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Author Topic: Did Orthodox Christianity "borrow" aspects from paganism?  (Read 5558 times) Average Rating: 0
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MichaelArchangelos
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« on: October 08, 2012, 01:56:22 AM »

I was looking through a book about Greece at the local library, and it mentioned that the Greek Orthodox Church had incorporated certain aspects from paganism, like the use of incense. It also claimed that a church dedicated to St Elias (whom the book identified as Elisha, not Elijah) was actually a reference to the pagan Helios.

So is there any truth that the Greek Orthodox Church, at least, has incorporated aspects from paganism or is that just a load of rubbish?
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« Reply #1 on: October 08, 2012, 02:01:25 AM »

People have been stealing from Judaism and Christianity for a long time.  It's not surprising someone would say it was the other way around.  And apparently, no one has thought the same action may have different meaning in different religions.  It's tiresome to keep hearing Christianity is stolen from paganism.
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« Reply #2 on: October 08, 2012, 02:14:27 AM »

Kinda. I mean, we have the ultra-Greek pride zealots who believe weird things like Homer being a representation of Jesus of Socrates seeing the uncreated light. All that Greek stuff is outdated anyway. Kant came along and shattered all that mumbo jumbo.
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« Reply #3 on: October 08, 2012, 02:20:24 AM »

I was looking through a book about Greece at the local library, and it mentioned that the Greek Orthodox Church had incorporated certain aspects from paganism, like the use of incense...

My name will be great among the nations, from the rising to the setting of the sun. In every place incense and pure offerings will be brought to my name, because my name will be great among the nations," says the LORD Almighty.

Malachi 1:11
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« Reply #4 on: October 08, 2012, 02:42:35 AM »

It also claimed that a church dedicated to St Elias (whom the book identified as Elisha, not Elijah) was actually a reference to the pagan Helios.

Sometimes churches were built on the sites of former pagan temples, or pagan temples were transformed into churches. Related saints or events were seen as proper and right to "fulfill" the logos spermatikoi [akimori can fix that for me] present there. For example, the Parthenon, dedicated to the virgin (parthenos) Athena, was re-dedicated to the Virgin Mary. It was later transformed into a mosque under the Turks.

So that sort of "exchange" occurred. But it's not like pagan doctrines, practices or gods were merely adopted wholesale.

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« Reply #5 on: October 08, 2012, 02:49:03 AM »

All this talk starts to remind me of my old Russian professor, who loved to tell us stories of the days in the CCCP, where they started off as young pioneers thanking the party for their liberties and happy lives, and upon becoming older and wiser began to sarcastically add under their breaths thanks to the party for the sun and the rain and the stars, too. Wink These "Zeitgeist"-type idiots do the same: Having rejected religion on "rational" grounds first, they later move on to seeing big conspiracies in everything, so that eventually they'd have us thanking the pagans for spawning our religion, too. Pfft. The next person who comes up to me with this "Jesus is Horus" garbage is getting a very irenic punch in the face. You know, without anger, but for the good of their own selves, so they actually start thinking about what they're saying and stop grabbing at disparate threads across centuries and unrelated cultures in an attempt to make Christianity fit into their insane postmodernist worldview that sees conspiracy and pagan iterations in everything.
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« Reply #6 on: October 08, 2012, 03:38:48 AM »

All that Greek stuff is outdated anyway. Kant came along and shattered all that mumbo jumbo.

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I bet you haven't read Plato or Aristotle or any Greek philosopher or even Kant for that matter.
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« Reply #7 on: October 08, 2012, 04:09:20 AM »

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It also claimed that a church dedicated to St Elias (whom the book identified as Elisha, not Elijah) ...

This, alone, set off alarm bells. If such a basic mistake was made, I'd expect the rest of the book to be pretty sloppy in its scholarship. As for Elias/Helios, linguistically, there is no connection:

Elias = Ἠλίας

Helios =  Ἥλιος

The former has the "smooth" aspirant preceding the first letter, and the accent is on the second syllable. The latter has the "rough" aspirant preceding the first letter, and the accent is on the first syllable.


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« Reply #8 on: October 08, 2012, 04:14:09 AM »

Kinda. I mean, we have the ultra-Greek pride zealots who believe weird things like Homer being a representation of Jesus of Socrates seeing the uncreated light. All that Greek stuff is outdated anyway. Kant came along and shattered all that mumbo jumbo.

What is outdated?
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« Reply #9 on: October 08, 2012, 04:37:27 AM »

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It also claimed that a church dedicated to St Elias (whom the book identified as Elisha, not Elijah) ...

This, alone, set off alarm bells. If such a basic mistake was made, I'd expect the rest of the book to be pretty sloppy in its scholarship. As for Elias/Helios, linguistically, there is no connection:

Elias = Ἠλίας

Helios =  Ἥλιος

The former has the "smooth" aspirant preceding the first letter, and the accent is on the second syllable. The latter has the "rough" aspirant preceding the first letter, and the accent is on the first syllable.



Off topic: how difficult is it to learn old biblical languages?
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« Reply #10 on: October 08, 2012, 05:27:38 AM »

All that Greek stuff is outdated anyway. Kant came along and shattered all that mumbo jumbo.

 Angry

I bet you haven't read Plato or Aristotle or any Greek philosopher or even Kant for that matter.


I read Nicomachean Ethics by Aristotle which I found kind of to be a waste of time because it was nothing I already did not know, it felt sort of tautological. I started the Republic by Plato but did not find it too appealing since Marx is a better political philosopher to me. And I've read articles and excerpts from Kant but not his full works.
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« Reply #11 on: October 08, 2012, 05:42:40 AM »

All that Greek stuff is outdated anyway. Kant came along and shattered all that mumbo jumbo.

 Angry

I bet you haven't read Plato or Aristotle or any Greek philosopher or even Kant for that matter.


I read Nicomachean Ethics by Aristotle which I found kind of to be a waste of time because it was nothing I already did not know, it felt sort of tautological. I started the Republic by Plato but did not find it too appealing since Marx is a better political philosopher to me. And I've read articles and excerpts from Kant but not his full works.
May I suggest that you explore some of Plato's other writings.
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« Reply #12 on: October 08, 2012, 06:10:56 AM »

Well, it depends on what you mean. The use of incense is found in both Old and New Testaments, and so our use of it in the Church is certainly not a borrowing from paganism. The way we use incense, however, comes from the court rituals of imperial Rome. Likewise the first cathedrals took the form of the basilica, which again has its origins in ancient Rome. Stylistically, our iconography has its origins in pre-Christian Hellenic art. The various styles of chant, whether Coptic, Byzantine, etc. have their origins in the music of the pagan cultures which preceded it. But so what?
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« Reply #13 on: October 08, 2012, 12:11:29 PM »

All this talk starts to remind me of my old Russian professor, who loved to tell us stories of the days in the CCCP, where they started off as young pioneers thanking the party for their liberties and happy lives, and upon becoming older and wiser began to sarcastically add under their breaths thanks to the party for the sun and the rain and the stars, too. Wink These "Zeitgeist"-type idiots do the same: Having rejected religion on "rational" grounds first, they later move on to seeing big conspiracies in everything, so that eventually they'd have us thanking the pagans for spawning our religion, too. Pfft. The next person who comes up to me with this "Jesus is Horus" garbage is getting a very irenic punch in the face. You know, without anger, but for the good of their own selves, so they actually start thinking about what they're saying and stop grabbing at disparate threads across centuries and unrelated cultures in an attempt to make Christianity fit into their insane postmodernist worldview that sees conspiracy and pagan iterations in everything.

Well said !
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« Reply #14 on: October 08, 2012, 12:27:21 PM »

Pagans believed and prayed. We also believe and pray. Does this mean that we adopted these from paganism?  Grin
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« Reply #15 on: October 08, 2012, 12:30:10 PM »


I read Nicomachean Ethics by Aristotle which I found kind of to be a waste of time because it was nothing I already did not know, it felt sort of tautological. I started the Republic by Plato but did not find it too appealing since Marx is a better political philosopher to me.

Then you really missed the point.

Also, saying Marx is a "better" political philosopher than Plato is a very un-Marxist sentiment. Marx would say Plato's philosophy was a product of his epoch and comparing ancient Greek philosophy to 19th century philosophy in terms of "better" or "worse" was ahistorical and idealist.
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« Reply #16 on: October 08, 2012, 12:32:08 PM »

All that Greek stuff is outdated anyway. Kant came along and shattered all that mumbo jumbo.

 Angry

I bet you haven't read Plato or Aristotle or any Greek philosopher or even Kant for that matter.


I read Nicomachean Ethics by Aristotle which I found kind of to be a waste of time because it was nothing I already did not know, it felt sort of tautological. I started the Republic by Plato but did not find it too appealing since Marx is a better political philosopher to me. And I've read articles and excerpts from Kant but not his full works.

And Marx would chastise you for not toughing it out and reading it in full.  If anything, Marx knew his Classics so he could better fight against any and all use of them by the capitalists.
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« Reply #17 on: October 08, 2012, 12:45:13 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!



I'm with Joseph Campbell on this one, and he was a devout and active Catholic.

I think we observe religious, cultural, and theological similarities between "pagans", Christians, Jews, and yes, even Muslims too, not because of literal borrowing from each other (though sometimes this is the case), but because these cultural manifestations stem from the same primal human subconscious archetypes like Carl Jung talks about.  Our subconscious mind shares the same collective imagery and symbolism, so we tend to apply the same intuitive understandings to the same things.  Its like what the Apostle Paul said about those who seem to follow the Law even in pagan practices.

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for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves,  who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them
Romans 2

We share the same collective mind and human experience, so naturally we come to the same kinds of worship, the same use of religious symbolism, and the same kinds of cultural practices and taboos, stemming from a common source.  We could think of this source as the Holy Spirit.  My own two-cents is that I feel God gives us this commonality so that when by the Holy Spirit He brings folks into the Church through Baptism, the Church they come into is no so instinctively foreign Smiley

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #18 on: October 08, 2012, 02:38:58 PM »

Interesting read on this subject in terms of Russian Church history.... http://www.oxfordu.net/seoul/chapter7/index.html
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« Reply #19 on: October 08, 2012, 03:11:43 PM »

All that Greek stuff is outdated anyway. Kant came along and shattered all that mumbo jumbo.

 Angry

I bet you haven't read Plato or Aristotle or any Greek philosopher or even Kant for that matter.


I read Nicomachean Ethics by Aristotle which I found kind of to be a waste of time because it was nothing I already did not know, it felt sort of tautological. I started the Republic by Plato but did not find it too appealing since Marx is a better political philosopher to me. And I've read articles and excerpts from Kant but not his full works.

Why not read Plato's Symposion and Apologia? And I hope you didn't read the Politeia as a handbook for politics because it's not. The whole state is designed to show that dikaiosune (justice isn't a perfect translation) exists and isn't relative. Just my 2c.
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« Reply #20 on: October 08, 2012, 03:40:49 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Interesting read on this subject in terms of Russian Church history.... http://www.oxfordu.net/seoul/chapter7/index.html

I agree with the article, but I'm not quite sure syncreticism and dual-belief systems is the same as what the OP is asking about.  Perhaps we can infer that sometimes dual-beliefs evolve and become "borrowed" elements of otherwise Orthodox worship and practices, but from the contemporary analysis looking backwards, I am not quite sure we can always use this model.  Not every mutuallity between different religions and Christianity are inherently a product of dual-belief.  While the Christmas trees are probably an obvious example of contemporary dual-beliefs or syncreticism, something more complicated like incense or icons I think is less easily explained by this.


By the way, that was a great article, thanks for sharing it Smiley

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #21 on: October 08, 2012, 04:11:35 PM »

Also fair to mention that Christianity--Orthodoxy at least--has always been about compromise with converts so that the changes are not too drastic for the convert, hence why certain Trinitarian Baptisms are accepted as valid by the Church. Perhaps the same has been done throughout history with Pagan converts, where we take their elements and try to Christianise them or compromise to work with them, and perhaps that could account for any Pagan similarities in Christianity.
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« Reply #22 on: October 08, 2012, 09:23:59 PM »

They over look the possibility of incense being inspired by judaism.
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« Reply #23 on: October 08, 2012, 09:26:14 PM »

Also fair to mention that Christianity--Orthodoxy at least--has always been about compromise with converts so that the changes are not too drastic for the convert, hence why certain Trinitarian Baptisms are accepted as valid by the Church. Perhaps the same has been done throughout history with Pagan converts, where we take their elements and try to Christianise them or compromise to work with them, and perhaps that could account for any Pagan similarities in Christianity.

Ukrainian pisanki symbolism is a good example of this.
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« Reply #24 on: October 08, 2012, 10:42:24 PM »

I was looking through a book about Greece at the local library, and it mentioned that the Greek Orthodox Church had incorporated certain aspects from paganism, like the use of incense. It also claimed that a church dedicated to St Elias (whom the book identified as Elisha, not Elijah) was actually a reference to the pagan Helios.

So is there any truth that the Greek Orthodox Church, at least, has incorporated aspects from paganism or is that just a load of rubbish?

From the author's equation of the use of incense with paganism and weird misaplication of the Prophet Elisha instead of Elias, we can tell that the author is obviously insane.

Incense was used in the Jewish temple. There are quite a few references to it in the Old Testament and God killed people who made it not according to the recipe he gave. Churches dedicated to the Holy Prophet Elias are often placed on mountains because 1. St. Elias is associated with mountain tops in the Old Testamnet and 2. churches on top of mountains are cool and a source of comfort to the faithful and a proclamation of the presence and love of God to all.
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« Reply #25 on: October 08, 2012, 10:43:30 PM »

Kinda. I mean, we have the ultra-Greek pride zealots who believe weird things like Homer being a representation of Jesus of Socrates seeing the uncreated light. All that Greek stuff is outdated anyway. Kant came along and shattered all that mumbo jumbo.

Please be careful, James. People who say such things wind up in Greek hell. I don't think you want to eat gyros for eternity.
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« Reply #26 on: October 08, 2012, 10:45:32 PM »

All that Greek stuff is outdated anyway. Kant came along and shattered all that mumbo jumbo.

 Angry

I bet you haven't read Plato or Aristotle or any Greek philosopher or even Kant for that matter.

Kant is what they have to read in German hell. Much gnashing of teeth there.
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« Reply #27 on: October 08, 2012, 10:48:25 PM »

Also fair to mention that Christianity--Orthodoxy at least--has always been about compromise with converts so that the changes are not too drastic for the convert, hence why certain Trinitarian Baptisms are accepted as valid by the Church. Perhaps the same has been done throughout history with Pagan converts, where we take their elements and try to Christianise them or compromise to work with them, and perhaps that could account for any Pagan similarities in Christianity.

facepalm smiley here
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« Reply #28 on: October 08, 2012, 10:50:15 PM »

All that Greek stuff is outdated anyway. Kant came along and shattered all that mumbo jumbo.

 Angry

I bet you haven't read Plato or Aristotle or any Greek philosopher or even Kant for that matter.

Kant is what they have to read in German hell. Much gnashing of teeth there.

As would be the case with Irish hell - James Joyce. GAAAAK!!
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« Reply #29 on: October 08, 2012, 10:56:50 PM »

All that Greek stuff is outdated anyway. Kant came along and shattered all that mumbo jumbo.

 Angry

I bet you haven't read Plato or Aristotle or any Greek philosopher or even Kant for that matter.

Kant is what they have to read in German hell. Much gnashing of teeth there.

As would be the case with Irish hell - James Joyce. GAAAAK!!

Agreed. And no whisky there to wash it down.
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« Reply #30 on: October 08, 2012, 11:41:28 PM »

But in Greek hell you would have that dreadful evil eye  on you all of the time!
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« Reply #31 on: October 08, 2012, 11:51:25 PM »

In Greek Hell you have to man up and pay your taxes as punishment, with no aid from the EU to bail you out of your economic problems  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #32 on: October 08, 2012, 11:53:45 PM »

But in Greek hell you would have that dreadful evil eye  on you all of the time!

It's there in Slavic hell as well!  There is no escape! Shocked  Tongue

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« Reply #33 on: October 08, 2012, 11:54:33 PM »

Who says paganism can't be sanctified?
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« Reply #34 on: October 09, 2012, 12:16:19 AM »

But in Greek hell you would have that dreadful evil eye  on you all of the time!

It's there in Slavic hell as well!  There is no escape! Shocked  Tongue



It maybe just your personal hell, LBK.

I find it unfortunate that icon lacked an image of Rasputin holding a baby Stalin
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« Reply #35 on: October 09, 2012, 12:17:15 AM »

Who says paganism can't be sanctified?

Well, it depends. Can child sacrifice be redeemed? The author in the OP was calling things pagan that were not.
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« Reply #36 on: October 09, 2012, 12:29:10 AM »

Who says paganism can't be sanctified?

Well, it depends. Can child sacrifice be redeemed? The author in the OP was calling things pagan that were not.
Fair enough. Not everything can be given a Christian meaning.

But just because something came from a non-Christian, non-Jewish origin doesn't it is beyond redemption.

A great example of incorporating paganism comes from our own Scriptures.

Then Paul stood in the midst of Mars' hill, and said, Ye men of Athens, I perceive that in all things ye are too superstitious. For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, To The Unknown God. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you. God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands; Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things; And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us: For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.

St. Paul takes the local paganism and turns it into Christianity.

Heck, to prove his point, he quotes a pagan poem about a pagan god but applies it to the true God.

Who said Orthodoxy isn't triumphalist?
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« Reply #37 on: October 09, 2012, 12:31:07 AM »

But in Greek hell you would have that dreadful evil eye  on you all of the time!

It's there in Slavic hell as well!  There is no escape! Shocked  Tongue



It maybe just your personal hell, LBK.

I find it unfortunate that icon lacked an image of Rasputin holding a baby Stalin

My schlock file has "icons" of both Stalin and Rasputin, and of Ivan IV (The Terrible). Don't tempt me to post them!  Shocked laugh
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« Reply #38 on: October 09, 2012, 12:42:33 AM »

But in Greek hell you would have that dreadful evil eye  on you all of the time!

It's there in Slavic hell as well!  There is no escape! Shocked  Tongue



It maybe just your personal hell, LBK.

I find it unfortunate that icon lacked an image of Rasputin holding a baby Stalin

My schlock file has "icons" of both Stalin and Rasputin, and of Ivan IV (The Terrible). Don't tempt me to post them!  Shocked laugh

If you have an icon of Ivan IV and Stalin embracing like Sts. Peter and Paul, you're obligated to post it.
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« Reply #39 on: October 09, 2012, 01:02:15 AM »

But in Greek hell you would have that dreadful evil eye  on you all of the time!

It's there in Slavic hell as well!  There is no escape! Shocked  Tongue



It maybe just your personal hell, LBK.

I find it unfortunate that icon lacked an image of Rasputin holding a baby Stalin

My schlock file has "icons" of both Stalin and Rasputin, and of Ivan IV (The Terrible). Don't tempt me to post them!  Shocked laugh

If you have an icon of Ivan IV and Stalin embracing like Sts. Peter and Paul, you're obligated to post it.

Haven't come across one like that, but I bet some rabid ultranationalist idiot somewhere in Russia is painting one as we speak.  Shocked  laugh
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« Reply #40 on: October 09, 2012, 08:19:25 AM »

Hi All,

Been reading some of the replies, If Paganism stole from Judaism and Christianity, where did the idea of the Son of God come from What makes Christianity's Son of God (Our Lord Jesus Christ) different from pagan sons of god's ie: Hercules son of god of zeus, Mithra born of a virgin women or rock ? Mithra was also a son of god.

How come Christianity is so closely related to some of the pagan worshiping methods of God ?, did the demons create this false application in influencing humans to create idols in the false form of a trinity god, sons of gods so they can distort the real TRUTH of God?. To Apply a false, confusing and misleading message to us human of who God really is ?.



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« Reply #41 on: October 09, 2012, 08:30:00 AM »

Hi All,

Been reading some of the replies, If Paganism stole from Judaism and Christianity, where did the idea of the Son of God come from What makes Christianity's Son of God (Our Lord Jesus Christ) different from pagan sons of god's ie: Hercules son of god of zeus, Mithra born of a virgin women or rock ? Mithra was also a son of god.

How come Christianity is so closely related to some of the pagan worshiping methods of God ?, did the demons create this false application in influencing humans to create idols in the false form of a trinity god, sons of gods so they can distort the real TRUTH of God?. To Apply a false, confusing and misleading message to us human of who God really is ?.


They're nowhere near as similar (in fact only extremely superficially do they have any similarity at all) as you seem to believe. To take your two examples, Hercules is a demi-god (so half and half) born of Zeus having a physical relationship with his mother Alcmene. This is nothing like the Incarnation. Similarly, despite the claims to the contrary that are often heard Mithra wasn't born of a virgin, or even born at all really, but was pulled fully formed from a rock. And as for any alleged similarities between Mithraism and Christianity, even if they were to exist you couldn't argue that the pre-date Christianity. Almost everything we know about the Mithraic cult in the Empire is contemporary with the early Church (about 1st -4th century) and bears little resemblance to the pre-Christian Iranian belief in Mithra from which it supposedly derives.

James
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« Reply #42 on: October 09, 2012, 11:10:27 AM »

But in Greek hell you would have that dreadful evil eye  on you all of the time!

It's there in Slavic hell as well!  There is no escape! Shocked  Tongue



It maybe just your personal hell, LBK.

I find it unfortunate that icon lacked an image of Rasputin holding a baby Stalin

My schlock file has "icons" of both Stalin and Rasputin, and of Ivan IV (The Terrible). Don't tempt me to post them!  Shocked laugh

If you have an icon of Ivan IV and Stalin embracing like Sts. Peter and Paul, you're obligated to post it.

Haven't come across one like that, but I bet some rabid ultranationalist idiot somewhere in Russia is painting one as we speak.  Shocked  laugh

Oh if only someone would have the forethought, though it go against the grain, to put such on the Internet! (I'm about to choke on sarcasm here.)
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« Reply #43 on: October 09, 2012, 11:13:47 AM »

But in Greek hell you would have that dreadful evil eye  on you all of the time!

It's there in Slavic hell as well!  There is no escape! Shocked  Tongue



It maybe just your personal hell, LBK.

I find it unfortunate that icon lacked an image of Rasputin holding a baby Stalin

My schlock file has "icons" of both Stalin and Rasputin, and of Ivan IV (The Terrible). Don't tempt me to post them!  Shocked laugh

If you have an icon of Ivan IV and Stalin embracing like Sts. Peter and Paul, you're obligated to post it.

Haven't come across one like that, but I bet some rabid ultranationalist idiot somewhere in Russia is painting one as we speak.  Shocked  laugh

Oh if only someone would have the forethought, though it go against the grain, to put such on the Internet! (I'm about to choke on sarcasm here.)

If it's any consolation, I've come across hymnography written for "saints" Ivan the Terrible, Stalin, and Rasputin.  Tongue Tongue Tongue
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« Reply #44 on: October 09, 2012, 11:18:09 AM »

But in Greek hell you would have that dreadful evil eye  on you all of the time!

It's there in Slavic hell as well!  There is no escape! Shocked  Tongue



It maybe just your personal hell, LBK.

I find it unfortunate that icon lacked an image of Rasputin holding a baby Stalin

My schlock file has "icons" of both Stalin and Rasputin, and of Ivan IV (The Terrible). Don't tempt me to post them!  Shocked laugh

If you have an icon of Ivan IV and Stalin embracing like Sts. Peter and Paul, you're obligated to post it.

Haven't come across one like that, but I bet some rabid ultranationalist idiot somewhere in Russia is painting one as we speak.  Shocked  laugh

Oh if only someone would have the forethought, though it go against the grain, to put such on the Internet! (I'm about to choke on sarcasm here.)

If it's any consolation, I've come across hymnography written for "saints" Ivan the Terrible, Stalin, and Rasputin.  Tongue Tongue Tongue

I can almost hear the vesperal stichera starting with "O most marvellous wonder..." and verily it would be.
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If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.
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