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Author Topic: Did Orthodox Christianity "borrow" aspects from paganism?  (Read 6783 times) Average Rating: 0
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MichaelArchangelos
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« on: October 08, 2012, 01:56:22 AM »

I was looking through a book about Greece at the local library, and it mentioned that the Greek Orthodox Church had incorporated certain aspects from paganism, like the use of incense. It also claimed that a church dedicated to St Elias (whom the book identified as Elisha, not Elijah) was actually a reference to the pagan Helios.

So is there any truth that the Greek Orthodox Church, at least, has incorporated aspects from paganism or is that just a load of rubbish?
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« Reply #1 on: October 08, 2012, 02:01:25 AM »

People have been stealing from Judaism and Christianity for a long time.  It's not surprising someone would say it was the other way around.  And apparently, no one has thought the same action may have different meaning in different religions.  It's tiresome to keep hearing Christianity is stolen from paganism.
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« Reply #2 on: October 08, 2012, 02:14:27 AM »

Kinda. I mean, we have the ultra-Greek pride zealots who believe weird things like Homer being a representation of Jesus of Socrates seeing the uncreated light. All that Greek stuff is outdated anyway. Kant came along and shattered all that mumbo jumbo.
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« Reply #3 on: October 08, 2012, 02:20:24 AM »

I was looking through a book about Greece at the local library, and it mentioned that the Greek Orthodox Church had incorporated certain aspects from paganism, like the use of incense...

My name will be great among the nations, from the rising to the setting of the sun. In every place incense and pure offerings will be brought to my name, because my name will be great among the nations," says the LORD Almighty.

Malachi 1:11
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« Reply #4 on: October 08, 2012, 02:42:35 AM »

It also claimed that a church dedicated to St Elias (whom the book identified as Elisha, not Elijah) was actually a reference to the pagan Helios.

Sometimes churches were built on the sites of former pagan temples, or pagan temples were transformed into churches. Related saints or events were seen as proper and right to "fulfill" the logos spermatikoi [akimori can fix that for me] present there. For example, the Parthenon, dedicated to the virgin (parthenos) Athena, was re-dedicated to the Virgin Mary. It was later transformed into a mosque under the Turks.

So that sort of "exchange" occurred. But it's not like pagan doctrines, practices or gods were merely adopted wholesale.

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« Reply #5 on: October 08, 2012, 02:49:03 AM »

All this talk starts to remind me of my old Russian professor, who loved to tell us stories of the days in the CCCP, where they started off as young pioneers thanking the party for their liberties and happy lives, and upon becoming older and wiser began to sarcastically add under their breaths thanks to the party for the sun and the rain and the stars, too. Wink These "Zeitgeist"-type idiots do the same: Having rejected religion on "rational" grounds first, they later move on to seeing big conspiracies in everything, so that eventually they'd have us thanking the pagans for spawning our religion, too. Pfft. The next person who comes up to me with this "Jesus is Horus" garbage is getting a very irenic punch in the face. You know, without anger, but for the good of their own selves, so they actually start thinking about what they're saying and stop grabbing at disparate threads across centuries and unrelated cultures in an attempt to make Christianity fit into their insane postmodernist worldview that sees conspiracy and pagan iterations in everything.
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« Reply #6 on: October 08, 2012, 03:38:48 AM »

All that Greek stuff is outdated anyway. Kant came along and shattered all that mumbo jumbo.

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I bet you haven't read Plato or Aristotle or any Greek philosopher or even Kant for that matter.
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« Reply #7 on: October 08, 2012, 04:09:20 AM »

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It also claimed that a church dedicated to St Elias (whom the book identified as Elisha, not Elijah) ...

This, alone, set off alarm bells. If such a basic mistake was made, I'd expect the rest of the book to be pretty sloppy in its scholarship. As for Elias/Helios, linguistically, there is no connection:

Elias = Ἠλίας

Helios =  Ἥλιος

The former has the "smooth" aspirant preceding the first letter, and the accent is on the second syllable. The latter has the "rough" aspirant preceding the first letter, and the accent is on the first syllable.


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« Reply #8 on: October 08, 2012, 04:14:09 AM »

Kinda. I mean, we have the ultra-Greek pride zealots who believe weird things like Homer being a representation of Jesus of Socrates seeing the uncreated light. All that Greek stuff is outdated anyway. Kant came along and shattered all that mumbo jumbo.

What is outdated?
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« Reply #9 on: October 08, 2012, 04:37:27 AM »

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It also claimed that a church dedicated to St Elias (whom the book identified as Elisha, not Elijah) ...

This, alone, set off alarm bells. If such a basic mistake was made, I'd expect the rest of the book to be pretty sloppy in its scholarship. As for Elias/Helios, linguistically, there is no connection:

Elias = Ἠλίας

Helios =  Ἥλιος

The former has the "smooth" aspirant preceding the first letter, and the accent is on the second syllable. The latter has the "rough" aspirant preceding the first letter, and the accent is on the first syllable.



Off topic: how difficult is it to learn old biblical languages?
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« Reply #10 on: October 08, 2012, 05:27:38 AM »

All that Greek stuff is outdated anyway. Kant came along and shattered all that mumbo jumbo.

 Angry

I bet you haven't read Plato or Aristotle or any Greek philosopher or even Kant for that matter.


I read Nicomachean Ethics by Aristotle which I found kind of to be a waste of time because it was nothing I already did not know, it felt sort of tautological. I started the Republic by Plato but did not find it too appealing since Marx is a better political philosopher to me. And I've read articles and excerpts from Kant but not his full works.
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« Reply #11 on: October 08, 2012, 05:42:40 AM »

All that Greek stuff is outdated anyway. Kant came along and shattered all that mumbo jumbo.

 Angry

I bet you haven't read Plato or Aristotle or any Greek philosopher or even Kant for that matter.


I read Nicomachean Ethics by Aristotle which I found kind of to be a waste of time because it was nothing I already did not know, it felt sort of tautological. I started the Republic by Plato but did not find it too appealing since Marx is a better political philosopher to me. And I've read articles and excerpts from Kant but not his full works.
May I suggest that you explore some of Plato's other writings.
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« Reply #12 on: October 08, 2012, 06:10:56 AM »

Well, it depends on what you mean. The use of incense is found in both Old and New Testaments, and so our use of it in the Church is certainly not a borrowing from paganism. The way we use incense, however, comes from the court rituals of imperial Rome. Likewise the first cathedrals took the form of the basilica, which again has its origins in ancient Rome. Stylistically, our iconography has its origins in pre-Christian Hellenic art. The various styles of chant, whether Coptic, Byzantine, etc. have their origins in the music of the pagan cultures which preceded it. But so what?
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« Reply #13 on: October 08, 2012, 12:11:29 PM »

All this talk starts to remind me of my old Russian professor, who loved to tell us stories of the days in the CCCP, where they started off as young pioneers thanking the party for their liberties and happy lives, and upon becoming older and wiser began to sarcastically add under their breaths thanks to the party for the sun and the rain and the stars, too. Wink These "Zeitgeist"-type idiots do the same: Having rejected religion on "rational" grounds first, they later move on to seeing big conspiracies in everything, so that eventually they'd have us thanking the pagans for spawning our religion, too. Pfft. The next person who comes up to me with this "Jesus is Horus" garbage is getting a very irenic punch in the face. You know, without anger, but for the good of their own selves, so they actually start thinking about what they're saying and stop grabbing at disparate threads across centuries and unrelated cultures in an attempt to make Christianity fit into their insane postmodernist worldview that sees conspiracy and pagan iterations in everything.

Well said !
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« Reply #14 on: October 08, 2012, 12:27:21 PM »

Pagans believed and prayed. We also believe and pray. Does this mean that we adopted these from paganism?  Grin
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« Reply #15 on: October 08, 2012, 12:30:10 PM »


I read Nicomachean Ethics by Aristotle which I found kind of to be a waste of time because it was nothing I already did not know, it felt sort of tautological. I started the Republic by Plato but did not find it too appealing since Marx is a better political philosopher to me.

Then you really missed the point.

Also, saying Marx is a "better" political philosopher than Plato is a very un-Marxist sentiment. Marx would say Plato's philosophy was a product of his epoch and comparing ancient Greek philosophy to 19th century philosophy in terms of "better" or "worse" was ahistorical and idealist.
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« Reply #16 on: October 08, 2012, 12:32:08 PM »

All that Greek stuff is outdated anyway. Kant came along and shattered all that mumbo jumbo.

 Angry

I bet you haven't read Plato or Aristotle or any Greek philosopher or even Kant for that matter.


I read Nicomachean Ethics by Aristotle which I found kind of to be a waste of time because it was nothing I already did not know, it felt sort of tautological. I started the Republic by Plato but did not find it too appealing since Marx is a better political philosopher to me. And I've read articles and excerpts from Kant but not his full works.

And Marx would chastise you for not toughing it out and reading it in full.  If anything, Marx knew his Classics so he could better fight against any and all use of them by the capitalists.
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« Reply #17 on: October 08, 2012, 12:45:13 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!



I'm with Joseph Campbell on this one, and he was a devout and active Catholic.

I think we observe religious, cultural, and theological similarities between "pagans", Christians, Jews, and yes, even Muslims too, not because of literal borrowing from each other (though sometimes this is the case), but because these cultural manifestations stem from the same primal human subconscious archetypes like Carl Jung talks about.  Our subconscious mind shares the same collective imagery and symbolism, so we tend to apply the same intuitive understandings to the same things.  Its like what the Apostle Paul said about those who seem to follow the Law even in pagan practices.

Quote
for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves,  who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them
Romans 2

We share the same collective mind and human experience, so naturally we come to the same kinds of worship, the same use of religious symbolism, and the same kinds of cultural practices and taboos, stemming from a common source.  We could think of this source as the Holy Spirit.  My own two-cents is that I feel God gives us this commonality so that when by the Holy Spirit He brings folks into the Church through Baptism, the Church they come into is no so instinctively foreign Smiley

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #18 on: October 08, 2012, 02:38:58 PM »

Interesting read on this subject in terms of Russian Church history.... http://www.oxfordu.net/seoul/chapter7/index.html
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« Reply #19 on: October 08, 2012, 03:11:43 PM »

All that Greek stuff is outdated anyway. Kant came along and shattered all that mumbo jumbo.

 Angry

I bet you haven't read Plato or Aristotle or any Greek philosopher or even Kant for that matter.


I read Nicomachean Ethics by Aristotle which I found kind of to be a waste of time because it was nothing I already did not know, it felt sort of tautological. I started the Republic by Plato but did not find it too appealing since Marx is a better political philosopher to me. And I've read articles and excerpts from Kant but not his full works.

Why not read Plato's Symposion and Apologia? And I hope you didn't read the Politeia as a handbook for politics because it's not. The whole state is designed to show that dikaiosune (justice isn't a perfect translation) exists and isn't relative. Just my 2c.
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« Reply #20 on: October 08, 2012, 03:40:49 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Interesting read on this subject in terms of Russian Church history.... http://www.oxfordu.net/seoul/chapter7/index.html

I agree with the article, but I'm not quite sure syncreticism and dual-belief systems is the same as what the OP is asking about.  Perhaps we can infer that sometimes dual-beliefs evolve and become "borrowed" elements of otherwise Orthodox worship and practices, but from the contemporary analysis looking backwards, I am not quite sure we can always use this model.  Not every mutuallity between different religions and Christianity are inherently a product of dual-belief.  While the Christmas trees are probably an obvious example of contemporary dual-beliefs or syncreticism, something more complicated like incense or icons I think is less easily explained by this.


By the way, that was a great article, thanks for sharing it Smiley

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #21 on: October 08, 2012, 04:11:35 PM »

Also fair to mention that Christianity--Orthodoxy at least--has always been about compromise with converts so that the changes are not too drastic for the convert, hence why certain Trinitarian Baptisms are accepted as valid by the Church. Perhaps the same has been done throughout history with Pagan converts, where we take their elements and try to Christianise them or compromise to work with them, and perhaps that could account for any Pagan similarities in Christianity.
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« Reply #22 on: October 08, 2012, 09:23:59 PM »

They over look the possibility of incense being inspired by judaism.
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« Reply #23 on: October 08, 2012, 09:26:14 PM »

Also fair to mention that Christianity--Orthodoxy at least--has always been about compromise with converts so that the changes are not too drastic for the convert, hence why certain Trinitarian Baptisms are accepted as valid by the Church. Perhaps the same has been done throughout history with Pagan converts, where we take their elements and try to Christianise them or compromise to work with them, and perhaps that could account for any Pagan similarities in Christianity.

Ukrainian pisanki symbolism is a good example of this.
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« Reply #24 on: October 08, 2012, 10:42:24 PM »

I was looking through a book about Greece at the local library, and it mentioned that the Greek Orthodox Church had incorporated certain aspects from paganism, like the use of incense. It also claimed that a church dedicated to St Elias (whom the book identified as Elisha, not Elijah) was actually a reference to the pagan Helios.

So is there any truth that the Greek Orthodox Church, at least, has incorporated aspects from paganism or is that just a load of rubbish?

From the author's equation of the use of incense with paganism and weird misaplication of the Prophet Elisha instead of Elias, we can tell that the author is obviously insane.

Incense was used in the Jewish temple. There are quite a few references to it in the Old Testament and God killed people who made it not according to the recipe he gave. Churches dedicated to the Holy Prophet Elias are often placed on mountains because 1. St. Elias is associated with mountain tops in the Old Testamnet and 2. churches on top of mountains are cool and a source of comfort to the faithful and a proclamation of the presence and love of God to all.
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« Reply #25 on: October 08, 2012, 10:43:30 PM »

Kinda. I mean, we have the ultra-Greek pride zealots who believe weird things like Homer being a representation of Jesus of Socrates seeing the uncreated light. All that Greek stuff is outdated anyway. Kant came along and shattered all that mumbo jumbo.

Please be careful, James. People who say such things wind up in Greek hell. I don't think you want to eat gyros for eternity.
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« Reply #26 on: October 08, 2012, 10:45:32 PM »

All that Greek stuff is outdated anyway. Kant came along and shattered all that mumbo jumbo.

 Angry

I bet you haven't read Plato or Aristotle or any Greek philosopher or even Kant for that matter.

Kant is what they have to read in German hell. Much gnashing of teeth there.
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« Reply #27 on: October 08, 2012, 10:48:25 PM »

Also fair to mention that Christianity--Orthodoxy at least--has always been about compromise with converts so that the changes are not too drastic for the convert, hence why certain Trinitarian Baptisms are accepted as valid by the Church. Perhaps the same has been done throughout history with Pagan converts, where we take their elements and try to Christianise them or compromise to work with them, and perhaps that could account for any Pagan similarities in Christianity.

facepalm smiley here
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« Reply #28 on: October 08, 2012, 10:50:15 PM »

All that Greek stuff is outdated anyway. Kant came along and shattered all that mumbo jumbo.

 Angry

I bet you haven't read Plato or Aristotle or any Greek philosopher or even Kant for that matter.

Kant is what they have to read in German hell. Much gnashing of teeth there.

As would be the case with Irish hell - James Joyce. GAAAAK!!
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« Reply #29 on: October 08, 2012, 10:56:50 PM »

All that Greek stuff is outdated anyway. Kant came along and shattered all that mumbo jumbo.

 Angry

I bet you haven't read Plato or Aristotle or any Greek philosopher or even Kant for that matter.

Kant is what they have to read in German hell. Much gnashing of teeth there.

As would be the case with Irish hell - James Joyce. GAAAAK!!

Agreed. And no whisky there to wash it down.
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« Reply #30 on: October 08, 2012, 11:41:28 PM »

But in Greek hell you would have that dreadful evil eye  on you all of the time!
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« Reply #31 on: October 08, 2012, 11:51:25 PM »

In Greek Hell you have to man up and pay your taxes as punishment, with no aid from the EU to bail you out of your economic problems  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #32 on: October 08, 2012, 11:53:45 PM »

But in Greek hell you would have that dreadful evil eye  on you all of the time!

It's there in Slavic hell as well!  There is no escape! Shocked  Tongue

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« Reply #33 on: October 08, 2012, 11:54:33 PM »

Who says paganism can't be sanctified?
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« Reply #34 on: October 09, 2012, 12:16:19 AM »

But in Greek hell you would have that dreadful evil eye  on you all of the time!

It's there in Slavic hell as well!  There is no escape! Shocked  Tongue



It maybe just your personal hell, LBK.

I find it unfortunate that icon lacked an image of Rasputin holding a baby Stalin
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« Reply #35 on: October 09, 2012, 12:17:15 AM »

Who says paganism can't be sanctified?

Well, it depends. Can child sacrifice be redeemed? The author in the OP was calling things pagan that were not.
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« Reply #36 on: October 09, 2012, 12:29:10 AM »

Who says paganism can't be sanctified?

Well, it depends. Can child sacrifice be redeemed? The author in the OP was calling things pagan that were not.
Fair enough. Not everything can be given a Christian meaning.

But just because something came from a non-Christian, non-Jewish origin doesn't it is beyond redemption.

A great example of incorporating paganism comes from our own Scriptures.

Then Paul stood in the midst of Mars' hill, and said, Ye men of Athens, I perceive that in all things ye are too superstitious. For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, To The Unknown God. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you. God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands; Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things; And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us: For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.

St. Paul takes the local paganism and turns it into Christianity.

Heck, to prove his point, he quotes a pagan poem about a pagan god but applies it to the true God.

Who said Orthodoxy isn't triumphalist?
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« Reply #37 on: October 09, 2012, 12:31:07 AM »

But in Greek hell you would have that dreadful evil eye  on you all of the time!

It's there in Slavic hell as well!  There is no escape! Shocked  Tongue



It maybe just your personal hell, LBK.

I find it unfortunate that icon lacked an image of Rasputin holding a baby Stalin

My schlock file has "icons" of both Stalin and Rasputin, and of Ivan IV (The Terrible). Don't tempt me to post them!  Shocked laugh
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« Reply #38 on: October 09, 2012, 12:42:33 AM »

But in Greek hell you would have that dreadful evil eye  on you all of the time!

It's there in Slavic hell as well!  There is no escape! Shocked  Tongue



It maybe just your personal hell, LBK.

I find it unfortunate that icon lacked an image of Rasputin holding a baby Stalin

My schlock file has "icons" of both Stalin and Rasputin, and of Ivan IV (The Terrible). Don't tempt me to post them!  Shocked laugh

If you have an icon of Ivan IV and Stalin embracing like Sts. Peter and Paul, you're obligated to post it.
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« Reply #39 on: October 09, 2012, 01:02:15 AM »

But in Greek hell you would have that dreadful evil eye  on you all of the time!

It's there in Slavic hell as well!  There is no escape! Shocked  Tongue



It maybe just your personal hell, LBK.

I find it unfortunate that icon lacked an image of Rasputin holding a baby Stalin

My schlock file has "icons" of both Stalin and Rasputin, and of Ivan IV (The Terrible). Don't tempt me to post them!  Shocked laugh

If you have an icon of Ivan IV and Stalin embracing like Sts. Peter and Paul, you're obligated to post it.

Haven't come across one like that, but I bet some rabid ultranationalist idiot somewhere in Russia is painting one as we speak.  Shocked  laugh
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« Reply #40 on: October 09, 2012, 08:19:25 AM »

Hi All,

Been reading some of the replies, If Paganism stole from Judaism and Christianity, where did the idea of the Son of God come from What makes Christianity's Son of God (Our Lord Jesus Christ) different from pagan sons of god's ie: Hercules son of god of zeus, Mithra born of a virgin women or rock ? Mithra was also a son of god.

How come Christianity is so closely related to some of the pagan worshiping methods of God ?, did the demons create this false application in influencing humans to create idols in the false form of a trinity god, sons of gods so they can distort the real TRUTH of God?. To Apply a false, confusing and misleading message to us human of who God really is ?.



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« Reply #41 on: October 09, 2012, 08:30:00 AM »

Hi All,

Been reading some of the replies, If Paganism stole from Judaism and Christianity, where did the idea of the Son of God come from What makes Christianity's Son of God (Our Lord Jesus Christ) different from pagan sons of god's ie: Hercules son of god of zeus, Mithra born of a virgin women or rock ? Mithra was also a son of god.

How come Christianity is so closely related to some of the pagan worshiping methods of God ?, did the demons create this false application in influencing humans to create idols in the false form of a trinity god, sons of gods so they can distort the real TRUTH of God?. To Apply a false, confusing and misleading message to us human of who God really is ?.


They're nowhere near as similar (in fact only extremely superficially do they have any similarity at all) as you seem to believe. To take your two examples, Hercules is a demi-god (so half and half) born of Zeus having a physical relationship with his mother Alcmene. This is nothing like the Incarnation. Similarly, despite the claims to the contrary that are often heard Mithra wasn't born of a virgin, or even born at all really, but was pulled fully formed from a rock. And as for any alleged similarities between Mithraism and Christianity, even if they were to exist you couldn't argue that the pre-date Christianity. Almost everything we know about the Mithraic cult in the Empire is contemporary with the early Church (about 1st -4th century) and bears little resemblance to the pre-Christian Iranian belief in Mithra from which it supposedly derives.

James
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« Reply #42 on: October 09, 2012, 11:10:27 AM »

But in Greek hell you would have that dreadful evil eye  on you all of the time!

It's there in Slavic hell as well!  There is no escape! Shocked  Tongue



It maybe just your personal hell, LBK.

I find it unfortunate that icon lacked an image of Rasputin holding a baby Stalin

My schlock file has "icons" of both Stalin and Rasputin, and of Ivan IV (The Terrible). Don't tempt me to post them!  Shocked laugh

If you have an icon of Ivan IV and Stalin embracing like Sts. Peter and Paul, you're obligated to post it.

Haven't come across one like that, but I bet some rabid ultranationalist idiot somewhere in Russia is painting one as we speak.  Shocked  laugh

Oh if only someone would have the forethought, though it go against the grain, to put such on the Internet! (I'm about to choke on sarcasm here.)
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« Reply #43 on: October 09, 2012, 11:13:47 AM »

But in Greek hell you would have that dreadful evil eye  on you all of the time!

It's there in Slavic hell as well!  There is no escape! Shocked  Tongue



It maybe just your personal hell, LBK.

I find it unfortunate that icon lacked an image of Rasputin holding a baby Stalin

My schlock file has "icons" of both Stalin and Rasputin, and of Ivan IV (The Terrible). Don't tempt me to post them!  Shocked laugh

If you have an icon of Ivan IV and Stalin embracing like Sts. Peter and Paul, you're obligated to post it.

Haven't come across one like that, but I bet some rabid ultranationalist idiot somewhere in Russia is painting one as we speak.  Shocked  laugh

Oh if only someone would have the forethought, though it go against the grain, to put such on the Internet! (I'm about to choke on sarcasm here.)

If it's any consolation, I've come across hymnography written for "saints" Ivan the Terrible, Stalin, and Rasputin.  Tongue Tongue Tongue
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« Reply #44 on: October 09, 2012, 11:18:09 AM »

But in Greek hell you would have that dreadful evil eye  on you all of the time!

It's there in Slavic hell as well!  There is no escape! Shocked  Tongue



It maybe just your personal hell, LBK.

I find it unfortunate that icon lacked an image of Rasputin holding a baby Stalin

My schlock file has "icons" of both Stalin and Rasputin, and of Ivan IV (The Terrible). Don't tempt me to post them!  Shocked laugh

If you have an icon of Ivan IV and Stalin embracing like Sts. Peter and Paul, you're obligated to post it.

Haven't come across one like that, but I bet some rabid ultranationalist idiot somewhere in Russia is painting one as we speak.  Shocked  laugh

Oh if only someone would have the forethought, though it go against the grain, to put such on the Internet! (I'm about to choke on sarcasm here.)

If it's any consolation, I've come across hymnography written for "saints" Ivan the Terrible, Stalin, and Rasputin.  Tongue Tongue Tongue

I can almost hear the vesperal stichera starting with "O most marvellous wonder..." and verily it would be.
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« Reply #45 on: October 09, 2012, 11:31:12 AM »

Did someone ask for an icon of Stalin? Here he is:

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« Reply #46 on: October 09, 2012, 11:39:06 AM »


My name will be great among the nations, from the rising to the setting of the sun. In every place incense and pure offerings will be brought to my name, because my name will be great among the nations," says the LORD Almighty.

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Do orthodox ever use incense drawn from local areas to represent the global nature of the kingdom?  Does God only want to smell southwest Asian incense?
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« Reply #47 on: October 09, 2012, 01:03:15 PM »

Did someone ask for an icon of Stalin? Here he is:

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« Reply #48 on: October 09, 2012, 07:31:13 PM »

Did someone ask for an icon of Stalin? Here he is:


I am in disbelief.  Do we know the origins of this icon?
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« Reply #49 on: October 09, 2012, 09:59:43 PM »

Did someone ask for an icon of Stalin? Here he is:
I am in disbelief.  Do we know the origins of this icon?

Yes we do. It's out of the rabid Russian ultranationalist brigade, who have also written a troparion (reproduced in the ornately-bordered panel below Stalin's image) and kontakion for him.  Tongue Both "hymns" are in Slavonic (or, what passes for it), I can post a rough translation if folks are interested.

The irony is that the same idiots are also gunning for "Saint" Rasputin (they call him "St Gregory the New"), and wax lyrical about the glories of imperial Russia, especially of "Saint" Ivan IV. Ummm, last time I checked, Bolshevism booted out the Tsars and assassinated a good number of the imperial family ....  And. of course, there's the small matter of all those thousands and thousands of people whom the Russian church has rightly glorified as New Martyrs and Confessors. Remind me again of why they were made to suffer, and by whom? Roll Eyes

The inscription goes further than most in its blasphemy, in that it styles Stalin as "Holy Martyr". This is reinforced by the small panel on the right, which shows Stalin being smothered in bed. Seems these folks believe in a conspiracy that Stalin was murdered, and not that he was felled by a stroke. There is also a depiction of the Moscow Cathedral of Christ the Savior on the lower right, the very church that Stalin personally ordered be destroyed in 1931, commissioning a film crew to officially document the destruction, as a proclamation of the triumph of Soviet atheism. Ridiculous.  Angry

And it's not a proper icon, not that I really needed to say that ...  Wink
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« Reply #50 on: October 09, 2012, 10:13:42 PM »

Did someone ask for an icon of Stalin? Here he is:


I am in disbelief.  Do we know the origins of this icon?

You probably mean besides the bowels of hell.
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« Reply #51 on: October 09, 2012, 10:18:42 PM »

Did someone ask for an icon of Stalin? Here he is:
I am in disbelief.  Do we know the origins of this icon?

Yes we do. It's out of the rabid Russian ultranationalist brigade, who have also written a troparion (reproduced in the ornately-bordered panel below Stalin's image) and kontakion for him.  Tongue Both "hymns" are in Slavonic (or, what passes for it), I can post a rough translation if folks are interested.

The irony is that the same idiots are also gunning for "Saint" Rasputin (they call him "St Gregory the New"), and wax lyrical about the glories of imperial Russia, especially of "Saint" Ivan IV. Ummm, last time I checked, Bolshevism booted out the Tsars and assassinated a good number of the imperial family ....  And. of course, there's the small matter of all those thousands and thousands of people whom the Russian church has rightly glorified as New Martyrs and Confessors. Remind me again of why they were made to suffer, and by whom? Roll Eyes

The inscription goes further than most in its blasphemy, in that it styles Stalin as "Holy Martyr". This is reinforced by the small panel on the right, which shows Stalin being smothered in bed. Seems these folks believe in a conspiracy that Stalin was murdered, and not that he was felled by a stroke. There is also a depiction of the Moscow Cathedral of Christ the Savior on the lower right, the very church that Stalin personally ordered be destroyed in 1931, commissioning a film crew to officially document the destruction, as a proclamation of the triumph of Soviet atheism. Ridiculous.  Angry

And it's not a proper icon, not that I really needed to say that ...  Wink

Well, I thought he died "under mysterious circumstances."

Also heard he died listening to the well-known believer Maria Yudina play Mozart on a record. He liked her playing so much, he sent her a lot of money. Maria sent him back a letter saying roughly, "Thank you for the money. I gave it to my church. As for you, I pray every day that God forgive you for your sins before him and the Russian people." Henchmen waited for him to twitch an eyebrow as a signal to arrest her, but he just laid the letter down and nothing happened to her. She outlived him. She would openly tell guests, while cleaning the table of crumbs after dinner, "I have two enemies--crumbs and the Soviet power." Her sister used to hold a large icon of Panagia in the audience at her concerts. Because of her public faith, she was not allowed to leave the USSR for concerts in foreign countries. She was a great lady and a brilliant pianist, IMO.
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« Reply #52 on: October 10, 2012, 07:40:01 AM »

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They're nowhere near as similar (in fact only extremely superficially do they have any similarity at all) as you seem to believe. To take your two examples, Hercules is a demi-god (so half and half) born of Zeus having a physical relationship with his mother Alcmene. This is nothing like the Incarnation. Similarly, despite the claims to the contrary that are often heard Mithra wasn't born of a virgin, or even born at all really, but was pulled fully formed from a rock. And as for any alleged similarities between Mithraism and Christianity, even if they were to exist you couldn't argue that the pre-date Christianity. Almost everything we know about the Mithraic cult in the Empire is contemporary with the early Church (about 1st -4th century) and bears little resemblance to the pre-Christian Iranian belief in Mithra from which it supposedly derives.

James

Thanks for that information : ) I have not really cross referenced Christianity and pagan beliefs thoroughly but will.

I have a question why didn't God during the Old Testament reveal himself completely to the Jews ? But I do believe the Prophets knew who God was "Triune" in nature yet did not mention his Complete Essence I,e. Father, Son, Holy Spirit. Why is that the case he was not completely revealed like he was in the New Testament ?.

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« Reply #53 on: October 10, 2012, 08:45:58 AM »

Quote
They're nowhere near as similar (in fact only extremely superficially do they have any similarity at all) as you seem to believe. To take your two examples, Hercules is a demi-god (so half and half) born of Zeus having a physical relationship with his mother Alcmene. This is nothing like the Incarnation. Similarly, despite the claims to the contrary that are often heard Mithra wasn't born of a virgin, or even born at all really, but was pulled fully formed from a rock. And as for any alleged similarities between Mithraism and Christianity, even if they were to exist you couldn't argue that the pre-date Christianity. Almost everything we know about the Mithraic cult in the Empire is contemporary with the early Church (about 1st -4th century) and bears little resemblance to the pre-Christian Iranian belief in Mithra from which it supposedly derives.

James

Thanks for that information : ) I have not really cross referenced Christianity and pagan beliefs thoroughly but will.

I have a question why didn't God during the Old Testament reveal himself completely to the Jews ? But I do believe the Prophets knew who God was "Triune" in nature yet did not mention his Complete Essence I,e. Father, Son, Holy Spirit. Why is that the case he was not completely revealed like he was in the New Testament ?.



The Trinity is in the OT, actually. The Spirit of God hovered over the water, Christ in Jesaja 6 etc. etc.
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« Reply #54 on: October 10, 2012, 10:43:37 AM »

Did someone ask for an icon of Stalin? Here he is:
I am in disbelief.  Do we know the origins of this icon?

Yes we do. It's out of the rabid Russian ultranationalist brigade, who have also written a troparion (reproduced in the ornately-bordered panel below Stalin's image) and kontakion for him.  Tongue Both "hymns" are in Slavonic (or, what passes for it), I can post a rough translation if folks are interested.

The irony is that the same idiots are also gunning for "Saint" Rasputin (they call him "St Gregory the New"), and wax lyrical about the glories of imperial Russia, especially of "Saint" Ivan IV. Ummm, last time I checked, Bolshevism booted out the Tsars and assassinated a good number of the imperial family ....  And. of course, there's the small matter of all those thousands and thousands of people whom the Russian church has rightly glorified as New Martyrs and Confessors. Remind me again of why they were made to suffer, and by whom? Roll Eyes

The inscription goes further than most in its blasphemy, in that it styles Stalin as "Holy Martyr". This is reinforced by the small panel on the right, which shows Stalin being smothered in bed. Seems these folks believe in a conspiracy that Stalin was murdered, and not that he was felled by a stroke. There is also a depiction of the Moscow Cathedral of Christ the Savior on the lower right, the very church that Stalin personally ordered be destroyed in 1931, commissioning a film crew to officially document the destruction, as a proclamation of the triumph of Soviet atheism. Ridiculous.  Angry

And it's not a proper icon, not that I really needed to say that ...  Wink
Very interesting.  Thank you!
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« Reply #55 on: October 10, 2012, 04:22:21 PM »

No .. that is THE STORY OF CHRISTIANITY.. paralelism with pagan and jewish mythologies merged together into a syncretic religion/philosophy..
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« Reply #56 on: October 13, 2012, 02:37:54 PM »

Having once over-lengthily traversed in separated Rome and among its adherents, I remember such questions being asked of the papists as well. This may be why you are asking, as you stand at the crossroads of 1054 inquiring about where the road leads between Schism and Pentecost, and who swerved  Wink. I have seen archaelogical /artifactual images that seem to conclude that the Roman mitres are exact replicas of the Babylonian fish-god, Dagon's haberdashery. Wouldn't surprise me, really. That said, I agree with others who say or imply with St, Paul that we should "...avoid foolish questions...[ ]...and contentions..." (Titus) and again in 2 Timothy 2:23. I understand such contentions seem to have some bearing on our inquiring (I am a catechumen), but the exhortations to "Come and see" (Gospels)and to "taste and see" (Psalms) invite us to the reality Itself which doesn't need historians and archaeologists to commend or qualify it, though their work, when done in the service of Truth, is a gift.

God Bless you on your journey!

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« Reply #57 on: October 13, 2012, 03:58:43 PM »

No .. that is THE STORY OF CHRISTIANITY.. paralelism with pagan and jewish mythologies merged together into a syncretic religion/philosophy..

 Roll Eyes

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« Reply #58 on: October 13, 2012, 09:32:02 PM »

"Syncretic"? You mean like quoting Mahatma Gandhi's anti-religious babble in your signature, while posting nothing but your own version of it in your endless anti-Christ topics, and all the while calling yourself Orthodox?
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« Reply #59 on: October 14, 2012, 08:39:43 AM »

"Syncretic"? You mean like quoting Mahatma Gandhi's anti-religious babble in your signature, while posting nothing but your own version of it in your endless anti-Christ topics, and all the while calling yourself Orthodox?

take that : http://listverse.com/2009/04/13/10-christ-like-figures-who-pre-date-jesus/

and that : http://www.beliefnet.com/Faiths/2000/02/Jesus-And-Buddha-The-Parallel-Sayings.aspx

and that : http://www.heartforpeace.net/quotes_of_the_day.php


and this :

Justin Martyr

Quote
And when we say also that the Word, who is the first-birth of God, was produced without sexual union, and that He, Jesus Christ, our Teacher, was crucified and died, and rose again, and ascended into heaven, we propound nothing different from what you believe regarding those whom you esteem sons of Jupiter.

Quote
For having heard it proclaimed through the prophets that the Christ was to come, and that the ungodly among men were to be punished by fire, [wicked demons] put forward many to be called sons of Jupiter, under the impression that they would be able to produce in men the idea that the things which were said with regard to Christ were mere marvelous tales, like the things which were said by the poets.

The devils... said that Bacchus was the son of Jupiter, and gave out that he was the discoverer of the vine, and they number wine among his mysteries; and they taught that, having been torn in pieces, he ascended into heaven. (Referring to Jesus turning water to wine as Dionysus, or Bacchus, did 600 years earlier.)

[The devils] gave out that Bellerophon, a man born of man, himself ascended to heaven on his horse Pegasus. (Reference to Jesus riding into town on an ass.)

And when [the devils] heard it said by the other prophet Isaiah, that He should be born of a virgin, and by His own means ascend into heaven, they pretended that Perseus was spoken of. (Reference to Perseus being born of a virgin before Jesus.)

And when, again, [the devils] learned that it had been foretold that He should heal every sickness, and raise the dead, they produced Aesculapius. (Reference to virtually all of the miracles of Jesus being copies of Aesculapius.)

Quote
And the devils, indeed, having heard this washing [baptism] published by the prophet, instigated those who enter their temples, and are about to approach them with libations and burnt-offerings, also to sprinkle themselves.

Quote
And this food is called among us Eucharistia, of which no one is allowed to partake but the man who believes that the things which we teach are true, and who has been washed with the washing that is for the remission of sins, and unto regeneration, and who is so living as Christ has enjoined. For not as common bread and common drink do we receive these; but in like manner as Jesus Christ our Saviour, having been made flesh by the Word of God, had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so likewise have we been taught that the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word, and from which our blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished, is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh. For the apostles, in the memoirs composed by them, which are called Gospels, have thus delivered unto us what was enjoined upon them; that Jesus took bread, and when He had given thanks, said, "This do ye in remembrance of Me, this is My body"; and that, after the same manner, having taken the cup and given thanks, He said, "This is My blood"; and gave it to them alone. Which the wicked devils have imitated in the mysteries of Mithras, commanding the same thing to be done. For, that bread and a cup of water are placed with certain incantations in the mystic rites of one who is being initiated, you either know or can learn.

Quote
...And this very solemnity, too, the evil spirits have introduced into the "Mysteries of Mithra"; for you do or may know that when anyone is initiated into this religion, bread and a cup of water, with a certain form of words, are made use of in the sacrifice. (Taylor, lxiii)


Quote
ALLEGED QUOTE: Having heard it proclaimed through the prophets that the Christ was to come and that the ungodly among men were to be
punished by fire, the wicked spirits put forward many to be called Sons of God under the impression that they would be able to produce in men
the idea that the things that were said with regard to Christ were merely marvellous tales, like the things that were said by the poets. Justin
Martyr First Apology, Chapter 54 (LIV)/quote]

Keep in mind that these pagan religions all came first. Justin Martyr is not claiming that they copied Christianity after Jesus came, but that "wicked devils" knew ahead of time of Jesus' coming, and thus set up pre-copies of Christianity.

Tertullian
Quote
Tertullian [Tertullian, /Praescr./, ch. 40.] states that the worshippers of Mithra practiced baptism by water, through which they were thought to be redeemed from sin, and that the priest made a sign upon the forehead of the person baptized; but as this was also a Christian rite, Tertullian declares that the Devil must have effected the coincidence for his wicked ends. "The Devil'', he also writes, "imitates even the main parts of our divine mysteries", and "has gone about to apply to the worship of idols those very things of which the administration of Christ's sacraments consists"./quote]



Quote
"The devil, whose business is to pervert the truth, mimics the exact circumstances of the Divine Sacraments. He baptises
his believers and promises forgiveness of sins from the Sacred Fount, and thereby initiates them into the religion of Mithras. Thus he
celebrates the oblation of bread and brings in the symbol of the resurrection [the cross]. Let us, therefore, acknowledge the craftiness of the
devil who copies certain things of those that be Divine."

Quote
The
Prescription Against Heretics:

The question will arise, By whom is to be interpreted the sense of the passages which make for heresies? By the devil, of course, to whom pertain those wiles which pervert the truth, and who, by the mystic rites of his idols, vies even with the essential portions of the sacraments of God. He, too, baptizes somethat is, his own believers and faithful followers; he promises the putting away of sins by a layer (of his own); and if my memory still serves me, Mithra there, (in the kingdom of Satan) sets his marks on the foreheads of his soldiers; celebrates also the oblation of bread, and introduces an image of a resurrection, and before a sword wreathes a crown. What also must we say to (Satan's) limiting his chief priest to a single marriage? He, too, has his virgins; he, too, has his proficients in continence. Suppose now we revolve in our minds the superstitions of Numa Pompilius, and consider his priestly offices and badges and privileges, his sacrificial services, too, and the instruments and vessels of the sacrifices themselves, and the curious rites of his expiations and vows: is it not clear to us that the devil imitated the well-known moroseness of the Jewish law? Since, therefore he has sown such emulation in his great aim of expressing, in the concerns of his idolatry, those very things of which consists the administration of Christ's sacraments, it follows, of course, that the same being, possessing still the same genius, both set his heart upon, and succeeded in, adapting to his profane and rival creed the very documents of divine things and of the Christian saints... (Roberts (1870), 15.48) Chapter 40 (XL)

Quote
"They cheat themselves with waters which are widowed. For washing is the channel through which they are initiated into some sacred rites of
some notorious Isis or Mithras... We recognise here also the zeal of the devil rivalling the things of God, while we find him, too, practising
baptism in his subjects. What similarity is there? The unclean cleanses! The ruiner sets free! The damned absolves! He will, forsooth, destroy
his own work, by washing away the sins which himself inspires! These (remarks) have been set down by way of testimony against such as
reject the faith. If they put no trust in the things of God, the spurious imitations of which, in the case of God's rival, they do trust in. Are there
not other cases too, in which, without any sacrament, unclean spirits brood on waters, in spurious imitation of that brooding of the Divine Spirit
in the very beginning?" On Baptism Chapter 5
/quote]

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« Reply #60 on: October 14, 2012, 09:28:15 AM »

Why do you call yourself Orthodox?

Besides, mithraism came later than christianity, so if anything mithraism copied christianity.
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« Reply #61 on: October 14, 2012, 01:09:39 PM »

Buddha is ante-Christ.
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« Reply #62 on: October 14, 2012, 01:38:41 PM »

More mindless babble and quote mining that proves nothing.

Your reply to my question is as close to a non-response as is humanly possible while still technically typing words (or in this case, cutting and pasting words; apparently coming up with your own reply requires a bit too much brain power from you). You shame the Fathers by abusing their words in service of your absolute stupidity, and the word "Orthodox" belongs as far from you as Mithra does from Christ (i.e., they have absolutely nothing to do with each other). It is a credit to this entire site that you have not been banned yet, and really to God's mercy that He should allow you to continually blaspheme Him and still be alive, despite all indications that you are really taking your existence and other peoples' patience for granted.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2012, 01:43:20 PM by dzheremi » Logged

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« Reply #63 on: October 14, 2012, 03:19:20 PM »

Why do you call yourself Orthodox?

Besides, mithraism came later than christianity, so if anything mithraism copied christianity.

Mithraism precedes Christianity.The adoption of the Mithraic religion in the Roman Empire is as early as 1st century or even earlier.

Quote
Mithraism arrived fully mature at Rome with the return of the legions from the east in the first century BC. As an action god of armies and the champion of heroes, he appealed to the professional Roman soldiers, who carried his cult to Iberia, Britain, the German frontiers and Dacia.

The cult of Mithras began to attract attention at Rome about the end of the first century AD, perhaps in connection with the conquest of then-Zoroastrian Armenia. The earliest material evidence for the Roman worship of Mithras dates from that period, in a record of Roman soldiers who came from the military garrison at Carnuntum in the Roman province of Upper Pannonia (near the Danube River in modern Austria, near the Hungarian border). These soldiers fought against the Parthians and were involved in the suppression of the revolts in Jerusalem from 60 A.D. to about 70 A.D. When they returned home, they made Mithraic dedications, probably in the year 71 or 72.

Statius mentions the typical Mithraic relief in his Thebaid (Book i. 719,720), around A. D. 80; Plutarch's Life of Pompey also makes it clear that the worship of Mithras was well known at that time.

http://www.crystalinks.com/mithraism.html
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« Reply #64 on: October 14, 2012, 03:19:20 PM »

Why do you call yourself Orthodox?

Besides, mithraism came later than christianity, so if anything mithraism copied christianity.

Mithraism in the Roman Empire is at least as old as christianity maybe older.Mithraism as a religious precedes Christianity with 1400 years.
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« Reply #65 on: October 14, 2012, 03:19:20 PM »

Buddha is ante-Christ.

yes ante-Christ. =) . lol
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« Reply #66 on: October 15, 2012, 05:26:49 AM »

Why do you call yourself Orthodox?

Besides, mithraism came later than christianity, so if anything mithraism copied christianity.

Mithraism in the Roman Empire is at least as old as christianity maybe older.Mithraism as a religious precedes Christianity with 1400 years.

But Mithraism in the context of the Roman Empire bears little resemblance to the Persian worship of Mithras that pre-dates it. So little, in fact, that you really can't call it the same religion. Roman Mithraism was a syncretic cult that absorbed the figure of Mithras. This is quite similar to the way some gnostic cults absorbed the figure of Christ. In neither case is the syncretic cult that uses the figure a direct descendent of the faith in which the figure was originally found.

James
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« Reply #67 on: October 15, 2012, 02:30:44 PM »

Why do you call yourself Orthodox?

Besides, mithraism came later than christianity, so if anything mithraism copied christianity.

Mithraism in the Roman Empire is at least as old as christianity maybe older.Mithraism as a religious precedes Christianity with 1400 years.

But Mithraism in the context of the Roman Empire bears little resemblance to the Persian worship of Mithras that pre-dates it. So little, in fact, that you really can't call it the same religion. Roman Mithraism was a syncretic cult that absorbed the figure of Mithras. This is quite similar to the way some gnostic cults absorbed the figure of Christ. In neither case is the syncretic cult that uses the figure a direct descendent of the faith in which the figure was originally found.

James

Keep telling yourself that.. the secret rites of Mythra were being performed in 67 BC in Cilicia.Sculptures of the roman version of Mithras slaying a bull were being produced by Greek sculptors in Pergamum in the 2nd century BC.Both this dates precede not only christianity but even the birth of Christ.

"It is tempting to identify the Roman Mithras with the Persian Mithra, except that there is no known Persian legend or text about Mithra killing a bull or being associated with other animals. On the other hand, there is a story of Ahriman, the evil god in popular developments of Zoroastrianism, killing a bull. It is also hard to explain how the Sun-god Mithra would come to be worshipped in the windowless, cave-like mithraeum.

A possible link between Persia and Rome, which could be the stage for these changes, may be the kingdoms of Parthia and Pontus in Asia Minor. Several of their kings were called Mithradates, meaning "given by Mithra", starting with Mithradates I of Parthia (died 138 BC). It would seem that, in those kingdoms, Mithra was a god whose power lent luster even to a king. And it was at Pergamum, in the 2nd century BC, that Greek sculptors started to produce bas-relief imagery of Mithra Taurocthonos, "Mithra the bull-slayer." Although the cult of Mithras never caught on in the Greek homeland, those sculptures may indicate the route between Persian Mithra and Roman Mithras.

Around the first century AD, the Greek historian Plutarch wrote about pirates of Cilicia who practiced the Mithraic "secret rites" around 67 BC. Since Cilicia was the coastal province in the southeast of Anatolia, the Mithras mentioned by Plutarch may have been worship of the Persian god Mithra; or may have been associated with Ahriman, the Persian god who killed a bull."

Mithraism arrived at Rome fully matured in the 1st century bc, before Christ.

"Mithraism arrived fully mature at Rome with the return of the legions from the east in the first century BC. As an action god of armies and the champion of heroes, he appealed to the professional Roman soldiers, who carried his cult to Iberia, Britain, the German frontiers and Dacia.

The cult of Mithras began to attract attention at Rome about the end of the first century AD, perhaps in connection with the conquest of then-Zoroastrian Armenia. The earliest material evidence for the Roman worship of Mithras dates from that period, in a record of Roman soldiers who came from the military garrison at Carnuntum in the Roman province of Upper Pannonia (near the Danube River in modern Austria, near the Hungarian border). These soldiers fought against the Parthians and were involved in the suppression of the revolts in Jerusalem from 60 A.D. to about 70 A.D. When they returned home, they made Mithraic dedications, probably in the year 71 or 72.

Statius mentions the typical Mithraic relief in his Thebaid (Book i. 719,720), around A. D. 80; Plutarch's Life of Pompey also makes it clear that the worship of Mithras was well known at that time."

http://www.crystalinks.com/mithraism.html

The question of the origin of Mithraism has intrigued scholars for many years. Franz Cumont, one of the greatest students of Mithraism, theorized that the roots of the Roman6mystery religion were in ancient Iran. He identified the ancient Aryan deity who appears in Persian literature as Mithra with the Hindu god Mitra of the Vedic hymns. Mithra/Mitra was a solar deity. With the coming of Zoroastrianism to Persia in the
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« Reply #68 on: October 16, 2012, 11:05:25 AM »

No .. that is THE STORY OF CHRISTIANITY.. paralelism with pagan and jewish mythologies merged together into a syncretic religion/philosophy..
I think you have a point, in the sense that Christianity occupies the middle ground between Jewish "mono"theism and Ancient Near Eastern "poly"theism. From The Religious Spirit of the Slavs, 1916, by the Rev. Father Nicolai Velimirovic:

Quote
What is the number of these powers surrounding us? "Many," answered Paganism. "One only," answered Judaism and Islam. "One in Trinity," answered Christianity.

So—Christianity is a viá media between limitless Polytheism and absolute Monotheism. Professor Haeckel of Jena, in his hatred of Christianity, instanced Mohammedanism as a better religion and scornfully called the Christian religion "Polytheism." The definition is not altogether untrue. Paganism was not wholly false. The Christian dogma of the Trinity in relation to this world symbolically means unity in multitude. This dogma expresses a principle, an idea, rather than a number. As we cannot define God's being chemically, historically, psychologically, etc., how can we hope to define Him mathematically? God is beyond numbers; He is beyond scientific research; beyond all expression. One in three, that is half-way to Polytheism and to Monotheism. One in three gives the substance of God's life and binds Him to His own work, the created world.
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« Reply #69 on: October 16, 2012, 11:15:28 AM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Why do you call yourself Orthodox?

Besides, mithraism came later than christianity, so if anything mithraism copied christianity.

That is true by the way.  One of the problems with Protestantism is in order to connect symbolically their own persecutions under Reformation these folks exaggerated the degree of persecution during the time of the Martyrs.  Its not to diminish their sacrifice, but the actual history of Christian persecution during the Roman era is scattered and isolated to specific times, situations, and regions.  During those first 300 years we had open and public churches, were sometimes quite visible in our communities, and were only forced underground during very specific and limited times.  These times were indeed as horrific as the Synaxarium suggests, and I would never diminish their sacrifice or the suffering we endured, but we shouldn't infer from the Martyrs that every single day of Christianity before Constantine was a life and death struggle to survive.  We had affluent communities, we had public places of worship, we were visible.  How else could we have survived as an institutional Church for three centuries?

That being said, yes, it is a fact that Mithraism may have indeed borrowed from Christianity, because this cult was most popular in the mid-third century.  True, it was just after the Diocletian persecutions, we the Church bounced back from that, just like Saint Athanasius came back from his several exiles by God's enduring Grace.

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #70 on: October 16, 2012, 11:28:57 AM »

Why do you call yourself Orthodox?

Besides, mithraism came later than christianity, so if anything mithraism copied christianity.

Mithraism in the Roman Empire is at least as old as christianity maybe older.Mithraism as a religious precedes Christianity with 1400 years.

But Mithraism in the context of the Roman Empire bears little resemblance to the Persian worship of Mithras that pre-dates it. So little, in fact, that you really can't call it the same religion. Roman Mithraism was a syncretic cult that absorbed the figure of Mithras. This is quite similar to the way some gnostic cults absorbed the figure of Christ. In neither case is the syncretic cult that uses the figure a direct descendent of the faith in which the figure was originally found.

James

Keep telling yourself that.. the secret rites of Mythra were being performed in 67 BC in Cilicia.Sculptures of the roman version of Mithras slaying a bull were being produced by Greek sculptors in Pergamum in the 2nd century BC.Both this dates precede not only christianity but even the birth of Christ.

"It is tempting to identify the Roman Mithras with the Persian Mithra, except that there is no known Persian legend or text about Mithra killing a bull or being associated with other animals. On the other hand, there is a story of Ahriman, the evil god in popular developments of Zoroastrianism, killing a bull. It is also hard to explain how the Sun-god Mithra would come to be worshipped in the windowless, cave-like mithraeum.

A possible link between Persia and Rome, which could be the stage for these changes, may be the kingdoms of Parthia and Pontus in Asia Minor. Several of their kings were called Mithradates, meaning "given by Mithra", starting with Mithradates I of Parthia (died 138 BC). It would seem that, in those kingdoms, Mithra was a god whose power lent luster even to a king. And it was at Pergamum, in the 2nd century BC, that Greek sculptors started to produce bas-relief imagery of Mithra Taurocthonos, "Mithra the bull-slayer." Although the cult of Mithras never caught on in the Greek homeland, those sculptures may indicate the route between Persian Mithra and Roman Mithras.

Around the first century AD, the Greek historian Plutarch wrote about pirates of Cilicia who practiced the Mithraic "secret rites" around 67 BC. Since Cilicia was the coastal province in the southeast of Anatolia, the Mithras mentioned by Plutarch may have been worship of the Persian god Mithra; or may have been associated with Ahriman, the Persian god who killed a bull."

Mithraism arrived at Rome fully matured in the 1st century bc, before Christ.

"Mithraism arrived fully mature at Rome with the return of the legions from the east in the first century BC. As an action god of armies and the champion of heroes, he appealed to the professional Roman soldiers, who carried his cult to Iberia, Britain, the German frontiers and Dacia.

The cult of Mithras began to attract attention at Rome about the end of the first century AD, perhaps in connection with the conquest of then-Zoroastrian Armenia. The earliest material evidence for the Roman worship of Mithras dates from that period, in a record of Roman soldiers who came from the military garrison at Carnuntum in the Roman province of Upper Pannonia (near the Danube River in modern Austria, near the Hungarian border). These soldiers fought against the Parthians and were involved in the suppression of the revolts in Jerusalem from 60 A.D. to about 70 A.D. When they returned home, they made Mithraic dedications, probably in the year 71 or 72.

Statius mentions the typical Mithraic relief in his Thebaid (Book i. 719,720), around A. D. 80; Plutarch's Life of Pompey also makes it clear that the worship of Mithras was well known at that time."

http://www.crystalinks.com/mithraism.html

The question of the origin of Mithraism has intrigued scholars for many years. Franz Cumont, one of the greatest students of Mithraism, theorized that the roots of the Roman6mystery religion were in ancient Iran. He identified the ancient Aryan deity who appears in Persian literature as Mithra with the Hindu god Mitra of the Vedic hymns. Mithra/Mitra was a solar deity. With the coming of Zoroastrianism to Persia in the

Exactly how do you expect your somewhat dubious internet 'source' to convince anyone when it is filled with assumptions, inconsistencies and speculation and what little detail there is corresponds exactly to what I said in the first place? Nobody denies that worshippers of Mithras existed prior to Christ but almost everything we know about Mithraism dates from 1st to the 4th centuries AD. Just because someone refers to Mithras prior to Christ, particularly in the east, does not mean that they are referring to the same faith as we see in the post-Christian centuries and even if they are there is no way to discern whether any similarities (superficial as they undoubtedly are) are down to Christianity borrowing from Mithraism, Mithraism borrowing from Christianity, or (more likely given the fact that the two really aren't anywhere near as similar as the tales you seem to have swallowed would imply) they are simple coincidences.

James
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« Reply #71 on: October 16, 2012, 03:37:18 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Why do you call yourself Orthodox?

Besides, mithraism came later than christianity, so if anything mithraism copied christianity.

That is true by the way.  One of the problems with Protestantism is in order to connect symbolically their own persecutions under Reformation these folks exaggerated the degree of persecution during the time of the Martyrs.  Its not to diminish their sacrifice, but the actual history of Christian persecution during the Roman era is scattered and isolated to specific times, situations, and regions.  During those first 300 years we had open and public churches, were sometimes quite visible in our communities, and were only forced underground during very specific and limited times.  These times were indeed as horrific as the Synaxarium suggests, and I would never diminish their sacrifice or the suffering we endured, but we shouldn't infer from the Martyrs that every single day of Christianity before Constantine was a life and death struggle to survive.  We had affluent communities, we had public places of worship, we were visible.  How else could we have survived as an institutional Church for three centuries?

That being said, yes, it is a fact that Mithraism may have indeed borrowed from Christianity, because this cult was most popular in the mid-third century.  True, it was just after the Diocletian persecutions, we the Church bounced back from that, just like Saint Athanasius came back from his several exiles by God's enduring Grace.

stay blessed,
habte selassie

"Mithraism" was a mysterious religion.. A secret religion.. that is why people don`t know too much about it.You have Justin the Martyr writing about the Mithraic mysteries, about their eucharist, baptism , etc.. You have other ancient historians writing about this religion and its general practice in the Roman Empire from the 1st century.You might also wanna check this 10 religious heroes that have more than a little in common with Jesus : http://listverse.com/2009/04/13/10-christ-like-figures-who-pre-date-jesus/
 http://www.beliefnet.com/Faiths/2000/02/Jesus-And-Buddha-The-Parallel-Sayings.aspx
 http://www.heartforpeace.net/quotes_of_the_day.php
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« Reply #72 on: October 16, 2012, 04:56:19 PM »

Quote
They're nowhere near as similar (in fact only extremely superficially do they have any similarity at all) as you seem to believe. To take your two examples, Hercules is a demi-god (so half and half) born of Zeus having a physical relationship with his mother Alcmene. This is nothing like the Incarnation. Similarly, despite the claims to the contrary that are often heard Mithra wasn't born of a virgin, or even born at all really, but was pulled fully formed from a rock. And as for any alleged similarities between Mithraism and Christianity, even if they were to exist you couldn't argue that the pre-date Christianity. Almost everything we know about the Mithraic cult in the Empire is contemporary with the early Church (about 1st -4th century) and bears little resemblance to the pre-Christian Iranian belief in Mithra from which it supposedly derives.

James

Thanks for that information : ) I have not really cross referenced Christianity and pagan beliefs thoroughly but will.

I have a question why didn't God during the Old Testament reveal himself completely to the Jews ? But I do believe the Prophets knew who God was "Triune" in nature yet did not mention his Complete Essence I,e. Father, Son, Holy Spirit. Why is that the case he was not completely revealed like he was in the New Testament ?.



Exactly. The revelation of the Trinity came at Epiphany/Theophany with the Baptism of Christ.

That said, all creation and even the sayings of the holy prophets confirm this, by divine providence. The Jews had more information than the Gentiles, but the Gentiles had some knowledge of God from Adam and his descendants and from nature and their consciences, not to mention the angels protecting the nations.
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« Reply #73 on: October 16, 2012, 04:58:42 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!



"Mithraism" was a mysterious religion.. A secret religion.. that is why people don`t know too much about it.You have Justin the Martyr writing about the Mithraic mysteries, about their eucharist, baptism , etc.. You have other ancient historians writing about this religion and its general practice in the Roman Empire from the 1st century.


There is a world of difference between being a Mystery cult and being a secret, in this regard Mithraism was rather an open secret religion Wink  

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Ahem




I'm with Joseph Campbell on this one, and he was a devout and active Catholic.

I think we observe religious, cultural, and theological similarities between "pagans", Christians, Jews, and yes, even Muslims too, not because of literal borrowing from each other (though sometimes this is the case), but because these cultural manifestations stem from the same primal human subconscious archetypes like Carl Jung talks about.  Our subconscious mind shares the same collective imagery and symbolism, so we tend to apply the same intuitive understandings to the same things.  Its like what the Apostle Paul said about those who seem to follow the Law even in pagan practices.

Quote
for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves,  who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them
Romans 2

We share the same collective mind and human experience, so naturally we come to the same kinds of worship, the same use of religious symbolism, and the same kinds of cultural practices and taboos, stemming from a common source.


stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #74 on: October 16, 2012, 07:56:22 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!



"Mithraism" was a mysterious religion.. A secret religion.. that is why people don`t know too much about it.You have Justin the Martyr writing about the Mithraic mysteries, about their eucharist, baptism , etc.. You have other ancient historians writing about this religion and its general practice in the Roman Empire from the 1st century.


There is a world of difference between being a Mystery cult and being a secret, in this regard Mithraism was rather an open secret religion Wink  

Quote
Ahem




I'm with Joseph Campbell on this one, and he was a devout and active Catholic.

I think we observe religious, cultural, and theological similarities between "pagans", Christians, Jews, and yes, even Muslims too, not because of literal borrowing from each other (though sometimes this is the case), but because these cultural manifestations stem from the same primal human subconscious archetypes like Carl Jung talks about.  Our subconscious mind shares the same collective imagery and symbolism, so we tend to apply the same intuitive understandings to the same things.  Its like what the Apostle Paul said about those who seem to follow the Law even in pagan practices.

Quote
for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves,  who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them
Romans 2

We share the same collective mind and human experience, so naturally we come to the same kinds of worship, the same use of religious symbolism, and the same kinds of cultural practices and taboos, stemming from a common source.


stay blessed,
habte selassie

what are you "saying" ?
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« Reply #75 on: October 17, 2012, 04:57:48 AM »

Nothing predates God, which is where Christianity derives.  So, there...
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« Reply #76 on: October 17, 2012, 11:19:39 AM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!



what are you "saying" ?

I am saying that if there are ten literary or religious figures who are very similar to Jesus Christ, this is not necessarily to say that Christians borrowed from Mithris or Osiris or the Buddha, rather that all of these figures share the same Jungian universal archetypes and collective subconscious origin.  We are not copying from each other necessarily as much as building from the same subconscious mind, the same mutual human experience.  Even if we just go into these religious texts as a literary analysis we could come to these same conclusions, let alone theologically.

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #77 on: October 17, 2012, 01:18:13 PM »

I personally find Mothra-ism fascinating.

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« Reply #78 on: October 17, 2012, 01:20:54 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

I personally find Mothra-ism fascinating.





Fixed that for ya Smiley

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #79 on: October 17, 2012, 01:32:29 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!



what are you "saying" ?

I am saying that if there are ten literary or religious figures who are very similar to Jesus Christ, this is not necessarily to say that Christians borrowed from Mithris or Osiris or the Buddha, rather that all of these figures share the same Jungian universal archetypes and collective subconscious origin.  We are not copying from each other necessarily as much as building from the same subconscious mind, the same mutual human experience.  Even if we just go into these religious texts as a literary analysis we could come to these same conclusions, let alone theologically.

stay blessed,
habte selassie

that is a weak argument.. and by that you are actually saying that Christ himself is a product of the finite(?) mind.
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« Reply #80 on: October 17, 2012, 07:08:33 PM »

Nothing predates God, which is where Christianity derives.  So, there...

Christianity was the religion of Adam.
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« Reply #81 on: October 17, 2012, 10:16:27 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!





what are you "saying" ?

I am saying that if there are ten literary or religious figures who are very similar to Jesus Christ, this is not necessarily to say that Christians borrowed from Mithris or Osiris or the Buddha, rather that all of these figures share the same Jungian universal archetypes and collective subconscious origin.  We are not copying from each other necessarily as much as building from the same subconscious mind, the same mutual human experience.  Even if we just go into these religious texts as a literary analysis we could come to these same conclusions, let alone theologically.

stay blessed,
habte selassie

that is a weak argument.. and by that you are actually saying that Christ himself is a product of the finite(?) mind.

Its an argument all the same.. and no, I am not saying Christ is a product of the finite mind, I am saying that those other messianic figures are a construct and projection of humanity's internal psychological need for a Savior.  Why? Jesus Christ is that Savior, those others are psychological reflections of internal archetypes.  There are only two ways to cut this cake, either Jesus Christ is not real in the very specific ways which the Church has consistently taught across two-thousand years (!!) or He is just another messianic figure like the ten other folks your link discussed.  As I've argued on the myth-Jesus thread, there is no strictly historical Jesus.  He is either as the Church teaches, or He is nothing, period.  So if you're trying to convince me to suggest that the Church has across these two-thousand years been readily adapting Jesus Christ as a person and symbol to other cultural messiahs,you're reading too much Alexander Hislop   or what is worse, that Jesus Christ isn't real at all but rather just another mythological literary figure, well..

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #82 on: October 18, 2012, 12:12:25 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!





what are you "saying" ?

I am saying that if there are ten literary or religious figures who are very similar to Jesus Christ, this is not necessarily to say that Christians borrowed from Mithris or Osiris or the Buddha, rather that all of these figures share the same Jungian universal archetypes and collective subconscious origin.  We are not copying from each other necessarily as much as building from the same subconscious mind, the same mutual human experience.  Even if we just go into these religious texts as a literary analysis we could come to these same conclusions, let alone theologically.

stay blessed,
habte selassie

that is a weak argument.. and by that you are actually saying that Christ himself is a product of the finite(?) mind.

Its an argument all the same.. and no, I am not saying Christ is a product of the finite mind, I am saying that those other messianic figures are a construct and projection of humanity's internal psychological need for a Savior.  Why? Jesus Christ is that Savior, those others are psychological reflections of internal archetypes.  There are only two ways to cut this cake, either Jesus Christ is not real in the very specific ways which the Church has consistently taught across two-thousand years (!!) or He is just another messianic figure like the ten other folks your link discussed.  As I've argued on the myth-Jesus thread, there is no strictly historical Jesus.  He is either as the Church teaches, or He is nothing, period.  So if you're trying to convince me to suggest that the Church has across these two-thousand years been readily adapting Jesus Christ as a person and symbol to other cultural messiahs,you're reading too much Alexander Hislop   or what is worse, that Jesus Christ isn't real at all but rather just another mythological literary figure, well..

stay blessed,
habte selassie

there are some details that are almoust adliteram coppied in Christian mythology.Like Dyonisius(Bachus) changing wine into water at a wedding.Like Buddha going at the age of 12 to the Temple and astonishing everyone with his wisdom.Dyonisius riding in a triumphal procession on an ass, a sacred king killed and eaten in a eucharistical ritual.Heracles descending into Hades to rescue people.

My idea is that many things from the life of Jesus might be a copycat, and likeso many things from the bible might be just false or that there really is a reason why the infinite God chose to have Jesus a copy of the pagan gods.Or that Jesus is just the product of the finite mind as you said.. The human mind being limited and subscribing to certain archetypes.

For me, things are not either Jesus is who the EOC says it is or he didn`t exist at all.. The EO itself borrowed from the Oriental theology and still does at the limit of contradicting past ecumenical councils.. The eschatology with sin, salvation, heaven , hell , etc.. The Church itself as you might have realized does not focus that much on Christ and faith in Christ , but at itself as an entity, on saints, etc.. The Church itself borrowed a lot of things from paganism , like the veneration of saints, prayer to the saints,almsgiving for the death, belief in a "purgatorial hell" , similar mysteries with the pagan mysteries, the same cloth, etc..  I think the EOC might have believed among time that Christ itself was not real (even if that was not the opinion of all) that is why it concentrated among itself and tried to make its theology more suitable to the universal theology than to the narrowmindness of the bible and later the councils.The fathers themselves were confused on matters of doctrine, and many of them believed things that later were labeled as heresy.. The EOC itself might have the wrong perception on Christ and who Christ is and might not be what Christ ment or had in mind(if he existed).. So the ecuation is not "the Christ of the Church or no Christ" but rather more complex, perhaps more different.. The Church has no personal relationship with Christ, except "through the so called mysteries" ..
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« Reply #83 on: October 21, 2012, 06:21:03 PM »

Hi All,

Been reading some of the replies, If Paganism stole from Judaism and Christianity, where did the idea of the Son of God come from What makes Christianity's Son of God (Our Lord Jesus Christ) different from pagan sons of god's ie: Hercules son of god of zeus, Mithra born of a virgin women or rock ? Mithra was also a son of god.

How come Christianity is so closely related to some of the pagan worshiping methods of God ?, did the demons create this false application in influencing humans to create idols in the false form of a trinity god, sons of gods so they can distort the real TRUTH of God?. To Apply a false, confusing and misleading message to us human of who God really is ?.


They're nowhere near as similar (in fact only extremely superficially do they have any similarity at all) as you seem to believe. To take your two examples, Hercules is a demi-god (so half and half) born of Zeus having a physical relationship with his mother Alcmene. This is nothing like the Incarnation. Similarly, despite the claims to the contrary that are often heard Mithra wasn't born of a virgin, or even born at all really, but was pulled fully formed from a rock. And as for any alleged similarities between Mithraism and Christianity, even if they were to exist you couldn't argue that the pre-date Christianity. Almost everything we know about the Mithraic cult in the Empire is contemporary with the early Church (about 1st -4th century) and bears little resemblance to the pre-Christian Iranian belief in Mithra from which it supposedly derives.

James

take that! http://listverse.com/2009/04/13/10-christ-like-figures-who-pre-date-jesus/
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« Reply #84 on: October 23, 2012, 11:12:27 PM »

http://youtu.be/QmhpfWexeWw

I've come across this video, Thought Id share it, it's a Jewish guy saying the Jesus or Iesous in Greek is from pagan origin from Zeus?.

I don't agree with this cause the book of Joshua translates Joshua's name into Iesous
Joshua 1:1 Και μετα την τελευτην του Μωυσεως του δουλου του Κυριου, ειπε Κυριος προς Ιησουν τον υιον του Ναυη, τον υπηρετην του Μωυσεως, λεγων,

What do you all think of his reasoning on this ?.
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« Reply #85 on: October 23, 2012, 11:16:30 PM »

http://youtu.be/QmhpfWexeWw

I've come across this video, Thought Id share it, it's a Jewish guy saying the Jesus or Iesous in Greek is from pagan origin from Zeus?.

I don't agree with this cause the book of Joshua translates Joshua's name into Iesous
Joshua 1:1 Και μετα την τελευτην του Μωυσεως του δουλου του Κυριου, ειπε Κυριος προς Ιησουν τον υιον του Ναυη, τον υπηρετην του Μωυσεως, λεγων,

What do you all think of his reasoning on this ?.


There is none involved. He would have a better use of his time cleaning his apartment. In that there is no indication that he has used either reason or the process of thinking.......reasoning would not be applicable.

rea·son·ing  (rz-nng)
n.
1. Use of reason, especially to form conclusions, inferences, or judgments.
2. Evidence or arguments used in thinking or argumentation.
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« Reply #86 on: October 24, 2012, 04:37:11 AM »

Hi All,

Been reading some of the replies, If Paganism stole from Judaism and Christianity, where did the idea of the Son of God come from What makes Christianity's Son of God (Our Lord Jesus Christ) different from pagan sons of god's ie: Hercules son of god of zeus, Mithra born of a virgin women or rock ? Mithra was also a son of god.

How come Christianity is so closely related to some of the pagan worshiping methods of God ?, did the demons create this false application in influencing humans to create idols in the false form of a trinity god, sons of gods so they can distort the real TRUTH of God?. To Apply a false, confusing and misleading message to us human of who God really is ?.


They're nowhere near as similar (in fact only extremely superficially do they have any similarity at all) as you seem to believe. To take your two examples, Hercules is a demi-god (so half and half) born of Zeus having a physical relationship with his mother Alcmene. This is nothing like the Incarnation. Similarly, despite the claims to the contrary that are often heard Mithra wasn't born of a virgin, or even born at all really, but was pulled fully formed from a rock. And as for any alleged similarities between Mithraism and Christianity, even if they were to exist you couldn't argue that the pre-date Christianity. Almost everything we know about the Mithraic cult in the Empire is contemporary with the early Church (about 1st -4th century) and bears little resemblance to the pre-Christian Iranian belief in Mithra from which it supposedly derives.

James

take that! http://listverse.com/2009/04/13/10-christ-like-figures-who-pre-date-jesus/

Did you even bother to read the page at that link before you posted it? The definition of 'Christ-like' appears to be so loose as to be meaningless, it doesn't even include Mithras, which is the figure we were disagreeing about, and it's hardly a scholarly reference. It's from someone who apparently saw an interesting documentary recently. Might I suggest you try again with some source more reputable and a great deal less superficial.

James
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« Reply #87 on: October 24, 2012, 01:42:36 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Or that Jesus is just the product of the finite mind as you said.. The human mind being limited and subscribing to certain archetypes.

For me, things are not either Jesus is who the EOC says it is or he didn`t exist at all.. The EO itself borrowed from the Oriental theology and still does at the limit of contradicting past ecumenical councils.. The eschatology with sin, salvation, heaven , hell , etc.. The Church itself as you might have realized does not focus that much on Christ and faith in Christ , but at itself as an entity, on saints, etc..

(a) I NEVER SAID CHRIST WAS A PRODUCT OF THE FINITE MIND, you did.  Perhaps people's, yourself including, misconceptions, projections, and imaginations about Jesus Christ are finite and created, but not Jesus Christ Himself, and not the Gospel accounts of His Incarnation.

(b) Again, you're reading to0 much Alexander Hislop
Wink


There is no historical Jesus for us to debate, He either exists as the Church teaches or He never existed at all, but to debate to the contrary is self-defeating and silly at best.

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #88 on: October 25, 2012, 06:08:46 AM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Or that Jesus is just the product of the finite mind as you said.. The human mind being limited and subscribing to certain archetypes.

For me, things are not either Jesus is who the EOC says it is or he didn`t exist at all.. The EO itself borrowed from the Oriental theology and still does at the limit of contradicting past ecumenical councils.. The eschatology with sin, salvation, heaven , hell , etc.. The Church itself as you might have realized does not focus that much on Christ and faith in Christ , but at itself as an entity, on saints, etc..

(a) I NEVER SAID CHRIST WAS A PRODUCT OF THE FINITE MIND, you did.  Perhaps people's, yourself including, misconceptions, projections, and imaginations about Jesus Christ are finite and created, but not Jesus Christ Himself, and not the Gospel accounts of His Incarnation.

You indirectly and unwillingly did.You said that all the details of those gods,teachers,etc that appear also in Jesus were a product of the stereotypical mind. If they do than also the details of Jesus life that are exactly the same are also of the nature of the stereotypical mind.I think you also said that the human mind is finite and limit and it is due to this limitless that this stereotypes exist.. If so the nature of Jesus' similar details are also of this finite and limited mind.
Quote

(b) Again, you're reading to0 much Alexander Hislop
Wink

I haven`t read anything of Alexander Hislop.This is my own thinking.

Quote
There is no historical Jesus for us to debate, He either exists as the Church teaches or He never existed at all, but to debate to the contrary is self-defeating and silly at best.

stay blessed,
habte selassie

No.Jesus either exists as the Bible teaches and portraits Him or He doesn`t exist at all.There is no solid proof of a connection between the changing "catholic" Church and the biblical characters.
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