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Author Topic: What form of entrance?  (Read 2057 times) Average Rating: 0
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Tommelomsky
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« on: September 19, 2012, 08:19:25 PM »

This is a question to those of you who for example has converted from the Lutheran Church and the Roman Catholic Church to become Orthodox.

If you had a valid baptism and Chrismation, in what kind of way was you recieved into The Orthodox Church then?
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« Reply #1 on: September 19, 2012, 08:23:22 PM »

I haven't converted but I have been baptized in the Roman Catholic Church, and the priest said I will be received by Chrismation if I do move forward with conversion.
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« Reply #2 on: September 19, 2012, 08:28:06 PM »

But can you be chrismated twice? I am a former-RC that is currently being a catechumen in my parish (ROCOR) and recieved chrismation when i converted to The Roman Catholic Church in 2010 (long story). My baptism (Lutheran is valid, for now i guess - due to what is going on in Denmark and Sweden (Norway has yet to be mentioned).

I just wonder what entrance those that are in the "same shoes as me" got. Not that it really matters for probably a long time yet to come.
Being curious.
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« Reply #3 on: September 19, 2012, 09:04:55 PM »

But can you be chrismated twice? I am a former-RC that is currently being a catechumen in my parish (ROCOR) and recieved chrismation when i converted to The Roman Catholic Church in 2010 (long story). My baptism (Lutheran is valid, for now i guess - due to what is going on in Denmark and Sweden (Norway has yet to be mentioned).

I just wonder what entrance those that are in the "same shoes as me" got. Not that it really matters for probably a long time yet to come.
Being curious.

Yes, Chrismation is one of the methods for receiving the heterodox into Orthodoxy, and it can be applied to Catholics who have already been Confirmed. Whether this means that the Catholics are incapable of ministering Sacramental Chrismation (unlikely, since the policy of the Churches which receive Catholics by Chrismation is also typically to receive Catholic priests and bishops by vesting; this understanding is only possible with the Nicodemean theory on sacramental economy), or that the second Chrismation is a non-sacramental Chrismation (there seems to be a history of receiving repentant apostates with a second anointing of chrism) is debatable, I suppose.
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« Reply #4 on: September 19, 2012, 10:03:30 PM »

But can you be chrismated twice? I am a former-RC that is currently being a catechumen in my parish (ROCOR) and recieved chrismation when i converted to The Roman Catholic Church in 2010 (long story). My baptism (Lutheran is valid, for now i guess - due to what is going on in Denmark and Sweden (Norway has yet to be mentioned).

I just wonder what entrance those that are in the "same shoes as me" got. Not that it really matters for probably a long time yet to come.
Being curious.

I was baptized Lutheran and my wife Presbyterian.  Since we did not remember the form of our baptism, we were baptized into the ROCOR.  My children, on the other hand, were baptized LCMS.  Since I was well acquainted with the form and ritual used at their baptism, they were accepted by chrismation.
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« Reply #5 on: September 19, 2012, 10:46:49 PM »

But can you be chrismated twice? I am a former-RC that is currently being a catechumen in my parish (ROCOR) and recieved chrismation when i converted to The Roman Catholic Church in 2010 (long story). My baptism (Lutheran is valid, for now i guess - due to what is going on in Denmark and Sweden (Norway has yet to be mentioned).

I just wonder what entrance those that are in the "same shoes as me" got. Not that it really matters for probably a long time yet to come.
Being curious.
You are in a ROCOR parish, like myself, so odds are you will be baptized. (as i will be)
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« Reply #6 on: September 19, 2012, 11:12:15 PM »

But can you be chrismated twice? I am a former-RC that is currently being a catechumen in my parish (ROCOR) and recieved chrismation when i converted to The Roman Catholic Church in 2010 (long story). My baptism (Lutheran is valid, for now i guess - due to what is going on in Denmark and Sweden (Norway has yet to be mentioned).

I just wonder what entrance those that are in the "same shoes as me" got. Not that it really matters for probably a long time yet to come.
Being curious.

First, you should understand that Orthodox thinking on this topic does not really fit into the 'validity' model which is standard to Western (at least among theologically traditional churches) thinking on it. One can find plenty of Orthodox writers who borrow the terminology, but it never sits entirely comfortable on the actual praxis and Ecumenical canons which underly and predate academic attempts to explain them.

I said that to give context to my direct answer, which is that you won't get a generic answer. Each autocephalous Church has established their own guidelines for the reception of converts, and then each individual bishop has considerable latitude within those guidelines in determining how to apply them to any particular case. Thus, the answer for ROCOR will be different than the answer for GOA or the OCA or the AOA. And even within the ROCOR, the answer in your diocese might be different than the answer in another diocese depending on the specifics of your case. As TheMathematician says, for ROCOR, the most likely answer is you will be received by baptism but the only person who can answer definitively would be your priest (based on the instructions he's received from his bishop).

Although in answer to the last part, yes, you can be chrismated twice. Indeed, that is the normal way that apostates (i.e., an individual who was baptized and chrismated Orthodox and then left for a heresy or even a non-Christian faith but then repented and returned) are received back into the fold.
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« Reply #7 on: September 20, 2012, 06:13:08 AM »

If this is the will of God, then let it be so.
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« Reply #8 on: September 20, 2012, 06:54:43 AM »

Like witega said, "validity" is something of a misnomer when speaking about the Mysteries in an Orthodox context. The Lutheran baptismal formula is essentially an Orthodox one, and on that basis the Church can receive such a person by chrismation and "fill what was lacking" (though some would argue the actual form - simply smearing water 3 times on the forehead - is insufficient, quite different to the threefold pouring allowed by the Didache). I was baptised and confirmed Lutheran (Church of Norway) and was received into the Church by chrismation. This is, however, something I deeply regret and had I known then what I know now, I would have done all in my power to receive an Orthodox baptism.
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« Reply #9 on: September 20, 2012, 08:32:35 AM »

Depends on the denomination you are coming from and the jurisdiction you are coming in.

I had not been chrismated in RC Church, so in my case it was obvious what to do. Generally, Polish Orthodox Church receives baptised and chrismated converts only by confession and Eucharist.
 I have a friend who had similar situation like me: mother Polish RC, father Serbian Orthodox, so she was baptised in RC. Some time ago she had decided to convert to Orthodoxy. Polish priest that she knows said her she would be received by confession and Eucharist (she had been chrismated in RC Church). However, she went to Serbian for one month and there she's been received in Orthodox Church by chrismation and Eucharist (the nuns from the monastery in which the ceremony has been done had tried to encourage my friend to be also baptised). It was done surprisingly without confession, what's I think it's not appropriate, but that's another topic.
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« Reply #10 on: September 20, 2012, 09:05:29 AM »

Well i cannot do as in undo the fact that my mum and dad did baptize me lutheran. But i can do everything else right (in given time if..God wills it) to make this right in any possible way. There are alot of mixed thoughts going through my head right now and disturbing time i should have spent on catechumenate readings.

Well, thanks for all the answers so far and help. I wish you a happy, blessed Thursday.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2012, 09:06:17 AM by Tommelomsky » Logged

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« Reply #11 on: September 20, 2012, 09:34:22 AM »

Well i cannot do as in undo the fact that my mum and dad did baptize me lutheran. But i can do everything else right (in given time if..God wills it) to make this right in any possible way. There are alot of mixed thoughts going through my head right now and disturbing time i should have spent on catechumenate readings.

Well, thanks for all the answers so far and help. I wish you a happy, blessed Thursday.

Talk to your priest. He should be able to answer any questions you have on why you're being rebaptized. (If you are brought in through ROCOR, you will probably receive an Orthodox Baptism.) I was happy to have an Orthodox baptism. (I was baptized in a Baptist Church when I was 11). It's special and there is a great grace in it.

Here's a good blog post with Church fathers on Baptisms outside of the Church if you're interested: http://classicalchristianity.com/2012/03/15/on-baptisms-outside-of-the-church/
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« Reply #12 on: September 20, 2012, 09:39:28 AM »

Like witega said, "validity" is something of a misnomer when speaking about the Mysteries in an Orthodox context. The Lutheran baptismal formula is essentially an Orthodox one, and on that basis the Church can receive such a person by chrismation and "fill what was lacking" (though some would argue the actual form - simply smearing water 3 times on the forehead - is insufficient, quite different to the threefold pouring allowed by the Didache). I was baptised and confirmed Lutheran (Church of Norway) and was received into the Church by chrismation. This is, however, something I deeply regret and had I known then what I know now, I would have done all in my power to receive an Orthodox baptism.

I was baptized in the Lutheran Church as well - though they poured the water on me from a pitcher, as I've been told. I was received into the Church by chrismation, according to my Bishop's directive. I have never regretted it or yearned for another baptism - one was enough.
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« Reply #13 on: September 21, 2012, 09:44:38 PM »

The question is: can i in time ask my priest to be baptized? If i could choose from how i feel things now, i would want to. Very much.
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« Reply #14 on: September 24, 2012, 01:11:24 AM »

Former Confirmed Roman Catholic. I was Chrismated (Serbian parish) but only on my forehead, whereas the standard Chrismation is multiple anointings, on the forehead, ears, hands, feet...maybe other spots or different ones. Anyway, because I'd been Confirmed as a Roman I was only Chrismated by anointing on my forehead.

If I had my way I would've been completely done over. Full Baptism, Chrismation, as if I'd been coming in as a Pagan.

I know there are (good) theological reasons to the way it was done, but I still wish that I had been allowed a complete break and new beginning. That's probably my own problem though, and working through this will probably help me grow spiritually more than if I'd been completely redone.
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« Reply #15 on: September 24, 2012, 10:44:27 AM »


I have heard that Roman Catholics can be received in to the Orthodox Church simply by going to Holy Confession.
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« Reply #16 on: September 24, 2012, 10:57:34 AM »

I have heard that Roman Catholics can be received in to the Orthodox Church simply by going to Holy Confession.

This has long been the case in the Russian Church, originally as a response to the emergence of Eastern Catholicism.
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« Reply #17 on: September 24, 2012, 07:53:03 PM »

As indicated in Reply No. 6, the traditional method of receiving Roman Catholics is by Baptism and Chrismation, which is the method employed by most of the Holy Orthodox Churches, except the Ecumenical Patriarchate and the Church of Romania, which receive Roman Catholics, by "economy" ("economia"), through administration of the Sacrament of Holy Chrismation (Confirmation), because they had been baptized "in the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit," with water.  The Assembly of Canonical Orthodox Bishops in North and Central America (ACOB) churches, except for the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia (ROCOR), employ the economy method, reception through Chrismation.  The theory of the economy model of reception is that the Chrism, "The Seal and Gift of the Holy Spirit," rectifies, or fulfills, that which was inadequate in the baptism.  The economy form of reception is used by the churches and jurisdictions as note herein for Protestants, also, who had a Trinitarian Baptism with water.
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« Reply #18 on: October 08, 2012, 10:22:49 AM »

I see in a lot of these discussions a tendency for protestant ecclesiology to creep in the back door.  I don't mean that as a slight -- I think it's unintentional.  But I see a lot more protestant converts worrying about their reception into the Church and how it was done than perhaps there should be.

The bishop gets to make the call on how you are received.  The bishop holds the keys.  So if the bishop says you're in the Church, you are in.  Truly, fully and completely.  Worrying about whether you were received properly reflects both a protestant mindset toward the mysteries ("are they truly 'valid' or 'efficacious'") rather than an Orthodox mindset ("the bishop received me into the Church").

I frequently tell my Lutheran friends I cherish my Lutheran baptism, and the Sacraments I received as a Lutheran.  That does not mean I consider them Sacraments of the Church, nor that I put them on par with the Sacraments I receive in the Church.  But neither do I look at them as completely empty, invalid, non-efficacious, etc.  They brought me to Christ.  Whatever fulfilling was done at my reception into the Church (by Chrismation) is something I also rejoice over, but I would advise converts not to worry too much about it.  The bishop received you.  You belong to the Church as fully as one who was baptized as an infant in Orthodoxy and raised in the Church with all of the Sacraments that go along with it. 
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« Reply #19 on: October 08, 2012, 10:39:58 AM »

New month:

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« Reply #20 on: October 08, 2012, 10:54:13 AM »

Former Confirmed Roman Catholic. I was Chrismated (Serbian parish) but only on my forehead, whereas the standard Chrismation is multiple anointings, on the forehead, ears, hands, feet...maybe other spots or different ones. Anyway, because I'd been Confirmed as a Roman I was only Chrismated by anointing on my forehead.


THis is how I was received (from RC) in my OCA parish.
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« Reply #21 on: October 08, 2012, 11:05:13 AM »

I see in a lot of these discussions a tendency for protestant ecclesiology to creep in the back door.  I don't mean that as a slight -- I think it's unintentional.  But I see a lot more protestant converts worrying about their reception into the Church and how it was done than perhaps there should be.

The bishop gets to make the call on how you are received.  The bishop holds the keys.  So if the bishop says you're in the Church, you are in.  Truly, fully and completely.  Worrying about whether you were received properly reflects both a protestant mindset toward the mysteries ("are they truly 'valid' or 'efficacious'") rather than an Orthodox mindset ("the bishop received me into the Church").

I frequently tell my Lutheran friends I cherish my Lutheran baptism, and the Sacraments I received as a Lutheran.  That does not mean I consider them Sacraments of the Church, nor that I put them on par with the Sacraments I receive in the Church.  But neither do I look at them as completely empty, invalid, non-efficacious, etc.  They brought me to Christ.  Whatever fulfilling was done at my reception into the Church (by Chrismation) is something I also rejoice over, but I would advise converts not to worry too much about it.  The bishop received you.  You belong to the Church as fully as one who was baptized as an infant in Orthodoxy and raised in the Church with all of the Sacraments that go along with it. 

Thank you David, as one whose parents and grandparents where received into the Orthodox Faith from the Greek Catholic church through the offices of the Ecumenical Throne in 1938, this was exactly what I was taught. Amen and thanks again!
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« Reply #22 on: October 08, 2012, 11:49:34 AM »

The question is: can i in time ask my priest to be baptized? If i could choose from how i feel things now, i would want to. Very much.

Ask your priest. Ask your bishop. Nothing wrong with asking. If you are uncertain about anything, ask.
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« Reply #23 on: October 08, 2012, 08:22:59 PM »

In due time i will. In the meantime, I offer it up to God.
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« Reply #24 on: October 08, 2012, 10:15:15 PM »

In due time i will. In the meantime, I offer it up to God.
Smiley

Seems like a wise decision.
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« Reply #25 on: October 10, 2012, 10:53:20 AM »

I was  baptized and confirmed RC, I was recieved into the Church by confession(of faith) and  Eucharist. I think it is up to the Bishop
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