Wealthy Greek Orthodox church?

[walter1234]

http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/default.aspx?pageid=438&n=greek-crisis-may-change-taboo-on-church-wealth-2011-10-13As ordinary Greeks suffer from a massive austerity drive, the wealth of the Church is coming into the spotlight as some question its favored status. Still, nobody wants to talk about the issue, a Greek journalist says.
The riches of the Church of Greece could help Greeks shoulder the country’s mountain of debt, but any suggestion about redistributing the wealth has its controversies. With the Greek streets heating up, however, even the men of the cloth have started to question whether their favored status can last forever.
.
.
.
According to an estimate by daily Katimerini, the (Greek Orthodox) church’s assets amounted to 700 million euros in 2008, but Stefanos Manos, a politician who has held a number of Cabinet posts, estimated them at over 1 billion euros. However, these figures only take into account the portion of ecclesiastical assets that were directly managed by the central services of the church. Thus, property owned by parishes and the 80 Greek bishops, as well as the assets of 450 monasteries, was not included in the estimates.
http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/default.aspx?pageid=438&n=greek-crisis-may-change-taboo-on-church-wealth-2011-10-13

The wealthy New Calendarist Greek Orthodox Church is under pressure to do more to help the country while it struggles through a debilitating financial crisis.

As Greece faces a dire financial crisis and risks defaulting on its debt, many are calling on the Orthodox church to take less and give more.

The New Calendarist Greek Orthodox Church owns property worth some €700 billion – more than double the country’s national debt. And yet it is the struggling Greek state that pays the salaries and pensions of all the New Calendarist Orthodox clerics in the country.
http://www.omologitis.org/?p=1427&lang=en

The wealthy New Calendarist Greek Orthodox Church is under pressure to do more to help the country while it struggles through a debilitating financial crisis.

As Greece faces a dire financial crisis and risks defaulting on its debt, many are calling on the Orthodox church to take less and give more.

The New Calendarist Greek Orthodox Church owns property worth some €700 billion – more than double the country’s national debt. And yet it is the struggling Greek state that pays the salaries and pensions of all the New Calendarist Orthodox clerics in the country.
http://www.omologitis.org/?p=1427&lang=en  

paragraphs & explanations added to comply with forum rules on posting links. -Serb1389

Is this News truth?

Greece suffers from the economic crisis. Many Greek citizens has the hard life now.Why does wealthy Greek orthodox church not donate or spend more money to help the Greek citizens? Why do wealthy Greek Orthodox Church not show love and mercy to the citizens who have harsh life now?

[Cyrillic]

Without the help of the GOC many would have starved. The Church is the only one that really helps them.

[JamesRottnek]

http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/default.aspx?pageid=438&n=greek-crisis-may-change-taboo-on-church-wealth-2011-10-13
http://www.omologitis.org/?p=1427&lang=en
http://www.france24.com/en/20110627-wealthy-orthodox-church-spotlight-amid-greek-crisis

Is this News truth?

Greece suffers from the economic crisis. Many Greek citizens has the hard life now.Why does wealthy Greek orthodox church not donate or spend more money to help the Greek citizens? Why do wealthy Greek Orthodox Church not show love and mercy to the citizens who have harsh life now?

Keep in mind that much of the Church's property is in land and buildings and such; it isn't like they're keeping billions in bank accounts.

[Αριστοκλής]

And of course it's the role of the churches to bail out the results of bad governments policies.   

Before posting this stuff someone might vet the "news" and compare metropolia debt and budgets. And James Rottnek is correct as well.

Greek-Americans s do what we always have done...send what funds we can to family and friends over there.

[Nikolaostheservant]

they have been helping more then anyone else, and still are. I read they now are are also hurting.
BUT the church does not have enough wealth to feed everyone, its impossible.

[Nikolaostheservant]

Just read the articals and watched the video.

700 BILLION euros-----i did nt othink they are that rich!!!!!!!!!

they could pay off the entire greek debt, 365bill and still have $$ left over to party, for years to come.

buti have a question in the vidio link above @ 1:58 he says the state pays the salary of the monks priest and biships. Ok, but MONKS!

MONKS get paid?!

i thought monks give away their property and $$ before becoming a monk.

Can anyone explaing this, is it true or did the guy just mispeak??

[JamesRottnek]

Just read the articals and watched the video.

700 BILLION euros-----i did nt othink they are that rich!!!!!!!!!

they could pay off the entire greek debt, 365bill and still have $$ left over to party, for years to come.

buti have a question in the vidio link above @ 1:58 he says the state pays the salary of the monks priest and biships. Ok, but MONKS!

MONKS get paid?!

i thought monks give away their property and $$ before becoming a monk.

Can anyone explaing this, is it true or did the guy just mispeak??

Monks, generally if I recall correctly, give their property and money to the monastery they join when they are tonsured.  So long as they reside at a monastery, in the way that a normal monk does, that can support itself (either through some sort of industry or because of very generous benefactors), there is not really a reason for a monk to have any money that they might call their own, nor to draw a salary.  However, not all monasteries are capable of supporting themselves through industry or donations, and consequently some monks work in the world to draw a salary (for instance, the Abbot of the ROCOR monastery on Vashon Island, Washington, currently - or, at the very least I am almost certain, in the past - works(ed) as a teacher at a nearby school, drawing a salary to help support his monastery; some other monks do similar things).  It is quite reasonable to believe that if such a case arose in Greece, said monks might - if they are hieromonks - do regular in-the-world priestly work, for which they have every right to be paid.  As well, there are many monks who do not live at monasteries, and live in the world, generally employed as chaplains or parish priests or other such positions.  However, it is always possible that that is a reference to something I'm unaware of, or simply a misstatement on the part of the article-writer.

As to your general point, I'd again say that most (probably nearly all) of the wealth of the Greek Church is in land, buildings (such as parishes, diocesan offices, etc., and that the number may well include the value of monasteries of the Greek Church), icons, ecclesiastical items (chalices, etc.), and other such things.  It is not as though the Greek Church (unless things have gone very, very, very wrong in Greece) is hoarding gold bullion in mass quantities.

[Nikolaostheservant]

the way its worded i don't think he is referring to the monks working? he also mentioned pentions?

yes i understood that part that the 700eu is in none liquid assets, biz, land,bldg... and I'm sure they are inflating the amt in order to use sensationalism to get attention, at the very least they are using values in the past that are no longer pertinent with the economy today.

[Orthodox11]

And of course it's the role of the churches to bail out the results of bad governments policies.   

To bail out the government? Certainly not. To take care of the poor and need? Absolutely, and I think the Church of Greece has exceeded all expectation in this respect. Thousands are fed on a daily basis at Church soup-kitchens and whatnot, it's like something out of St. John Chrysostom's Antioch. To question the Church's wealth or its response to the crisis comes close to libel in my opinion.

[akimori makoto]

And of course it's the role of the churches to bail out the results of bad governments policies.   

To bail out the government? Certainly not. To take care of the poor and need? Absolutely, and I think the Church of Greece has exceeded all expectation in this respect. Thousands are fed on a daily basis at Church soup-kitchens and whatnot, it's like something out of St. John Chrysostom's Antioch. To question the Church's wealth or its response to the crisis comes close to libel in my opinion.

And the Greeks are still ungrateful. Surprise.

[Gamliel]

Wealthy Greek Orthodox Church?  Our Archdiocese in New York had to send a contribution to the wealthy Greek Orthodox Church.

[Orthodox11]

And the Greeks are still ungrateful. Surprise.

Never mind. Do good to those who hate you.

[Αριστοκλής]

And of course it's the role of the churches to bail out the results of bad governments policies.   

To bail out the government? Certainly not. To take care of the poor and need? Absolutely, and I think the Church of Greece has exceeded all expectation in this respect. Thousands are fed on a daily basis at Church soup-kitchens and whatnot, it's like something out of St. John Chrysostom's Antioch. To question the Church's wealth or its response to the crisis comes close to libel in my opinion.

I said the RESULTS. (This is worse than the politics forum)

But I do stand by my swipe at bailing out the government - that is not alleviating the pain of the people. Nothing wrong with helping the poor people though.

[Nikolaostheservant]

Wealthy Greek Orthodox Church?  Our Archdiocese in New York had to send a contribution to the wealthy Greek Orthodox Church.

Ha, how do you think they made that 700bil

[Nikolaostheservant]

Ok, what if the Church does pay for the gov bill (in full) and then throw out all the politicians and give the church the power to rule Greece?

[akimori makoto]

And the Greeks are still ungrateful. Surprise.

Never mind. Do good to those who hate you.

Indeed. It is a cross.

[Orthodox11]

I said the RESULTS. (This is worse than the politics forum)

I know you did. The result of failed government policies (and the whole single currency fiasco, for that matter) has been poverty. It is the Church's responsibility to care for those left poor and starving however they ended up in that position. Sending money to friends and relatives is simply doing good to those who do good to you, the response of the Church has to extend beyond that.

[JamesRottnek]

Ok, what if the Church does pay for the gov bill (in full) and then throw out all the politicians and give the church the power to rule Greece?

I seriously hope that's a joke.

[Kerdy]

http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/default.aspx?pageid=438&n=greek-crisis-may-change-taboo-on-church-wealth-2011-10-13
http://www.omologitis.org/?p=1427&lang=en
http://www.france24.com/en/20110627-wealthy-orthodox-church-spotlight-amid-greek-crisis

Is this News truth?

Greece suffers from the economic crisis. Many Greek citizens has the hard life now.Why does wealthy Greek orthodox church not donate or spend more money to help the Greek citizens? Why do wealthy Greek Orthodox Church not show love and mercy to the citizens who have harsh life now?

If the EU can't help Greece, what would make a person believe the Church has more money than they do?

[Αριστοκλής]

I said the RESULTS. (This is worse than the politics forum)

I know you did. The result of failed government policies (and the whole single currency fiasco, for that matter) has been poverty. It is the Church's responsibility to care for those left poor and starving however they ended up in that position. Sending money to friends and relatives is simply doing good to those who do good to you, the response of the Church has to extend beyond that.

Really? How so?

Do not assume I meant we only send funds to relatives and friends.

[walter1234]

http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/default.aspx?pageid=438&n=greek-crisis-may-change-taboo-on-church-wealth-2011-10-13As ordinary Greeks suffer from a massive austerity drive, the wealth of the Church is coming into the spotlight as some question its favored status. Still, nobody wants to talk about the issue, a Greek journalist says.
The riches of the Church of Greece could help Greeks shoulder the country’s mountain of debt, but any suggestion about redistributing the wealth has its controversies. With the Greek streets heating up, however, even the men of the cloth have started to question whether their favored status can last forever.
.
.
.
According to an estimate by daily Katimerini, the (Greek Orthodox) church’s assets amounted to 700 million euros in 2008, but Stefanos Manos, a politician who has held a number of Cabinet posts, estimated them at over 1 billion euros. However, these figures only take into account the portion of ecclesiastical assets that were directly managed by the central services of the church. Thus, property owned by parishes and the 80 Greek bishops, as well as the assets of 450 monasteries, was not included in the estimates.
http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/default.aspx?pageid=438&n=greek-crisis-may-change-taboo-on-church-wealth-2011-10-13

The wealthy New Calendarist Greek Orthodox Church is under pressure to do more to help the country while it struggles through a debilitating financial crisis.

As Greece faces a dire financial crisis and risks defaulting on its debt, many are calling on the Orthodox church to take less and give more.

The New Calendarist Greek Orthodox Church owns property worth some €700 billion – more than double the country’s national debt. And yet it is the struggling Greek state that pays the salaries and pensions of all the New Calendarist Orthodox clerics in the country.
http://www.omologitis.org/?p=1427&lang=en

The wealthy New Calendarist Greek Orthodox Church is under pressure to do more to help the country while it struggles through a debilitating financial crisis.

As Greece faces a dire financial crisis and risks defaulting on its debt, many are calling on the Orthodox church to take less and give more.

The New Calendarist Greek Orthodox Church owns property worth some €700 billion – more than double the country’s national debt. And yet it is the struggling Greek state that pays the salaries and pensions of all the New Calendarist Orthodox clerics in the country.
http://www.omologitis.org/?p=1427&lang=en  

paragraphs & explanations added to comply with forum rules on posting links. -Serb1389

Is this News truth?

Greece suffers from the economic crisis. Many Greek citizens has the hard life now.Why does wealthy Greek orthodox church not donate or spend more money to help the Greek citizens? Why do wealthy Greek Orthodox Church not show love and mercy to the citizens who have harsh life now?

So, all these news are lies?

[serb1389]

No they are not lies.  why do you ask?

[ialmisry]

Ok, what if the Church does pay for the gov bill (in full) and then throw out all the politicians and give the church the power to rule Greece?

I seriously hope that's a joke.

why?  Isn't this the same government who has jailed the abbot of that monastery which made a fortune by beating the financial wizards at their own game?

[michigander]

The first article posted puts the GOC's assets at 700 million euros. The other two articles (both from the same source) put its assets at 700 billion euros. Obviously those can't both be correct figures.

[walter1234]

No they are not lies.  why do you ask?

These news say that Greek Orthodox Church in Greece is very wealthy. And the Greek Orthodox Church even has the ability to repay the debts which Greek government owes.Is it a lie?

[orthonorm]

The first article posted puts the GOC's assets at 700 million euros. The other two articles (both from the same source) put its assets at 700 billion euros. Obviously those can't both be correct figures.

Welcome to the long and short scale and people who really confuse them.

That would be my guess.

[serb1389]

No they are not lies.  why do you ask?

These news say that Greek Orthodox Church in Greece is very wealthy. And the Greek Orthodox Church even has the ability to repay the debts which Greek government owes.Is it a lie?

1.  Lets say the church is wealthy.  Then they would have money to repay SOME debts...yes?

2.  Lets say the church is NOT rich.  They would STILL pay SOME of the debt because they are a national CHURCH & believe in charitable giving. 

That's the way I'm looking at this whole thing.

[Cyrillic]

No they are not lies.  why do you ask?

These news say that Greek Orthodox Church in Greece is very wealthy. And the Greek Orthodox Church even has the ability to repay the debts which Greek government owes.Is it a lie?

Even if the Church could pay the debts that some corrupt politicians made why should they? They could better use the money to feed the poor.

[serb1389]

No they are not lies.  why do you ask?

These news say that Greek Orthodox Church in Greece is very wealthy. And the Greek Orthodox Church even has the ability to repay the debts which Greek government owes.Is it a lie?

Even if the Church could pay the debts that some corrupt politicians made why should they? They could better use the money to feed the poor.

It's a symbiotic relationship.  They depend on each other.  Plus the church is very capable of supporting both the homeless & the country

[Αριστοκλής]

Silly arguments... do we even KNOW of what this alleged wealth is comprised...bags of gold, hordes of euros, land? Two articles are cited, one of a known slanted hacks and the other by schismatics.

[serb1389]

To me it's not even the point.  What is the big deal if the church helps out the gov't?!  They're people too.  Are we saying that people need to be saints or totally homeless In order to be helped by the church?

[Arachne]

To me it's not even the point.  What is the big deal if the church helps out the gov't?!  They're people too.  Are we saying that people need to be saints or totally homeless In order to be helped by the church?

Corrupt politicians have embezzled fortunes - money that should have gone into keeping the country functional. They can open up their Swiss accounts before they start panhandling.

[Velsigne]

Hi all,

This is my first post here. 

The newspaper articles remind me of what happened in Russia after the Bolshevik Revolution.  Prior to that, the government used to try to make the monasteries care for all the sick and poor, but they didn't have enough people, money, or food to care for so many people.

After the Greeks fought the German Nazis in what is considered by many to have been the greatest resistance in Europe, they had to turn around and fight a bloody civil war against the Communists.  Even some of the clergy were Communists. 

Now the Communists are back, and then we hear about "oh look at how rich the Church is".

And, btw, isn't Hurriyet an Israeli paper?  I seem to recall they've printed articles about the Greek Patriarch there, and that the Greek Orthodox Church actually owns the ground on which the Knesset and the Prime Minister's home rest. 

Always thought it ironic given the prophecy, "and the government will be on his shoulder".  Not sure what to make of that, but it is doubly ironic if an Israeli paper is agitating for the Greek Orthodox to sell of their property, some of which is in Israel.

Any comments?

[SolEX01]

Hi all,

This is my first post here.  

The newspaper articles remind me of what happened in Russia after the Bolshevik Revolution.  Prior to that, the government used to try to make the monasteries care for all the sick and poor, but they didn't have enough people, money, or food to care for so many people.

After the Greeks fought the German Nazis in what is considered by many to have been the greatest resistance in Europe, they had to turn around and fight a bloody civil war against the Communists.  Even some of the clergy were Communists.  

Now the Communists are back, and then we hear about "oh look at how rich the Church is".

And, btw, isn't Hurriyet an Israeli paper?  I seem to recall they've printed articles about the Greek Patriarch there, and that the Greek Orthodox Church actually owns the ground on which the Knesset and the Prime Minister's home rest.  

Always thought it ironic given the prophecy, "and the government will be on his shoulder".  Not sure what to make of that, but it is doubly ironic if an Israeli paper is agitating for the Greek Orthodox to sell of their property, some of which is in Israel.

Any comments?

Welcome to the forum.  

Haaretz is the Israeli newspaper http://www.haaretz.com/

Hurriyet is a Turkish newspaper.  Turkey and Israel have questionable relations at the moment.

http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/

[Velsigne]

Welcome to the forum.   

Hurriyet is a Turkish newspaper.  Turkey and Israel have questionable relations at the moment.

http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/


[/quote]


Oh yes, I should have taken a moment to look.  I'd forgotten.  Yes, they've had a falling out.  Wonder what Turkey's strategy is, while they are drilling alongside Cyprus. 

Thanks for the welcome.  Hope I did the quote part correctly.  Guess I'll find out as soon as I click the 'post' button.

[SolEX01]

Correction to your first quoting attempt:

Welcome to the forum.   

Hurriyet is a Turkish newspaper.  Turkey and Israel have questionable relations at the moment.

http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/

Oh yes, I should have taken a moment to look.  I'd forgotten.  Yes, they've had a falling out.  Wonder what Turkey's strategy is, while they are drilling alongside Cyprus.
Thanks for the welcome.  Hope I did the quote part correctly.  Guess I'll find out as soon as I click the 'post' button.

You'll have many chances to quote people here.  Before you know it , quoting will be like breathing.   

This is quoted text - just make sure the beginning and end braces are in place.

[Asteriktos]

Hope I did the quote part correctly.  Guess I'll find out as soon as I click the 'post' button.

Welcome to the forum    Fwiw you can preview your post before posting it (something I don't do nearly often enough!)

[Velsigne]

okay, I tried, but this may take some figuring.


I will keep practicing.

Thanks for the assistance Asteriktos and SOLEX01 !

[WPM]

It doesn't say x can't have y.

[WPM]

http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/default.aspx?pageid=438&n=greek-crisis-may-change-taboo-on-church-wealth-2011-10-13As ordinary Greeks suffer from a massive austerity drive, the wealth of the Church is coming into the spotlight as some question its favored status. Still, nobody wants to talk about the issue, a Greek journalist says.
The riches of the Church of Greece could help Greeks shoulder the country’s mountain of debt, but any suggestion about redistributing the wealth has its controversies. With the Greek streets heating up, however, even the men of the cloth have started to question whether their favored status can last forever.
.
.
.
According to an estimate by daily Katimerini, the (Greek Orthodox) church’s assets amounted to 700 million euros in 2008, but Stefanos Manos, a politician who has held a number of Cabinet posts, estimated them at over 1 billion euros. However, these figures only take into account the portion of ecclesiastical assets that were directly managed by the central services of the church. Thus, property owned by parishes and the 80 Greek bishops, as well as the assets of 450 monasteries, was not included in the estimates.
http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/default.aspx?pageid=438&n=greek-crisis-may-change-taboo-on-church-wealth-2011-10-13

The wealthy New Calendarist Greek Orthodox Church is under pressure to do more to help the country while it struggles through a debilitating financial crisis.

As Greece faces a dire financial crisis and risks defaulting on its debt, many are calling on the Orthodox church to take less and give more.

The New Calendarist Greek Orthodox Church owns property worth some €700 billion – more than double the country’s national debt. And yet it is the struggling Greek state that pays the salaries and pensions of all the New Calendarist Orthodox clerics in the country.
http://www.omologitis.org/?p=1427&lang=en

The wealthy New Calendarist Greek Orthodox Church is under pressure to do more to help the country while it struggles through a debilitating financial crisis.

As Greece faces a dire financial crisis and risks defaulting on its debt, many are calling on the Orthodox church to take less and give more.

The New Calendarist Greek Orthodox Church owns property worth some €700 billion – more than double the country’s national debt. And yet it is the struggling Greek state that pays the salaries and pensions of all the New Calendarist Orthodox clerics in the country.
http://www.omologitis.org/?p=1427&lang=en  

paragraphs & explanations added to comply with forum rules on posting links. -Serb1389

Is this News truth?

Greece suffers from the economic crisis. Many Greek citizens has the hard life now.Why does wealthy Greek orthodox church not donate or spend more money to help the Greek citizens? Why do wealthy Greek Orthodox Church not show love and mercy to the citizens who have harsh life now?

Generally, people have different ideas of what constitutes "wealth" ...

[biro]

You know, that's something to think about. In the U.S., where I live, a number of churches own hospitals. The Roman Catholics do, the Episcopalians do, the Methodists do, etc. (This is why you'll see places named "Methodist Hospital" or "St. Joseph" and so on.) There are also plenty of private hospitals, named after people or companies. Anyway, back to the point: I've thought a lot about whether it's ethical for a church to own big businesses. Sometimes I still scratch my head about it. At least a hospital is something that helps people. 

[Asteriktos]

Yeah, one of the best hospitals in this area is UPMC Presbyterian...

"UPMC Presbyterian had its beginnings in 1893, when it was founded by Louise Lyle, the wife of a Presbyterian minister."

See when I think about these things I wonder when the Orthodox in America will build something like that. Perhaps the numbers are still too small and there is too much administrative division for something like that, I dunno. Or maybe it's that things have changed so much and it'd be so expensive and competitive to do it now.

[serb1389]

You know, that's something to think about. In the U.S., where I live, a number of churches own hospitals. The Roman Catholics do, the Episcopalians do, the Methodists do, etc. (This is why you'll see places named "Methodist Hospital" or "St. Joseph" and so on.) There are also plenty of private hospitals, named after people or companies. Anyway, back to the point: I've thought a lot about whether it's ethical for a church to own big businesses. Sometimes I still scratch my head about it. At least a hospital is something that helps people. 

also you will see that those hospitals are Non-Profit organizations.  That is not the case with all hospitals. 

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