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Author Topic: Suspecting certain hierarchs are homosexual in the Orthodox church  (Read 2377 times) Average Rating: 0
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JamesRottnek
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« Reply #45 on: October 09, 2012, 02:40:46 AM »

And yes, I'll come right out and say it: I would never attend a parish that had an effiminate Priest. And I sure as heck wouldn't let my children anywhere near one. Call me judgmental all you want. I really don't care.



Selam

Don't worry, I won't call you judgmental; I'll call you a bigot.
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« Reply #46 on: October 09, 2012, 02:56:12 AM »

And yes, I'll come right out and say it: I would never attend a parish that had an effiminate Priest. And I sure as heck wouldn't let my children anywhere near one. Call me judgmental all you want. I really don't care.



Selam

Don't worry, I won't call you judgmental; I'll call you a bigot.
Really?  And just why would you lower yourself to such a level?  As we have learned, definitions today are subjective. Calling him names doesn't make it true.  It just shows your anger, so lets stop with the name calling.  This isn't middle school.
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« Reply #47 on: October 09, 2012, 04:12:49 AM »

And yes, I'll come right out and say it: I would never attend a parish that had an effiminate Priest. And I sure as heck wouldn't let my children anywhere near one. Call me judgmental all you want. I really don't care.



Selam

Gebre, that is really disappointing. It's bad enough that actual homosexuals have to suffer the unfair prejudice of Christians, but now even perceived homosexuals are apparently subject to the same (I can only assume your objection to effiminancy arises out of a perceived nexus with homosexuality).
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« Reply #48 on: October 09, 2012, 04:18:27 AM »

And yes, I'll come right out and say it: I would never attend a parish that had an effiminate Priest. And I sure as heck wouldn't let my children anywhere near one. Call me judgmental all you want. I really don't care.

Have you ever seen a video of Elder Ephraim of Arizona? A champion of conservative Orthodox traditionalism in America, but very effeminate.
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« Reply #49 on: October 09, 2012, 04:36:45 AM »

And yes, I'll come right out and say it: I would never attend a parish that had an effiminate Priest.

Orthodox priests have long hair and they wear funny hats and weirdo black dresses. Are you exactly sure you've chosen right religion for you? police
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« Reply #50 on: October 09, 2012, 05:11:51 AM »

Whether you agree with his (Gebre) view, I'm not sure why you are attacking him for having that view.  If he can not grow in an environment as he described, should he not find a place he can?  You chastise him for his view by doing the very thing he did.  How does this make sense?  Why not just allow him to feel the way he does about it instead of attacking that view.  Why not simply say, "I see what you are saying, but I disagree based on..."  I wouldn't attend a parish if the priest stated he thought marijuana should be legalized.  I'm sure there are things which would, or have, kept you from a particular parish.  Just think about it.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2012, 05:41:07 AM by Kerdy » Logged
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« Reply #51 on: October 09, 2012, 05:28:12 AM »

Labeling someone as effeminate and homosexual on the basis of a speech impediment is high-handed, inaccurate, and totally unjustified. It is this that I suspect akimori is objecting to. I do, as well.

There is an Orthodox priest of long and distinguished service, and of unimpeachable integrity, in my neck of the woods who lisps. I'd dare anyone to accuse him of being homosexual or effeminate to his face.  Shocked Shocked Shocked

And there are plenty of homosexual men who show no sign at all of effeminacy or distinctive speech.
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« Reply #52 on: October 09, 2012, 05:38:22 AM »

And yes, I'll come right out and say it: I would never attend a parish that had an effiminate Priest. And I sure as heck wouldn't let my children anywhere near one. Call me judgmental all you want. I really don't care.

Have you ever seen a video of Elder Ephraim of Arizona? A champion of conservative Orthodox traditionalism in America, but very effeminate.


I wouldn't consider him effeminate at all. Having a high pitched voice is not my definition of effeminate.


Selam
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« Reply #53 on: October 09, 2012, 08:40:16 AM »

And yes, I'll come right out and say it: I would never attend a parish that had an effiminate Priest. And I sure as heck wouldn't let my children anywhere near one. Call me judgmental all you want. I really don't care.

Have you ever seen a video of Elder Ephraim of Arizona? A champion of conservative Orthodox traditionalism in America, but very effeminate.


I wouldn't consider him effeminate at all. Having a high pitched voice is not my definition of effeminate.


Selam
Then, perhaps your definition would be appreciated here. Very rarely do I disagree with you and like some others, I'm slightly perplexed by your stand. Does "effeminate" mean "he cooks" "he likes to arrange flowers" "he's a hairstylist" "he wears a pink tie" Any of the above? or All of the above?

You may mean "creepy touchy feely" which is something else altogether - and often more perceived than in actual fact realized.

Please help me understand what you're getting at.
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« Reply #54 on: October 09, 2012, 08:53:21 AM »

 
Plan of action?  Stop worrying about t and let the Church deal with its own problems with unfounded rumors.

But our brother is part of the Church, and he has sincere concerns. I guess we should turn a blind eye and navel gaze until the toothpaste is out of the tube? Do you think the sexual scandals in the Roman Catholic church happened overnight? I'm would bet that lay people who expressed early concerns received the same rebukes our brother has here. So they kept quiet and minded their own business while the poison ran amok. 


Selam

Calumniating a hierarch on the basis of his voice "sounding gay" and hearsay is inexcusable. It hurts the faithful without any particular reason to do so. Again, if this poster had a strong case for his suspicions, this would be a different matter, but the evidence here presented is ridiculous, and it is absurd and foolish beyond belief to suggest that he should take action based on what he has written so far. I am glad to see that most of this board is not inclined to encourage the same type of vomit and scandal-seeking behavior (the stuff we presumably left behind at baptism) as you are encouraging. With people to write things like this, the devil need not do anything to lead people into perdition, as when you write things like this, you do his work and sow tares into the fields of the Lord.
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« Reply #55 on: October 09, 2012, 10:06:13 AM »

 
Plan of action?  Stop worrying about t and let the Church deal with its own problems with unfounded rumors.

But our brother is part of the Church, and he has sincere concerns. I guess we should turn a blind eye and navel gaze until the toothpaste is out of the tube? Do you think the sexual scandals in the Roman Catholic church happened overnight? I'm would bet that lay people who expressed early concerns received the same rebukes our brother has here. So they kept quiet and minded their own business while the poison ran amok. 


Selam

Calumniating a hierarch on the basis of his voice "sounding gay" and hearsay is inexcusable. It hurts the faithful without any particular reason to do so. Again, if this poster had a strong case for his suspicions, this would be a different matter, but the evidence here presented is ridiculous, and it is absurd and foolish beyond belief to suggest that he should take action based on what he has written so far. I am glad to see that most of this board is not inclined to encourage the same type of vomit and scandal-seeking behavior (the stuff we presumably left behind at baptism) as you are encouraging. With people to write things like this, the devil need not do anything to lead people into perdition, as when you write things like this, you do his work and sow tares into the fields of the Lord.

Not just hierarchs, that goes for stereotyping anyone based on preconceptions.
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« Reply #56 on: October 09, 2012, 10:23:50 AM »

And yes, I'll come right out and say it: I would never attend a parish that had an effiminate Priest. And I sure as heck wouldn't let my children anywhere near one. Call me judgmental all you want. I really don't care.



Selam

Gebre, I watch My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic, I'm masculine in all other categories of my life, but if you saw me wearing a cartoon pony on my shirt, would you consider me Effeminate? If so, you wouldn't let your kids around me because of that?

Being effeminate doesn't mean you are gay, or pedophiliac, it just means silly gender stereotypes don't bend your way all the time.
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« Reply #57 on: October 09, 2012, 10:55:39 AM »

Fr. Seraphim Rose was homosexual, what of if?

An attraction isn't a sin. Homosexual attraction isn't much different from heterosexual, it is the lust and sexual immorality which is evil.
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« Reply #58 on: October 09, 2012, 01:07:02 PM »

 
Plan of action?  Stop worrying about t and let the Church deal with its own problems with unfounded rumors.

But our brother is part of the Church, and he has sincere concerns. I guess we should turn a blind eye and navel gaze until the toothpaste is out of the tube? Do you think the sexual scandals in the Roman Catholic church happened overnight? I'm would bet that lay people who expressed early concerns received the same rebukes our brother has here. So they kept quiet and minded their own business while the poison ran amok. 


Selam

Calumniating a hierarch on the basis of his voice "sounding gay" and hearsay is inexcusable. It hurts the faithful without any particular reason to do so. Again, if this poster had a strong case for his suspicions, this would be a different matter, but the evidence here presented is ridiculous, and it is absurd and foolish beyond belief to suggest that he should take action based on what he has written so far. I am glad to see that most of this board is not inclined to encourage the same type of vomit and scandal-seeking behavior (the stuff we presumably left behind at baptism) as you are encouraging. With people to write things like this, the devil need not do anything to lead people into perdition, as when you write things like this, you do his work and sow tares into the fields of the Lord.

Not just hierarchs, that goes for stereotyping anyone based on preconceptions.

I agree.
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« Reply #59 on: October 09, 2012, 01:51:43 PM »

I have been told by certain people (to remain anonymous) that certain Orthodox hierarchs in a certain jurisdiction are in fact homosexuals. Now usually a rumor like that has some basis. One of the hierarchs whom I was told has been a homosexual for years has a noticeable "lisp" that many homosexuals have. Now personally, I have no problem with homosexuals as I am not God and whom am I to judge. However I have never spread these rumors but I have been told one of these hierarchs has paid for his lover's home in the Southeast with church funds. If that is true, I think that should be brought to light to that particular jurisdiction. Now my question is making an accusation against an Orthodox hierarch a "lawsuitable offense"? Please advise me as to what I should do? Part of me wants to hire a private investigator to get further evidence against this hierarch and then post online and pass though out the eparchies. Another part wants to confront the hierarch face to face with the accusation. And yet another part of me wants to look the other way and forget about it. Please advise me as to a correct plan of action.

I'm saddened - but not surprised - by the judgmental, mocking, and condemning attitude with which many people here have responded to your sincere concerns. Personally, I am thankful that you love the Church enough to be concerned about such issues. Unfortunately, many people here on OC.net feel that sincere Christian concern equates to judgmentalism; and in ironic fashion they will hypocritally judge you anytime you dare to mention moral concerns.

My advice - FWIW - is to discuss these concerns with your Priest, pray for the Bishops in question, and then if you believe action is called for, be brave enough to take such action. It would be a tragedy if our Orthodox Churches became scandalized by the sexual immorality and evils that have plagued the Roman Catholic clergy. And I'm sure that many devout Catholics who expressed the same concerns that you have here were told, "mind your own business," "don't judge," and "put a cork in it."

God bless you for caring. Don't let the callous, apathetic ridicule of others dim your Christian conscience.

"Lord have mercy."




Selam

Are you seriously comparing bishops having sex with men, consensually, to bishops covering up the rape of children by their priests?  Wow...

I'd also be careful about encouraging him to make accusations; if I recall correctly, there's at least one canon about how any accusations made about a bishop must be made to the bishop's synod, and that a layman who fails to prove his accusation must be excommunicated.


Never suggested anything of the sort. But I don't expect many people here to actually read what I write. Easier to make false accusations and cast judgment about my intentions, all in the name of "not being judgmental."


Selam

Gebre, that's hardly fair. You praised the OP for his moral concern, and urged him to be brave enough to take action because it would be a tragedy for the Orthodox Church to be scandalized "by the sexual immorality and evils that have plagued the Roman Catholic clergy." You directly contrasted this situation to the Catholic scandals. It is only logical for your reader to believe that you absolutely were comparing the two situations. Don't be credulous because it suits you. If that wasn't your intention, then it was a most unfortunate word choice.

As to the situation in the OP being a valid moral concern- I can't see in what universe it could be. It's totally hearsay without any sort of foundation. It's not as if a bishop came to the OP and said, "Hey, can you watch my dog while my lover and I go to his new home in the Southeast?" His entire "case" amounts to: heard it from a friend who heard it from a friend who heard it from another that this guy has a lisp.

Is it a good thing that OP is concerned with the morality of the Church? Sure, but I suggest that that best starts at home. In the words of my second grade teacher: tend your own garden.
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« Reply #60 on: October 09, 2012, 02:02:35 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!


Brother Gebre Menfes Kiddus, I am not joining a chorus of litanies against you, but I must confess, you greatly misspoke and that has ruffled many feathers.  Kerdy I feel has defended you well enough, but I will add this personal note.  Brother, we have to have faith in the integrity of the Church, even when we misunderstand her members, her clerics, her structures, her approach.  We are ALL sinners there, period.  So we learn in faith and love to cooperate towards mutual repentance.  It isn't about casting our own personal judgments, its precisely about finding a private internal place in prayer during the Liturgy services to let that stuff go and live in the love of God.  So if we are going around making judgments against the Church, be they legitimate concerns or not, we are getting ahead of ourselves.  Would we like the Church to make the same judgments against us? Would you have been content if all the priests you've experienced said, "I won't serve or lead prayer in a Church with Rastafari brothers and sisters with dreadlocks and different style of dress?"  Believe there are many people (and several on OC.net have already vehemently expressed these concerns) who feel very strongly against Rastafari culture and manners of dress, and these often want Rastafari folks up out of the Church.  Others have issues with the way some young women dress, others with the way some people may have issues with alcohol, or some people have prejudice against poverty and poor folks.  However, what sets the Church apart, is we let all our grievances go at the door.  They will be right there waiting for us after we leave the Church to pick up where they left off, but at the Church, we have to trust in God.  If we have issues with our priests (and who here hasn't?), we need to sort that out in prayer.  However drawing lines in the sand will only hurt ourselves, not the Church, not the priests.  So why should we let our own judgments hurt ourselves and our relationship with the Church?

If there were serious and legitimate concerns about any priests and sexual activity or even sexual interest in children, these should be immediately reported to the Bishops, if not the proper legal authorities.  However, if a priest is effiminate, or otherwise different from conventional cultural norms, that is not ours to judge the Church on.  When we walk away from the Church for any reason, we only are cutting off our own noses to spite our faces.

I will pray about these crucially crucial matters, but we all need to continually cultivate Faith in our Church to quell the surging storms of doubt that Apostle James mentions in the fourth chapter of His Epistle.

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #61 on: October 09, 2012, 02:24:32 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!


Brother Gebre Menfes Kiddus, I am not joining a chorus of litanies against you, but I must confess, you greatly misspoke and that has ruffled many feathers.  Kerdy I feel has defended you well enough, but I will add this personal note.  Brother, we have to have faith in the integrity of the Church, even when we misunderstand her members, her clerics, her structures, her approach.  We are ALL sinners there, period.  So we learn in faith and love to cooperate towards mutual repentance.  It isn't about casting our own personal judgments, its precisely about finding a private internal place in prayer during the Liturgy services to let that stuff go and live in the love of God.  So if we are going around making judgments against the Church, be they legitimate concerns or not, we are getting ahead of ourselves.  Would we like the Church to make the same judgments against us? Would you have been content if all the priests you've experienced said, "I won't serve or lead prayer in a Church with Rastafari brothers and sisters with dreadlocks and different style of dress?"  Believe there are many people (and several on OC.net have already vehemently expressed these concerns) who feel very strongly against Rastafari culture and manners of dress, and these often want Rastafari folks up out of the Church.  Others have issues with the way some young women dress, others with the way some people may have issues with alcohol, or some people have prejudice against poverty and poor folks.  However, what sets the Church apart, is we let all our grievances go at the door.  They will be right there waiting for us after we leave the Church to pick up where they left off, but at the Church, we have to trust in God.  If we have issues with our priests (and who here hasn't?), we need to sort that out in prayer.  However drawing lines in the sand will only hurt ourselves, not the Church, not the priests.  So why should we let our own judgments hurt ourselves and our relationship with the Church?

If there were serious and legitimate concerns about any priests and sexual activity or even sexual interest in children, these should be immediately reported to the Bishops, if not the proper legal authorities.  However, if a priest is effiminate, or otherwise different from conventional cultural norms, that is not ours to judge the Church on.  When we walk away from the Church for any reason, we only are cutting off our own noses to spite our faces.

I will pray about these crucially crucial matters, but we all need to continually cultivate Faith in our Church to quell the surging storms of doubt that Apostle James mentions in the fourth chapter of His Epistle.

stay blessed,
habte selassie

Well said!

but with that in mind a line must eventually be drawn somewhere, lest we have nudist attending church.

And i personally draw it at------BAGY PANTS---showing us your underwear------they call it underwear for a reason, think abt it!
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« Reply #62 on: October 09, 2012, 02:35:08 PM »

Quote
“I have been told by certain people (to remain anonymous) that certain Orthodox hierarchs in a certain jurisdiction are in fact homosexuals.”

Do you see what you are saying? You have been told; it’s not that you saw the deed yourself; it’s not that you have any substantial facts, but only rumors, rumors disseminated by certain people whose business it is to disseminate rumors and wait for the after effect to take hold. People just by looking at how much they are engaged in attacking and defaming the hierarchs behind their backs slandering their names viciously to anyone who would lend them ears, who if they had any shred of facts would not have hesitated to expose those hierarchs but because they do not have any substantial facts they are content to eat the flesh of their shepherds. Christians in name only, who neither hear the Lord nor do they have any love for the Church. False brethren, wolves who lurk among the sheep, who ignore the commandment ‘you shall not give false witness’’ and follow the accuser’s path and imitate the Evil One the Accuser of our brethren.

Quote
“Now usually a rumor like that has some basis.”

A rumor like what? What basis? An assumed, imagined farfetched basis? Like the one they are telling you? The so called Christians who don’t want to follow proper channel but are gleefully spreading a slander on the good name of the shepherds behind their backs just so they may act like spiritual people concerned for the Church? Oh please! Open your eyes, flee such serpentine malicious fallacious logic if they care about the church, they would have their facts and take it to the proper channel within the Church, and not engage in unchristian, malicious manner. Do you know the value of a good name? Do you know what a simple accusation would do even if when it is proven that the accusations are false? Do you know how many people are going to be hurt by such baseless none factual, accusations? A rumor, a rumor a rumor a rumor without a fact to back it up is simply a rumor, when people start to attack other people with unsubstantiated rumor it is murder. Worse it’s a prolonged torture, heart ache suffering, and crucifixion of the innocent. I hope you truly understand what living under such cloud of false accusation means to the innocent accused, I hope you and others truly taste and know what it feels like to endure 10 minutes of such a state let alone to watch an hour facing such a cross.

Quote
“One of the hierarchs whom I was told has been a homosexual for years has a noticeable "lisp" that many homosexuals have.”

Look at what they have you believing, an utter lie, and a lisp as a sign of homosexuality?! Wow is that your version of homosexual profiling? It walks like a duck it quacks like a duck it’s a duck, is what God gave the Reverend Father that made you judge him in such a way? God knows what you would have done if you really have something concrete and you had factual evidence that the Reverend Father had committed a homosexual act with a consenting adult. What happened to your sins that he shoulders, the countless sins he hears every day and conceals them with love and integrity, and you find him committing not a crime but a sin, you who have been forgiven so much, go around strutting about considering broadcasting his sins to the world. What did St. Macarius the Great do when he found out his brother the monk was committing fornication right in the monastery? for that matter what kind of false accusation did St. Macarius faced? What did Abba Anthony the great do?

A brother in a monastery was falsely accused of fornication and he arose and went to Abba Anthony. The brethren also came from the monastery to correct him and bring him back. They set about proving that he had done this thing, but he defended himself and denied that he had done anything of the kind. Now Abba Paphnutius, who is called Cephalus, happened to be there, and he told them this parable: "I have seen a man on the bank of the river buried up to his knees in mud and some men came to give him a hand to help him out, but they pushed him further in up to his neck." Then Abba Anthony said this about Abba Paphnutius: "Here is a real man, who can care for souls and save them." All those present were pierced to the heart by the words of the old man and they asked forgiveness of the brother. So, admonished by the Fathers, they took the brother back to the monastery.

How many of the desert fathers were accused of sexual immorality falsely? And how many of the brothers the monks have gotten up after falling in sexual sin by the merciful spiritual care of their brothers? What you have is rumors, even if there is a remote possibility that a sin is being committed between two consenting adults,  and you know of it for a fact and  you feel you must speak then speak using the proper channel of the Church, in a manner that will help your wounded Father the Shepherd, spiritually. The other sick malicious rumor spreading that is being acted upon by those people who told you that rumor is without a doubt intended to harm the Reverend Fathers, it comes without a doubt from the Evil One, hear me my brother, I beg you, if you are a practicing orthodox and go to the Divine Liturgy, do not approach the Chalice without confessing this grave sin you are in. I don’t go around saying this to people, but you my brother it is not by accident that you came to this forum and God’s providence is reaching out to you save yourself and perhaps partake of the grace and blessing that comes from standing with your shepherd and being counted when the wolves attack him. So Repent of this.

Quote
“However I have never spread these rumors but I have been told one of these hierarchs has paid for his lover's home in the Southeast with church funds.”

This is not true, you are spreading rumors, in fact in this very same sentence you pile it up even more, you bring out a big accusation, of sexual immorality plus  theft from the Church all based on a rumor. Have they no fear of God? Have you? To utter such things without anything to back it up is a terrible terrible thing. You have been used my brother, by those people and by the evil one.

Quote
“If that is true, I think that should be brought to light to that particular jurisdiction”

If that was true, why didn’t those who have the facts and are concerned about the Bishops and the Church go to that particular jurisdiction proper chain of command? Instead of yammering about such things to whoever is willing to listen, and harming the church in this way? Doesn’t the jurisdiction have its own ways of dealing with financial discrepancies and ways to report such discrepancies?

Quote
“Part of me wants to hire a private investigator to get further evidence against this hierarch and then post online and pass though out the eparchies.”


 What you should have done was hold those Tilly tallies by their throat and demand that they bring their solid evidence (nothing under the category of the lisp evidence) right away or apologize to the Bishops your fathers for spreading such rumors.as to posting online really??? May the Lord shelter you from committing such a blunder!

Quote
Now my question is making an accusation against an Orthodox hierarch a "law suitable offense"?

 false accusation can always be a” law suitable” offense, but you have something more to worry about, if you do not judge yourself, Judgment will come upon you and there is no partiality. Know what sort of thing you got yourself into all based on rumors!

Quote
“Another part wants to confront the hierarch face to face with the accusation.”

Confront him about accusations based on what exactly? What facts do you have to give weight to such rumors enough to as you have put it ‘ confront him?’ whatever happened to the Fear of God that should reign in our hearts my brother? If your father was being slandered behind his back by some people of cheating on your mother and those people come and told you their version of fallacious evidence how would you react, does that seem more real to you than the shepherd of the Church being accused with no real evidence, perhaps you would  do more for your biological father’s reputation, now if you are a Christian as you claim to be, go out and put as much effort into fighting baseless rumors and ignorant profiling, malicious attacks of the evil one and his servants against your Fathers  those shepherds of the Church.


Lord have mercy!
« Last Edit: October 09, 2012, 02:43:48 PM by Hiwot » Logged

To God be the Glory in all things! Amen!

Only pray for me, that God would give me both inward and outward strength, that I may not only speak, but truly will; and that I may not merely be called a Christian, but really be found to be one. St.Ignatius of Antioch.Epistle to the Romans.
Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)
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Faith: Orthodox Christian
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« Reply #63 on: October 09, 2012, 04:05:40 PM »

I am not going to tolerate drive-by attacks on our hierarchs--of any jurisdiction. If anyone wants to do spew their filth, they can go ahead and post on Monomakhos. Thanks, Carl Kraeff
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Michal: "SC, love you in this thread."
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