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Author Topic: Jesus defeat the sin and death through his death  (Read 1179 times) Average Rating: 0
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walter1234
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« on: October 06, 2012, 01:43:02 PM »

The orthodox christians believe Jesus has defeated the death through his death and resurrection. He has destroy the death and so every men will raise up from death in Last judgment. Thus, No one is subjected to death anymore. Am I right?

Orthodox christians believe Jesus also destroy the power of sin through his death and resurrection as well. As Jesus has destroyed the power of the sin , why do so many people still subject to sin, get addicted to sin? Why does sin still can hurt our life even Jesus has defeated it?

To what extent do Jesus defeat the sins for us?
« Last Edit: October 06, 2012, 01:53:37 PM by walter1234 » Logged
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« Reply #1 on: October 06, 2012, 01:52:18 PM »

Ever read St. Athanasius' "On the Incarnation"?
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walter1234
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« Reply #2 on: October 06, 2012, 01:54:28 PM »

No, I am a protestant Christian who is interested and studying Orthodoxy.
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« Reply #3 on: October 06, 2012, 01:55:34 PM »

No, I am a protestant Christian who is interested and studying Orthodoxy.

Why not read it. It answers a lot of your questions.
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« Reply #4 on: October 06, 2012, 02:00:52 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

The orthodox christians believe Jesus has defeated the death through his death and resurrection. He has destroy the death and so every men will raise up from death in Last judgment. Thus, No one is subjected to death anymore. Am I right?

Orthodox christians believe Jesus also destroy the power of sin through his death and resurrection as well. As Jesus has destroyed the power of the sin , why do so many people still subject to sin, get addicted to sin? Why does sin still can hurt us even Jesus has defeated it?

To what extent do Jesus defeat the sins for us?

The way in which Jesus Christ defeated Sin is by His own Divine power.  His Death and Resurrection were symbolic actions to visualize the underlying spiritual reality.  In our own lives, we must crucify our Passions and pray for to resurrected by Repentance.  His actions were symbolize and a template for us to follow and meditate on.  He didn't literally or ontologically destroy death and sin in one action for all time, rather He shifted the potentiality entirely from Sin more so towards Grace.  We can be reinvigorated towards Grace through Baptism, and we are then able by Grace to seek Repentance from Sin.  Sin continues to exist because of Free-Will, however we now have the gift of Repentance and Grace to heal us directly from its wounds, which led previously to death.  What was this death? It was a SPIRITUAL state being in separation from the Grace of God.  In this regard, even healthy and living folks were dead in their sins, let alone actual dead folks and duppies alike.  Today, the spiritual state of death is not what it was before.  We still die physically, but we are not divorced from Grace by this process, rather we are strengthened.

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #5 on: October 06, 2012, 02:15:59 PM »

Jesus defeat over death and sin are in terms of final victory, that is, since death is the fruit of sin, and death no longer has a definitive hold on us, so sin was also defeated by being prevented from having its final effect, our ultimate destruction.

People still die and still sin, but this no longer will lead us to the nothingness it would should God have not saved us.

This is the first and general aspect of salvation, which is the expression of God's infinite and unconditional love. *All* are saved by this.

There is the the third aspect of salvation, the one most people talk about and the one that is the expression of God's perfect justice, where those "condemned to immortality", as St. Justin Popovic said, will be separated according to the kind of being they chose to be. We all, who have been saved from the fruit of sin, will be exposed to God's revealing grace and this light will be experienced by those who love Him as bliss and by those who hate Him as pain. We *are* saved from sin and death. But not from our own choices. Last Judgment is, as the book's title "Revelation" of these choices, nothing more, nothing less. Ultimate salvation, then starts with the immortality that is freely given to all and is complete in our surrender to the love of God.

The second stage of salvation is the one most blurred in our times. It's a partial revelation of both mercy and justice and exists right here, right now. The second stage of salvation is the Community vivified by His Spirit, thus becoming the Body of Christ. Jesus picked the *apostolic* community, to make it His *one* and *holy* earthly body after the Resurrection, since His carnal body had already been glorified and no longer belonged to this "space-time". It is a new body, the first fruit of the New Creation and must wait this New Creation to be manifest again. While He waits, He sent to the One Holy Apostolic Community His Spirit, Who proceeds from the Father, and Who completes His teachings, gives testimony of Him and explains everything, not according to ex cathedra proclamations of bishops, not according to Scripture, but according to all, for the Spirit blows wherever He wants. The Community can be educated through clergy, lay people, monks, miracles, angels, enemies of the Community, natural phenomena, anything, for Truth is manifest in everything and sustains all. Because it is the very Spirit of God who preserves the Church (the community), despite many unworthy members, the correct faith, the correct glory (orthodoxy) has been preserved in Her.

The second stage of salvation, then, is participation in this Community. Like the first stage, that is expression of mercy, it is open to all. Like the third stage, that is expression of justice, it has defined physical limits. All who are in the Church are in the energy of salvation, although some will be expelled on the Last Judgment Day and some will be called in. In our times, there are some who are in but are like spoiled children wasting the gifts of the Father. If this is their final choices, they will eventually be isolated from the gifts that they did not want. Also, some are out who love those gifts so much they convince themselves they already have it.  If their love is truthful and loyal, they will eventually receive that which they longed for all their lives, even if after this life.
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walter1234
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« Reply #6 on: October 06, 2012, 02:21:08 PM »

Orthodoxy 's view on salvation is more sensible than protestant. We have to build a close relationship with God , love God and love the others, communion with Him.So , we can united with Christ as well as defeat the sin and death with Christ together.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2012, 02:25:18 PM by walter1234 » Logged
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« Reply #7 on: October 06, 2012, 02:21:15 PM »

Not, they were not symbolic. They are the very thing that acted salvation. By bringing our nature into His immortal Person, without mixture with His own Divine Nature thus preserving our own essence, and letting Himself die as a human being, He threw into death something far greater than it could "process" so to speak. He "burnt death's fuse" with an infinite amount of "energy". Also, like iron becomes magnetic by being united with a magnet, our nature was "immortalized" by being put "next" to His immortal natural. Most Godly energies *may* be manifest in each of us as long as we love enough. They will be fully manifest if we give up our very lives in love, for in trying to preserve what we are and what we have, we block what we could be and what we could have.

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

The orthodox christians believe Jesus has defeated the death through his death and resurrection. He has destroy the death and so every men will raise up from death in Last judgment. Thus, No one is subjected to death anymore. Am I right?

Orthodox christians believe Jesus also destroy the power of sin through his death and resurrection as well. As Jesus has destroyed the power of the sin , why do so many people still subject to sin, get addicted to sin? Why does sin still can hurt us even Jesus has defeated it?

To what extent do Jesus defeat the sins for us?

The way in which Jesus Christ defeated Sin is by His own Divine power.  His Death and Resurrection were symbolic actions to visualize the underlying spiritual reality.  In our own lives, we must crucify our Passions and pray for to resurrected by Repentance.  His actions were symbolize and a template for us to follow and meditate on.  He didn't literally or ontologically destroy death and sin in one action for all time, rather He shifted the potentiality entirely from Sin more so towards Grace.  We can be reinvigorated towards Grace through Baptism, and we are then able by Grace to seek Repentance from Sin.  Sin continues to exist because of Free-Will, however we now have the gift of Repentance and Grace to heal us directly from its wounds, which led previously to death.  What was this death? It was a SPIRITUAL state being in separation from the Grace of God.  In this regard, even healthy and living folks were dead in their sins, let alone actual dead folks and duppies alike.  Today, the spiritual state of death is not what it was before.  We still die physically, but we are not divorced from Grace by this process, rather we are strengthened.

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #8 on: October 06, 2012, 02:29:05 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Not, they were not symbolic. They are the very thing that acted salvation. By bringing our nature into His immortal Person, without mixture with His own Divine Nature thus preserving our own essence, and letting Himself die as a human being, He threw into death something far greater than it could "process" so to speak. He "burnt death's fuse" with an infinite amount of "energy". Also, like iron becomes magnetic by being united with a magnet, our nature was "immortalized" by being put "next" to His immortal natural. Most Godly energies *may* be manifest in each of us as long as we love enough. They will be fully manifest if we give up our very lives in love, for in trying to preserve what we are and what we have, we block what we could be and what we could have.


I didn't mean to imply that they weren't also literal, but His Death is indeed symbolic of our own Deaths in Baptism, even Protestants understand this through their readings of the same Scriptures we do Smiley

And yes, Grace is sent through His Death and Resurrection and when we crucify our sins through Repentance, but in part, my premise is that they never exclusively had or have to be, God is OMNIPOTENT, we can't limit what His power can and can't do.  We can only understand what has been revealed.  I like your analogy, I equally agree that through His Passion he exhausted our own passions, and did burn out sin.  However, He could have chosen to do this any number of ways, we just so happen to have been blessed with the mechanism He chose (the Cross).  Atonement suggests the opposite, that God's power was somehow limited and that Christ simply HAD to bear the Cross one way or the other, as if (a) God's power was limited and (b) He didn't have supreme free-will.


stay blessed,
habte selassie
« Last Edit: October 06, 2012, 02:29:49 PM by HabteSelassie » Logged

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walter1234
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« Reply #9 on: October 06, 2012, 02:57:41 PM »

God has already defeated the sin and death.

As a fellower of Jesus, we should build a close relationship with God,have communion with him, united with God through praying, fasting, worshiping, reading bible ,every day self-denial, love God and love others . So, we can united with God(Jesus) and defeat the sin and death with Him together ultimately.

Am I correct?
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« Reply #10 on: October 06, 2012, 03:09:25 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

God has already defeated the sin and death.

As a fellower of Jesus, we should build a close relationship with God,have communion with him, united with God through praying, fasting, worshiping, reading bible ,every day self-denial, love God and love others . So, we can united with God(Jesus) and defeat the sin and death with Him together ultimately.

Am I correct?

Yes, but I must reiterate that the Orthodox ontology suggests that aside from Orthodox Baptism, Confession, and Holy Communion, these activities are not fully able to be realized in the fullness of God's Grace.  Even within the Church we must continually reinvigorate ourselves by participating with these Divine Mysteries.  That is what I meant by symbolic, Jesus' death becomes symbolic of our own participation with His Death through our many deaths as we crucify our sins and our resurrected to a true life by the Divine Mysteries of Confession and Holy Communion.

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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walter1234
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« Reply #11 on: October 06, 2012, 03:43:09 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

God has already defeated the sin and death.

As a fellower of Jesus, we should build a close relationship with God,have communion with him, united with God through praying, fasting, worshiping, reading bible ,every day self-denial, love God and love others . So, we can united with God(Jesus) and defeat the sin and death with Him together ultimately.

Am I correct?

Yes, but I must reiterate that the Orthodox ontology suggests that aside from Orthodox Baptism, Confession, and Holy Communion, these activities are not fully able to be realized in the fullness of God's Grace.  Even within the Church we must continually reinvigorate ourselves by participating with these Divine Mysteries.  That is what I meant by symbolic, Jesus' death becomes symbolic of our own participation with His Death through our many deaths as we crucify our sins and our resurrected to a true life by the Divine Mysteries of Confession and Holy Communion.

stay blessed,
habte selassie

Beside Orthodox Baptism, Confession, and Holy Communion,all other activities such as praying, fasting, worshiping, reading bible ,every day self-denial, love God by loving others cannot help us to fully realized in the fullness of God's Grace.

Why only Orthodox Baptism, Confession, and Holy Communion can fully be realized in the fullness of God's Grace ?
« Last Edit: October 06, 2012, 03:47:13 PM by walter1234 » Logged
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« Reply #12 on: October 06, 2012, 03:52:01 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!



God has already defeated the sin and death.

As a fellower of Jesus, we should build a close relationship with God,have communion with him, united with God through praying, fasting, worshiping, reading bible ,every day self-denial, love God and love others . So, we can united with God(Jesus) and defeat the sin and death with Him together ultimately.

Am I correct?

Yes, but I must reiterate that the Orthodox ontology suggests that aside from Orthodox Baptism, Confession, and Holy Communion, these activities are not fully able to be realized in the fullness of God's Grace.  Even within the Church we must continually reinvigorate ourselves by participating with these Divine Mysteries.  That is what I meant by symbolic, Jesus' death becomes symbolic of our own participation with His Death through our many deaths as we crucify our sins and our resurrected to a true life by the Divine Mysteries of Confession and Holy Communion.

stay blessed,
habte selassie

Beside Orthodox Baptism, Confession, and Holy Communion,all other activities such as praying, fasting, worshiping, reading bible ,every day self-denial, love God by loving others cannot help us to fully realized in the fullness of God's Grace.

Why only Orthodox Baptism, Confession, and Holy Communion can fully be realized in the fullness of God's Grace ?

That is just the way it is.  When folks who are not Baptized pray, or fast, or worship, to be sure God still acts in their lives by Grace.  However, they are still short of having actually walked through the door.  It sort of like enjoy the smell of coffee from passing by outside the coffee shop or enjoying the  music of a good live band bleeding through the walls and door out in front of the club.  Baptism is the initiation proper into the Church, so much so that even Our Lord was Baptized by John the Baptist.  So if folks who are not Baptized participate in God's Grace through such activities, it is only to inevitably bring them into the Church through Baptism, so that they can finally Confess their sins and receive His Holy Communion.  For us in the Church, we EQUALLY do and live these things only as a mechanism to keep us in a Repentant relationship with God and to actively receive His Holy Communion (hence why we have Church every Sunday and in some places, every day, in the first place Wink )

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #13 on: October 06, 2012, 03:59:22 PM »

It's not "besides". It is all those other things you mentioned, too. In other words, an Orthodox person who depends on his status as a baptized Christian rather than his everyday commitment as shown by the kinds of acts you mentioned would be in a perilous position, indeed. But this does not erase or mitigate the need for holy baptism as the entrance to the ark of salvation, the Church. "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God." And really, if you think about it logically, if you are going to attempt to live as a serious and committed Orthodox Christian, you do best to do so within the Orthodox Church established by Christ Jesus for the salvation of your soul. Believe me, I've tried to be Orthodox in all things but being Orthodox...it ultimately cannot work. Christ the bridegroom desires the Church as His beloved, so if you know this and still lay with another... Shocked
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