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Author Topic: Tom Hanks 'testimonial' in Russia's Orthodox Church ad  (Read 6729 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: October 08, 2012, 02:05:38 PM »

Moscow, Oct 8 - Russia's Orthodox Church launches a large-scale advertising campaign in Russia, Ukraine and Belarus. Having been at the center of a public debate on its role in society and its relations with the State, The Russian Orthodox Church decided to use some world-renowned big shot movie stars like Tom Hanks as testimonials. According to Moscow's Radio Eco, advertising billboards portraying famous faces from the world of entertainment, sports and culture will be put up in the three Countries on the occasion of the feast of the Virgin on 13 and 14 October, within the framework of the "We, Orthodox" celebration.

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« Reply #1 on: October 09, 2012, 02:10:55 PM »

(Un)fortunately Hanks is the only one non-CIS celebrity that would be pictured on the posters. I wonder, does he know about that.
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« Reply #2 on: October 09, 2012, 02:16:35 PM »

(Un)fortunately Hanks is the only one non-CIS celebrity that would be pictured on the posters. I wonder, does he know about that.

Who are the others pictured?

Which other non-CIS celebrity could/should have been pictured? Emir Kusturica maybe?
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« Reply #3 on: October 09, 2012, 02:31:10 PM »

Who are the others pictured?

Eg. Sophia Rotaru, Fiodor Emelianenko, dc. Konyukhov, Buranovo Grannies, Nykyta Mikhawkov... Mostly Russian or Soviet sportsmen, musicians and actors.
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« Reply #4 on: October 09, 2012, 03:17:14 PM »

I will convert to Russian Orthodox if Tom Hanks becomes Patriarch
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« Reply #5 on: October 09, 2012, 03:25:35 PM »

The should have used yiayia.

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« Reply #6 on: October 09, 2012, 03:32:40 PM »

Here is a link  to the pictures from this campaign----

http://vk.com/album-43027103_162709633
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« Reply #7 on: October 09, 2012, 06:27:25 PM »

I will convert to Russian Orthodox if Tom Hanks becomes Patriarch

He'd have to become a monk first.  Wink
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« Reply #8 on: October 09, 2012, 06:45:39 PM »

I will convert to Russian Orthodox if Tom Hanks becomes Patriarch

He'd have to become a monk first.  Wink

His main reason for conversion might have something to say about that  laugh
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« Reply #9 on: October 09, 2012, 06:46:47 PM »

I will convert to Russian Orthodox if Tom Hanks becomes Patriarch

He'd have to become a monk first.  Wink

His main reason for conversion might have something to say about that  laugh

I know.  Wink
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« Reply #10 on: October 09, 2012, 06:51:39 PM »

He could divorce her...
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« Reply #11 on: October 09, 2012, 07:10:57 PM »

Can't they just agree to both retire to the monastic life for the sake of their souls?  police
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« Reply #12 on: October 09, 2012, 07:11:33 PM »

Can't they just agree to both retire to the monastic life for the sake of their souls?  police

That's what I mean.
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« Reply #13 on: October 10, 2012, 03:31:33 AM »

I will convert to Russian Orthodox if Tom Hanks becomes Patriarch

He'd have to become a monk first.  Wink

That'd be an idea - then there'd be no danger of me seeing any more of his films.

James
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« Reply #14 on: October 12, 2012, 01:34:10 AM »

I am surprised that the Russian Orthodox Church would use a man in their ads who espouses views that the Church has unabashedly condemned.
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« Reply #15 on: October 12, 2012, 02:33:06 AM »

I am surprised that the Russian Orthodox Church would use a man in their ads who espouses views that the Church has unabashedly condemned.
Which views are those? He's never supported the Da Vinci Code and in fact said it is just fiction and doesn't reflect his views.
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« Reply #16 on: October 12, 2012, 12:57:49 PM »

For one, his staunch support of gay marriage, going so far as to criticize churches that don't endorse it.
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« Reply #17 on: October 12, 2012, 01:04:12 PM »

For one, his staunch support of gay marriage, going so far as to criticize churches that don't endorse it.

Proofs where he says the Orthodox Church should perform gay marriages?
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« Reply #18 on: October 12, 2012, 01:19:15 PM »

That has nothing to do with it, this example of an OC.netter trying to find a loophole to avoid "culture wars" will not work.

The Russian Orthodox Church used Tom Hanks in one of their Orthodoxy ads.

The Russian Orthodox Church has combatted gay marriage being performed at all within the Russian Federation.

Tom Hanks supports legalizing gay marriage, and has sweepingly condemned churches that disagree with gay marriage.
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« Reply #19 on: October 12, 2012, 01:21:11 PM »

Tom Hanks supports legalizing gay marriage, and has sweepingly condemned churches that disagree with gay marriage.

Waiting for the source...
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« Reply #20 on: October 12, 2012, 01:27:58 PM »

Tom Hanks supports legalizing gay marriage, and has sweepingly condemned churches that disagree with gay marriage.

Waiting for the source...

Me too.
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« Reply #21 on: October 12, 2012, 01:29:29 PM »

Tom Hanks supports legalizing gay marriage, and has sweepingly condemned churches that disagree with gay marriage.

Waiting for the source...

Here:

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« Reply #22 on: October 12, 2012, 01:32:58 PM »

Tom Hanks supports legalizing gay marriage, and has sweepingly condemned churches that disagree with gay marriage.

Waiting for the source...

Here:



Where in that movie the Orthodox Church is mentioned?
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« Reply #23 on: October 12, 2012, 01:51:33 PM »

Tom Hanks supports legalizing gay marriage, and has sweepingly condemned churches that disagree with gay marriage.

Waiting for the source...

Here:



Where in that movie the Orthodox Church is mentioned?
What does that matter in the slightest?

He was a vocal detractor of Proposition 8 in California, that sought to make marriage between a man and a woman. It's plastered all over the net.
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« Reply #24 on: October 12, 2012, 01:56:12 PM »

Tom Hanks supports legalizing gay marriage, and has sweepingly condemned churches that disagree with gay marriage.

Waiting for the source...

Here:



Where in that movie the Orthodox Church is mentioned?

He was gay in that movie, so it is proof that he supports gay marriage, I guess :p
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« Reply #25 on: October 12, 2012, 01:56:46 PM »

Tom Hanks supports legalizing gay marriage, and has sweepingly condemned churches that disagree with gay marriage.

Waiting for the source...

Here:



Where in that movie the Orthodox Church is mentioned?
What does that matter in the slightest?

He was a vocal detractor of Proposition 8 in California, that sought to make marriage between a man and a woman. It's plastered all over the net.

Does that proposition force the Orthodox Church to perform gay marriages?
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« Reply #26 on: October 12, 2012, 01:58:31 PM »

He was a vocal detractor of Proposition 8 in California, that sought to make marriage between a man and a woman. It's plastered all over the net.

Was he Orthodox then?

And how does that differ from the reaction of people on this forum about the ban on the Pride Parade in Serbia (in that a lot of people here who are Orthodox oppose the banning of the parade)?
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« Reply #27 on: October 12, 2012, 03:27:31 PM »

While I'm against gay marriage, I will say that there may be some Orthodox with the opinion that while they oppose sexual immorality (including homosexuality) and oppose homosexual marriage in the Orthodox Church, they may not be in favor of banning homosexual marriage for everyone (including non-Orthodox). There was a time that I felt that way as well.

Tom Hanks acting in a movie doesn't mean a thing. Look at the Da Vinci Code series, and he has never endorsed it nor said it was true. In fact he's said the opposite, and that it was fiction, not to be taken as historical reality.

Things aren't always black and white. Someone could be for gay marriage and against sexual immorality. They could be against abortion, but pro-choice. They could be both Orthodox and believe in evolution. One doesn't necessarily exclude the other.

I have a best friend who is gay. If he gets married, I won't attend his wedding, but I don't feel right telling him he can't get married, even though in our state it wouldn't be recognized legally. I support him and hope he is happy, while at the same time I recognize that any sexual activity outside of marriage is wrong, and the only true marriage is between one man and one woman.

I have a relative who is a freemason, does that mean I reject him or tell him he's a part of an evil organization? Does he have a right to be a part of it? Yes he does, even if it isn't right.

Yes I know I'm bordering on politics here, but I feel that the discussion about Hanks' "Orthodoxy" inevitably would intersect with a degree of politics, since the issues of morality involve both faith and politics.
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« Reply #28 on: October 12, 2012, 06:31:18 PM »

Civil marriage is a civil issue. Is there any evidence that Mr. Hanks asked for Orthodox Church marriage to be made available for same-sex couples?
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« Reply #29 on: October 12, 2012, 06:49:26 PM »

So far no politics.   police   but this ^ gets mighty close.   police
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« Reply #30 on: October 12, 2012, 07:34:13 PM »

Tom Hanks supports legalizing gay marriage, and has sweepingly condemned churches that disagree with gay marriage.

Waiting for the source...

A quick Google search shows his opposition of Prop 8 and LDS' support of it, and his calling those that oppose gay marriage as "un-American," or something to that effect. I would post a link but not at a computer at the moment.
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« Reply #31 on: October 12, 2012, 07:59:46 PM »

and his calling those that oppose gay marriage as "un-American," or something to that effect.
Once again, this is a statement about civil rights, nothing that could raise qustions about his Orthodoxy.
If no one can produce a specific statement asking for church weddings, I consider the case closed.
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« Reply #32 on: October 12, 2012, 08:06:44 PM »

and his calling those that oppose gay marriage as "un-American," or something to that effect.
Once again, this is a statement about civil rights, nothing that could raise qustions about his Orthodoxy.
If no one can produce a specific statement asking for church weddings, I consider the case closed.

Can one support civil rights that is against Church teaching and still be Orthodox?
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« Reply #33 on: October 12, 2012, 08:20:26 PM »

Can one support civil rights that is against Church teaching and still be Orthodox?
The whole institution of civil marriage has nothing to do with church teaching anyway. Even in heterosexual couples you have the abilit to marry non-Christians, no fault divorce and the ability to marry more than 3 times in your life etc.
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« Reply #34 on: October 12, 2012, 10:37:04 PM »

and his calling those that oppose gay marriage as "un-American," or something to that effect.
Once again, this is a statement about civil rights, nothing that could raise qustions about his Orthodoxy.
If no one can produce a specific statement asking for church weddings, I consider the case closed.

I was pointing you in the direction of the sources you asked for when Antonis said, "Tom Hanks supports legalizing gay marriage, and has sweepingly condemned churches that disagree with gay marriage." That is all.
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« Reply #35 on: October 12, 2012, 11:46:17 PM »

Can one support civil rights that is against Church teaching and still be Orthodox?
The whole institution of civil marriage has nothing to do with church teaching anyway. Even in heterosexual couples you have the abilit to marry non-Christians, no fault divorce and the ability to marry more than 3 times in your life etc.

But then how many of us support that anyway?  Are we allowed to support no fault divorce?  Sure, the secular government can do what they want to do.  But as Orthodox Christians, can we support that being it against our faith?

I'm going here with "NO".  We are asked in scripture to detach ourselves from this world, and these are the things which the scriptures talk about.  Sure, we can't do anything if a government wants to marry two men, but we shouldn't support it.
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« Reply #36 on: October 13, 2012, 12:23:34 AM »

Civil marriage is a civil issue. Is there any evidence that Mr. Hanks asked for Orthodox Church marriage to be made available for same-sex couples?

Has the Church of Russia embraced civil gay marriage?
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« Reply #37 on: October 13, 2012, 12:25:30 AM »

and his calling those that oppose gay marriage as "un-American," or something to that effect.
Once again, this is a statement about civil rights, nothing that could raise qustions about his Orthodoxy.
If no one can produce a specific statement asking for church weddings, I consider the case closed.

It seems only certain people on this thread are dividing the issue into church gay marriage vs. civil gay marraige. Not everyone believes a distinction is important--that is, that Orthodox can or should support civill gay marraige.
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« Reply #38 on: October 13, 2012, 12:32:56 AM »

He was a vocal detractor of Proposition 8 in California, that sought to make marriage between a man and a woman. It's plastered all over the net.

I also opposed Proposition 8.
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« Reply #39 on: October 13, 2012, 12:35:31 AM »

It seems only certain people on this thread are dividing the issue into church gay marriage vs. civil gay marraige. Not everyone believes a distinction is important--that is, that Orthodox can or should support civill gay marraige.

Should Orthodox people support something that will lead other people away from Orthodoxy?

Can Orthodox support genocide as long as it is the state doing the genocide and not the Church?  And perhaps as long as those being killed are not Orthodox?  Can the Orthodox support incest and pedophilia?
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« Reply #40 on: October 13, 2012, 04:03:12 AM »

Our stance on civil (not church) marriage remains fundamentally a civil, or even a political issue. Some here seem to argue that civil regulations be conformed to canons within the Church. While that view is worth discussing (and before I enter into that, I will wait whether the moderators say it should be done in the Politics section), this view has never been dogmatised or even agreed upon by the Church.

On the contrary, I might just point to the fact that many Greek-American politicians are members in good standing and even received official honours, in spite of endorsing legal abortion. (I hope we all agree that abortion is worse than gay marriage, because one is murder and the other isn't). So I would conclude from that, that it is not necessary that you want civil law to be in conformity with Church canons, in order to be a church member in good standing. And I believe this applies even to the Moscow Patriarchate: Whereas the MP has expressed a preference for a legal abortion ban in Russia, they have never exclued President Putin from communion or whatever, because he hasnt enacted one.
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« Reply #41 on: October 13, 2012, 07:19:08 AM »

It seems only certain people on this thread are dividing the issue into church gay marriage vs. civil gay marraige. Not everyone believes a distinction is important--that is, that Orthodox can or should support civill gay marraige.

It seems only certain people on this thread somehow link civil contract between two people and a Church mystery.

and his calling those that oppose gay marriage as "un-American," or something to that effect.
Once again, this is a statement about civil rights, nothing that could raise qustions about his Orthodoxy.
If no one can produce a specific statement asking for church weddings, I consider the case closed.

Can one support civil rights that is against Church teaching and still be Orthodox?

I do.

Should Orthodox people support something that will lead other people away from Orthodoxy?

Like religious freedom? Serving meat in restaurants at Wednesdays and Fridays? Allowing for your religious organisation to operate?

Quote
Can Orthodox support genocide as long as it is the state doing the genocide and not the Church?  And perhaps as long as those being killed are not Orthodox?  Can the Orthodox support incest and pedophilia?

No one from a third party is being harmed by a gay marriage.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2012, 07:19:51 AM by Michał Kalina » Logged

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« Reply #42 on: October 13, 2012, 07:30:40 AM »

Like religious freedom? Serving meat in restaurants at Wednesdays and Fridays? Allowing for your religious organisation to operate?

Exactly. There is nothing inconsistent about considering something sinful and still supporting another person's freedom to engage in it.


That being said, I remember reading an interview with Tom Hanks where he said his family attended church very infrequently, so I'd be surprised if he placed any great weight on what the Church teaches on the issue.
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« Reply #43 on: October 13, 2012, 12:33:49 PM »

It seems only certain people on this thread are dividing the issue into church gay marriage vs. civil gay marraige. Not everyone believes a distinction is important--that is, that Orthodox can or should support civill gay marraige.

It seems only certain people on this thread somehow link civil contract between two people and a Church mystery.

and his calling those that oppose gay marriage as "un-American," or something to that effect.
Once again, this is a statement about civil rights, nothing that could raise qustions about his Orthodoxy.
If no one can produce a specific statement asking for church weddings, I consider the case closed.

Can one support civil rights that is against Church teaching and still be Orthodox?

I do.

Should Orthodox people support something that will lead other people away from Orthodoxy?

Like religious freedom? Serving meat in restaurants at Wednesdays and Fridays? Allowing for your religious organisation to operate?

Quote
Can Orthodox support genocide as long as it is the state doing the genocide and not the Church?  And perhaps as long as those being killed are not Orthodox?  Can the Orthodox support incest and pedophilia?

No one from a third party is being harmed by a gay marriage.

St. Paul said we shouldn't fuss about the food we eat.  Yet there is nothing in Scripture that says homosexuality is okay or tolerable.  How many cities did God destroy because the people didn't fast when they should?
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« Reply #44 on: October 13, 2012, 12:35:26 PM »

Like religious freedom? Serving meat in restaurants at Wednesdays and Fridays? Allowing for your religious organisation to operate?

Exactly. There is nothing inconsistent about considering something sinful and still supporting another person's freedom to engage in it.


That being said, I remember reading an interview with Tom Hanks where he said his family attended church very infrequently, so I'd be surprised if he placed any great weight on what the Church teaches on the issue.

No, we are not to support it.  I'm lazy to google stuff right now but I'm pretty sure the Epistles have constantly told us to separate ourselves from the sinfulness of this world. Supporting something that is intrinsically sinful is going against that.
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« Reply #45 on: October 13, 2012, 12:54:54 PM »

How many cities did God destroy because the people didn't fast when they should?

There was one He did not seatroy because the citizens started to fast.
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« Reply #46 on: October 13, 2012, 12:59:00 PM »

How many cities did God destroy because the people didn't fast when they should?

There was one He did not seatroy because the citizens started to fast.

People can be excused from fasting.  People are never excused to do homosexual acts.  Homosexuality is an abomination.
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« Reply #47 on: October 13, 2012, 01:09:34 PM »

I have a best friend who is gay. If he gets married, I won't attend his wedding, but I don't feel right telling him he can't get married, even though in our state it wouldn't be recognized legally. I support him and hope he is happy, while at the same time I recognize that any sexual activity outside of marriage is wrong, and the only true marriage is between one man and one woman.

I hope he has better friends.
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« Reply #48 on: October 13, 2012, 01:10:53 PM »

Homosexuality is an abomination.

What isn't anymore?

Go make endless threads about all that as well.
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« Reply #49 on: October 13, 2012, 01:24:23 PM »

Homosexuality is an abomination.

What isn't anymore?

Go make endless threads about all that as well.

So I guess it is okay to go with a friend to bars to pick up women and have a stash of date rape drugs as long as I don't do it myself nor my friend is a Christian.  But it is okay to support him for it.
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« Reply #50 on: October 13, 2012, 01:24:55 PM »

Homosexuality is an abomination.

So is fornication, adultery and divorce. All of those 3 are far more conducive to the breakdown of the family, and a far greater threat to traditional marriage. Should we make those illegal? Or is it possible to support people's freedom to do those things without encouraging them.

Read the Fathers, there are few things condemned with the same frequency as fornication. Yet no one ever talks about it. People consider it entirely normal, shrug their shoulders, and think nothing of it. When people start screaming about the evils of fornication, I'll take seriously the hysteria about homosexuality.
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« Reply #51 on: October 13, 2012, 01:27:10 PM »

So I guess it is okay to go with a friend to bars to pick up women and have a stash of date rape drugs as long as I don't do it myself nor my friend is a Christian.  But it is okay to support him for it.

Are you really unable to see the difference between sins that harm other people and those that don't? You can't see the difference between two illicit partners having consentual sex and rape??
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« Reply #52 on: October 13, 2012, 01:28:29 PM »

So I guess it is okay to go with a friend to bars to pick up women and have a stash of date rape drugs as long as I don't do it myself nor my friend is a Christian.  But it is okay to support him for it.

Are you really unable to see the difference between sins that harm other people and those that don't? You can't see the difference between two illicit partners having consentual sex and rape??

Homosexuality doesn't harm other people?

So I guess it is okay then that I support a married non-Christian friend having an affair and help him keep the secret.  It won't hurt his wife if she doesn't know, so it is my moral obligation to keep the secret because it is not wrong if no one gets hurt.
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« Reply #53 on: October 13, 2012, 01:30:21 PM »

Homosexuality doesn't harm other people?

No more than heterosexual fornication, which no one ever speaks about.
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« Reply #54 on: October 13, 2012, 01:30:59 PM »

Homosexuality is an abomination.

So is fornication, adultery and divorce. All of those 3 are far more conducive to the breakdown of the family, and a far greater threat to traditional marriage. Should we make those illegal? Or is it possible to support people's freedom to do those things without encouraging them.

Read the Fathers, there are few things condemned with the same frequency as fornication. Yet no one ever talks about it. People consider it entirely normal, shrug their shoulders, and think nothing of it. When people start screaming about the evils of fornication, I'll take seriously the hysteria about homosexuality.

Those things were illegal.  And I'm Filipino, divorce is illegal in the Philippines and we are fighting to keep it that way.

So yes, if there is an opportunity to make them illegal, we should support that and fight for it.
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« Reply #55 on: October 13, 2012, 01:31:30 PM »

Homosexuality doesn't harm other people?

No more than heterosexual fornication, which no one ever speaks about.

You need to hang out at CAF more often.
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« Reply #56 on: October 13, 2012, 01:32:14 PM »

So I guess it is okay to go with a friend to bars to pick up women and have a stash of date rape drugs as long as I don't do it myself nor my friend is a Christian.  But it is okay to support him for it.

Are you really unable to see the difference between sins that harm other people and those that don't? You can't see the difference between two illicit partners having consentual sex and rape??

Homosexuality doesn't harm other people?

So I guess it is okay then that I support a married non-Christian friend having an affair and help him keep the secret.  It won't hurt his wife if she doesn't know, so it is my moral obligation to keep the secret because it is not wrong if no one gets hurt.

No you should definitely place the news in the parish bulletin.
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« Reply #57 on: October 13, 2012, 01:33:53 PM »

So I guess it is okay then that I support a married non-Christian friend having an affair and help him keep the secret.  It won't hurt his wife if she doesn't know, so it is my moral obligation to keep the secret because it is not wrong if no one gets hurt.

Again, you're using really poor analogies.

There's a difference between supporting someone's freedom to do something and supporting the act.

I support the freedom of Jews practice their religion, build synagogues, etc. If it was illegal, I would be in favour of making it legal. However, I don't support anyone denying the divinity of Christ, nor do I think anyone should convert to Judaism.
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« Reply #58 on: October 13, 2012, 01:34:04 PM »

Even if the secular government wants to sanction sinful behavior, our duty as Christians is to lead people to the Kingdom of God.  How does supporting secular action that promotes anti-Christian behavior help that duty?  How does supporting secular gay marriage help lead these gay couples into the Kingdom?  By supporting gay marriage we are actually leading them away from the Kingdom, and ourselves as well.
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« Reply #59 on: October 13, 2012, 01:36:13 PM »

So I guess it is okay then that I support a married non-Christian friend having an affair and help him keep the secret.  It won't hurt his wife if she doesn't know, so it is my moral obligation to keep the secret because it is not wrong if no one gets hurt.

Again, you're using really poor analogies.

There's a difference between supporting someone's freedom to do something and supporting the act.

I support the freedom of Jews practice their religion, build synagogues, etc. If it was illegal, I would be in favour of making it legal. However, I don't support anyone denying the divinity of Christ, nor do I think anyone should convert to Judaism.

No, you're using poor reasoning. Supporting one's freedom to sin is anti-Christian. We should never, ever support anything against being a good Christian. We are supposed to help lead these people to the Kingdom, not away from it.  If you put a delineation between Church and secular and think you can support anything secular is wrong.  As I said, Scripture is very clear, we live in this world but are not of this world.  To support secular agendas which are clearly sinful violates that and we commit sin ourselves.
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« Reply #60 on: October 13, 2012, 01:37:24 PM »

Even if the secular government wants to sanction sinful behavior, our duty as Christians is to lead people to the Kingdom of God.  How does supporting secular action that promotes anti-Christian behavior help that duty?  How does supporting secular gay marriage help lead these gay couples into the Kingdom?  By supporting gay marriage we are actually leading them away from the Kingdom, and ourselves as well.

You are going to be in for a rude awakening:



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« Reply #61 on: October 13, 2012, 01:41:42 PM »

Supporting one's freedom to sin is anti-Christian.

Do you think if you supported state prohibition of every kind of sinful behaviour it would lead to the kind of society in which people would be led to the Kingdom of God?

Secondly, freedom is not anti-Christian. Freedom is an essential feature of our relationship with God. We must chose righteousness, it is not forced upon us. Without freedom, there can be no such choice. Love cannot exist where there is only compulsion. So, freedom to sin is something God gave us from the start.

Encouraging sin is anti-Christian, supporting freedom is not.
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« Reply #62 on: October 13, 2012, 01:47:24 PM »

Supporting one's freedom to sin is anti-Christian.

Christ is anti-Christian...
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« Reply #63 on: October 13, 2012, 08:41:28 PM »

It is really a shame that so many put politics before religion. Having political ideas and trying to find loopholes to fit them into the faith doesn't work. Our faith should influence our politics, not the other way around.

I know you would like to turn this into a debate about whether Orthodox should care about civil issues and how gay marriage relates to that, but if people were to actually read and see what I said in my posts, they would realize that is not what I was talking about at all.

Quote
I am surprised that the Russian Orthodox Church would use a man in their ads who espouses views that the Church has unabashedly condemned.
The Russian Orthodox Church has condemned civil gay marriage within the state. Not just condemning gay marriage as it relates to the Orthodox Church, but within the state, as a civil issue. Therefore, I said it was odd that the Russian Orthodox Church used a man who supported civil gay marriage and condemned churches that do not agree with gay marriage (his own Orthodox Church would fall under that umbrella) in their ads as a model of Orthodoxy.
 
This I represented in my post which says:
Quote
The Russian Orthodox Church used Tom Hanks in one of their Orthodoxy ads.

The Russian Orthodox Church has combatted gay marriage being performed at all within the Russian Federation.

Tom Hanks supports legalizing gay marriage, and has sweepingly condemned churches that disagree with gay marriage.

That is what I meant. That is what I said. Nothing more.
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« Reply #64 on: October 13, 2012, 09:03:23 PM »

Supporting one's freedom to sin is anti-Christian.

Do you think if you supported state prohibition of every kind of sinful behaviour it would lead to the kind of society in which people would be led to the Kingdom of God?

Secondly, freedom is not anti-Christian. Freedom is an essential feature of our relationship with God. We must chose righteousness, it is not forced upon us. Without freedom, there can be no such choice. Love cannot exist where there is only compulsion. So, freedom to sin is something God gave us from the start.

Encouraging sin is anti-Christian, supporting freedom is not.

I don't have a problem with the state doing it.  Like I said, at some point there is only so much we can do.  But for an Orthodox Christian to actually support or be in favor of it?  That is my problem.
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« Reply #65 on: October 13, 2012, 09:08:00 PM »

Even if the secular government wants to sanction sinful behavior, our duty as Christians is to lead people to the Kingdom of God.  How does supporting secular action that promotes anti-Christian behavior help that duty?  How does supporting secular gay marriage help lead these gay couples into the Kingdom?  By supporting gay marriage we are actually leading them away from the Kingdom, and ourselves as well.

You are going to be in for a rude awakening:




Rude awakening about what?  All I said is that Christians of any kind shouldn't be voicing their support for any government initiative towards things we consider sinful.  There is a huge difference between, "there is nothing I can do to stop the government from legalizing gay marriage," to, "I support gay marriage".  I live in Canada, gay marriage is a forgone conclusion here.  I actually know some who are married as a gay couple.  I did not protest outside their homes or openly opposed them.  But neither did I say, "congratulations!"  Or anything that would support such actions.  I do have gay friends and I do wish for them to become good Christians. I don't rub my faith in their face, but neither do I applaud them about their obviously sinful behavior.
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« Reply #66 on: October 13, 2012, 09:24:00 PM »

You know I remember a lot of racist types trotting their black "friends" out back in the day.

Weird that the homohystericals always seem to have that gay "friend" as well.

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« Reply #67 on: October 13, 2012, 09:25:20 PM »

Even if the secular government wants to sanction sinful behavior, our duty as Christians is to lead people to the Kingdom of God.  How does supporting secular action that promotes anti-Christian behavior help that duty?  How does supporting secular gay marriage help lead these gay couples into the Kingdom?  By supporting gay marriage we are actually leading them away from the Kingdom, and ourselves as well.

You are going to be in for a rude awakening:




Rude awakening about what?  All I said is that Christians of any kind shouldn't be voicing their support for any government initiative towards things we consider sinful.  There is a huge difference between, "there is nothing I can do to stop the government from legalizing gay marriage," to, "I support gay marriage".  I live in Canada, gay marriage is a forgone conclusion here.  I actually know some who are married as a gay couple.  I did not protest outside their homes or openly opposed them.  But neither did I say, "congratulations!"  Or anything that would support such actions.  I do have gay friends and I do wish for them to become good Christians. I don't rub my faith in their face, but neither do I applaud them about their obviously sinful behavior.

Obviously, you're not a golfer.
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« Reply #68 on: October 13, 2012, 09:29:50 PM »

So let's understand this correctly.

Engaging in homosexual activity is sinful, right?

But why does Isa think anal sex isn't prohibitive nor sinful?
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« Reply #69 on: October 13, 2012, 09:33:05 PM »

So let's understand this correctly.

Engaging in homosexual activity is sinful, right?

But why does Isa think anal sex isn't prohibitive nor sinful?

How'd we get from Tom Hanks to homosexuality?

I mean I could see if we were talking Tom Cruise or Keanu Reeves . . .

The oc.net experiment. Try starting a thread on something that won't end up bashing: gays, women, RCs, Muslims, or Lebron. Did I leave a group out?

EDIT: Obama.
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« Reply #70 on: October 13, 2012, 09:35:02 PM »

OC.net's own Godwins Law yo.
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« Reply #71 on: October 13, 2012, 09:35:30 PM »

So let's understand this correctly.

Engaging in homosexual activity is sinful, right?

But why does Isa think anal sex isn't prohibitive nor sinful?

In the future they will use a euphemism to describe anal sex: "that most delightful of acts"  police
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« Reply #72 on: October 13, 2012, 09:38:51 PM »

*posts his own quippy response*
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« Reply #73 on: October 13, 2012, 09:39:31 PM »

So let's understand this correctly.

Engaging in homosexual activity is sinful, right?

But why does Isa think anal sex isn't prohibitive nor sinful?

In the future they will use a euphemism to describe anal sex: "that most delightful of acts"  police
You get me into so much trouble.
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« Reply #74 on: October 14, 2012, 01:02:30 AM »

So I guess it is okay then that I support a married non-Christian friend having an affair and help him keep the secret.  It won't hurt his wife if she doesn't know, so it is my moral obligation to keep the secret because it is not wrong if no one gets hurt.

Again, you're using really poor analogies.

There's a difference between supporting someone's freedom to do something and supporting the act.

I support the freedom of Jews practice their religion, build synagogues, etc. If it was illegal, I would be in favour of making it legal. However, I don't support anyone denying the divinity of Christ, nor do I think anyone should convert to Judaism.

Your whole outlook is an innovation.
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« Reply #75 on: October 14, 2012, 01:03:05 AM »

Even if the secular government wants to sanction sinful behavior, our duty as Christians is to lead people to the Kingdom of God.  How does supporting secular action that promotes anti-Christian behavior help that duty?  How does supporting secular gay marriage help lead these gay couples into the Kingdom?  By supporting gay marriage we are actually leading them away from the Kingdom, and ourselves as well.

Exactly.
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« Reply #76 on: October 14, 2012, 01:04:43 AM »

So I guess it is okay then that I support a married non-Christian friend having an affair and help him keep the secret.  It won't hurt his wife if she doesn't know, so it is my moral obligation to keep the secret because it is not wrong if no one gets hurt.

Again, you're using really poor analogies.

There's a difference between supporting someone's freedom to do something and supporting the act.

I support the freedom of Jews practice their religion, build synagogues, etc. If it was illegal, I would be in favour of making it legal. However, I don't support anyone denying the divinity of Christ, nor do I think anyone should convert to Judaism.

No, you're using poor reasoning. Supporting one's freedom to sin is anti-Christian. We should never, ever support anything against being a good Christian. We are supposed to help lead these people to the Kingdom, not away from it.  If you put a delineation between Church and secular and think you can support anything secular is wrong.  As I said, Scripture is very clear, we live in this world but are not of this world.  To support secular agendas which are clearly sinful violates that and we commit sin ourselves.

Amen.

Why should our conscience be divided? If the Lord is God, worship him. If Baal is, then worship him. Why suppose you can do both?
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« Reply #77 on: October 14, 2012, 01:06:35 AM »

So let's understand this correctly.

Engaging in homosexual activity is sinful, right?

But why does Isa think anal sex isn't prohibitive nor sinful?

Because he is wrong.
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« Reply #78 on: October 14, 2012, 01:08:41 AM »

It seems only certain people on this thread are dividing the issue into church gay marriage vs. civil gay marraige. Not everyone believes a distinction is important--that is, that Orthodox can or should support civill gay marraige.

Should Orthodox people support something that will lead other people away from Orthodoxy?

Can Orthodox support genocide as long as it is the state doing the genocide and not the Church?  And perhaps as long as those being killed are not Orthodox?  Can the Orthodox support incest and pedophilia?

Absolutely not.

"My prayer shall ever be against the things with which they are well pleased, their judges falling upon the rock have been swallowed up."
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« Reply #79 on: October 14, 2012, 01:10:37 AM »

Our stance on civil (not church) marriage remains fundamentally a civil, or even a political issue. Some here seem to argue that civil regulations be conformed to canons within the Church. While that view is worth discussing (and before I enter into that, I will wait whether the moderators say it should be done in the Politics section), this view has never been dogmatised or even agreed upon by the Church.

On the contrary, I might just point to the fact that many Greek-American politicians are members in good standing and even received official honours, in spite of endorsing legal abortion. (I hope we all agree that abortion is worse than gay marriage, because one is murder and the other isn't). So I would conclude from that, that it is not necessary that you want civil law to be in conformity with Church canons, in order to be a church member in good standing. And I believe this applies even to the Moscow Patriarchate: Whereas the MP has expressed a preference for a legal abortion ban in Russia, they have never exclued President Putin from communion or whatever, because he hasnt enacted one.

Many murderous tyrants were honored by Orthodox clergy for one reason or another, it does not excuse them. The Church has not swallowed the secularist line that it must have no say in what the state does.
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« Reply #80 on: October 14, 2012, 01:11:43 AM »

It seems only certain people on this thread are dividing the issue into church gay marriage vs. civil gay marraige. Not everyone believes a distinction is important--that is, that Orthodox can or should support civill gay marraige.

It seems only certain people on this thread somehow link civil contract between two people and a Church mystery.

and his calling those that oppose gay marriage as "un-American," or something to that effect.
Once again, this is a statement about civil rights, nothing that could raise qustions about his Orthodoxy.
If no one can produce a specific statement asking for church weddings, I consider the case closed.

Can one support civil rights that is against Church teaching and still be Orthodox?

I do.

Should Orthodox people support something that will lead other people away from Orthodoxy?

Like religious freedom? Serving meat in restaurants at Wednesdays and Fridays? Allowing for your religious organisation to operate?

Quote
Can Orthodox support genocide as long as it is the state doing the genocide and not the Church?  And perhaps as long as those being killed are not Orthodox?  Can the Orthodox support incest and pedophilia?

No one from a third party is being harmed by a gay marriage.

And which came first, the civil contract or the union of two into one flesh, the divine mystery? Tell me, which is the original plan and which is the human innovation?
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« Reply #81 on: October 14, 2012, 02:37:45 AM »

And which came first, the civil contract or the union of two into one flesh, the divine mystery? Tell me, which is the original plan and which is the human innovation?
Remarriage is a human innovation.

One tolerated because of God's humility in giving the keys and his abundant mercy.

But it is a human innovation nonetheless.
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« Reply #82 on: October 14, 2012, 02:40:32 AM »

And which came first, the civil contract or the union of two into one flesh, the divine mystery? Tell me, which is the original plan and which is the human innovation?
Remarriage is a human innovation.
Yes?
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« Reply #83 on: October 14, 2012, 08:34:54 AM »

And which came first, the civil contract or the union of two into one flesh, the divine mystery? Tell me, which is the original plan and which is the human innovation?

Tell me, how are these two separate things related.
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« Reply #84 on: October 14, 2012, 04:05:37 PM »

Your whole outlook is an innovation.

Western secular democracy is an innovation, but is the political context we're discussing. You can't apply the standards of Byzantine theocracy (the ideal, not the historical reality) to America or Western Europe. Trust not in princes, etc. Homosexual relationships are sinful, not because they harm others (unlike things like genocide, murder, paedophilia, and date-rape), but because they are contrary to the divine purpose behind human sexuality. In other words, our objection to it is theological. A secular government, by definition, can never uphold any principle on the basis of theology. It necessitates the divorcing of a moral position from its meaning and purpose, and makes it little more than empty moralism. That, I believe, can be more of a hindrance than a help. While I personally do not favour the legalising of gay marriage (I'm somewhat indifferent to how it's viewed by the secular government), I object to the idea that those who do are necessarily anti-Christian or anti-Orthodox. It is the idea of freedom, limited only when one person's freedom infringes on another's, that means I could abandon the heresy of Protestantism and freely worship as an Orthodox Christian, a numerically insignificant minority, without persecution. I find calling those who chose to render unto Ceasar and support that all be equal under the law anti-Christian quite presumptuous.
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« Reply #85 on: October 14, 2012, 05:43:57 PM »

So yes, if there is an opportunity to make them illegal, we should support that and fight for it.

Have you ever loaned someone money on interest? Have you ever borrowed money at interest? Used a credit card?
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« Reply #86 on: October 14, 2012, 07:36:09 PM »

And which came first, the civil contract or the union of two into one flesh, the divine mystery? Tell me, which is the original plan and which is the human innovation?

Tell me, how are these two separate things related.

I think one possible response would be to say that marriage is part of natural law. Any marriage (civil or otherwise) in human law that conflicts with, and is contrary to, marriage as per natural law is wrong. The latter precedes the former.
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« Reply #87 on: October 14, 2012, 09:06:43 PM »

And which came first, the civil contract or the union of two into one flesh, the divine mystery? Tell me, which is the original plan and which is the human innovation?

Tell me, how are these two separate things related.

I think one possible response would be to say that marriage is part of natural law. Any marriage (civil or otherwise) in human law that conflicts with, and is contrary to, marriage as per natural law is wrong. The latter precedes the former.

Natural law...*Dejected sigh*
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« Reply #88 on: October 15, 2012, 03:29:30 PM »

Have you ever loaned someone money on interest?

Never.  I only loan money to people really dear to me.  So I don't charge them interest.

Have you ever borrowed money at interest?

Through a financial institution or not?  I only borrow money again from people dear to me.  And I have never been charged interest.  Of course banks are not my friend nor family (I wish they are) so if its through a bank then yes, obviously, there is interest.

Used a credit card?

I always pay may CC in full every month Wink
I never charge more than what I can pay for.
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« Reply #89 on: October 15, 2012, 03:31:18 PM »

Look, we can allow divorce and remarriage by ekonomia.  Can we do the same for same sex marriage?  If a gay couple become Orthodox, does the Church by ekonomia accept them as Orthodox Christians and married?

The answer is so obvious here.
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« Reply #90 on: October 15, 2012, 06:59:59 PM »

Look, we can allow divorce and remarriage by ekonomia.  Can we do the same for same sex marriage?  If a gay couple become Orthodox, does the Church by ekonomia accept them as Orthodox Christians and married?

The answer is so obvious here.

Apparently, some same-sex couples, or at least one partner, become Orthodox. I'm not sure if their condition is known before hand. In some cases it is, and I think this is problematic for many reasons.
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« Reply #91 on: October 15, 2012, 07:22:01 PM »

Look, we can allow divorce and remarriage by ekonomia.  Can we do the same for same sex marriage?  If a gay couple become Orthodox, does the Church by ekonomia accept them as Orthodox Christians and married?

The answer is so obvious here.

Apparently, some same-sex couples, or at least one partner, become Orthodox. I'm not sure if their condition is known before hand. In some cases it is, and I think this is problematic for many reasons.

If the instructions from the Russian Orthodox are any indication, obviously that is a no-no.  I googled and found some instructions on how to receive gay and transgendered individuals.  For transgendered, even if they have surgery to change their sex organs, they will still be received as their birth gender and treated as their birth gender without requiring them to go through surgery to revert.  I highly doubt a same-sex couple will be allowed to continue as if they are married.  I guess the question is, will they be required to file for civil divorce?

Anyway, that is beyond this thread.  Our issue is about people endorsing SSM such as Tom Hanks, and whether it is acceptable in the Orthodox Church or not.
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« Reply #92 on: November 10, 2012, 02:24:03 PM »

Hi all. I don't want to rehash the whole thread but I would like to add a thought.

Catholicism is often criticized for its harsh stances regarding sexuality; but it's worth noting that those harsh stances are "across the board" if you will: we oppose fornication, divorce/remarriage, contraception, sodomy (whether same- or opposite- sex) etc. It would bother me if, e.g. we took a firm stance against homosexuality but a lenient stance on fornication.
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« Reply #93 on: November 10, 2012, 02:51:36 PM »

I guess the question is, will they be required to file for civil divorce?

Would a money lender be required to release all contracts of interest in order to join the church?
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« Reply #94 on: November 10, 2012, 07:23:45 PM »

Like religious freedom? Serving meat in restaurants at Wednesdays and Fridays? Allowing for your religious organisation to operate?

Exactly. There is nothing inconsistent about considering something sinful and still supporting another person's freedom to engage in it.


That being said, I remember reading an interview with Tom Hanks where he said his family attended church very infrequently, so I'd be surprised if he placed any great weight on what the Church teaches on the issue.

Eating meat on Wednesdays and Fridays is not a sin.  Otherwise we could not have the exceptions of publican and pharisee, bright week, pentecost, etc.  It is a practice of the virtues.  We cannot equate it to abortion or practiced homosexuality. 
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« Reply #95 on: November 10, 2012, 11:00:09 PM »

Like religious freedom? Serving meat in restaurants at Wednesdays and Fridays? Allowing for your religious organisation to operate?

Exactly. There is nothing inconsistent about considering something sinful and still supporting another person's freedom to engage in it.


That being said, I remember reading an interview with Tom Hanks where he said his family attended church very infrequently, so I'd be surprised if he placed any great weight on what the Church teaches on the issue.

Eating meat on Wednesdays and Fridays is not a sin.  Otherwise we could not have the exceptions of publican and pharisee, bright week, pentecost, etc.  It is a practice of the virtues.  We cannot equate it to abortion or practiced homosexuality. 
Could we equate usury with practiced homosexuality as Nicholas and Orthonorm love to do?

In Christ,
Andrew
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« Reply #96 on: November 10, 2012, 11:36:45 PM »

"as Nicholas and Orthonorm love to do?"

I think it is more their "love for us" rather than their "love to do".
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« Reply #97 on: November 12, 2012, 12:07:24 AM »

Like religious freedom? Serving meat in restaurants at Wednesdays and Fridays? Allowing for your religious organisation to operate?

Exactly. There is nothing inconsistent about considering something sinful and still supporting another person's freedom to engage in it.


That being said, I remember reading an interview with Tom Hanks where he said his family attended church very infrequently, so I'd be surprised if he placed any great weight on what the Church teaches on the issue.

Eating meat on Wednesdays and Fridays is not a sin.  Otherwise we could not have the exceptions of publican and pharisee, bright week, pentecost, etc.  It is a practice of the virtues.  We cannot equate it to abortion or practiced homosexuality. 
Could we equate usury with practiced homosexuality as Nicholas and Orthonorm love to do?

In Christ,
Andrew

Quote or it didn't happen.

I would never equate the two.

A lot more people get screwed over by one than the other.
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« Reply #98 on: November 12, 2012, 03:38:51 AM »

I guess the question is, will they be required to file for civil divorce?

Would a money lender be required to release all contracts of interest in order to join the church?

If one does not repent, isn't one excommunicated?
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« Reply #99 on: November 12, 2012, 07:40:13 AM »

Like religious freedom? Serving meat in restaurants at Wednesdays and Fridays? Allowing for your religious organisation to operate?

Exactly. There is nothing inconsistent about considering something sinful and still supporting another person's freedom to engage in it.


That being said, I remember reading an interview with Tom Hanks where he said his family attended church very infrequently, so I'd be surprised if he placed any great weight on what the Church teaches on the issue.

Eating meat on Wednesdays and Fridays is not a sin.  Otherwise we could not have the exceptions of publican and pharisee, bright week, pentecost, etc.  It is a practice of the virtues.  We cannot equate it to abortion or practiced homosexuality. 
Could we equate usury with practiced homosexuality as Nicholas and Orthonorm love to do?

In Christ,
Andrew

Quote or it didn't happen.

I would never equate the two.

A lot more people get screwed over by one than the other.
A lot more people get screwed by theft than by murder, but it doesn't make the latter less a crime.
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« Reply #100 on: November 12, 2012, 07:43:44 AM »

and his calling those that oppose gay marriage as "un-American," or something to that effect.
Once again, this is a statement about civil rights, nothing that could raise qustions about his Orthodoxy.
If no one can produce a specific statement asking for church weddings, I consider the case closed.
So, unless the perpetrator is Orthodox, we are OK with murder?  We have nothing to say on Armin Meiwes?
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« Reply #101 on: November 12, 2012, 07:47:33 AM »

You know I remember a lot of racist types trotting their black "friends" out back in the day.

Weird that the homohystericals always seem to have that gay "friend" as well.


Unlike the Left, they can tolerate persons of different opinions.
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« Reply #102 on: November 12, 2012, 11:07:49 AM »

"as Nicholas and Orthonorm love to do?"

I think it is more their "love for us" rather than their "love to do".
I said what I said. Wink

In Christ,
Andrew
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« Reply #103 on: November 17, 2012, 09:42:15 PM »

Hi all. I don't want to rehash the whole thread but I would like to add a thought.

Catholicism is often criticized for its harsh stances regarding sexuality; but it's worth noting that those harsh stances are "across the board" if you will: we oppose fornication, divorce/remarriage, contraception, sodomy (whether same- or opposite- sex) etc. It would bother me if, e.g. we took a firm stance against homosexuality but a lenient stance on fornication.
That is known as consistency. Wink

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« Reply #104 on: November 17, 2012, 09:46:13 PM »

Supporting one's freedom to sin is anti-Christian.

Christ is anti-Christian...
Oh really...........do tell.

and what you're talking about is not "freedom" what you really want is licence.
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« Reply #105 on: November 17, 2012, 09:49:40 PM »

You know I remember a lot of racist types trotting their black "friends" out back in the day.

Weird that the homohystericals always seem to have that gay "friend" as well.


You know, if I was black and you made a statement like that equating my people with homosexuals, we'd have a problem.

The scary part is you call your self OrthoNORM.  Shocked
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« Reply #106 on: November 17, 2012, 09:53:45 PM »

Even if the secular government wants to sanction sinful behavior, our duty as Christians is to lead people to the Kingdom of God.  How does supporting secular action that promotes anti-Christian behavior help that duty?  How does supporting secular gay marriage help lead these gay couples into the Kingdom?  By supporting gay marriage we are actually leading them away from the Kingdom, and ourselves as well.
I'm really beginning to have a new found respect for you choy after reading this thread. Wink

Unfortunately, it's quite revealing about some "Orthodox" attitudes towards this sexual deviancy known as a "life style".
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« Reply #107 on: November 17, 2012, 11:03:21 PM »

Hi all. I don't want to rehash the whole thread but I would like to add a thought.

Catholicism is often criticized for its harsh stances regarding sexuality; but it's worth noting that those harsh stances are "across the board" if you will: we oppose fornication, divorce/remarriage, contraception, sodomy (whether same- or opposite- sex) etc. It would bother me if, e.g. we took a firm stance against homosexuality but a lenient stance on fornication.
That is known as consistency. Wink



To mangle another's words: Consistency is the hobgoblin of small minds.
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