISBN 1-84227-061-3.

Life after death: a history of the afterlife in the religions of the West (2004), Anchor Bible Reference Library, Alan F. Segal, p.363

Gilles Dorival, Marguerite Harl, and Olivier Munnich, La Bible grecque des Septante: Du judaïsme hellénistique au christianisme ancien (Paris: Cerfs, 1988), p.111

"[...] die griechische Bibelübersetzung, die einem innerjüdischen Bedürfnis entsprang [...] [von den] Rabbinen zuerst gerühmt (..)

Indeed.


the early post apostolic christians modified the text from the OT accordingly to the NT.

anyway the 70(72) apparently translated only the first five books of Moses.

why is the whole Greek OT considered so valuable than?

Yes now we're getting somewhere.

Into Jewry perhaps.

« Last Edit: November 19, 2012, 10:02:01 AM by Cyrillic »
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