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Monk Vasyl
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« Reply #45 on: October 11, 2012, 12:51:05 PM »

There are some people who will always be late.  In one parish the woman lived 5 doors down from the church and she was never on time, the priest told her to show up on time or don't approach the chalice.  We've heard children say that the reason they are always late is due to the fact that they (children and parents) have to have a sit-down breakfast before coming to church.  These children want to be on time for services and Sunday school, but are at the mercy of their parents.  But, instead of a flat hard rule, the priest should be counseling people in confession to find out why they are constantly late and then, if necessary, apply a firm rule.
Are they allowed to commune if they have had breakfast?

To the best of my knowledge, they don't approach the chalice.  The only people, that I know Father has refused communion, are non-Orthodox.
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« Reply #46 on: October 11, 2012, 01:45:17 PM »


Is everyone really so easily distracted by someone coming in late?  I'm honestly amazed by all these negative comments.

I try to arrive well before the beginning of Divine Liturgy, however, to be honest it doesn't really bother me when folks come in late.  Better late than never.

With everyone constantly milling about, venerating icons, lighting candles, etc....I don't notice the late comers.  I have more important things to focus on, such as my own sinful nature.
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« Reply #47 on: October 11, 2012, 02:06:17 PM »

With everyone constantly milling about, venerating icons, lighting candles, etc....

I too don't mind latecomers, provided they come in as quietly as possible. As you say, better late than never. The milling about, however, drives me nuts, whether they came on time or not. Many people seem to laud it as if it's some kind of wonderful feature of Orthodoxy. It isn't. If there's a candle stand and icons at the back of the church near the entrance so that they can venerate/light a candle when they come in without being noticed, fine. If not, they can wait until the end of the service, or at least until appropriate times, such as during the Communion of the clergy when people are moving around anyway in order to line up to receive.

I think all Orthodox parishes should take a lead from the Old Believers:
Quote
Likewise, even motion is discouraged during certain parts of the services. Entrance or exit or even fixing of candles is not expected during the reading of the beginning prayers (Heavenly King throughCome, let us Worship) or during the reading of the Six Psalms in Matins, or during the reading or recitation of the Creed, or during the reading of the Gospel. Even apart from these more solemn parts of the services, Old Rite Orthodox do not wander around the church in order to venerate icons or to light candles. While the warden or “altar boys” may fill the oil lamps or replace candles, the other faithful who enter the church after the beginning of services do not wander through the church, but find a place to stand and enter with as little disruption as possible. If one entering the late would like a candle lit, they may ask the warden to place to place a candle at an icon in front of the church. Once one has found a place to stand, it is general practice to stay at that place unless one must leave the church because of sickness or some other need. Otherwise it is not common to walk in and out of the church. Source
« Last Edit: October 11, 2012, 02:07:18 PM by Orthodox11 » Logged
age234
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« Reply #48 on: October 11, 2012, 03:04:27 PM »


Is everyone really so easily distracted by someone coming in late?  I'm honestly amazed by all these negative comments.

I try to arrive well before the beginning of Divine Liturgy, however, to be honest it doesn't really bother me when folks come in late.  Better late than never.

With everyone constantly milling about, venerating icons, lighting candles, etc....I don't notice the late comers.  I have more important things to focus on, such as my own sinful nature.

The presence of pews makes latecomers rather distracting. Everyone has to sit in their favorite seat, people shifting around and walking loudly in their heels, people tossing their keys on the wooden pews...

Then there's the boisterous greetings in the nave (yes, during the Liturgy), people talking loudly in the narthex for the whole first part of the liturgy, everything echoing besides... there's a lot to be distracted by. Thank God it settles down by the Cherubic Hymn.

I can't tune it all out, personally, and no one should have to. It's just not that difficult to arrive on time and be quiet in the church.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2012, 03:07:35 PM by age234 » Logged
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« Reply #49 on: October 11, 2012, 03:22:19 PM »


The above distractions are not due to the individuals coming in late, but, them being inconsiderate. 

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« Reply #50 on: October 11, 2012, 03:39:16 PM »


The above distractions are not due to the individuals coming in late, but, them being inconsiderate. 



And I would posit that consistent tardiness is inconsiderate.
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« Reply #51 on: October 11, 2012, 03:44:13 PM »


The above distractions are not due to the individuals coming in late, but, them being inconsiderate. 



And I would posit that consistent tardiness is inconsiderate.



Yes! (now, what did I do with my "applause" smiley?)
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« Reply #52 on: October 11, 2012, 03:45:56 PM »

One of the biggest things that bothered me in the Greek parish I was going to were so many people only showing up for the Eucharist and then leaving directly after.
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« Reply #53 on: October 11, 2012, 03:48:54 PM »

One of the biggest things that bothered me in the Greek parish I was going to were so many people only showing up for the Eucharist and then leaving directly after.

I think if you asked a Greek priest which question he hated the most in the world it would be "Pater, what time is Communion?"
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« Reply #54 on: October 11, 2012, 03:51:35 PM »

One of the biggest things that bothered me in the Greek parish I was going to were so many people only showing up for the Eucharist and then leaving directly after.

I think if you asked a Greek priest which question he hated the most in the world it would be "Pater, what time is Communion?"
LOL
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« Reply #55 on: October 11, 2012, 04:50:43 PM »

One of the biggest things that bothered me in the Greek parish I was going to were so many people only showing up for the Eucharist and then leaving directly after.

It's about time you showed up here, Achronos!  Grin

What you said reminded me of an Unsourced Orthodox Anecdote about the departed Patriarch Pavle of Serbia, may God give him rest and us the benefit of his prayers.

He was communing people at a church in America. He did this with such prayer. When he happened to see people leave right afterward, he stopped the distribution and said something like, "Forgive me, but in my opinion these people have sinned against God."

It's almost as bad as people leaving right after the first "Christ is risen!" on Pascha night.

Of course, some people have legitimate reasons, but many I've seen at Pascha leaving I never see again and my heart aches for them. They dont know what they're missing--not just what spiritual benefit and joy they could have by staying for the service, but also by actually attending church regularly and making the Church a bigger part of their lives.
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« Reply #56 on: October 11, 2012, 05:03:11 PM »

One of the biggest things that bothered me in the Greek parish I was going to were so many people only showing up for the Eucharist and then leaving directly after.

Ha,
i used to think that was the norm when i was a kid in a large NYC Church.
Go to church squirm through 2hrs of liturgy receive Communion get adidero, and out the door.
At a much smaller church now everyone sits and waits for the end of liturgy and lines up again to get adideron from the priests hand on the way out.

I thnk it was the size of the NY church- you were just another faceless person, and no one ever said anything.
here at the small church-im sure the priest would say something to you if you left right after receiving.

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« Reply #57 on: October 11, 2012, 05:48:01 PM »

Right now, I am working a graveyard shift on Saturday night/Sunday morning.  I've been doing it since August and I have yet to be late to a service.  I get off at 7am, have an hour walk home, and still manage to get dressed and get to church on time.  Hopefully, I will be getting off graveyards in the next month or so (yes!). It will be great to actually get a night's sleep before going to liturgy on Sunday again.
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« Reply #58 on: October 11, 2012, 05:49:38 PM »

I thnk it was the size of the NY church- you were just another faceless person, and no one ever said anything.
here at the small church-im sure the priest would say something to you if you left right after receiving.

In larger churches, especially in cities where there are other Orthodox churches nearby and people don't necessarily attend the same parish every Sunday, it becomes near enough impossible for the priest to keep track of who he should or shouldn't give Communion. You won't notice who came in when, or who normally leaves early, and you can't interrogate every person the chalice. The best you can do in most cases is to make a general announcement just before Communion.
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« Reply #59 on: October 11, 2012, 08:03:37 PM »

I thnk it was the size of the NY church- you were just another faceless person, and no one ever said anything.
here at the small church-im sure the priest would say something to you if you left right after receiving.

In larger churches, especially in cities where there are other Orthodox churches nearby and people don't necessarily attend the same parish every Sunday, it becomes near enough impossible for the priest to keep track of who he should or shouldn't give Communion. You won't notice who came in when, or who normally leaves early, and you can't interrogate every person the chalice. The best you can do in most cases is to make a general announcement just before Communion.

yes, thats exactly how it was. one sunday at St. Demetrious the next at St. Catherin, next St, hrisovalani. i can go on and on.
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« Reply #60 on: October 11, 2012, 08:09:18 PM »


The above distractions are not due to the individuals coming in late, but, them being inconsiderate. 



Liza I am with you on this one. It's a cultural thing. Obviously a lot of folks from the OW don't sweat this issue and I grew up outside the time obsessed world of the American white middle / working class.

Being late to the DL, I don't care. That's the Priest's business.

Just don't show up late to a movie.

The latter is disruptive in itself the former isn't at least not to me.
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« Reply #61 on: October 11, 2012, 08:42:17 PM »

It's a cultural thing. Obviously a lot of folks from the OW don't sweat this issue and I grew up outside the time obsessed world of the American white middle / working class.

I don't know about other parishes, but at my parish most of the people who roll into church late are native born and successful businesspeople, who would not be caught dead walking into a business meeting 20 minutes late and make a racket while doing it.

If you just stepped off the proverbial boat from Lebanon, I may be able to accept it's cultural. If you're a third-generation American who runs a business and are well aware of the concept of time, you should know better. The latter describes most members of my parish, and appealing to culture in these cases is weak.

God bless my priest; he tries his best, but some people just don't care.
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« Reply #62 on: October 11, 2012, 09:50:35 PM »

Our parish priest wrote an entire article about this issue in the monthly bulletin. The rule is that if someone doesn't get to church in time for the Gospel, they shouldn't receive Communion. That's what he wrote to the parishioners and told us to make it a New Year's Resolution. I know that this has been a problem for quite sometime, but I really don't know how it would work in practice. Maybe some people will show up earlier and others won't. My family always showed up to services ten minutes before they started at church when my sister and I were kids. I still go as early as I can so as not to cause a disruption for the people already there.

In Bulgaria, my old country, people come and go during liturgy. Most people will light their candles, venerate a few icons, and stand for a good portion of time. There are others that will stay there for the entirety of the liturgy and receive Communion. In general, though, the latter are probably few and far between because they should have gone to Vespers/Vigil the night before.
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« Reply #63 on: October 12, 2012, 10:57:43 AM »

It may be a cultural thing, but almost without exception, every priest I know or have talked to, is bothered by habitual latecomers.
They may have various approaches to the problem - some more diplomatic, some more strict, while some have given up and just put up with it.

If you can make it on time to work or school or other events without a problem, then it is disrespectful to show up late regularly to church. We all know stuff happens - but Sunday after Sunday is disrespectful to the worship service, to the priest and to our fellow worshippers.
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« Reply #64 on: October 12, 2012, 11:36:37 AM »

One Priest I know refuses communion to anyone arriving later than his homily.

I'm currently in a parish where half of it is cradle. I noticed on Sunday that though we started liturgy 5 minutes late, only the converts & 3-4 cradles were there already.

By the gospel reading, a couple more cradles showed up. It wasn't until about the Creed when most of the regulars were there. However, most of the cradles don't approach for communion anyway (unless they've confessed that morning, which depends on early arrival).

This isn't a cradle v convert issue, but that is the shape it sometimes takes.
Priests, as I've seen them, normally always commune children, while also sometimes having to refuse the parents.

If one wants to receive communion, they shouldn't show up late. Showing up late, while sadly typical, in my opinion, is greatly disrespectful to God. You can't take the initiative to get up and leave earlier to get to church on time? What makes that person think they should be able to receive The Eucharist that day?

I would expand this to lazy people who sit during the whole service or even stay out in the narthex or outdoors visiting or smoking. I understand the elderly and sickly needing to sit. But it is absolutely lazy for young people to do so. You stand in Wal-Mart, you'll stand in long lines, you'll stand in concerts, why can't you stand out of respect and reverence for God himself? Who do you think you are?
Why do you deserve to sit when the Priest, Deacon and altar servers stand? Why do you deserve to sit when the choir stands? Why are you more deserving and important than those who revere God and honor him in their worship by standing?

(Keep in mind the "you" isn't addressed to anyone in particular)
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« Reply #65 on: October 12, 2012, 12:15:17 PM »


If one wants to receive communion, they shouldn't show up late. Showing up late, while sadly typical, in my opinion, is greatly disrespectful to God. You can't take the initiative to get up and leave earlier to get to church on time? What makes that person think they should be able to receive The Eucharist that day?

I would expand this to lazy people who sit during the whole service or even stay out in the narthex or outdoors visiting or smoking. I understand the elderly and sickly needing to sit. But it is absolutely lazy for young people to do so. You stand in Wal-Mart, you'll stand in long lines, you'll stand in concerts, why can't you stand out of respect and reverence for God himself? Who do you think you are?
Why do you deserve to sit when the Priest, Deacon and altar servers stand? Why do you deserve to sit when the choir stands? Why are you more deserving and important than those who revere God and honor him in their worship by standing?

(Keep in mind the "you" isn't addressed to anyone in particular)
Amen - preach it, Brother!  Wink Cheesy

I'm a chanter - always on duty. I might sit for the Epistle, though I read it about half the time so no sitting then - and I will sit for the sermon, but that's it. And it's not just DL, we have Orthros as well - no sitting for me then at all - though my priest might sit for a few minutes during the Praises. I'm sixty, my priest is seventy-one. Most in the congregation are younger. When I see someone seated, legs crossed, arm over the back of the seat, I've been tempted to go over and ask if I can bring them a coffee  Cheesy.
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« Reply #66 on: October 12, 2012, 12:22:14 PM »

Also as a chanter (eventually I want to be tonsured as one, but our bishop is on leave) it irritates me when I'm doing the post-communion prayers and people are visiting with each other. I have no problem if they're talking to the Priest but come on!
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« Reply #67 on: October 12, 2012, 02:04:04 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

I take two buses and two light rail trains to get the 20 miles one-way to Liturgy, and I leave an hour and a half early to get there.  I am English about my timing, if you're not ten minutes early you are late!  I have had several nervous breakdowns when missing a bus or train or otherwise finding myself late, especially after having worked so hard and dilligently to get there on-time.  However, even in my own experiences with being late, I've come to learn from experience that it isn't all or nothing. We have to understand that it is God who brings us to Church any time, as it is God who even gives us life and drags our derrieres out of bed each morning Smiley  We learn to let GOD takeover and do the work, and we respond by cooperating as best as we are able, letting God do His thing while trying our bests to match His effort.

  If folks have made it their routines to get there habitually late, such as by this Gospel reading or by that particular prayer, I'd discourage that kind of behavior.  The purpose of Church is to challenge us, to push us in our Faith, that we can grow and spiritually mature in our relationship with God by the experience, just as in our own families and lives experience pushes us in many directions.  So when folks are randomly late to Liturgy, that is fine, hopefully in prayer they are feeling repentant about their priorities and will push themselves to make amends in the future.  For those who stumble in routinely late with this or that excuse, such flippancy is hardly spiritual growth.  I would never be mean-spirited or condescending to such folks, but I can't help but spiritually pity them that they are not allowing the Church to push them to grow more and more each day in their lives.  Sunday Liturgy is a weekly opportunity for us to challenge ourselves and to grow each week, it is not just an empty obligation.  Further, we grow as a community the more we harmonize and get on the same page.  I love Catholic parishes, but from my experience, they don't seem to be as intimately interconnected as Orthodox parishes, and I pray we keep up our efforts unless we become some of the more lax Catholic parishes which over emphasize the Universal Church and not the family of Christians coming together as One Body of Christ.  Can the foot show up fifteen minutes later than the hand?

Further, if we show up to work and school on time day in and day out during the week, can't we value our opportunity to come to the Kingdom of Heaven on Earth and stand in prayer before Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ? The prayer which drags my lazy behind out of bed each Sunday to hit that train is, "ARE YOU NOT STRONG ENOUGH TO STAND AND PRAY WITH ME FOR ONE HOUR? The spirit is willing, but the body is weak, so pray to the Father.."



stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #68 on: October 12, 2012, 02:12:55 PM »

Well said!
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