OrthodoxChristianity.net
September 03, 2014, 01:26:13 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Ukrainian (or Ruthenian - you prefer) bishop visited ROCOR cathedral  (Read 1206 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
mike
Stratopedarches
**************
Offline Offline

Posts: 21,467


WWW
« on: October 11, 2012, 01:47:32 PM »

From the 28th September to the 10th October with the blessing of His Beatitude Metropolitan Volodymyr of Kyiv and All Ukraine, Archbishop Theodore of Mukachevo and Uzhgorod visited the shrine of San Francisco, California...
Logged

Byzantinism
no longer posting here
serb1389
Lord, remember me when you come into your Kingdom!
Global Moderator
Merarches
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Metropolis of San Francisco
Posts: 8,348


Michał Kalina's biggest fan

FrNPantic
WWW
« Reply #1 on: October 11, 2012, 06:55:29 PM »

did anyone ever come up with a Ukranian cheat sheet for OC.net? 

I always get so confused who's who, who's in communion, who's vagante, etc. etc. etc. 
Logged

I got nothing.
I forgot the maps
March 27th and May 30th 2010 were my Ordination dates, please forgive everything before that
podkarpatska
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ACROD
Posts: 8,245


SS Cyril and Methodius Church, Mercer, PA


WWW
« Reply #2 on: October 11, 2012, 08:23:04 PM »

I think that Archbishop Theodore is a Ukrainian rather than a Rusyn but I may be wrong. It's rather ironic in that the Greek Catholic Eparch of Muchachevo and Uzhorod is not Rusyn either - he is Slovak. Go figure....
Logged
Shanghaiski
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 7,970


Holy Trinity Church of Gergeti, Georgia


« Reply #3 on: October 11, 2012, 11:05:26 PM »

I think that Archbishop Theodore is a Ukrainian rather than a Rusyn but I may be wrong. It's rather ironic in that the Greek Catholic Eparch of Muchachevo and Uzhorod is not Rusyn either - he is Slovak. Go figure....

I thought most nationalist Ukrainians claimed that Carpatho-Rusyns/Ruthenians were actually Ukrainians. This was the opinion of one of my Ukrainian advisors, at least. She was Eastern Catholic, and had no trouble with the U-word.
Logged

Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,483



« Reply #4 on: October 12, 2012, 12:25:14 AM »

I think that Archbishop Theodore is a Ukrainian rather than a Rusyn but I may be wrong. It's rather ironic in that the Greek Catholic Eparch of Muchachevo and Uzhorod is not Rusyn either - he is Slovak. Go figure....

I thought most nationalist Ukrainians claimed that Carpatho-Rusyns/Ruthenians were actually Ukrainians. This was the opinion of one of my Ukrainian advisors, at least. She was Eastern Catholic, and had no trouble with the U-word.
Yes, a lot of Ukrainians look at (or rather, down on) CR/Ruthenians like Russian chavinists look down on Ukrainians.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2012, 12:25:48 AM by ialmisry » Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Benjamin the Red
Recovering Calvinist
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America, Diocese of Dallas and the South ||| American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Diocese
Posts: 1,601


Have mercy on me, O God, have mercy on me.


« Reply #5 on: October 12, 2012, 12:34:37 AM »

did anyone ever come up with a Ukranian cheat sheet for OC.net? 

I always get so confused who's who, who's in communion, who's vagante, etc. etc. etc. 

For the record, I believe  His Beatitude Metropolitan Volodymyr is head of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church under the Moscow Patriarchate, and is therefore canonical.
Logged

"Hades is not a place, no, but a state of the soul. It begins here on earth. Just so, paradise begins in the soul of a man here in the earthly life. Here we already have contact with the divine..." -St. John, Wonderworker of Shanghai and San Francisco, Homily On the Sunday of Orthodoxy
podkarpatska
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ACROD
Posts: 8,245


SS Cyril and Methodius Church, Mercer, PA


WWW
« Reply #6 on: October 12, 2012, 08:49:38 AM »

I think that Archbishop Theodore is a Ukrainian rather than a Rusyn but I may be wrong. It's rather ironic in that the Greek Catholic Eparch of Muchachevo and Uzhorod is not Rusyn either - he is Slovak. Go figure....

I thought most nationalist Ukrainians claimed that Carpatho-Rusyns/Ruthenians were actually Ukrainians. This was the opinion of one of my Ukrainian advisors, at least. She was Eastern Catholic, and had no trouble with the U-word.
Yes, a lot of Ukrainians look at (or rather, down on) CR/Ruthenians like Russian chavinists look down on Ukrainians.

You beat me to the punch on that one!  Smiley  His Eminence has not been supportive of one of his prominent pastors, Fr. Dymytry Sydor, pastor of Holy Cross cathedral in Uzhorod who has been in legal trouble and been under house arrest for most of the past two years due to his pro-Rusyn cultural prominence. That is probably why he visited with ROCOR and with neither the OCA nor ACROD. We east Slavs make messy stew.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2012, 08:52:28 AM by podkarpatska » Logged
Orest
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 958


« Reply #7 on: October 12, 2012, 09:14:20 AM »

From the 28th September to the 10th October with the blessing of His Beatitude Metropolitan Volodymyr of Kyiv and All Ukraine, Archbishop Theodore of Mukachevo and Uzhgorod visited the shrine of San Francisco, California...

One of my pet peeves.  I like to see the where the original article was released to the press/internet not a blog address.
http://www.m-eparchy.org.ua/novini/zakinchivsya-ofitsiyniy-vizit-keruyuchogo-mukachivskoyu-eparhieyu-upts-v-spolucheni-shtati-ameriki.html
Is the source of the article.  Nice pictures.  I don't know who tranlsated the article into English.
Logged
mike
Stratopedarches
**************
Offline Offline

Posts: 21,467


WWW
« Reply #8 on: October 12, 2012, 09:29:18 AM »

One of my pet peeves.  I like to see the where the original article was released to the press/internet not a blog address.
http://www.m-eparchy.org.ua/novini/zakinchivsya-ofitsiyniy-vizit-keruyuchogo-mukachivskoyu-eparhieyu-upts-v-spolucheni-shtati-ameriki.html
Is the source of the article.  Nice pictures.  I don't know who tranlsated the article into English.

The blog is the source of the arcticle. The article on the dioceasan website is in Ukrainian.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2012, 09:29:37 AM by Michał Kalina » Logged

Byzantinism
no longer posting here
serb1389
Lord, remember me when you come into your Kingdom!
Global Moderator
Merarches
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Metropolis of San Francisco
Posts: 8,348


Michał Kalina's biggest fan

FrNPantic
WWW
« Reply #9 on: October 12, 2012, 01:42:52 PM »

did anyone ever come up with a Ukranian cheat sheet for OC.net? 

I always get so confused who's who, who's in communion, who's vagante, etc. etc. etc. 

For the record, I believe  His Beatitude Metropolitan Volodymyr is head of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church under the Moscow Patriarchate, and is therefore canonical.

I hate to be nitpicky, but I have to here.  "i believe" just doesn't cut through my confusion brother.  We really need a cheat sheet.  Just sayin. 
Logged

I got nothing.
I forgot the maps
March 27th and May 30th 2010 were my Ordination dates, please forgive everything before that
pious1
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 170


« Reply #10 on: October 12, 2012, 02:06:22 PM »

There are only 3 canonical recognized 'Ukrainian" Orthodox churches out there. The Ukrainian Orthodox Church Moscow Patriarchate under the Russian Orthodox Church who recognizes Pat Kyrill as their Patriarch and in the diaspora, the UOCUSA and Ukrainian Orthodox Church of Canada which are dioceses of the Eccumenical Patriarchate and recognize Pat Bartholomew as their Patriarch. The two largest currently uncanonical Ukrainian Orthodox Churches are the Ukrainian Orthodox Church, Kyivan Patriarchate under Pat Filaret and the UAOC (Ukrainian Autocephalaus Orthodox Church) under Metropolitan Mefodiy. Both of those are fairly sizable in terms of numbers. All other groups are small and almost cult-like.
Logged
Benjamin the Red
Recovering Calvinist
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America, Diocese of Dallas and the South ||| American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Diocese
Posts: 1,601


Have mercy on me, O God, have mercy on me.


« Reply #11 on: October 12, 2012, 02:45:19 PM »

did anyone ever come up with a Ukranian cheat sheet for OC.net? 

I always get so confused who's who, who's in communion, who's vagante, etc. etc. etc. 

For the record, I believe  His Beatitude Metropolitan Volodymyr is head of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church under the Moscow Patriarchate, and is therefore canonical.

I hate to be nitpicky, but I have to here.  "i believe" just doesn't cut through my confusion brother.  We really need a cheat sheet.  Just sayin. 

Lol. Fair enough. His Beatitude is the primate of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church - Moscow Patriarchate. It is the only canonical church in Ukraine, with roughly half of the nation as members.

On the other hand, Patriarch Filaret is the primate of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church-Kyivan Patriarchate, which is the largest non-canonical group in country, claiming roughly one-fifth of the population.

Metropolitan Mefodiy is head of the Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church, which boasts about 10% of Ukraine as members.

There is also the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church, which is in communion with the Roman Catholic Church. The UGCC is headed by Major-Archbishop Sviatoslav and is the third largest church in Ukraine overall, coming after the UOC-MP and UOC-KP. They claim 4.2 million members.

As an addendum, the Ukrainian Greek Orthodox Church of Canada (UGOCC) was a branch of the UGCC, but in 1990 became known as the Ukrainian Orthodox Church of Canada (UOCC) and came under the omophor of the Patriarchate of Constantinople, and is therefore canonical. The Ukrainian Church of the USA is also canonical, under the Patriarchate of Constantinople.

Does that help? Tongue
Logged

"Hades is not a place, no, but a state of the soul. It begins here on earth. Just so, paradise begins in the soul of a man here in the earthly life. Here we already have contact with the divine..." -St. John, Wonderworker of Shanghai and San Francisco, Homily On the Sunday of Orthodoxy
serb1389
Lord, remember me when you come into your Kingdom!
Global Moderator
Merarches
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Metropolis of San Francisco
Posts: 8,348


Michał Kalina's biggest fan

FrNPantic
WWW
« Reply #12 on: October 12, 2012, 03:19:41 PM »

did anyone ever come up with a Ukranian cheat sheet for OC.net? 

I always get so confused who's who, who's in communion, who's vagante, etc. etc. etc. 

For the record, I believe  His Beatitude Metropolitan Volodymyr is head of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church under the Moscow Patriarchate, and is therefore canonical.

I hate to be nitpicky, but I have to here.  "i believe" just doesn't cut through my confusion brother.  We really need a cheat sheet.  Just sayin. 

Lol. Fair enough. His Beatitude is the primate of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church - Moscow Patriarchate. It is the only canonical church in Ukraine, with roughly half of the nation as members.

On the other hand, Patriarch Filaret is the primate of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church-Kyivan Patriarchate, which is the largest non-canonical group in country, claiming roughly one-fifth of the population.

Metropolitan Mefodiy is head of the Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church, which boasts about 10% of Ukraine as members.

There is also the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church, which is in communion with the Roman Catholic Church. The UGCC is headed by Major-Archbishop Sviatoslav and is the third largest church in Ukraine overall, coming after the UOC-MP and UOC-KP. They claim 4.2 million members.

As an addendum, the Ukrainian Greek Orthodox Church of Canada (UGOCC) was a branch of the UGCC, but in 1990 became known as the Ukrainian Orthodox Church of Canada (UOCC) and came under the omophor of the Patriarchate of Constantinople, and is therefore canonical. The Ukrainian Church of the USA is also canonical, under the Patriarchate of Constantinople.

Does that help? Tongue

It helps! It helps!  ::holds up arms in surrender::

Actually this really does clarify a lot for me.  Thanks! 
Logged

I got nothing.
I forgot the maps
March 27th and May 30th 2010 were my Ordination dates, please forgive everything before that
LizaSymonenko
Слава Ісусу Христу!!! Glory to Jesus Christ!!!
Global Moderator
Toumarches
******
Offline Offline

Faith: God's Holy Catholic and Apostolic Orthodox Church
Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the U.S.A.
Posts: 12,924



WWW
« Reply #13 on: October 12, 2012, 04:34:12 PM »


If you know about the UOCofUSA...that's all you need!   angel
Logged

Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
—St. Isaac of Syria
mike
Stratopedarches
**************
Offline Offline

Posts: 21,467


WWW
« Reply #14 on: October 12, 2012, 05:39:40 PM »

did anyone ever come up with a Ukranian cheat sheet for OC.net?  

I always get so confused who's who, who's in communion, who's vagante, etc. etc. etc.  

For the record, I believe  His Beatitude Metropolitan Volodymyr is head of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church under the Moscow Patriarchate, and is therefore canonical.

I hate to be nitpicky, but I have to here.  "i believe" just doesn't cut through my confusion brother.  We really need a cheat sheet.  Just sayin.  

Lol. Fair enough. His Beatitude is the primate of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church - Moscow Patriarchate. It is the only canonical church in Ukraine, with roughly half of the nation as members.

On the other hand, Patriarch Filaret is the primate of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church-Kyivan Patriarchate, which is the largest non-canonical group in country, claiming roughly one-fifth of the population.

Metropolitan Mefodiy is head of the Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church, which boasts about 10% of Ukraine as members.

There is also the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church, which is in communion with the Roman Catholic Church. The UGCC is headed by Major-Archbishop Sviatoslav and is the third largest church in Ukraine overall, coming after the UOC-MP and UOC-KP. They claim 4.2 million members.

As an addendum, the Ukrainian Greek Orthodox Church of Canada (UGOCC) was a branch of the UGCC, but in 1990 became known as the Ukrainian Orthodox Church of Canada (UOCC) and came under the omophor of the Patriarchate of Constantinople, and is therefore canonical. The Ukrainian Church of the USA is also canonical, under the Patriarchate of Constantinople.

Does that help? Tongue

You also could include Abp. Igor's group (one-man Synod) and Patr. Moses' and the two bishops of the UOC in Diaspora.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2012, 05:40:27 PM by Michał Kalina » Logged

Byzantinism
no longer posting here
podkarpatska
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ACROD
Posts: 8,245


SS Cyril and Methodius Church, Mercer, PA


WWW
« Reply #15 on: October 12, 2012, 05:47:24 PM »

did anyone ever come up with a Ukranian cheat sheet for OC.net? 

I always get so confused who's who, who's in communion, who's vagante, etc. etc. etc. 

For the record, I believe  His Beatitude Metropolitan Volodymyr is head of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church under the Moscow Patriarchate, and is therefore canonical.

I hate to be nitpicky, but I have to here.  "i believe" just doesn't cut through my confusion brother.  We really need a cheat sheet.  Just sayin. 

Lol. Fair enough. His Beatitude is the primate of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church - Moscow Patriarchate. It is the only canonical church in Ukraine, with roughly half of the nation as members.

On the other hand, Patriarch Filaret is the primate of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church-Kyivan Patriarchate, which is the largest non-canonical group in country, claiming roughly one-fifth of the population.

Metropolitan Mefodiy is head of the Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church, which boasts about 10% of Ukraine as members.

There is also the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church, which is in communion with the Roman Catholic Church. The UGCC is headed by Major-Archbishop Sviatoslav and is the third largest church in Ukraine overall, coming after the UOC-MP and UOC-KP. They claim 4.2 million members.

As an addendum, the Ukrainian Greek Orthodox Church of Canada (UGOCC) was a branch of the UGCC, but in 1990 became known as the Ukrainian Orthodox Church of Canada (UOCC) and came under the omophor of the Patriarchate of Constantinople, and is therefore canonical. The Ukrainian Church of the USA is also canonical, under the Patriarchate of Constantinople.

Does that help? Tongue

HEAD SPIN ALERT:  I don't think that the UOCC was ever a 'branch of the UGCC (i.e. Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church). It was established in 1913 as an independent Orthodox body. Just like the OCA and ACROD, its establishment may have been a result of turmoil and dissent within the Greek Catholic church but you can't say that any of these groups were ever 'branches' of Greek Catholicism. There are parishes in each which originated as Greek Catholic congregations, my own in Binghamton, NY is in that group, but the parent jurisdiction was established as an Orthodox Christian body.  We don't need to discuss the canonical status of the UOC-USA and UOC-Canada pre-1990 except to say that both were Orthodox.
Logged
mike
Stratopedarches
**************
Offline Offline

Posts: 21,467


WWW
« Reply #16 on: October 12, 2012, 06:05:54 PM »

We don't need to discuss the canonical status of the UOC-USA and UOC-Canada pre-1990 except to say that both were Orthodox.

Do you mean "Orthodox" or "orthodox"?

OK, OK, I am stopping now  angel
Logged

Byzantinism
no longer posting here
serb1389
Lord, remember me when you come into your Kingdom!
Global Moderator
Merarches
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Metropolis of San Francisco
Posts: 8,348


Michał Kalina's biggest fan

FrNPantic
WWW
« Reply #17 on: October 12, 2012, 06:40:21 PM »

did anyone ever come up with a Ukranian cheat sheet for OC.net?  

I always get so confused who's who, who's in communion, who's vagante, etc. etc. etc.  

For the record, I believe  His Beatitude Metropolitan Volodymyr is head of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church under the Moscow Patriarchate, and is therefore canonical.

I hate to be nitpicky, but I have to here.  "i believe" just doesn't cut through my confusion brother.  We really need a cheat sheet.  Just sayin.  

Lol. Fair enough. His Beatitude is the primate of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church - Moscow Patriarchate. It is the only canonical church in Ukraine, with roughly half of the nation as members.

On the other hand, Patriarch Filaret is the primate of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church-Kyivan Patriarchate, which is the largest non-canonical group in country, claiming roughly one-fifth of the population.

Metropolitan Mefodiy is head of the Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church, which boasts about 10% of Ukraine as members.

There is also the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church, which is in communion with the Roman Catholic Church. The UGCC is headed by Major-Archbishop Sviatoslav and is the third largest church in Ukraine overall, coming after the UOC-MP and UOC-KP. They claim 4.2 million members.

As an addendum, the Ukrainian Greek Orthodox Church of Canada (UGOCC) was a branch of the UGCC, but in 1990 became known as the Ukrainian Orthodox Church of Canada (UOCC) and came under the omophor of the Patriarchate of Constantinople, and is therefore canonical. The Ukrainian Church of the USA is also canonical, under the Patriarchate of Constantinople.

Does that help? Tongue

You also could include Abp. Igor's group (one-man Synod) and Patr. Moses' and the two bishops of the UOC in Diaspora.

Benjamin...did you leave someone out!? Cry
Logged

I got nothing.
I forgot the maps
March 27th and May 30th 2010 were my Ordination dates, please forgive everything before that
serb1389
Lord, remember me when you come into your Kingdom!
Global Moderator
Merarches
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Metropolis of San Francisco
Posts: 8,348


Michał Kalina's biggest fan

FrNPantic
WWW
« Reply #18 on: October 12, 2012, 06:40:39 PM »


If you know about the UOCofUSA...that's all you need!   angel

That's the real problem!  I don't! 
Logged

I got nothing.
I forgot the maps
March 27th and May 30th 2010 were my Ordination dates, please forgive everything before that
Benjamin the Red
Recovering Calvinist
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America, Diocese of Dallas and the South ||| American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Diocese
Posts: 1,601


Have mercy on me, O God, have mercy on me.


« Reply #19 on: October 12, 2012, 11:04:19 PM »

Benjamin...did you leave someone out!? Cry

Haha. Well, there are actually more. They're pretty small, though. The only one I would've considered of note that Michał mentioned is the Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church Canonical (UAOC-C), which distinguishes itself from the UAOC I mentioned above, and claims it has independence from the Polish Orthodox Church. It is in fact not canonical. It is lead by Patriarch Moses.

As for Archbishop Igor, he once was connected to the UAOC, but split and is, as far as I know, on his own...episcopally speaking. You can get information about him from this thread.

Both of these are pretty teeny-tiny, for the record.

HEAD SPIN ALERT:  I don't think that the UOCC was ever a 'branch of the UGCC (i.e. Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church). It was established in 1913 as an independent Orthodox body. Just like the OCA and ACROD, its establishment may have been a result of turmoil and dissent within the Greek Catholic church but you can't say that any of these groups were ever 'branches' of Greek Catholicism. There are parishes in each which originated as Greek Catholic congregations, my own in Binghamton, NY is in that group, but the parent jurisdiction was established as an Orthodox Christian body.  We don't need to discuss the canonical status of the UOC-USA and UOC-Canada pre-1990 except to say that both were Orthodox.

I stand corrected. The UOCC's history is rather confusing for me as well. After a little more reading, I can say that it was founded by Ukrainian immigrants that were both Orthodox and Catholic, and were known as the UGOCC. They're canonicity bounced back and forth, as they had primates that were canonical (such as Met. Germanos of the Antiochian Orthodox Archdiocese) and ones that were not (such as Met. Illarion of the UAOC). However, they have been stable since 1990, when they were brought under the omophor of the Ecumenical Patriarchate. This is a history they share with the Ukrainian Orthodox Church in the USA.
Logged

"Hades is not a place, no, but a state of the soul. It begins here on earth. Just so, paradise begins in the soul of a man here in the earthly life. Here we already have contact with the divine..." -St. John, Wonderworker of Shanghai and San Francisco, Homily On the Sunday of Orthodoxy
Benjamin the Red
Recovering Calvinist
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America, Diocese of Dallas and the South ||| American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Diocese
Posts: 1,601


Have mercy on me, O God, have mercy on me.


« Reply #20 on: October 15, 2012, 12:40:27 PM »

Someone has sent me a private message to correct a statement I made earlier. Apparently, Met. Illarion was a canonical bishop of the Polish Orthodox Church. It was my understanding he was affiliated with the UAOC-Canonical, but the history that group shares with the Polish Orthodox Church is rather complicated. As I said earlier, they claim their canonicity through being an autocephalous church granted independence from the Polish Orthodox Church.

This just goes to show that the history of Ukrainian Orthodoxy, even in North America, is very complicated and confusing. I'll take time here to again note that I've never been directly involved in anything to do with Ukrainian Orthodoxy, and so my information is coming second-hand. My apologies for any mistakes I make in trying to relay all of this. Since the person messaged me instead of posting here, I assume the person wishes to remain anonymous, so I'll simply post here, sans username, the message that was sent to me:

Quote
Just a note of clarification:  Metropolitan Ohienko was a bishop of the Polish Orthodox Church before he came to Canada.
In fact he was the one who started discussions with the EP to have the UOCC come under the omaphorion of the EP.
The history of the UOCC in Canada has been very different for Ukrainian Orthodox groups in the USA.  Proobably because of the presence of cradle Orthodox from Bukovyna and Volynia both Orthodox areas of Ukraine and also priests from these two areas that emigrated to Canada and became part of the UOCC.  The first seminary candidates who were ordained in the UOCC were ordained by Metropolitan Germanos of the Antiochian Orthodox Church in the USA.  Other priests that joined the UOCC in the pioneer days were either ordained in Bukovyna, which had its own Metropolitan in the old Austro-Hungarian Empire before WW1 and became part of the Romanian Orthodox in the interwar period.  The remaining Orthodox priests who joined the UOCC in the pioneer era were odarined the Russian Orthodox Church in Volyn which was part of the Russian Empire until 1917 and then part of Poland and the Polish Orthodox Church.

When Metr. Ilarion was elected Metropolitan of the UOCC in 1952 by the Sobor, that same sobor and other sobors refused his advice to join the EP until 1990.  However, there was never a question of our priests not being canonically ordained.  In fact the first thing Metr. Hilarion did in Canada was to re-ordain the 5 priests that had previously been ordained by the American Bishop Ivan Theodorovich.


In the USA the history is so different because former Uniate priests were involved and ran the show.
Logged

"Hades is not a place, no, but a state of the soul. It begins here on earth. Just so, paradise begins in the soul of a man here in the earthly life. Here we already have contact with the divine..." -St. John, Wonderworker of Shanghai and San Francisco, Homily On the Sunday of Orthodoxy
podkarpatska
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ACROD
Posts: 8,245


SS Cyril and Methodius Church, Mercer, PA


WWW
« Reply #21 on: October 15, 2012, 02:51:26 PM »

Someone has sent me a private message to correct a statement I made earlier. Apparently, Met. Illarion was a canonical bishop of the Polish Orthodox Church. It was my understanding he was affiliated with the UAOC-Canonical, but the history that group shares with the Polish Orthodox Church is rather complicated. As I said earlier, they claim their canonicity through being an autocephalous church granted independence from the Polish Orthodox Church.

This just goes to show that the history of Ukrainian Orthodoxy, even in North America, is very complicated and confusing. I'll take time here to again note that I've never been directly involved in anything to do with Ukrainian Orthodoxy, and so my information is coming second-hand. My apologies for any mistakes I make in trying to relay all of this. Since the person messaged me instead of posting here, I assume the person wishes to remain anonymous, so I'll simply post here, sans username, the message that was sent to me:

Quote
Just a note of clarification:  Metropolitan Ohienko was a bishop of the Polish Orthodox Church before he came to Canada.
In fact he was the one who started discussions with the EP to have the UOCC come under the omaphorion of the EP.
The history of the UOCC in Canada has been very different for Ukrainian Orthodox groups in the USA.  Proobably because of the presence of cradle Orthodox from Bukovyna and Volynia both Orthodox areas of Ukraine and also priests from these two areas that emigrated to Canada and became part of the UOCC.  The first seminary candidates who were ordained in the UOCC were ordained by Metropolitan Germanos of the Antiochian Orthodox Church in the USA.  Other priests that joined the UOCC in the pioneer days were either ordained in Bukovyna, which had its own Metropolitan in the old Austro-Hungarian Empire before WW1 and became part of the Romanian Orthodox in the interwar period.  The remaining Orthodox priests who joined the UOCC in the pioneer era were odarined the Russian Orthodox Church in Volyn which was part of the Russian Empire until 1917 and then part of Poland and the Polish Orthodox Church.

When Metr. Ilarion was elected Metropolitan of the UOCC in 1952 by the Sobor, that same sobor and other sobors refused his advice to join the EP until 1990.  However, there was never a question of our priests not being canonically ordained.  In fact the first thing Metr. Hilarion did in Canada was to re-ordain the 5 priests that had previously been ordained by the American Bishop Ivan Theodorovich.


In the USA the history is so different because former Uniate priests were involved and ran the show.

That last sentence is sure to set off a firestorm. The  Ukrainian canonical situation in the United States was far more complicated than simply blaming it on former Greek Catholics.....ACROD was also founded and run by former (Greek Catholic) priests in its formative years and never had any issue of non-canonicity hovering over it as did the Ukrainians. ACROD came into Orthodoxy under the omophor of the EP in 1938 and its formative, formerly Greek Catholic, clergy had no desire to be non-canonical after leaving the Roman church.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2012, 02:52:11 PM by podkarpatska » Logged
Gorazd
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: The Ecumenical Patriarchate of Istanbul and Chambésy
Posts: 1,948



« Reply #22 on: October 15, 2012, 03:36:54 PM »

I thought most nationalist Ukrainians claimed that Carpatho-Rusyns/Ruthenians were actually Ukrainians.
About 90% of the Carpatho-Ruthenians in Ukrainian Zakkarpatia consider themselves to be part of the Ukrainian people... the idea that Carpatho-Ruthenians are not Ukrainians is more popular in the US and in Slovakia.
Logged
podkarpatska
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ACROD
Posts: 8,245


SS Cyril and Methodius Church, Mercer, PA


WWW
« Reply #23 on: October 15, 2012, 03:42:35 PM »

I thought most nationalist Ukrainians claimed that Carpatho-Rusyns/Ruthenians were actually Ukrainians.
About 90% of the Carpatho-Ruthenians in Ukrainian Zakkarpatia consider themselves to be part of the Ukrainian people... the idea that Carpatho-Ruthenians are not Ukrainians is more popular in the US and in Slovakia.

Of course sixty years of Communist propaganda and laws had nothing to do with that perception....although it is historically correct that the rise of Ukrainian nationalism in Transcarpathia and all of western Ukraine in the early twentieth century contributed to that reality as well.
Logged
Gorazd
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: The Ecumenical Patriarchate of Istanbul and Chambésy
Posts: 1,948



« Reply #24 on: October 15, 2012, 06:59:14 PM »

I dont think the Communists encouraged Ukrainian nationalism, that is with the exception of Petro Shelest (leader of the Ukrainian SSR 1963-1972). All other Communists wanted to russify and sovietify Ukraine, including the Zakkarpattia Oblast.
Logged
kijabeboy03
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Posts: 808

"The glory of God is in man fully alive."


« Reply #25 on: November 01, 2012, 12:41:06 PM »

It is all rather complicated, but as far as I understand it after World War II both the Ukrainian Orthodox Church of Canada and what became the Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the USA and the Diaspora received their hierarchies from the hierarchy of the Polish Orthodox Church in Ukraine, which pretty much did what the ROCOR had done after the Bolshevik Revolution - they fled abroad to escape persecution, held councils (sobors), appointed the emigre hierarchs to new dioceses in the diaspora, et cetera. The UOCC and the UOCUSA/Diaspora regularized their situations vis-a-vis mainstream Orthodoxy in the '90s, the ROCOR did so in the 2000s - speaking of who was canonical and who wasn't in the confusing decades of the 20th century might be something best avoided given the politics and confusion that reigned then in both the Old World and the New :-).

Someone has sent me a private message to correct a statement I made earlier. Apparently, Met. Illarion was a canonical bishop of the Polish Orthodox Church. It was my understanding he was affiliated with the UAOC-Canonical, but the history that group shares with the Polish Orthodox Church is rather complicated. As I said earlier, they claim their canonicity through being an autocephalous church granted independence from the Polish Orthodox Church.

This just goes to show that the history of Ukrainian Orthodoxy, even in North America, is very complicated and confusing. I'll take time here to again note that I've never been directly involved in anything to do with Ukrainian Orthodoxy, and so my information is coming second-hand. My apologies for any mistakes I make in trying to relay all of this. Since the person messaged me instead of posting here, I assume the person wishes to remain anonymous, so I'll simply post here, sans username, the message that was sent to me:

Quote
Just a note of clarification:  Metropolitan Ohienko was a bishop of the Polish Orthodox Church before he came to Canada.
In fact he was the one who started discussions with the EP to have the UOCC come under the omaphorion of the EP.
The history of the UOCC in Canada has been very different for Ukrainian Orthodox groups in the USA.  Proobably because of the presence of cradle Orthodox from Bukovyna and Volynia both Orthodox areas of Ukraine and also priests from these two areas that emigrated to Canada and became part of the UOCC.  The first seminary candidates who were ordained in the UOCC were ordained by Metropolitan Germanos of the Antiochian Orthodox Church in the USA.  Other priests that joined the UOCC in the pioneer days were either ordained in Bukovyna, which had its own Metropolitan in the old Austro-Hungarian Empire before WW1 and became part of the Romanian Orthodox in the interwar period.  The remaining Orthodox priests who joined the UOCC in the pioneer era were odarined the Russian Orthodox Church in Volyn which was part of the Russian Empire until 1917 and then part of Poland and the Polish Orthodox Church.

When Metr. Ilarion was elected Metropolitan of the UOCC in 1952 by the Sobor, that same sobor and other sobors refused his advice to join the EP until 1990.  However, there was never a question of our priests not being canonically ordained.  In fact the first thing Metr. Hilarion did in Canada was to re-ordain the 5 priests that had previously been ordained by the American Bishop Ivan Theodorovich.


In the USA the history is so different because former Uniate priests were involved and ran the show.
Logged

"This is the Apostolic Faith, the Orthodox Faith, and the Faith of the Fathers. Having this wonderful treasure, let us preserve it, let us keep it, and let us also use it in such a way that this treasure becomes the victory of Christ in us and in His Church." ~ St. Severus of Antioch ~
mike
Stratopedarches
**************
Offline Offline

Posts: 21,467


WWW
« Reply #26 on: November 01, 2012, 02:22:18 PM »

Some (Russians) accuse the UOC-USA of tracing back to Metropolitan Basil (Lypyvsky - or whatever Englishmen spell it).
« Last Edit: November 01, 2012, 02:27:44 PM by Michał Kalina » Logged

Byzantinism
no longer posting here
LizaSymonenko
Слава Ісусу Христу!!! Glory to Jesus Christ!!!
Global Moderator
Toumarches
******
Offline Offline

Faith: God's Holy Catholic and Apostolic Orthodox Church
Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the U.S.A.
Posts: 12,924



WWW
« Reply #27 on: November 01, 2012, 04:07:23 PM »


The Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the USA had its beginning in 1915 when several already existing parishes and clergy of other Orthodox and Catholic dioceses decided that the Ukrainian population of the USA had reached the level that this distinctive ethnic identity should have its own jurisdiction. There were many spiritual and political concerns, which inspired this decision and it was immediately successful in terms of the number of parishes and faithful who joined the movement. The group sought and received spiritual protection under the omophorion of Bishop Germanos of the Syrian Orthodox Church in the USA. Bishop Germanos provided the necessary guidance for the fledgling jurisdiction until a petition was sent to the newly independent Autocephalous Orthodox Church in Ukraine, which had formed in October 1921 under the leadership of Metropolitan Vasyl Lypkivskyj following the first declaration of Ukrainian Independence in 1918. The response was the assignment of then Archbishop John (Theodorovich) to care for the spiritual needs of the Ukrainian Orthodox faithful of the United States of America.

You can read the entire history here:

http://www.uocofusa.org/history.html

Logged

Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
—St. Isaac of Syria
podkarpatska
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ACROD
Posts: 8,245


SS Cyril and Methodius Church, Mercer, PA


WWW
« Reply #28 on: November 01, 2012, 04:11:23 PM »

Russians have been disputing the origins of the Ukrainian nation and her people forever - and in the late Tsarist period it reached a fever pitch.

I still found it disturbing that the Orthodox Bishop of Muchachevo/Uzhorod did not visit with the spiritual descendants of his people in America either through the OCA or ACROD or even the UOCUSA for that matter, but threw his lot with ROCOR.
Logged
Schultz
Christian. Guitarist. Zymurgist. Librarian.
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,467


Scion of the McKeesport Becks.


WWW
« Reply #29 on: November 01, 2012, 04:20:10 PM »

Russians have been disputing the origins of the Ukrainian nation and her people forever - and in the late Tsarist period it reached a fever pitch.

I still found it disturbing that the Orthodox Bishop of Muchachevo/Uzhorod did not visit with the spiritual descendants of his people in America either through the OCA or ACROD or even the UOCUSA for that matter, but threw his lot with ROCOR.

It was the music, of course.  He didn't want to have to listen to Presov prostopinije, if you can call it that Wink
Logged

"Hearing a nun's confession is like being stoned to death with popcorn." --Abp. Fulton Sheen
podkarpatska
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ACROD
Posts: 8,245


SS Cyril and Methodius Church, Mercer, PA


WWW
« Reply #30 on: November 01, 2012, 04:29:27 PM »

Russians have been disputing the origins of the Ukrainian nation and her people forever - and in the late Tsarist period it reached a fever pitch.

I still found it disturbing that the Orthodox Bishop of Muchachevo/Uzhorod did not visit with the spiritual descendants of his people in America either through the OCA or ACROD or even the UOCUSA for that matter, but threw his lot with ROCOR.

It was the music, of course.  He didn't want to have to listen to Presov prostopinije, if you can call it that Wink


I suspect that he really didn't want to deal with friends of his cathedral's Dean, Fr. Dymytry Sydor, who has been under house arrest by the Ukrainian authorities for his pro-Rusyn sentiments.
Logged
mike
Stratopedarches
**************
Offline Offline

Posts: 21,467


WWW
« Reply #31 on: November 01, 2012, 04:56:03 PM »


The Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the USA had its beginning in 1915 when several already existing parishes and clergy of other Orthodox and Catholic dioceses decided that the Ukrainian population of the USA had reached the level that this distinctive ethnic identity should have its own jurisdiction. There were many spiritual and political concerns, which inspired this decision and it was immediately successful in terms of the number of parishes and faithful who joined the movement. The group sought and received spiritual protection under the omophorion of Bishop Germanos of the Syrian Orthodox Church in the USA. Bishop Germanos provided the necessary guidance for the fledgling jurisdiction until a petition was sent to the newly independent Autocephalous Orthodox Church in Ukraine, which had formed in October 1921 under the leadership of Metropolitan Vasyl Lypkivskyj following the first declaration of Ukrainian Independence in 1918. The response was the assignment of then Archbishop John (Theodorovich) to care for the spiritual needs of the Ukrainian Orthodox faithful of the United States of America.

You can read the entire history here:

http://www.uocofusa.org/history.html



OK, there is written that Archbishop John was (re)consecrated as a bishop because of his lack of apostolic succession (as to the RC definition: Metropolitan Basil who consecrated him had been consecrated by presbiters himself). On the other hand, the text does not mention (re)ordinations of his clergy but as these priests were dying off they were being replaced by priests ordained by bishops with apostolic succession (as to the RC definition).

That would make Russians' claims unfounded since no such priests ordained by priests reached the 1995.

One more question: what happened to the parishes that refused the merging of 1950 and remained under Metropolitan Bogdan (and the EP)?
« Last Edit: November 01, 2012, 04:59:40 PM by Michał Kalina » Logged

Byzantinism
no longer posting here
podkarpatska
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ACROD
Posts: 8,245


SS Cyril and Methodius Church, Mercer, PA


WWW
« Reply #32 on: November 01, 2012, 06:32:14 PM »


The Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the USA had its beginning in 1915 when several already existing parishes and clergy of other Orthodox and Catholic dioceses decided that the Ukrainian population of the USA had reached the level that this distinctive ethnic identity should have its own jurisdiction. There were many spiritual and political concerns, which inspired this decision and it was immediately successful in terms of the number of parishes and faithful who joined the movement. The group sought and received spiritual protection under the omophorion of Bishop Germanos of the Syrian Orthodox Church in the USA. Bishop Germanos provided the necessary guidance for the fledgling jurisdiction until a petition was sent to the newly independent Autocephalous Orthodox Church in Ukraine, which had formed in October 1921 under the leadership of Metropolitan Vasyl Lypkivskyj following the first declaration of Ukrainian Independence in 1918. The response was the assignment of then Archbishop John (Theodorovich) to care for the spiritual needs of the Ukrainian Orthodox faithful of the United States of America.

You can read the entire history here:

http://www.uocofusa.org/history.html



OK, there is written that Archbishop John was (re)consecrated as a bishop because of his lack of apostolic succession (as to the RC definition: Metropolitan Basil who consecrated him had been consecrated by presbiters himself). On the other hand, the text does not mention (re)ordinations of his clergy but as these priests were dying off they were being replaced by priests ordained by bishops with apostolic succession (as to the RC definition).

That would make Russians' claims unfounded since no such priests ordained by priests reached the 1995.

One more question: what happened to the parishes that refused the merging of 1950 and remained under Metropolitan Bogdan (and the EP)?

I believe that at the time of the reception of the UOCUSA under the EP, that Diocese was headed by Archbishop Vsevelod of thrice blessed memory and was merged in the UOCUSA.
Logged
mike
Stratopedarches
**************
Offline Offline

Posts: 21,467


WWW
« Reply #33 on: November 02, 2012, 06:07:08 AM »

Thanks.
Logged

Byzantinism
no longer posting here
Tags: Polish Poland Polish Orthodox Church 
Pages: 1   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.145 seconds with 60 queries.