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Author Topic: use musical instrument during the worship?  (Read 4083 times) Average Rating: 0
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dzheremi
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« Reply #45 on: October 08, 2012, 12:30:54 PM »

We do have Liturgical instruments, but I'm not sure if they are ever used during the Liturgy proper the way the Copts use the symbols.

I didn't mean to (and don't think I did) imply that you do. All I wrote is that you use the instruments for essentially the same purpose as we use ours (this is what the Ethiopian lady who used to attend St. Pishoy COC told me when I asked her about it), not that you use them at the same time.
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« Reply #46 on: October 08, 2012, 12:35:42 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

We do have Liturgical instruments, but I'm not sure if they are ever used during the Liturgy proper the way the Copts use the symbols.

I didn't mean to (and don't think I did) imply that you do. All I wrote is that you use the instruments for essentially the same purpose as we use ours (this is what the Ethiopian lady who used to attend St. Pishoy COC told me when I asked her about it), not that you use them at the same time.
Yes indeed they are, but as Hiwot already pointed out, we don't use them for the Qidase (the Divine Liturgy) rather we use them in lower-case liturgies, whereas the Copts do use their instruments in the Liturgy proper correct?

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #47 on: October 08, 2012, 12:49:28 PM »

Yes.
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HabteSelassie
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« Reply #48 on: October 08, 2012, 01:03:39 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Yes.

That is all I was trying to clarify as to the difference in use and purpose.  The purpose of Coptic instruments is to enhance the actual Divine Liturgy, in our Ethiopian services we reserve these instruments for other liturgical services but not the Divine Liturgy.  The whole reason we have a complicated Liturgical musical notation system is to preserve the sanctity and continuity of our sung Divine Liturgy proper through the tones and chants of Saint Yared. 

Don't Byzantines also have their own instruments for hymns or is it all vocal there?

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #49 on: October 08, 2012, 01:13:31 PM »

I wouldn't say that the purpose of the cymbals or the triangle is to enhance the liturgy (unless you think marking the rhythm of a particular hymn enhances the liturgy as a whole, somehow), though I guess others might. Honestly, at least in my own parish, we hardly use either. I don't think we've ever used the triangle (come to think of it, I don't think I've even seen one at our liturgy), and the cymbal is very sparingly used. I'm not sure what the rules are for when to use it vs. when not to use it. The last time I remember it being used is when father seemed to get frustrated with the deacons for losing the rhythm during the Hiteniyat (it sticks out in my mind because that's definitely not usual for us; everybody knows this hymn, because it's a very easy format, but I guess sometimes the melody changes and people get caught off guard).

The Byzantines are all vocal. Very occasionally you might find an organ in a Greek church, but I think such are in the minority these days (that was more popular back in the 1960s, if my record collection is anything to go by).
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Orthodox11
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« Reply #50 on: October 09, 2012, 04:54:04 AM »

Don't Byzantines also have their own instruments for hymns or is it all vocal there?

All vocal. You can find hymns sung with accompaniment on CDs or during concerts, but never in a worship context.

Some churches in America have organs, but like dzheremi says, they're thankfully on the way out.
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« Reply #51 on: October 09, 2012, 09:21:17 PM »

What about clapping and the hand movements?  Are those also used during Qidase?
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« Reply #52 on: October 09, 2012, 09:42:51 PM »

The Byzantines are all vocal. Very occasionally you might find an organ in a Greek church, but I think such are in the minority these days (that was more popular back in the 1960s, if my record collection is anything to go by).

Same with Antiochians. And the reason is not so much because people like organs or think traditional church music is lacking, rather because new immigrants wanted to fit in with Americans. Americans have organs in their churches, so we should too. The pressure to conform was much higher in the past than it is today. (This also explains the presence of pews, clergy collars and suits, and lack of beards.)

And yes, it's all gradually on the way out. Thankfully.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2012, 09:44:13 PM by age234 » Logged
NicholasMyra
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« Reply #53 on: October 09, 2012, 09:52:22 PM »

What about clapping and the hand movements?
There is percussion of sticks and things in certain Holy Week ceremonies iirc.
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« Reply #54 on: January 13, 2013, 05:05:42 AM »

Because it's a silly Protestant innovation you sillyl goose you  Grin
You mean the Christians  have already worshipped God together In Church by liturgy since 1st century?

Since protestant abolished the liturgy worship, they innovate  a new worship method in church,e.g sing songs with musical instruments?
« Last Edit: January 13, 2013, 05:06:00 AM by walter1234 » Logged
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« Reply #55 on: January 13, 2013, 08:33:23 AM »

In the Coptic Orthodox Church, we will occasionally use the cymbal and/or the triangle in order to mark the rhythm of the chant, as Coptic chant is very precisely rhythmically structured for all its famous melisma. The Ethiopians use the sistrum, the prayer staff, and the drum similarly. As the guide explains, these are not really "instruments" proper (in the sense of being used for musical performance), but have deep spiritual significance in themselves, and as such are seen as an integral part of the worship in themselves.

This is, I suppose, one difference between the Oriental Orthodox and the Eastern Orthodox, but it is important anyway to disentangle it a bit, because Westerners will often look to Oriental use of non-vocal accompaniment as "proof" that this diversity somehow sanctions the use of guitars, organs, or other melody-producing instruments in worship, when that is not quite the case. Of course, things are not as simple as binary opposition between those who would use instruments and those who would not, as we also have among us the Armenians who have adopted the organ in their liturgies (and the Greeks, if they are honest with themselves, have gone through periodic romances with the organ as well, though I'm glad to see that it seems to be dying out nowadays). Without judging the faith of the Armenians on that account, I do notice that places where Armenian tradition is taught stick to strictly vocal music. The same can be said about the Indian Syrians, who have otherwise sometimes adopted instruments into their liturgy, for reasons I can't begin to understand or articulate.

So I think it is fair to say, whether talking about the Byzantines or the non-Byzantines, that the standard for Orthodox worship is unaccompanied chant, essentially for the reason previously stated by Biro.

The Armenians and the Syriac Orthodox too use cymbals during Liturgy, not only the Copts. Their cymbals are the flabella with small bells around them which ring when at certain points of the Liturgy the flabella are waved.

You can see that, for example, here (Armenian Church):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kRWSSqzkn20&list=UUiuTwlGGrn_FiufgdHDSI_g&index=13

and here (at 15 min or so) (Syriac Church):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ZNJWN5LWE4&playnext=1&list=PLF02983BEC7FBB6F8&feature=results_main

Here is a picture of such flabellum used as a cymbal:


Also, there's an opinion (whether it's correct or not I can't say), that St Ephraim the Syrian used a lyre, or the nuns whom he taught his hymns used lyres while singing.

« Last Edit: January 13, 2013, 08:37:14 AM by vasnTearn » Logged
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« Reply #56 on: January 15, 2013, 12:14:05 AM »

Bells are musical instruments and when done correctly - should be used.

Many smaller churches don't have them.

Russians and Serbians love them and bless them as if they are people.

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« Reply #57 on: January 15, 2013, 03:57:24 PM »

In the Coptic Orthodox Church, we will occasionally use the cymbal and/or the triangle in order to mark the rhythm of the chant, as Coptic chant is very precisely rhythmically structured for all its famous melisma. The Ethiopians use the sistrum, the prayer staff, and the drum similarly. As the guide explains, these are not really "instruments" proper (in the sense of being used for musical performance), but have deep spiritual significance in themselves, and as such are seen as an integral part of the worship in themselves.

This is, I suppose, one difference between the Oriental Orthodox and the Eastern Orthodox, but it is important anyway to disentangle it a bit, because Westerners will often look to Oriental use of non-vocal accompaniment as "proof" that this diversity somehow sanctions the use of guitars, organs, or other melody-producing instruments in worship, when that is not quite the case. Of course, things are not as simple as binary opposition between those who would use instruments and those who would not, as we also have among us the Armenians who have adopted the organ in their liturgies (and the Greeks, if they are honest with themselves, have gone through periodic romances with the organ as well, though I'm glad to see that it seems to be dying out nowadays). Without judging the faith of the Armenians on that account, I do notice that places where Armenian tradition is taught stick to strictly vocal music. The same can be said about the Indian Syrians, who have otherwise sometimes adopted instruments into their liturgy, for reasons I can't begin to understand or articulate.

So I think it is fair to say, whether talking about the Byzantines or the non-Byzantines, that the standard for Orthodox worship is unaccompanied chant, essentially for the reason previously stated by Biro.

The Armenians and the Syriac Orthodox too use cymbals during Liturgy, not only the Copts. Their cymbals are the flabella with small bells around them which ring when at certain points of the Liturgy the flabella are waved.

You can see that, for example, here (Armenian Church):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kRWSSqzkn20&list=UUiuTwlGGrn_FiufgdHDSI_g&index=13

and here (at 15 min or so) (Syriac Church):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ZNJWN5LWE4&playnext=1&list=PLF02983BEC7FBB6F8&feature=results_main

Here is a picture of such flabellum used as a cymbal:


Also, there's an opinion (whether it's correct or not I can't say), that St Ephraim the Syrian used a lyre, or the nuns whom he taught his hymns used lyres while singing.



From what I understand, I'm not sure if the picture you provide is used "musically" the same way Copts use the cymbals though.  I think they're used to bring attention to the Holy Mysteries in the altar, if I'm not mistaken.
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« Reply #58 on: January 15, 2013, 04:19:33 PM »


From what I understand, I'm not sure if the picture you provide is used "musically" the same way Copts use the cymbals though.  I think they're used to bring attention to the Holy Mysteries in the altar, if I'm not mistaken.


Maybe what you say is true in the Syriac Church. I can't say, our Syriac members will know that better.

As for the Armenian Church, did you watch the first video? It will answer you better. Those flabella are used with songs and I have never read or heard they are used to bring attention to anything. The flabella were once, in very old times, used for driving flies away but now, at least in the Armenian Church where they are made with small bells, they're used with certain hymns to make the atmosphere in the church somewhat more joyous or solemn. The hymn sung in the first video I provided is very joyous and starts at the Holy Kiss when all believers hug and kiss each other.

In the website from where I took the photo of the above flabellum it is written:
Quote
Kshots (Fan or Flabellum) is a disc of silver, about eight or nine inches in diameter, with the figure of a six-winged cherub made on each side of it in relief and with little ball-shaped bells, often twelve in number, attached all round the rim of the disc. The fans were usually used to drive flies or other insects away from the cup. They also symbolized cherubs driving evil spirits away from the sacred place. It is now used decoratively, as a musical instrument and with the like symbolism.

http://armenianchurchsydney.org.au/learning/church-vessels/



« Last Edit: January 15, 2013, 04:20:52 PM by vasnTearn » Logged
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« Reply #59 on: January 15, 2013, 05:33:46 PM »


From what I understand, I'm not sure if the picture you provide is used "musically" the same way Copts use the cymbals though.  I think they're used to bring attention to the Holy Mysteries in the altar, if I'm not mistaken.


Maybe what you say is true in the Syriac Church. I can't say, our Syriac members will know that better.

As for the Armenian Church, did you watch the first video? It will answer you better. Those flabella are used with songs and I have never read or heard they are used to bring attention to anything. The flabella were once, in very old times, used for driving flies away but now, at least in the Armenian Church where they are made with small bells, they're used with certain hymns to make the atmosphere in the church somewhat more joyous or solemn. The hymn sung in the first video I provided is very joyous and starts at the Holy Kiss when all believers hug and kiss each other.

In the website from where I took the photo of the above flabellum it is written:
Quote
Kshots (Fan or Flabellum) is a disc of silver, about eight or nine inches in diameter, with the figure of a six-winged cherub made on each side of it in relief and with little ball-shaped bells, often twelve in number, attached all round the rim of the disc. The fans were usually used to drive flies or other insects away from the cup. They also symbolized cherubs driving evil spirits away from the sacred place. It is now used decoratively, as a musical instrument and with the like symbolism.

http://armenianchurchsydney.org.au/learning/church-vessels/





Hmmm....it actually reminds me of the way the Syriacs used it.  So every time a hymn is chanted, they're used?  Or when are they used exactly?
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« Reply #60 on: January 15, 2013, 06:31:42 PM »


From what I understand, I'm not sure if the picture you provide is used "musically" the same way Copts use the cymbals though.  I think they're used to bring attention to the Holy Mysteries in the altar, if I'm not mistaken.


Maybe what you say is true in the Syriac Church. I can't say, our Syriac members will know that better.

As for the Armenian Church, did you watch the first video? It will answer you better. Those flabella are used with songs and I have never read or heard they are used to bring attention to anything. The flabella were once, in very old times, used for driving flies away but now, at least in the Armenian Church where they are made with small bells, they're used with certain hymns to make the atmosphere in the church somewhat more joyous or solemn. The hymn sung in the first video I provided is very joyous and starts at the Holy Kiss when all believers hug and kiss each other.

In the website from where I took the photo of the above flabellum it is written:
Quote
Kshots (Fan or Flabellum) is a disc of silver, about eight or nine inches in diameter, with the figure of a six-winged cherub made on each side of it in relief and with little ball-shaped bells, often twelve in number, attached all round the rim of the disc. The fans were usually used to drive flies or other insects away from the cup. They also symbolized cherubs driving evil spirits away from the sacred place. It is now used decoratively, as a musical instrument and with the like symbolism.

http://armenianchurchsydney.org.au/learning/church-vessels/





Hmmm....it actually reminds me of the way the Syriacs used it.  So every time a hymn is chanted, they're used?  Or when are they used exactly?

Not every time. But at which hymns I don't remember now. The deacons and readers who serve on the altar during the Liturgy know such things well.
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« Reply #61 on: January 15, 2013, 06:58:04 PM »

Coptic cymbals, flabellum in Syriac and Armenian traditions - all this stuff suits to some hymns.

But I'm against organs in Orthodox churches, as I've written in another thread connected with the topic.
Why? Listen to it: <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=697b8sFG2XU" >Christos Anesti - St. George Cathedral Choir[/url]. It sounds nice, but too much Western, not so Orthodox, not so deep as it would be with traditional ison which in some way replaces Western organs. It does not transmit the content so fully as it would be done a cappella. But that's not so bad, I think organs are worse during ektenies (litanies), because I don't see any reason to use them in such moments.
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« Reply #62 on: January 15, 2013, 07:03:34 PM »


From what I understand, I'm not sure if the picture you provide is used "musically" the same way Copts use the cymbals though.  I think they're used to bring attention to the Holy Mysteries in the altar, if I'm not mistaken.


Maybe what you say is true in the Syriac Church. I can't say, our Syriac members will know that better.

As for the Armenian Church, did you watch the first video? It will answer you better. Those flabella are used with songs and I have never read or heard they are used to bring attention to anything. The flabella were once, in very old times, used for driving flies away but now, at least in the Armenian Church where they are made with small bells, they're used with certain hymns to make the atmosphere in the church somewhat more joyous or solemn. The hymn sung in the first video I provided is very joyous and starts at the Holy Kiss when all believers hug and kiss each other.

In the website from where I took the photo of the above flabellum it is written:
Quote
Kshots (Fan or Flabellum) is a disc of silver, about eight or nine inches in diameter, with the figure of a six-winged cherub made on each side of it in relief and with little ball-shaped bells, often twelve in number, attached all round the rim of the disc. The fans were usually used to drive flies or other insects away from the cup. They also symbolized cherubs driving evil spirits away from the sacred place. It is now used decoratively, as a musical instrument and with the like symbolism.

http://armenianchurchsydney.org.au/learning/church-vessels/





Hmmm....it actually reminds me of the way the Syriacs used it.  So every time a hymn is chanted, they're used?  Or when are they used exactly?

Not every time. But at which hymns I don't remember now. The deacons and readers who serve on the altar during the Liturgy know such things well.

I should clarify.  Of course not all hymns are chanted with cymbals, but all cymbal use is associated with congregational hymns.

The reason I ask about the flabellum is because I've seen the Syriac/Indian Church use it not just when the congregation chants, but primarily it seems to be used when the priest/bishops chants and does something with the Holy Mysteries.  Please someone correct me if I'm wrong on this regard.
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« Reply #63 on: January 20, 2013, 09:57:07 AM »

The reason I ask about the flabellum is because I've seen the Syriac/Indian Church use it not just when the congregation chants, but primarily it seems to be used when the priest/bishops chants and does something with the Holy Mysteries.  Please someone correct me if I'm wrong on this regard.

I think it's similar to the Russian practice of ringing bells at certain times during the Anaphora.
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