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Author Topic: Is there no forgiveness without blood?  (Read 707 times) Average Rating: 0
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Azul
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« on: September 07, 2012, 12:11:40 AM »

the question is the name of the thread
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« Reply #1 on: September 07, 2012, 12:17:45 AM »

I'm guessing you mean to be asking because of Heb. 9?

"And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission. It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us: Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others; For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation." (Heb. 9:22-28)
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Azul
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« Reply #2 on: September 07, 2012, 06:37:00 AM »

yes
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« Reply #3 on: September 07, 2012, 10:40:12 AM »

Based on Scripture (specifically that Hebrews passage cited above), I'd answer 'there is indeed no forgivness without the shedding of blood'. In Ephesians 1:7, Paul states we have 'redemption through His blood'.
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« Reply #4 on: September 07, 2012, 12:14:39 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

This is a complicated theological issue, because essentially these Scriptures are in connection with the Holy Communion.  We of course assert that Holy Communion is Salvation, and why it is part of Baptism.  So what about folks who do not have the privilege to receive Holy Communion? Or the Old Testament Saints? We read of folks being Baptized in the Cloud and of the resurrected Saints even before Holy Communion, how can we make sense of this? Perhaps we can't, and maybe we should not.  As in all things Orthodox, this is really a question outside of the usual range.  In Orthodox, we should be most concerned with our own individual sins and our own Salvation, not necessarily that of other people.  So the way to rephrase this question is, "For myself, an Orthodox Christian, is there forgiveness without Blood (i.e. reception of the Holy Communion)." To which the obvious answer is no.  Does it explain the Old Testament Saints or many Martyrs who were not necessarily baptized, Communed Christians and yet we understand them to be in Heaven and saved.  How can we reconcile this gap? Again, we can't, hence the Church being one of Mysteries.  Hence, why  the Blood which gives forgiveness is rightfully called the Divine Mystery of Holy Communion.

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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Azul
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« Reply #5 on: September 07, 2012, 01:20:59 PM »

Based on Scripture (specifically that Hebrews passage cited above), I'd answer 'there is indeed no forgivness without the shedding of blood'. In Ephesians 1:7, Paul states we have 'redemption through His blood'.

what does that mean?
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« Reply #6 on: September 16, 2012, 11:36:45 AM »

All ways of speaking of our salvation are analogies at best. There is a reality that exists about our salvation and our relationship to God, but human language can never fully articulate it. So we compare our salvation to other human experiences, and some approximate that reality better than others.

"Forgiveness" relates to a debt. If I owe you money, you can either collect what you owe, or you can drop your claim to it. If you drop your claim to my debt, then my debt is forgiven. Salvation is kind of like that, with our "debt" being our sin.

"Ransom" relates to a kidnapping. If my enemy has kidnapped my child, then I will pay that enemy whatever he demands in order to get my child back. Salvation is kind of like that, with the "enemy" being Death or Satan, and the "ransom" being Christ's blood.

"Redemption" relates to finding something lost. If I lose something, I'm going to look for it until I find it. If I find out where it is, I will go to where it is and claim - or "redeem" - it. Salvation is kind of like that.

So we have to first remember that language such as "forgiveness" is not so much a concrete reality as much as it is a human way to trying to express an inexpressible reality. But forgiveness does not necessitate a payment. In fact, if a payment were made - even if it were not the indebted party - then there is actually no forgiveness at all. If God requires payment, even if that payment is made by Christ, then our sin is not forgiven; it's just paid by someone else.

Christ's blood didn't have any kind of special properties, and it wasn't the act of the blood exiting His body that was significant. It was His entire act of voluntarily laying down His life to the point of death. Christ did in fact shed His blood as part of the way He was murdered, and the Old Testament sacrifices that required the shedding of blood were only doing so as a way of prefiguring the fact that Christ would shed His blood. Christ wasn't completing the Old Testament sacrifices; the Old Testament sacrifices were acting as a "road sign" for the real thing.
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Azul
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« Reply #7 on: October 06, 2012, 05:37:49 PM »

Doesn`t that imply that there is no forgiveness without retribution and without punishment?how does that reconcile with the orthodox view of Christ`s atonement that says that God did not punish Jesus on the cross?How does that apply to christian soteriology?
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« Reply #8 on: October 06, 2012, 05:37:49 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

This is a complicated theological issue, because essentially these Scriptures are in connection with the Holy Communion.  We of course assert that Holy Communion is Salvation, and why it is part of Baptism.  So what about folks who do not have the privilege to receive Holy Communion? Or the Old Testament Saints? We read of folks being Baptized in the Cloud and of the resurrected Saints even before Holy Communion, how can we make sense of this? Perhaps we can't, and maybe we should not.  As in all things Orthodox, this is really a question outside of the usual range.  In Orthodox, we should be most concerned with our own individual sins and our own Salvation, not necessarily that of other people.  So the way to rephrase this question is, "For myself, an Orthodox Christian, is there forgiveness without Blood (i.e. reception of the Holy Communion)." To which the obvious answer is no.  Does it explain the Old Testament Saints or many Martyrs who were not necessarily baptized, Communed Christians and yet we understand them to be in Heaven and saved.  How can we reconcile this gap? Again, we can't, hence the Church being one of Mysteries.  Hence, why  the Blood which gives forgiveness is rightfully called the Divine Mystery of Holy Communion.

stay blessed,
habte selassie

The principle is only valid in a non-eucharistic community, and no longer valid to a eucharistical community(communion)?Meaning there is retaliation to those outside the eucharistic community (the EO) but those from within the Church who commune have their sin covered by his blood?How is that different from the protestant view of atonement and how is it better?the protestant says that our sins are covered by Jesus' blood once we believe and we are no longer under judgement but saved.
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Every formula of every religion has in this age of reason, to submit to the acid test of reason and universal assent.
Mahatma Gandhi
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