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Author Topic: Suspecting certain hierarchs are homosexual in the Orthodox church  (Read 2469 times) Average Rating: 0
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cossack 316
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« on: October 08, 2012, 02:58:32 PM »

I have been told by certain people (to remain anonymous) that certain Orthodox hierarchs in a certain jurisdiction are in fact homosexuals. Now usually a rumor like that has some basis. One of the hierarchs whom I was told has been a homosexual for years has a noticeable "lisp" that many homosexuals have. Now personally, I have no problem with homosexuals as I am not God and whom am I to judge. However I have never spread these rumors but I have been told one of these hierarchs has paid for his lover's home in the Southeast with church funds. If that is true, I think that should be brought to light to that particular jurisdiction. Now my question is making an accusation against an Orthodox hierarch a "lawsuitable offense"? Please advise me as to what I should do? Part of me wants to hire a private investigator to get further evidence against this hierarch and then post online and pass though out the eparchies. Another part wants to confront the hierarch face to face with the accusation. And yet another part of me wants to look the other way and forget about it. Please advise me as to a correct plan of action.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2012, 03:15:08 PM by cossack 316 » Logged
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« Reply #1 on: October 08, 2012, 03:13:41 PM »

Put a cork in it.
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« Reply #2 on: October 08, 2012, 03:28:36 PM »

Rumor? Libel? Get real.
IF this concerns YOUR bishop then you've got an issue. If not, you're way, way out of line.
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« Reply #3 on: October 08, 2012, 03:38:26 PM »

One of the hierarchs whom I was told has been a homosexual for years has a noticeable "lisp" that many homosexuals have.
A lisp is a speech impediment. it has nothing to do with being gay, bisexual or heterosexual. Or whether or not the person is sexually active.

Now personally, I have no problem with homosexuals
And yet here you are posting about it.

Now my question is making an accusation against an Orthodox hierarch a "lawsuitable offense"?
If it turns out to be false and your accusation damaged his career and caused financial loss to the diocese....yes.

Please advise me as to what I should do?
Find another way to spend your time?
« Last Edit: October 08, 2012, 03:39:52 PM by Tallitot » Logged

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« Reply #4 on: October 08, 2012, 03:44:49 PM »



Now personally, I have no problem with homosexuals
And yet here you are posting about it.

Well the thing that gets me is twofold. First as a Bishop or Archbishop or any hierarch, in the Orthodox Church Homosexuality is a sin. So if a bishop is "sinning" people should know. If a bishop is sleeping with a woman, his flock should know. If a bishop is stealing money from the church, people should know. Second, if the bishop is using church funds for a male or female lover, that should be brought to attention. However, I am scared to bring this out in the open hence why I bring it up here to get an idea what to do. Another way of looking at it is not speaking the truth is lying and I may be many things, but I am not a liar. I do agree that a lisp is not necessarily an indicator of homosexuality, however in many cases it can be. Obviously there needs to be more to accuse the hierarch with than just a "lisp".
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« Reply #5 on: October 08, 2012, 03:55:27 PM »



Now personally, I have no problem with homosexuals
And yet here you are posting about it.

Well the thing that gets me is twofold. First as a Bishop or Archbishop or any hierarch, in the Orthodox Church Homosexuality is a sin. So if a bishop is "sinning" people should know. If a bishop is sleeping with a woman, his flock should know. If a bishop is stealing money from the church, people should know. Second, if the bishop is using church funds for a male or female lover, that should be brought to attention. However, I am scared to bring this out in the open hence why I bring it up here to get an idea what to do. Another way of looking at it is not speaking the truth is lying and I may be many things, but I am not a liar. I do agree that a lisp is not necessarily an indicator of homosexuality, however in many cases it can be. Obviously there needs to be more to accuse the hierarch with than just a "lisp".

Being homosexual is the exact same as being straight or bi is, the urges that we have are the same, and those are not sins, but temptations. The sin comes in when we act upon those desires, and have premarital sex. Yes, marriage between people of the same sex does not exist, and as such, sex between them is always premarital sex. However, the sin is the same no matter the sex of the people involved.

Fr. Seraphim Rose, of blessed memory, had homosexual desires, and yet lived his life as a monastic, and greatly contributed to the Church and the Faith.

My point? your concerns are thing that you should not be concerned about, especially if it is not your Bishop.
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« Reply #6 on: October 08, 2012, 04:10:25 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Being homosexual is the exact same as being straight or bi is, the urges that we have are the same, and those are not sins, but temptations. The sin comes in when we act upon those desires, and have premarital sex. Yes, marriage between people of the same sex does not exist, and as such, sex between them is always premarital sex. However, the sin is the same no matter the sex of the people involved.

Fr. Seraphim Rose, of blessed memory, had homosexual desires, and yet lived his life as a monastic, and greatly contributed to the Church and the Faith.

My point? your concerns are thing that you should not be concerned about, especially if it is not your Bishop.

Thank you, my sentiments exactly.  I have heard of similar situations within Orthodox bishopric and abstainant homosexual bishops.  If I were to discover one of my bishops was homosexual I would consider it honestly none of my business unless (a) they were actively engaging in homosexual activities, after all ALL sex is forbidden to the bishops or (b) they were allowing parishioners to express homosexuality in manners contrary to Orthodox or (c) they were blatant and ugly homophobes and so I felt they were all the worse hypocrites.

Even if one of these three criteria matched, I would still have to tip my hat and reflect in prayer, we're talking about our revered fathers the Bishops!

stay blessed,
habte selassie
« Last Edit: October 08, 2012, 04:10:39 PM by HabteSelassie » Logged

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« Reply #7 on: October 08, 2012, 04:13:06 PM »


I do agree that a lisp is not necessarily an indicator of homosexuality, however in many cases it can be. Obviously there needs to be more to accuse the hierarch with than just a "lisp".

How charitable of you.
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« Reply #8 on: October 08, 2012, 04:15:31 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!


I do agree that a lisp is not necessarily an indicator of homosexuality, however in many cases it can be. Obviously there needs to be more to accuse the hierarch with than just a "lisp".

How charitable of you.

Haha! Just about EVERY Ethiopian who speaks Amharic has a partial lisp, that is the way such sounds are naturally pronounced there Wink

 angel What are your insinuations exactly  angel

Prejudice is prejudice, and it is always unwarranted and of no redeaming value.  We as Christians should pray earnestly not to succumb to them.

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #9 on: October 08, 2012, 04:20:23 PM »

Well I will continue to keep my mouth shut, like I said I was just deeply troubled and I prefer to get things out in the open rather than whispers behind the scenes. However being the fact that it seems that homosexuality is becoming more accepted in the Orthodox church, perhaps it is not that big a deal.
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« Reply #10 on: October 08, 2012, 04:31:28 PM »

While a lisp would not in and of itself be "evidence" of a person's homosexuality, there is undeniably a "gay accent" that has its own phonological features. This is backed up by impartial linguistic research as being an adopted feature, in the sense that it can be and is turned "up" or "down", depending on the social context of the utterance (see Podesva 2011 for one such study).

As for Amharic, it is spoken much further "forward" in the mouth than English usually is, making it sound more lispy than English (and, by contrast, English sounds funny to Amharas, like we're speaking with our tongues stuck in our throats). Spanish, particularly Peninsular (European) Spanish, has the same phenomenon going on. It's kind of hard for a Spanish guy to sound tough with all that "essss"-ing and "ossss"-ing, and certain other Spanish-speaking people (e.g., Argentinians) are mocked by others for having that feature that makes them sound like "wannabe Europeans".

Hmmm...why not forget about your suspicions and any rumors you've heard and study some sociophonetics? Grin That ought to calm you, somewhat. For the rest, just pray.
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« Reply #11 on: October 08, 2012, 04:38:48 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Well I will continue to keep my mouth shut, like I said I was just deeply troubled and I prefer to get things out in the open rather than whispers behind the scenes. However being the fact that it seems that homosexuality is becoming more accepted in the Orthodox church, perhaps it is not that big a deal.

No one has a problem necessarily with your opinions about the incompatability of Orthodox and homosexuality, but again, Orthodox is not a vault to reinforce prejudice.  To say person is of a particular sexual orientation based solely on their patterns of speech is laughable at best, and dangerous at its worst.

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #12 on: October 08, 2012, 04:43:37 PM »

Well I will continue to keep my mouth shut, like I said I was just deeply troubled and I prefer to get things out in the open rather than whispers behind the scenes. However being the fact that it seems that homosexuality is becoming more accepted in the Orthodox church, perhaps it is not that big a deal.

I agree with you 100%.  It is much better for things to be out in the open than to be whispered about behind the scenes.  Here's how I deal with this.  I don't whisper about things behind the scenes and I find that the truth usually finds its own way into the open without me needing to bring it there.  Problem solved.
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« Reply #13 on: October 08, 2012, 04:46:02 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

While a lisp would not in and of itself be "evidence" of a person's homosexuality, there is undeniably a "gay accent" that has its own phonological features. This is backed up by impartial linguistic research as being an adopted feature, in the sense that it can be and is turned "up" or "down", depending on the social context of the utterance (see Podesva 2011 for one such study).

As for Amharic, it is spoken much further "forward" in the mouth than English usually is, making it sound more lispy than English (and, by contrast, English sounds funny to Amharas, like we're speaking with our tongues stuck in our throats). Spanish, particularly Peninsular (European) Spanish, has the same phenomenon going on. It's kind of hard for a Spanish guy to sound tough with all that "essss"-ing and "ossss"-ing, and certain other Spanish-speaking people (e.g., Argentinians) are mocked by others for having that feature that makes them sound like "wannabe Europeans".

Hmmm...why not forget about your suspicions and any rumors you've heard and study some sociophonetics? Grin That ought to calm you, somewhat. For the rest, just pray.

When learning Amharic I had to unlearn all the speech therapy I had in elementary school to get rid of my original lisp!  I was born several months premature, thankfully the only side-effect was my teeth came in very late, so I had learned to talk before my front teeth were fully in.  It took me two years to get rid of it, and its taken me years to have to get it back when speaking in my albeit limited Amharic Smiley

I would say that if linguists want to identify a "gay accent" they would equally have to treat it like we do "black (i.e. broken) English" which is indeed an observable cultural phenomenon, but which has no basis what so ever in biology.  I guess that language is never biological, but in popular thinking many folks express their prejudices through ideas like talking "gay" or talking "black" and again, prejudice is prejudice. I  know reputable linguistics are not talking about prejudiced ideas, but the problem is many prejudiced people misunderstand what linguists are actually talking about, and therefore also mistakenly use this misunderstanding to vault their prejudice further under the veil of academic legitimacy.  Sort of like phrenology but with languages  police

stay blessed,
habte selassie
« Last Edit: October 08, 2012, 04:46:11 PM by HabteSelassie » Logged

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« Reply #14 on: October 08, 2012, 04:57:22 PM »

I do agree that a lisp is not necessarily an indicator of homosexuality, however in many cases it can be.


 Angry
No.  Being homosexual means that someone has a sexual attraction to members of the same sex.  Homosexuality doesn't come as a sort of package, with a lisp and other stereotypes.  Straight men have lisps.  Will you go to their wives and accuse them of having a boyfriend on the side?  I think that sometimes, we have trouble separating the reality of homosexuality with society's stereotypes and misconceptions.

Also, is this really your concern?  When you die, will God say "You cannot enter!  One of the bishops of your denomination was a practicing homosexual!" 

I think that, if it doesn't impact your salvation, you shouldn't worry about it.  We're always told to have the faith of a child.  I don't think that a child would care what a bishop does in his private life.

And anyway, have faith in God.  He is all-seeing, He knows what the bishop is up to, and if his actions are sinful.  God will be the ultimate judge and punisher.  Have faith in that.

Well I will continue to keep my mouth shut

When it comes to the sins and struggles of others, this really is the best thing to do.  Unless someone is in direct physical harm, let the bishop deal with whatever issues he is or isn't experiencing. 
« Last Edit: October 08, 2012, 05:01:42 PM by trevor72694 » Logged

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« Reply #15 on: October 08, 2012, 04:57:31 PM »

A LISP!

Good God....get out the stakes, light the fire, call the villagers with the pitchforks....

Really, a lisp proves nothing.
Answer these in the affirmative and then u might have something.

Does he sashay when he walks?

Is he light in the loafers?

is he limp wristed?

does he wear rainbow colored clothing?

does he listen to...the village people, Boy George, Cindy lauper, Liza Minnelli?

is he into musicals?

Ha, that was fun, couldent help myself.
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« Reply #16 on: October 08, 2012, 04:59:47 PM »

Habte,

Yeah, that's not really what's up in the field, as you can imagine. Unfortunately I don't have the PDF of the study anymore (cleared out all my folders at the end of the last term) or else I'd be able to provide more than just a citation, but it's a methodologically solid study, published in a peer reviewed linguistics journal and all that. Though you are right about what it doesn't say about biology...there is a reason, after all, why such things are published in sociophonetics journals and not general medical or biology journals. Not that bigots who are just looking to have their prejudices confirmed are likely to be reading any type of journal in the first place... Smiley
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« Reply #17 on: October 08, 2012, 05:05:16 PM »

A LISP!

Good God....get out the stakes, light the fire, call the villagers with the pitchforks....

Really, a lisp proves nothing.
Answer these in the affirmative and then u might have something.

I'm going to take this test based on myself.


Does he sashay when he walks? You'd better believe it!

Is he light in the loafers? I like loafers (esp. Bass weejuns) but, being 16 stone, I cannot be accused of being "light"

is he limp wristed? Only after I injure my wrist

does he wear rainbow colored clothing? I like colors.  Lots of them.  Some might even say I wear "garish" clothing in the spring and summer.  In the fall and winter, I'm much more "sober," as befits the seasons.

does he listen to...the village people, Boy George, Cindy lauper, Liza Minnelli? Guilty on all counts

is he into musicals? Let's just say that a friend's mother recently gave me about 75 vinyl records...all soundtracks from Broadway musicals.  I was particular giddy about the "Sound of Music" and "Sweeney Todd" (with Angela Lansbury and Len Cariou).

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Ha, that was fun, couldent help myself.

How'd I do?
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« Reply #18 on: October 08, 2012, 05:08:31 PM »

Even if there was homosexual hierarchs why would it be a problem? Our hierarchs are monks after all so their sexual orientation is a non-issue.
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« Reply #19 on: October 08, 2012, 05:13:34 PM »

If all gossip was to be believed, there would not be a single clergyman in the entire Orthodox Church who was not an adulterer, fornicator, thief, paedophile, etc.
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« Reply #20 on: October 08, 2012, 05:16:59 PM »



Let's see:
A lisp? No


Does he sashay when he walks? Not that I'm aware of

Is he light in the loafers? I don't wear loafers, I were running shoes to work and dress shoes when I go out.

is he limp wristed? No

does he wear rainbow colored clothing? No, I tend more to blues, greys and other dark colors. I'm frequently complimented on my suits and neckties though.

does he listen to...the village people, Boy George, Cindy lauper, Liza Minnelli? No

is he into musicals? Does opera count? I do enjoy some of the old musicals; Showboat, South Pacific, that era

Yikes! I'm a closet straight guy and didn't even know it!!!!! Shocked
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« Reply #21 on: October 08, 2012, 05:18:54 PM »

 - sigh - God help us.
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« Reply #22 on: October 08, 2012, 05:27:32 PM »



Yikes! I'm a closet straight guy and didn't even know it!!!!! Shocked


It's ok. I hear there are camps you can go to that will "cure" you of that.  laugh
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« Reply #23 on: October 08, 2012, 05:32:12 PM »

A LISP!

Good God....get out the stakes, light the fire, call the villagers with the pitchforks....

Really, a lisp proves nothing.
Answer these in the affirmative and then u might have something.

Does he sashay when he walks?

Is he light in the loafers?

is he limp wristed?

does he wear rainbow colored clothing?

does he listen to...the village people, Boy George, Cindy lauper, Liza Minnelli?

is he into musicals?

Ha, that was fun, couldent help myself.


You left one out:
Wakes up at 3:00am USA time to watch royal weddings and funerals live while drinking Earl Gray out of a Jubilee commerative mug.
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« Reply #24 on: October 08, 2012, 05:34:09 PM »

A LISP!

Good God....get out the stakes, light the fire, call the villagers with the pitchforks....

Really, a lisp proves nothing.
Answer these in the affirmative and then u might have something.

Does he sashay when he walks?

Is he light in the loafers?

is he limp wristed?

does he wear rainbow colored clothing?

does he listen to...the village people, Boy George, Cindy lauper, Liza Minnelli?

is he into musicals?

Ha, that was fun, couldent help myself.


You left one out:
Wakes up at 3:00am USA time to watch royal weddings and funerals live while drinking Earl Gray out of a Jubilee commerative mug.

Wait- when did "British subject living abroad" and "gay" become the same thing?
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« Reply #25 on: October 08, 2012, 06:05:27 PM »

A LISP!

Good God....get out the stakes, light the fire, call the villagers with the pitchforks....

Really, a lisp proves nothing.
Answer these in the affirmative and then u might have something.

Does he sashay when he walks?

Is he light in the loafers?

is he limp wristed?

does he wear rainbow colored clothing?

does he listen to...the village people, Boy George, Cindy lauper, Liza Minnelli?

is he into musicals?

Ha, that was fun, couldent help myself.


You left one out:
Wakes up at 3:00am USA time to watch royal weddings and funerals live while drinking Earl Gray out of a Jubilee commerative mug.

Wait- when did "British subject living abroad" and "gay" become the same thing?

When was it not?
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« Reply #26 on: October 08, 2012, 06:23:01 PM »

A LISP!

Good God....get out the stakes, light the fire, call the villagers with the pitchforks....

Really, a lisp proves nothing.
Answer these in the affirmative and then u might have something.

Does he sashay when he walks?

Is he light in the loafers?

is he limp wristed?

does he wear rainbow colored clothing?

does he listen to...the village people, Boy George, Cindy lauper, Liza Minnelli?

is he into musicals?

Ha, that was fun, couldent help myself.


You left one out:
Wakes up at 3:00am USA time to watch royal weddings and funerals live while drinking Earl Gray out of a Jubilee commerative mug.
I would appreciate it if you lot quit spying on me.  Thank you very much.   Grin
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« Reply #27 on: October 08, 2012, 06:53:01 PM »

You guys are so funny!
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« Reply #28 on: October 08, 2012, 06:53:14 PM »

I always love these twilght zone threads.
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« Reply #29 on: October 08, 2012, 07:18:00 PM »

is he limp wristed?

I had tendonitis in college, but only once.
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« Reply #30 on: October 08, 2012, 08:32:44 PM »

This thread is gay.
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« Reply #31 on: October 08, 2012, 10:14:13 PM »

We ought to focus on our own sins and repent of them.

When it comes to everyone else, we view them as better than ourselves and disbelieve rumors saying, "God knows." And we pray for everyone, especially the clergy, asking God to help them and enlighten them.

Everything else, it seems to me, is from the devil.
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« Reply #32 on: October 08, 2012, 10:23:12 PM »

We ought to focus on our own sins and repent of them.

When it comes to everyone else, we view them as better than ourselves and disbelieve rumors saying, "God knows." And we pray for everyone, especially the clergy, asking God to help them and enlighten them.

Everything else, it seems to me, is from the devil.

easily the post of the month, of this short month so far.
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« Reply #33 on: October 08, 2012, 11:03:55 PM »

I always love these twilght zone threads.

Yeah, I needed a laugh.  Smiley
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« Reply #34 on: October 09, 2012, 12:27:24 AM »

Man shall not lisp with a man as man lispth with a woman...
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« Reply #35 on: October 09, 2012, 12:34:59 AM »

Well I will continue to keep my mouth shut, like I said I was just deeply troubled and I prefer to get things out in the open rather than whispers behind the scenes.
I call b.s.

This is exactly a whisper behind the scene. The only thing you've refrained from doing is naming names.

If you have some communists to accuse, do so, McCarthy.

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« Reply #36 on: October 09, 2012, 01:10:10 AM »

I have been told by certain people (to remain anonymous) that certain Orthodox hierarchs in a certain jurisdiction are in fact homosexuals. Now usually a rumor like that has some basis. One of the hierarchs whom I was told has been a homosexual for years has a noticeable "lisp" that many homosexuals have. Now personally, I have no problem with homosexuals as I am not God and whom am I to judge. However I have never spread these rumors but I have been told one of these hierarchs has paid for his lover's home in the Southeast with church funds. If that is true, I think that should be brought to light to that particular jurisdiction. Now my question is making an accusation against an Orthodox hierarch a "lawsuitable offense"? Please advise me as to what I should do? Part of me wants to hire a private investigator to get further evidence against this hierarch and then post online and pass though out the eparchies. Another part wants to confront the hierarch face to face with the accusation. And yet another part of me wants to look the other way and forget about it. Please advise me as to a correct plan of action.

I'm saddened - but not surprised - by the judgmental, mocking, and condemning attitude with which many people here have responded to your sincere concerns. Personally, I am thankful that you love the Church enough to be concerned about such issues. Unfortunately, many people here on OC.net feel that sincere Christian concern equates to judgmentalism; and in ironic fashion they will hypocritally judge you anytime you dare to mention moral concerns.

My advice - FWIW - is to discuss these concerns with your Priest, pray for the Bishops in question, and then if you believe action is called for, be brave enough to take such action. It would be a tragedy if our Orthodox Churches became scandalized by the sexual immorality and evils that have plagued the Roman Catholic clergy. And I'm sure that many devout Catholics who expressed the same concerns that you have here were told, "mind your own business," "don't judge," and "put a cork in it."

God bless you for caring. Don't let the callous, apathetic ridicule of others dim your Christian conscience.

"Lord have mercy."




Selam
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« Reply #37 on: October 09, 2012, 01:38:25 AM »

I have been told by certain people (to remain anonymous) that certain Orthodox hierarchs in a certain jurisdiction are in fact homosexuals. Now usually a rumor like that has some basis. One of the hierarchs whom I was told has been a homosexual for years has a noticeable "lisp" that many homosexuals have. Now personally, I have no problem with homosexuals as I am not God and whom am I to judge. However I have never spread these rumors but I have been told one of these hierarchs has paid for his lover's home in the Southeast with church funds. If that is true, I think that should be brought to light to that particular jurisdiction. Now my question is making an accusation against an Orthodox hierarch a "lawsuitable offense"? Please advise me as to what I should do? Part of me wants to hire a private investigator to get further evidence against this hierarch and then post online and pass though out the eparchies. Another part wants to confront the hierarch face to face with the accusation. And yet another part of me wants to look the other way and forget about it. Please advise me as to a correct plan of action.

I'm saddened - but not surprised - by the judgmental, mocking, and condemning attitude with which many people here have responded to your sincere concerns. Personally, I am thankful that you love the Church enough to be concerned about such issues. Unfortunately, many people here on OC.net feel that sincere Christian concern equates to judgmentalism; and in ironic fashion they will hypocritally judge you anytime you dare to mention moral concerns.

My advice - FWIW - is to discuss these concerns with your Priest, pray for the Bishops in question, and then if you believe action is called for, be brave enough to take such action. It would be a tragedy if our Orthodox Churches became scandalized by the sexual immorality and evils that have plagued the Roman Catholic clergy. And I'm sure that many devout Catholics who expressed the same concerns that you have here were told, "mind your own business," "don't judge," and "put a cork in it."

God bless you for caring. Don't let the callous, apathetic ridicule of others dim your Christian conscience.

"Lord have mercy."




Selam

Are you seriously comparing bishops having sex with men, consensually, to bishops covering up the rape of children by their priests?  Wow...

I'd also be careful about encouraging him to make accusations; if I recall correctly, there's at least one canon about how any accusations made about a bishop must be made to the bishop's synod, and that a layman who fails to prove his accusation must be excommunicated.
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« Reply #38 on: October 09, 2012, 01:42:51 AM »

I have been told by certain people (to remain anonymous) that certain Orthodox hierarchs in a certain jurisdiction are in fact homosexuals. Now usually a rumor like that has some basis. One of the hierarchs whom I was told has been a homosexual for years has a noticeable "lisp" that many homosexuals have. Now personally, I have no problem with homosexuals as I am not God and whom am I to judge. However I have never spread these rumors but I have been told one of these hierarchs has paid for his lover's home in the Southeast with church funds. If that is true, I think that should be brought to light to that particular jurisdiction. Now my question is making an accusation against an Orthodox hierarch a "lawsuitable offense"? Please advise me as to what I should do? Part of me wants to hire a private investigator to get further evidence against this hierarch and then post online and pass though out the eparchies. Another part wants to confront the hierarch face to face with the accusation. And yet another part of me wants to look the other way and forget about it. Please advise me as to a correct plan of action.

I'm saddened - but not surprised - by the judgmental, mocking, and condemning attitude with which many people here have responded to your sincere concerns. Personally, I am thankful that you love the Church enough to be concerned about such issues. Unfortunately, many people here on OC.net feel that sincere Christian concern equates to judgmentalism; and in ironic fashion they will hypocritally judge you anytime you dare to mention moral concerns.

My advice - FWIW - is to discuss these concerns with your Priest, pray for the Bishops in question, and then if you believe action is called for, be brave enough to take such action. It would be a tragedy if our Orthodox Churches became scandalized by the sexual immorality and evils that have plagued the Roman Catholic clergy. And I'm sure that many devout Catholics who expressed the same concerns that you have here were told, "mind your own business," "don't judge," and "put a cork in it."

God bless you for caring. Don't let the callous, apathetic ridicule of others dim your Christian conscience.

"Lord have mercy."




Selam

Are you seriously comparing bishops having sex with men, consensually, to bishops covering up the rape of children by their priests?  Wow...

I'd also be careful about encouraging him to make accusations; if I recall correctly, there's at least one canon about how any accusations made about a bishop must be made to the bishop's synod, and that a layman who fails to prove his accusation must be excommunicated.

Indeed, spreading rumors about and falsely accusing hierarchs is a grave sin, because it causes scandal (in the true sense of the word, that is, something which may impede the salvation of others), and the canons rightfully declare that people who commit such a sin against the very Body of Christ should be excommunicated.
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« Reply #39 on: October 09, 2012, 02:21:23 AM »

I have been told by certain people (to remain anonymous) that certain Orthodox hierarchs in a certain jurisdiction are in fact homosexuals. Now usually a rumor like that has some basis. One of the hierarchs whom I was told has been a homosexual for years has a noticeable "lisp" that many homosexuals have. Now personally, I have no problem with homosexuals as I am not God and whom am I to judge. However I have never spread these rumors but I have been told one of these hierarchs has paid for his lover's home in the Southeast with church funds. If that is true, I think that should be brought to light to that particular jurisdiction. Now my question is making an accusation against an Orthodox hierarch a "lawsuitable offense"? Please advise me as to what I should do? Part of me wants to hire a private investigator to get further evidence against this hierarch and then post online and pass though out the eparchies. Another part wants to confront the hierarch face to face with the accusation. And yet another part of me wants to look the other way and forget about it. Please advise me as to a correct plan of action.
What if they do have homosexual struggles?  If they do not freely engage in such activity, why are we concerned?  What I'd one suffers from being an alcoholic years ago, or drug addict?  Unless one is openly (or illegally) engaging in activities unbecoming their position and sinful in the eyes of the Church, which apparently they are not since its still a rumor, it's foolhardy to speculate.

And what's with the lisp comment? 

Plan of action?  Stop worrying about t and let the Church deal with its own problems with unfounded rumors.
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« Reply #40 on: October 09, 2012, 02:22:26 AM »

I have been told by certain people (to remain anonymous) that certain Orthodox hierarchs in a certain jurisdiction are in fact homosexuals. Now usually a rumor like that has some basis. One of the hierarchs whom I was told has been a homosexual for years has a noticeable "lisp" that many homosexuals have. Now personally, I have no problem with homosexuals as I am not God and whom am I to judge. However I have never spread these rumors but I have been told one of these hierarchs has paid for his lover's home in the Southeast with church funds. If that is true, I think that should be brought to light to that particular jurisdiction. Now my question is making an accusation against an Orthodox hierarch a "lawsuitable offense"? Please advise me as to what I should do? Part of me wants to hire a private investigator to get further evidence against this hierarch and then post online and pass though out the eparchies. Another part wants to confront the hierarch face to face with the accusation. And yet another part of me wants to look the other way and forget about it. Please advise me as to a correct plan of action.

I'm saddened - but not surprised - by the judgmental, mocking, and condemning attitude with which many people here have responded to your sincere concerns. Personally, I am thankful that you love the Church enough to be concerned about such issues. Unfortunately, many people here on OC.net feel that sincere Christian concern equates to judgmentalism; and in ironic fashion they will hypocritally judge you anytime you dare to mention moral concerns.

My advice - FWIW - is to discuss these concerns with your Priest, pray for the Bishops in question, and then if you believe action is called for, be brave enough to take such action. It would be a tragedy if our Orthodox Churches became scandalized by the sexual immorality and evils that have plagued the Roman Catholic clergy. And I'm sure that many devout Catholics who expressed the same concerns that you have here were told, "mind your own business," "don't judge," and "put a cork in it."

God bless you for caring. Don't let the callous, apathetic ridicule of others dim your Christian conscience.

"Lord have mercy."




Selam

Are you seriously comparing bishops having sex with men, consensually, to bishops covering up the rape of children by their priests?  Wow...

I'd also be careful about encouraging him to make accusations; if I recall correctly, there's at least one canon about how any accusations made about a bishop must be made to the bishop's synod, and that a layman who fails to prove his accusation must be excommunicated.


Never suggested anything of the sort. But I don't expect many people here to actually read what I write. Easier to make false accusations and cast judgment about my intentions, all in the name of "not being judgmental."


Selam
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« Reply #41 on: October 09, 2012, 02:28:00 AM »

 
Plan of action?  Stop worrying about t and let the Church deal with its own problems with unfounded rumors.

But our brother is part of the Church, and he has sincere concerns. I guess we should turn a blind eye and navel gaze until the toothpaste is out of the tube? Do you think the sexual scandals in the Roman Catholic church happened overnight? I'm would bet that lay people who expressed early concerns received the same rebukes our brother has here. So they kept quiet and minded their own business while the poison ran amok. 


Selam
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« Reply #42 on: October 09, 2012, 02:30:59 AM »

And yes, I'll come right out and say it: I would never attend a parish that had an effiminate Priest. And I sure as heck wouldn't let my children anywhere near one. Call me judgmental all you want. I really don't care.



Selam
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« Reply #43 on: October 09, 2012, 02:32:03 AM »

 
Plan of action?  Stop worrying about t and let the Church deal with its own problems with unfounded rumors.

But our brother is part of the Church, and he has sincere concerns. I guess we should turn a blind eye and navel gaze until the toothpaste is out of the tube? Do you think the sexual scandals in the Roman Catholic church happened overnight? I'm would bet that lay people who expressed early concerns received the same rebukes our brother has here. So they kept quiet and minded their own business while the poison ran amok.  


Selam
I actually liked your advice better.  Talk to his priest, but around here this seems to be the standard answer for almost everything.  It makes sense to talk to the priest if for no other reason to alert the Church of the rumors.  But without something of substance, I would not do anything further.  Rumors are just that.
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« Reply #44 on: October 09, 2012, 02:40:10 AM »

 
Plan of action?  Stop worrying about t and let the Church deal with its own problems with unfounded rumors.

But our brother is part of the Church, and he has sincere concerns. I guess we should turn a blind eye and navel gaze until the toothpaste is out of the tube? Do you think the sexual scandals in the Roman Catholic church happened overnight? I'm would bet that lay people who expressed early concerns received the same rebukes our brother has here. So they kept quiet and minded their own business while the poison ran amok.  


Selam
I actually liked your advice better.  Talk to his priest, but around here this seems to be the standard answer for almost everything.  It makes sense to talk to the priest if for no other reason to alert the Church of the rumors.  But without something of substance, I would not do anything further.  Rumors are just that.

Yeah, I agree.


Selam
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« Reply #45 on: October 09, 2012, 02:40:46 AM »

And yes, I'll come right out and say it: I would never attend a parish that had an effiminate Priest. And I sure as heck wouldn't let my children anywhere near one. Call me judgmental all you want. I really don't care.



Selam

Don't worry, I won't call you judgmental; I'll call you a bigot.
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« Reply #46 on: October 09, 2012, 02:56:12 AM »

And yes, I'll come right out and say it: I would never attend a parish that had an effiminate Priest. And I sure as heck wouldn't let my children anywhere near one. Call me judgmental all you want. I really don't care.



Selam

Don't worry, I won't call you judgmental; I'll call you a bigot.
Really?  And just why would you lower yourself to such a level?  As we have learned, definitions today are subjective. Calling him names doesn't make it true.  It just shows your anger, so lets stop with the name calling.  This isn't middle school.
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« Reply #47 on: October 09, 2012, 04:12:49 AM »

And yes, I'll come right out and say it: I would never attend a parish that had an effiminate Priest. And I sure as heck wouldn't let my children anywhere near one. Call me judgmental all you want. I really don't care.



Selam

Gebre, that is really disappointing. It's bad enough that actual homosexuals have to suffer the unfair prejudice of Christians, but now even perceived homosexuals are apparently subject to the same (I can only assume your objection to effiminancy arises out of a perceived nexus with homosexuality).
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« Reply #48 on: October 09, 2012, 04:18:27 AM »

And yes, I'll come right out and say it: I would never attend a parish that had an effiminate Priest. And I sure as heck wouldn't let my children anywhere near one. Call me judgmental all you want. I really don't care.

Have you ever seen a video of Elder Ephraim of Arizona? A champion of conservative Orthodox traditionalism in America, but very effeminate.
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« Reply #49 on: October 09, 2012, 04:36:45 AM »

And yes, I'll come right out and say it: I would never attend a parish that had an effiminate Priest.

Orthodox priests have long hair and they wear funny hats and weirdo black dresses. Are you exactly sure you've chosen right religion for you? police
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« Reply #50 on: October 09, 2012, 05:11:51 AM »

Whether you agree with his (Gebre) view, I'm not sure why you are attacking him for having that view.  If he can not grow in an environment as he described, should he not find a place he can?  You chastise him for his view by doing the very thing he did.  How does this make sense?  Why not just allow him to feel the way he does about it instead of attacking that view.  Why not simply say, "I see what you are saying, but I disagree based on..."  I wouldn't attend a parish if the priest stated he thought marijuana should be legalized.  I'm sure there are things which would, or have, kept you from a particular parish.  Just think about it.
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« Reply #51 on: October 09, 2012, 05:28:12 AM »

Labeling someone as effeminate and homosexual on the basis of a speech impediment is high-handed, inaccurate, and totally unjustified. It is this that I suspect akimori is objecting to. I do, as well.

There is an Orthodox priest of long and distinguished service, and of unimpeachable integrity, in my neck of the woods who lisps. I'd dare anyone to accuse him of being homosexual or effeminate to his face.  Shocked Shocked Shocked

And there are plenty of homosexual men who show no sign at all of effeminacy or distinctive speech.
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« Reply #52 on: October 09, 2012, 05:38:22 AM »

And yes, I'll come right out and say it: I would never attend a parish that had an effiminate Priest. And I sure as heck wouldn't let my children anywhere near one. Call me judgmental all you want. I really don't care.

Have you ever seen a video of Elder Ephraim of Arizona? A champion of conservative Orthodox traditionalism in America, but very effeminate.


I wouldn't consider him effeminate at all. Having a high pitched voice is not my definition of effeminate.


Selam
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« Reply #53 on: October 09, 2012, 08:40:16 AM »

And yes, I'll come right out and say it: I would never attend a parish that had an effiminate Priest. And I sure as heck wouldn't let my children anywhere near one. Call me judgmental all you want. I really don't care.

Have you ever seen a video of Elder Ephraim of Arizona? A champion of conservative Orthodox traditionalism in America, but very effeminate.


I wouldn't consider him effeminate at all. Having a high pitched voice is not my definition of effeminate.


Selam
Then, perhaps your definition would be appreciated here. Very rarely do I disagree with you and like some others, I'm slightly perplexed by your stand. Does "effeminate" mean "he cooks" "he likes to arrange flowers" "he's a hairstylist" "he wears a pink tie" Any of the above? or All of the above?

You may mean "creepy touchy feely" which is something else altogether - and often more perceived than in actual fact realized.

Please help me understand what you're getting at.
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« Reply #54 on: October 09, 2012, 08:53:21 AM »

 
Plan of action?  Stop worrying about t and let the Church deal with its own problems with unfounded rumors.

But our brother is part of the Church, and he has sincere concerns. I guess we should turn a blind eye and navel gaze until the toothpaste is out of the tube? Do you think the sexual scandals in the Roman Catholic church happened overnight? I'm would bet that lay people who expressed early concerns received the same rebukes our brother has here. So they kept quiet and minded their own business while the poison ran amok. 


Selam

Calumniating a hierarch on the basis of his voice "sounding gay" and hearsay is inexcusable. It hurts the faithful without any particular reason to do so. Again, if this poster had a strong case for his suspicions, this would be a different matter, but the evidence here presented is ridiculous, and it is absurd and foolish beyond belief to suggest that he should take action based on what he has written so far. I am glad to see that most of this board is not inclined to encourage the same type of vomit and scandal-seeking behavior (the stuff we presumably left behind at baptism) as you are encouraging. With people to write things like this, the devil need not do anything to lead people into perdition, as when you write things like this, you do his work and sow tares into the fields of the Lord.
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« Reply #55 on: October 09, 2012, 10:06:13 AM »

 
Plan of action?  Stop worrying about t and let the Church deal with its own problems with unfounded rumors.

But our brother is part of the Church, and he has sincere concerns. I guess we should turn a blind eye and navel gaze until the toothpaste is out of the tube? Do you think the sexual scandals in the Roman Catholic church happened overnight? I'm would bet that lay people who expressed early concerns received the same rebukes our brother has here. So they kept quiet and minded their own business while the poison ran amok. 


Selam

Calumniating a hierarch on the basis of his voice "sounding gay" and hearsay is inexcusable. It hurts the faithful without any particular reason to do so. Again, if this poster had a strong case for his suspicions, this would be a different matter, but the evidence here presented is ridiculous, and it is absurd and foolish beyond belief to suggest that he should take action based on what he has written so far. I am glad to see that most of this board is not inclined to encourage the same type of vomit and scandal-seeking behavior (the stuff we presumably left behind at baptism) as you are encouraging. With people to write things like this, the devil need not do anything to lead people into perdition, as when you write things like this, you do his work and sow tares into the fields of the Lord.

Not just hierarchs, that goes for stereotyping anyone based on preconceptions.
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« Reply #56 on: October 09, 2012, 10:23:50 AM »

And yes, I'll come right out and say it: I would never attend a parish that had an effiminate Priest. And I sure as heck wouldn't let my children anywhere near one. Call me judgmental all you want. I really don't care.



Selam

Gebre, I watch My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic, I'm masculine in all other categories of my life, but if you saw me wearing a cartoon pony on my shirt, would you consider me Effeminate? If so, you wouldn't let your kids around me because of that?

Being effeminate doesn't mean you are gay, or pedophiliac, it just means silly gender stereotypes don't bend your way all the time.
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« Reply #57 on: October 09, 2012, 10:55:39 AM »

Fr. Seraphim Rose was homosexual, what of if?

An attraction isn't a sin. Homosexual attraction isn't much different from heterosexual, it is the lust and sexual immorality which is evil.
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« Reply #58 on: October 09, 2012, 01:07:02 PM »

 
Plan of action?  Stop worrying about t and let the Church deal with its own problems with unfounded rumors.

But our brother is part of the Church, and he has sincere concerns. I guess we should turn a blind eye and navel gaze until the toothpaste is out of the tube? Do you think the sexual scandals in the Roman Catholic church happened overnight? I'm would bet that lay people who expressed early concerns received the same rebukes our brother has here. So they kept quiet and minded their own business while the poison ran amok. 


Selam

Calumniating a hierarch on the basis of his voice "sounding gay" and hearsay is inexcusable. It hurts the faithful without any particular reason to do so. Again, if this poster had a strong case for his suspicions, this would be a different matter, but the evidence here presented is ridiculous, and it is absurd and foolish beyond belief to suggest that he should take action based on what he has written so far. I am glad to see that most of this board is not inclined to encourage the same type of vomit and scandal-seeking behavior (the stuff we presumably left behind at baptism) as you are encouraging. With people to write things like this, the devil need not do anything to lead people into perdition, as when you write things like this, you do his work and sow tares into the fields of the Lord.

Not just hierarchs, that goes for stereotyping anyone based on preconceptions.

I agree.
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« Reply #59 on: October 09, 2012, 01:51:43 PM »

I have been told by certain people (to remain anonymous) that certain Orthodox hierarchs in a certain jurisdiction are in fact homosexuals. Now usually a rumor like that has some basis. One of the hierarchs whom I was told has been a homosexual for years has a noticeable "lisp" that many homosexuals have. Now personally, I have no problem with homosexuals as I am not God and whom am I to judge. However I have never spread these rumors but I have been told one of these hierarchs has paid for his lover's home in the Southeast with church funds. If that is true, I think that should be brought to light to that particular jurisdiction. Now my question is making an accusation against an Orthodox hierarch a "lawsuitable offense"? Please advise me as to what I should do? Part of me wants to hire a private investigator to get further evidence against this hierarch and then post online and pass though out the eparchies. Another part wants to confront the hierarch face to face with the accusation. And yet another part of me wants to look the other way and forget about it. Please advise me as to a correct plan of action.

I'm saddened - but not surprised - by the judgmental, mocking, and condemning attitude with which many people here have responded to your sincere concerns. Personally, I am thankful that you love the Church enough to be concerned about such issues. Unfortunately, many people here on OC.net feel that sincere Christian concern equates to judgmentalism; and in ironic fashion they will hypocritally judge you anytime you dare to mention moral concerns.

My advice - FWIW - is to discuss these concerns with your Priest, pray for the Bishops in question, and then if you believe action is called for, be brave enough to take such action. It would be a tragedy if our Orthodox Churches became scandalized by the sexual immorality and evils that have plagued the Roman Catholic clergy. And I'm sure that many devout Catholics who expressed the same concerns that you have here were told, "mind your own business," "don't judge," and "put a cork in it."

God bless you for caring. Don't let the callous, apathetic ridicule of others dim your Christian conscience.

"Lord have mercy."




Selam

Are you seriously comparing bishops having sex with men, consensually, to bishops covering up the rape of children by their priests?  Wow...

I'd also be careful about encouraging him to make accusations; if I recall correctly, there's at least one canon about how any accusations made about a bishop must be made to the bishop's synod, and that a layman who fails to prove his accusation must be excommunicated.


Never suggested anything of the sort. But I don't expect many people here to actually read what I write. Easier to make false accusations and cast judgment about my intentions, all in the name of "not being judgmental."


Selam

Gebre, that's hardly fair. You praised the OP for his moral concern, and urged him to be brave enough to take action because it would be a tragedy for the Orthodox Church to be scandalized "by the sexual immorality and evils that have plagued the Roman Catholic clergy." You directly contrasted this situation to the Catholic scandals. It is only logical for your reader to believe that you absolutely were comparing the two situations. Don't be credulous because it suits you. If that wasn't your intention, then it was a most unfortunate word choice.

As to the situation in the OP being a valid moral concern- I can't see in what universe it could be. It's totally hearsay without any sort of foundation. It's not as if a bishop came to the OP and said, "Hey, can you watch my dog while my lover and I go to his new home in the Southeast?" His entire "case" amounts to: heard it from a friend who heard it from a friend who heard it from another that this guy has a lisp.

Is it a good thing that OP is concerned with the morality of the Church? Sure, but I suggest that that best starts at home. In the words of my second grade teacher: tend your own garden.
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« Reply #60 on: October 09, 2012, 02:02:35 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!


Brother Gebre Menfes Kiddus, I am not joining a chorus of litanies against you, but I must confess, you greatly misspoke and that has ruffled many feathers.  Kerdy I feel has defended you well enough, but I will add this personal note.  Brother, we have to have faith in the integrity of the Church, even when we misunderstand her members, her clerics, her structures, her approach.  We are ALL sinners there, period.  So we learn in faith and love to cooperate towards mutual repentance.  It isn't about casting our own personal judgments, its precisely about finding a private internal place in prayer during the Liturgy services to let that stuff go and live in the love of God.  So if we are going around making judgments against the Church, be they legitimate concerns or not, we are getting ahead of ourselves.  Would we like the Church to make the same judgments against us? Would you have been content if all the priests you've experienced said, "I won't serve or lead prayer in a Church with Rastafari brothers and sisters with dreadlocks and different style of dress?"  Believe there are many people (and several on OC.net have already vehemently expressed these concerns) who feel very strongly against Rastafari culture and manners of dress, and these often want Rastafari folks up out of the Church.  Others have issues with the way some young women dress, others with the way some people may have issues with alcohol, or some people have prejudice against poverty and poor folks.  However, what sets the Church apart, is we let all our grievances go at the door.  They will be right there waiting for us after we leave the Church to pick up where they left off, but at the Church, we have to trust in God.  If we have issues with our priests (and who here hasn't?), we need to sort that out in prayer.  However drawing lines in the sand will only hurt ourselves, not the Church, not the priests.  So why should we let our own judgments hurt ourselves and our relationship with the Church?

If there were serious and legitimate concerns about any priests and sexual activity or even sexual interest in children, these should be immediately reported to the Bishops, if not the proper legal authorities.  However, if a priest is effiminate, or otherwise different from conventional cultural norms, that is not ours to judge the Church on.  When we walk away from the Church for any reason, we only are cutting off our own noses to spite our faces.

I will pray about these crucially crucial matters, but we all need to continually cultivate Faith in our Church to quell the surging storms of doubt that Apostle James mentions in the fourth chapter of His Epistle.

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #61 on: October 09, 2012, 02:24:32 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!


Brother Gebre Menfes Kiddus, I am not joining a chorus of litanies against you, but I must confess, you greatly misspoke and that has ruffled many feathers.  Kerdy I feel has defended you well enough, but I will add this personal note.  Brother, we have to have faith in the integrity of the Church, even when we misunderstand her members, her clerics, her structures, her approach.  We are ALL sinners there, period.  So we learn in faith and love to cooperate towards mutual repentance.  It isn't about casting our own personal judgments, its precisely about finding a private internal place in prayer during the Liturgy services to let that stuff go and live in the love of God.  So if we are going around making judgments against the Church, be they legitimate concerns or not, we are getting ahead of ourselves.  Would we like the Church to make the same judgments against us? Would you have been content if all the priests you've experienced said, "I won't serve or lead prayer in a Church with Rastafari brothers and sisters with dreadlocks and different style of dress?"  Believe there are many people (and several on OC.net have already vehemently expressed these concerns) who feel very strongly against Rastafari culture and manners of dress, and these often want Rastafari folks up out of the Church.  Others have issues with the way some young women dress, others with the way some people may have issues with alcohol, or some people have prejudice against poverty and poor folks.  However, what sets the Church apart, is we let all our grievances go at the door.  They will be right there waiting for us after we leave the Church to pick up where they left off, but at the Church, we have to trust in God.  If we have issues with our priests (and who here hasn't?), we need to sort that out in prayer.  However drawing lines in the sand will only hurt ourselves, not the Church, not the priests.  So why should we let our own judgments hurt ourselves and our relationship with the Church?

If there were serious and legitimate concerns about any priests and sexual activity or even sexual interest in children, these should be immediately reported to the Bishops, if not the proper legal authorities.  However, if a priest is effiminate, or otherwise different from conventional cultural norms, that is not ours to judge the Church on.  When we walk away from the Church for any reason, we only are cutting off our own noses to spite our faces.

I will pray about these crucially crucial matters, but we all need to continually cultivate Faith in our Church to quell the surging storms of doubt that Apostle James mentions in the fourth chapter of His Epistle.

stay blessed,
habte selassie

Well said!

but with that in mind a line must eventually be drawn somewhere, lest we have nudist attending church.

And i personally draw it at------BAGY PANTS---showing us your underwear------they call it underwear for a reason, think abt it!
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« Reply #62 on: October 09, 2012, 02:35:08 PM »

Quote
“I have been told by certain people (to remain anonymous) that certain Orthodox hierarchs in a certain jurisdiction are in fact homosexuals.”

Do you see what you are saying? You have been told; it’s not that you saw the deed yourself; it’s not that you have any substantial facts, but only rumors, rumors disseminated by certain people whose business it is to disseminate rumors and wait for the after effect to take hold. People just by looking at how much they are engaged in attacking and defaming the hierarchs behind their backs slandering their names viciously to anyone who would lend them ears, who if they had any shred of facts would not have hesitated to expose those hierarchs but because they do not have any substantial facts they are content to eat the flesh of their shepherds. Christians in name only, who neither hear the Lord nor do they have any love for the Church. False brethren, wolves who lurk among the sheep, who ignore the commandment ‘you shall not give false witness’’ and follow the accuser’s path and imitate the Evil One the Accuser of our brethren.

Quote
“Now usually a rumor like that has some basis.”

A rumor like what? What basis? An assumed, imagined farfetched basis? Like the one they are telling you? The so called Christians who don’t want to follow proper channel but are gleefully spreading a slander on the good name of the shepherds behind their backs just so they may act like spiritual people concerned for the Church? Oh please! Open your eyes, flee such serpentine malicious fallacious logic if they care about the church, they would have their facts and take it to the proper channel within the Church, and not engage in unchristian, malicious manner. Do you know the value of a good name? Do you know what a simple accusation would do even if when it is proven that the accusations are false? Do you know how many people are going to be hurt by such baseless none factual, accusations? A rumor, a rumor a rumor a rumor without a fact to back it up is simply a rumor, when people start to attack other people with unsubstantiated rumor it is murder. Worse it’s a prolonged torture, heart ache suffering, and crucifixion of the innocent. I hope you truly understand what living under such cloud of false accusation means to the innocent accused, I hope you and others truly taste and know what it feels like to endure 10 minutes of such a state let alone to watch an hour facing such a cross.

Quote
“One of the hierarchs whom I was told has been a homosexual for years has a noticeable "lisp" that many homosexuals have.”

Look at what they have you believing, an utter lie, and a lisp as a sign of homosexuality?! Wow is that your version of homosexual profiling? It walks like a duck it quacks like a duck it’s a duck, is what God gave the Reverend Father that made you judge him in such a way? God knows what you would have done if you really have something concrete and you had factual evidence that the Reverend Father had committed a homosexual act with a consenting adult. What happened to your sins that he shoulders, the countless sins he hears every day and conceals them with love and integrity, and you find him committing not a crime but a sin, you who have been forgiven so much, go around strutting about considering broadcasting his sins to the world. What did St. Macarius the Great do when he found out his brother the monk was committing fornication right in the monastery? for that matter what kind of false accusation did St. Macarius faced? What did Abba Anthony the great do?

A brother in a monastery was falsely accused of fornication and he arose and went to Abba Anthony. The brethren also came from the monastery to correct him and bring him back. They set about proving that he had done this thing, but he defended himself and denied that he had done anything of the kind. Now Abba Paphnutius, who is called Cephalus, happened to be there, and he told them this parable: "I have seen a man on the bank of the river buried up to his knees in mud and some men came to give him a hand to help him out, but they pushed him further in up to his neck." Then Abba Anthony said this about Abba Paphnutius: "Here is a real man, who can care for souls and save them." All those present were pierced to the heart by the words of the old man and they asked forgiveness of the brother. So, admonished by the Fathers, they took the brother back to the monastery.

How many of the desert fathers were accused of sexual immorality falsely? And how many of the brothers the monks have gotten up after falling in sexual sin by the merciful spiritual care of their brothers? What you have is rumors, even if there is a remote possibility that a sin is being committed between two consenting adults,  and you know of it for a fact and  you feel you must speak then speak using the proper channel of the Church, in a manner that will help your wounded Father the Shepherd, spiritually. The other sick malicious rumor spreading that is being acted upon by those people who told you that rumor is without a doubt intended to harm the Reverend Fathers, it comes without a doubt from the Evil One, hear me my brother, I beg you, if you are a practicing orthodox and go to the Divine Liturgy, do not approach the Chalice without confessing this grave sin you are in. I don’t go around saying this to people, but you my brother it is not by accident that you came to this forum and God’s providence is reaching out to you save yourself and perhaps partake of the grace and blessing that comes from standing with your shepherd and being counted when the wolves attack him. So Repent of this.

Quote
“However I have never spread these rumors but I have been told one of these hierarchs has paid for his lover's home in the Southeast with church funds.”

This is not true, you are spreading rumors, in fact in this very same sentence you pile it up even more, you bring out a big accusation, of sexual immorality plus  theft from the Church all based on a rumor. Have they no fear of God? Have you? To utter such things without anything to back it up is a terrible terrible thing. You have been used my brother, by those people and by the evil one.

Quote
“If that is true, I think that should be brought to light to that particular jurisdiction”

If that was true, why didn’t those who have the facts and are concerned about the Bishops and the Church go to that particular jurisdiction proper chain of command? Instead of yammering about such things to whoever is willing to listen, and harming the church in this way? Doesn’t the jurisdiction have its own ways of dealing with financial discrepancies and ways to report such discrepancies?

Quote
“Part of me wants to hire a private investigator to get further evidence against this hierarch and then post online and pass though out the eparchies.”


 What you should have done was hold those Tilly tallies by their throat and demand that they bring their solid evidence (nothing under the category of the lisp evidence) right away or apologize to the Bishops your fathers for spreading such rumors.as to posting online really??? May the Lord shelter you from committing such a blunder!

Quote
Now my question is making an accusation against an Orthodox hierarch a "law suitable offense"?

 false accusation can always be a” law suitable” offense, but you have something more to worry about, if you do not judge yourself, Judgment will come upon you and there is no partiality. Know what sort of thing you got yourself into all based on rumors!

Quote
“Another part wants to confront the hierarch face to face with the accusation.”

Confront him about accusations based on what exactly? What facts do you have to give weight to such rumors enough to as you have put it ‘ confront him?’ whatever happened to the Fear of God that should reign in our hearts my brother? If your father was being slandered behind his back by some people of cheating on your mother and those people come and told you their version of fallacious evidence how would you react, does that seem more real to you than the shepherd of the Church being accused with no real evidence, perhaps you would  do more for your biological father’s reputation, now if you are a Christian as you claim to be, go out and put as much effort into fighting baseless rumors and ignorant profiling, malicious attacks of the evil one and his servants against your Fathers  those shepherds of the Church.


Lord have mercy!
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« Reply #63 on: October 09, 2012, 04:05:40 PM »

I am not going to tolerate drive-by attacks on our hierarchs--of any jurisdiction. If anyone wants to do spew their filth, they can go ahead and post on Monomakhos. Thanks, Carl Kraeff
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