Author Topic: Distractions During Liturgy  (Read 9579 times)

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Offline JamesR

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Distractions During Liturgy
« on: October 05, 2012, 12:12:15 AM »
Any advice on how to refrain from being distracted during the Divine Liturgy? Trying to keep it as appropriate as possible, there is this Greek woman at my Church who is VERY attractive, and sometimes dresses provacatively. I find myself often paying more attention to her than the Liturgy, and even worse, she is an Epistle Reader, so sometimes I am forced to look at her. I've tried standing in a different part of the Church so that she is not visible, but unfortunately my Church is rather small and it is almost impossible to refrain from looking at her. Advice?
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Offline choy

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Re: Distractions During Liturgy
« Reply #1 on: October 05, 2012, 12:24:22 AM »
Any advice on how to refrain from being distracted during the Divine Liturgy? Trying to keep it as appropriate as possible, there is this Greek woman at my Church who is VERY attractive, and sometimes dresses provacatively. I find myself often paying more attention to her than the Liturgy, and even worse, she is an Epistle Reader, so sometimes I am forced to look at her. I've tried standing in a different part of the Church so that she is not visible, but unfortunately my Church is rather small and it is almost impossible to refrain from looking at her. Advice?

Talk to your priest about it.

Offline Gamliel

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Re: Distractions During Liturgy
« Reply #2 on: October 05, 2012, 12:35:50 AM »
Look toward the altar and priest?  Would that get her out of view?

Offline dzheremi

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Re: Distractions During Liturgy
« Reply #3 on: October 05, 2012, 12:40:30 AM »
Yes, such concerns are best dealt with by the priest, as they concern your immediate surroundings in the church which he is the shepherd of. And what about looking at the icons that surround you, and not the reader? At my church we have a lovely icon of St. Moses the Ethiopian that is generally closest to me, so if i find myself distracted at some point during the liturgy, I will often look to it briefly and say a silent prayer for strength like that of the great and powerful St. Moses, so as to be attentive as befits a servant of God.

Also there are prayers to the Theotokos found in the Agpeya that help with the kinds of temptations you're having, I find:

"O pure Virgin, overshadow your servant with your instant help, and keep the waves of evil thoughts away from me, and raise up my ailing soul for prayer and vigil, for it has gone into a deep sleep. For you are a capable, compassionate and helpful mother, the bearer of the Fountain of Life, my King and my God, Jesus Christ, my hope."

I particularly like these prayers to the holy Virgin to fight lust (though the above is unspecified "evil thoughts", which is good because it is applicable to all kinds), because she is the ultimate model of purity for us all. Her intercessions are quite powerful for those who need help with that. :)

God be with you, James. I pray that He give you the strength needed to overcome your troubles.

Offline Gebre Menfes Kidus

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Re: Distractions During Liturgy
« Reply #4 on: October 05, 2012, 01:11:18 AM »
It's really a shame that this is even an issue in some of our Churches. I would talk to your Priest respectfully but firmly. If nothing changes, then I would find another Church. If your Priest doesn't haven't sense enough to notice this problem himself, that's a concern right away. But if he ignores your concern and continues to allow this woman to dress in such a manner, then I would shake the dust from my feet and move forward. This stuff is shameful. Sorry you are having to deal with it.



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Offline NicholasMyra

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Re: Distractions During Liturgy
« Reply #5 on: October 05, 2012, 03:04:39 AM »
sometimes dresses provacatively.
What would you call "provocatively"?
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Offline JamesR

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Re: Distractions During Liturgy
« Reply #6 on: October 05, 2012, 03:22:03 AM »
It's really a shame that this is even an issue in some of our Churches. I would talk to your Priest respectfully but firmly. If nothing changes, then I would find another Church. If your Priest doesn't haven't sense enough to notice this problem himself, that's a concern right away. But if he ignores your concern and continues to allow this woman to dress in such a manner, then I would shake the dust from my feet and move forward. This stuff is shameful. Sorry you are having to deal with it.



Selam

I appreciate your concern, but I would prefer if you would go easier on my Priest than instantly jumping the gun and getting so 'fired up'. My Priest is a very good man with a busy life; he has a family, a Church and all these constant OCA meetings in different states that he always has to attend. And on top of it all, he still goes out of his way to help me and guide me--even when I do not want it. He is always the first one to email me concerned whenever I miss a Liturgy and responding to my constant questions. Likewise, I would not blame the woman in question either. She should not have to dress in a particular way just because I cannot control myself. In fact, she doesn't even dress THAT provacatively but provacatively enough to turn me on. Also, I'm not going to leave the one Church where everyone truly treats me like a part of their family.

What would you call "provocatively"?

Not much by today's standards, but enough to catch my attention--which is why I blame myself more than her. Sometimes she'll wear slightly-shorter-than-appropriate length skirts and spike heels.

[/quote]
« Last Edit: October 05, 2012, 03:26:55 AM by JamesR »
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Offline Cognomen

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Re: Distractions During Liturgy
« Reply #7 on: October 05, 2012, 03:36:36 AM »
It's really a shame that this is even an issue in some of our Churches. I would talk to your Priest respectfully but firmly. If nothing changes, then I would find another Church. If your Priest doesn't haven't sense enough to notice this problem himself, that's a concern right away. But if he ignores your concern and continues to allow this woman to dress in such a manner, then I would shake the dust from my feet and move forward. This stuff is shameful. Sorry you are having to deal with it.

Agreed.  I'm no prude, but this can be a real problem.   The priest needs to be informed though, as he could be unaware of this, or at least the effect it causes.  

I'm sure some will think or reply that James (or Gebre, or me, or anyone else) should just mind their own business.  It's not that simple, and there's a reason why men and women have traditionally been separated and/or encouraged to dress modestly during religious services.  It can be very distracting (and frequently having nothing to do with lust).
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Offline mike

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Re: Distractions During Liturgy
« Reply #8 on: October 05, 2012, 06:11:47 AM »
It's really a shame that this is even an issue in some of our Churches. I would talk to your Priest respectfully but firmly. If nothing changes, then I would find another Church. If your Priest doesn't haven't sense enough to notice this problem himself, that's a concern right away. But if he ignores your concern and continues to allow this woman to dress in such a manner, then I would shake the dust from my feet and move forward. This stuff is shameful. Sorry you are having to deal with it.

Why to bother the priest? Let's stone her!
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Offline Orthodox11

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Re: Distractions During Liturgy
« Reply #9 on: October 05, 2012, 06:22:20 AM »
Why to bother the priest? Let's stone her!

You still have to check with the priest to make sure the size of the stones are sharia compliant and what size Bible you should have under your arm while you throw to make sure you don't kill her too quickly.


I think Gebre got a bit carried away on this one. As James said, she wasn't even that inappropriately dressed. I agree we should be encouraged to wear clothes that are modest, but when people are constantly encouraged to wear posh clothes to church what do we expect? While men can go with suits, women can't win it seems. Either clothes are too casual, too old fashioned, too attention grabbing, too revealing. I like the Ethiopian custom: everyone wrap themselves in a white shroud, problem solved.

James should be thankful he doesn't go to a normal Russian parish, where you're unlikely to see anyone in a skirt that reaches all the way down to the knee.



What you should trouble the priest about is why he allows a woman to read the Epistle!  ;)
« Last Edit: October 05, 2012, 06:22:52 AM by Orthodox11 »

Offline jmbejdl

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Re: Distractions During Liturgy
« Reply #10 on: October 05, 2012, 06:27:00 AM »
Why to bother the priest? Let's stone her!

You still have to check with the priest to make sure the size of the stones are sharia compliant and what size Bible you should have under your arm while you throw to make sure you don't kill her too quickly.


I think Gebre got a bit carried away on this one. As James said, she wasn't even that inappropriately dressed. I agree we should be encouraged to wear clothes that are modest, but when people are constantly encouraged to wear posh clothes to church what do we expect? While men can go with suits, women can't win it seems. Either clothes are too casual, too old fashioned, too attention grabbing, too revealing. I like the Ethiopian custom: everyone wrap themselves in a white shroud, problem solved.

James should be thankful he doesn't go to a normal Russian parish, where you're unlikely to see anyone in a skirt that reaches all the way down to the knee.



What you should trouble the priest about is why he allows a woman to read the Epistle!  ;)

Don't know about Russian parishes but we get that with a fair few young women in the Romanian parishes. Luckily I'm now too old to be distracted much by that sort of thing, but it does make me chuckle at the incongruity when I see above the knee skirts, high heels, cleevage... and a head scarf. Talk about shutting the stable door after the horse has bolted.

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Offline Gebre Menfes Kidus

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Re: Distractions During Liturgy
« Reply #11 on: October 05, 2012, 06:31:26 AM »
It's really a shame that this is even an issue in some of our Churches. I would talk to your Priest respectfully but firmly. If nothing changes, then I would find another Church. If your Priest doesn't haven't sense enough to notice this problem himself, that's a concern right away. But if he ignores your concern and continues to allow this woman to dress in such a manner, then I would shake the dust from my feet and move forward. This stuff is shameful. Sorry you are having to deal with it.

Why to bother the priest? Let's stone her!

Yeah, that's exactly what I what I was calling for.  ::)

Look, the dude was bothered enough to ask us for opinions, and I offered mine. If it's not a big deal, he shouldn't have brought it up.



Selam
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Offline mike

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Re: Distractions During Liturgy
« Reply #12 on: October 05, 2012, 06:36:58 AM »
Look, the dude was bothered enough to ask us for opinions, and I offered mine. If it's not a big deal, he shouldn't have brought it up.

Many of "that dude's" posts are about how he likes to masturbate or whom would he like to have sex with. You have not spare a second to think about that. Instead you've called for a crusade, calling the priest, leaving the church. The only two things you forgot to suggest were informing the bishop or committing an honor killing.
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Re: Distractions During Liturgy
« Reply #13 on: October 05, 2012, 06:48:34 AM »
Look, the dude was bothered enough to ask us for opinions, and I offered mine. If it's not a big deal, he shouldn't have brought it up.

Many of "that dude's" posts are about how he likes to masturbate or whom would he like to have sex with. You have not spare a second to think about that. Instead you've called for a crusade, calling the priest, leaving the church. The only two things you forgot to suggest were informing the bishop or committing an honor killing.

Wrong again. Anytime anybody on this forum has confessed their struggles with temptation and sin, I have only offered prayers, grace, and encouragement. In fact, I have sent our brother PM's encouraging him and offering him my support and my unworthy prayers regarding his struggles. Go back and read my initial response to his post here. I encouraged our brother to talk to his Priest about the situation. I hope his Priest will be sympathetic and do something about it. But if his Priest turns a blind eye to the situation, then yes, I encourage our brother to move to another parish. Call me judgmental.


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« Last Edit: October 05, 2012, 06:50:07 AM by Gebre Menfes Kidus »
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Offline Αριστοκλής

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Re: Distractions During Liturgy
« Reply #14 on: October 05, 2012, 06:56:39 AM »
Oh to be 50, er, um .....16 again...
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Offline akimori makoto

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Re: Distractions During Liturgy
« Reply #15 on: October 05, 2012, 07:39:36 AM »
Why to bother the priest? Let's stone her!

You still have to check with the priest to make sure the size of the stones are sharia compliant and what size Bible you should have under your arm while you throw to make sure you don't kill her too quickly.


I think Gebre got a bit carried away on this one. As James said, she wasn't even that inappropriately dressed. I agree we should be encouraged to wear clothes that are modest, but when people are constantly encouraged to wear posh clothes to church what do we expect? While men can go with suits, women can't win it seems. Either clothes are too casual, too old fashioned, too attention grabbing, too revealing. I like the Ethiopian custom: everyone wrap themselves in a white shroud, problem solved.

James should be thankful he doesn't go to a normal Russian parish, where you're unlikely to see anyone in a skirt that reaches all the way down to the knee.



What you should trouble the priest about is why he allows a woman to read the Epistle!  ;)

+1 to each of those paragraphs.
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Offline Marc1152

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Re: Distractions During Liturgy
« Reply #16 on: October 05, 2012, 09:41:16 AM »
Any advice on how to refrain from being distracted during the Divine Liturgy? Trying to keep it as appropriate as possible, there is this Greek woman at my Church who is VERY attractive, and sometimes dresses provacatively. I find myself often paying more attention to her than the Liturgy, and even worse, she is an Epistle Reader, so sometimes I am forced to look at her. I've tried standing in a different part of the Church so that she is not visible, but unfortunately my Church is rather small and it is almost impossible to refrain from looking at her. Advice?

Dont sweat it too much..Is natural.

Volunteer for alter service maybe.

Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm

Offline Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)

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Re: Distractions During Liturgy
« Reply #17 on: October 05, 2012, 10:02:50 AM »
Any advice on how to refrain from being distracted during the Divine Liturgy? Trying to keep it as appropriate as possible, there is this Greek woman at my Church who is VERY attractive, and sometimes dresses provacatively. I find myself often paying more attention to her than the Liturgy, and even worse, she is an Epistle Reader, so sometimes I am forced to look at her. I've tried standing in a different part of the Church so that she is not visible, but unfortunately my Church is rather small and it is almost impossible to refrain from looking at her. Advice?

Dont sweat it too much..Is natural.

Volunteer for alter service maybe.



Excellent advice. Also, sometimes singing in the choir also helps.

Offline jmbejdl

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Re: Distractions During Liturgy
« Reply #18 on: October 05, 2012, 10:08:53 AM »
Any advice on how to refrain from being distracted during the Divine Liturgy? Trying to keep it as appropriate as possible, there is this Greek woman at my Church who is VERY attractive, and sometimes dresses provacatively. I find myself often paying more attention to her than the Liturgy, and even worse, she is an Epistle Reader, so sometimes I am forced to look at her. I've tried standing in a different part of the Church so that she is not visible, but unfortunately my Church is rather small and it is almost impossible to refrain from looking at her. Advice?

Dont sweat it too much..Is natural.

Volunteer for alter service maybe.



Excellent advice. Also, sometimes singing in the choir also helps.

I'd second that. Singing, even if only chanting the ison (which is definitely the way to start, assuming you use Byzantine chant in your parish - I've no idea about the Slavic music), requires you to pay attention. The chances of you being distracted, therefore, should be much lower.

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Offline mike

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Re: Distractions During Liturgy
« Reply #19 on: October 05, 2012, 10:17:44 AM »
Excellent advice. Also, sometimes singing in the choir also helps.

Hottests chicks always sing in the choir...
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Re: Distractions During Liturgy
« Reply #20 on: October 05, 2012, 10:24:36 AM »
Look, the dude was bothered enough to ask us for opinions, and I offered mine. If it's not a big deal, he shouldn't have brought it up.

Many of "that dude's" posts are about how he likes to masturbate or whom would he like to have sex with. You have not spare a second to think about that. Instead you've called for a crusade, calling the priest, leaving the church. The only two things you forgot to suggest were informing the bishop or committing an honor killing.

Wrong again. Anytime anybody on this forum has confessed their struggles with temptation and sin, I have only offered prayers, grace, and encouragement. In fact, I have sent our brother PM's encouraging him and offering him my support and my unworthy prayers regarding his struggles. Go back and read my initial response to his post here. I encouraged our brother to talk to his Priest about the situation. I hope his Priest will be sympathetic and do something about it. But if his Priest turns a blind eye to the situation, then yes, I encourage our brother to move to another parish. Call me judgmental.
Yes, you've already rendered your judgment firmly against the woman James told us about. I wouldn't call that an offering of prayers, grace, and encouragement. ::)
« Last Edit: October 05, 2012, 10:25:16 AM by PeterTheAleut »
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Offline jmbejdl

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Re: Distractions During Liturgy
« Reply #21 on: October 05, 2012, 10:41:44 AM »
Excellent advice. Also, sometimes singing in the choir also helps.

Hottests chicks always sing in the choir...

Ours is all male...
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Re: Distractions During Liturgy
« Reply #22 on: October 05, 2012, 02:52:50 PM »
Quote
Sometimes she'll wear slightly-shorter-than-appropriate length skirts and spike heels
Sounds Greek to me  :laugh:

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Offline vamrat

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Re: Distractions During Liturgy
« Reply #23 on: October 05, 2012, 03:10:01 PM »
Why to bother the priest? Let's stone her!

You still have to check with the priest to make sure the size of the stones are sharia compliant and what size Bible you should have under your arm while you throw to make sure you don't kill her too quickly.


I think Gebre got a bit carried away on this one. As James said, she wasn't even that inappropriately dressed. I agree we should be encouraged to wear clothes that are modest, but when people are constantly encouraged to wear posh clothes to church what do we expect? While men can go with suits, women can't win it seems. Either clothes are too casual, too old fashioned, too attention grabbing, too revealing. I like the Ethiopian custom: everyone wrap themselves in a white shroud, problem solved.

James should be thankful he doesn't go to a normal Russian parish, where you're unlikely to see anyone in a skirt that reaches all the way down to the knee.



What you should trouble the priest about is why he allows a woman to read the Epistle!  ;)

This is the first thing that popped up for me too.  I mean, sluts abound and you just learn to get over them.  But a woman reading the Epistle?  Next they'll be reading the Gospel too.
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Offline Αριστοκλής

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Re: Distractions During Liturgy
« Reply #24 on: October 05, 2012, 04:00:10 PM »
Quote
But a woman reading the Epistle?  Next they'll be reading the Gospel too.

I hear you. Three years ago when I was visiting parents in VA I attended DL at my home parish. I could not believe they had a woman reading the Epistle. This with an archimandrite priest too.
The Greeks often deserve the reputation they have.
Since then on visits I go to the OCA parish instead where that sort of thing just doesn't happen.

As to the OP's problem, he's likely to have it for a long time. Not being critical - I just understand it.
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Offline Nephi

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Re: Distractions During Liturgy
« Reply #25 on: October 05, 2012, 04:24:17 PM »
Quote
But a woman reading the Epistle?  Next they'll be reading the Gospel too.

I hear you. Three years ago when I was visiting parents in VA I attended DL at my home parish. I could not believe they had a woman reading the Epistle. This with an archimandrite priest too.
The Greeks often deserve the reputation they have.
Since then on visits I go to the OCA parish instead where that sort of thing just doesn't happen.

Is it really not the norm to allow females to read the Epistle?

Offline Justin Kissel

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Re: Distractions During Liturgy
« Reply #26 on: October 05, 2012, 04:27:24 PM »
Where an Achronos-style toga/robe! You'll be so ashamed of your own appearance and you won't think twice about what others look like!  :)

Offline Orthodox11

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Re: Distractions During Liturgy
« Reply #27 on: October 05, 2012, 04:32:21 PM »
Is it really not the norm to allow females to read the Epistle?

Absolutely not. In Greek churches outside of the US it's extremely rare to even allow women to sing in church. Having a female epistle reader would absolutely unthinkable to most.

Offline choy

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Re: Distractions During Liturgy
« Reply #28 on: October 05, 2012, 04:34:49 PM »

This is the first thing that popped up for me too.  I mean, sluts abound and you just learn to get over them.  But a woman reading the Epistle?  Next they'll be reading the Gospel too.

They have to be ordained a Deaconess first.

Offline Nephi

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Re: Distractions During Liturgy
« Reply #29 on: October 05, 2012, 04:42:00 PM »
Is it really not the norm to allow females to read the Epistle?

Absolutely not. In Greek churches outside of the US it's extremely rare to even allow women to sing in church. Having a female epistle reader would absolutely unthinkable to most.

So is this a Greek issue? I've known of Antiochian and Russian churches having females reading the Epistle, albeit in the US, and I suppose non-US norms may be different.

Offline Orthodox11

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Re: Distractions During Liturgy
« Reply #30 on: October 05, 2012, 04:48:50 PM »
So is this a Greek issue? I've known of Antiochian and Russian churches having females reading the Epistle, albeit in the US, and I suppose non-US norms may be different.

I mentioned Greeks specifically because Αριστοκλής said that "The Greeks often deserve the reputation they have" and contrasted it with an OCA where this doesn't happen.

I do think the only place this kind of thing happens on a regular basis is the US, which is the home of many a liturgical anomaly. The only time I have ever witnessed a woman reading the epistle here has been at weekday liturgies in Russian churches where there were only a couple of women in the choir, the priest was alone in the altar, and the congregation consisted almost entirely of old ladies. In other words, when there was no other option.

« Last Edit: October 05, 2012, 04:52:30 PM by Orthodox11 »

Offline Αριστοκλής

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Re: Distractions During Liturgy
« Reply #31 on: October 05, 2012, 05:04:43 PM »
Note: Being Hellenic-American myself I feel I can take a swipe at my baptismal jurisdiction. This is not to discredit the women of my old parish - they quite literally built the church with their labors which equal or exceed the contributions of the men.
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Re: Distractions During Liturgy
« Reply #32 on: October 05, 2012, 05:19:42 PM »
James, it helps me to pray the Jesus Prayer when I'm in Liturgy.  It also helps me to pray to the Holy Theotokos and ask for Her aid to keep my attention centered on Her Son. 
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Offline orthonorm

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Re: Distractions During Liturgy
« Reply #33 on: October 05, 2012, 06:00:27 PM »
Where an Achronos-style toga/robe! You'll be so ashamed of your own appearance and you won't think twice about what others look like!  :)

Brilliant psychologicalz.

For real.
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Re: Distractions During Liturgy
« Reply #34 on: October 05, 2012, 06:12:38 PM »
sometimes dresses provacatively.
What would you call "provocatively"?


You mean like the guy in my parish who was going up to Communion at Pascha and was wearing a half-open shirt with no undershirt? The kind that provokes, indeed - to vomiting?

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Re: Distractions During Liturgy
« Reply #35 on: October 05, 2012, 06:21:44 PM »
Also, it may interest you guys to know that my Church actually is OCA and they allow women to be readers. So whoever was criticizing the Greeks for allowing a female Epistle reader, their criticism is misplaced. The Church jurisdiction is OCA, just the extremely hot woman in question happens to be Greek.
...Or it's just possible he's a mouthy young man on an internet forum.
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Re: Distractions During Liturgy
« Reply #36 on: October 05, 2012, 07:00:44 PM »
James, it helps me to pray the Jesus Prayer when I'm in Liturgy.  It also helps me to pray to the Holy Theotokos and ask for Her aid to keep my attention centered on Her Son. 

+1

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Re: Distractions During Liturgy
« Reply #37 on: October 05, 2012, 07:08:56 PM »
extremely hot woman

To give better advice, I would need to know exactly what you are going through.  Do you have a photo by any chance?












Okay, sorry, I'm just kidding  ;D I couldn't resist :p

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Re: Distractions During Liturgy
« Reply #38 on: October 05, 2012, 09:33:39 PM »
I think that some of the other posters have the wrong idea about who is "at fault".  We are human beings and this is natural, but I don't think it's Jame's place to tattle on this woman to the priest.

In quoting my Muslim friend: "lower your gaze, homie!"   ;)

Do something to distract you.  Look at the icon of Christ on the iconostasis.  Look into his eyes.  Get "in the zone".  I also have found holding a rosary or prayer rope to help direct my attention to higher things.

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Re: Distractions During Liturgy
« Reply #39 on: October 05, 2012, 10:10:27 PM »
sometimes dresses provacatively.
What would you call "provocatively"?


You mean like the guy in my parish who was going up to Communion at Pascha and was wearing a half-open shirt with no undershirt? The kind that provokes, indeed - to vomiting?

If there were no gold chains, he could have been a fool for Christ.
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Re: Distractions During Liturgy
« Reply #40 on: October 06, 2012, 01:47:51 PM »
Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Any advice on how to refrain from being distracted during the Divine Liturgy? Trying to keep it as appropriate as possible, there is this Greek woman at my Church who is VERY attractive, and sometimes dresses provacatively. I find myself often paying more attention to her than the Liturgy, and even worse, she is an Epistle Reader, so sometimes I am forced to look at her. I've tried standing in a different part of the Church so that she is not visible, but unfortunately my Church is rather small and it is almost impossible to refrain from looking at her. Advice?

Duh, look at the icons ;)


There are attractive women at Church, this is nothing new, in fact, news flash, sometimes the women are distracted by the men too!  However and again, when our minds wander we need to casually bring them back to center reminding ourselves of the context and setting.  Its Church yo!!  Try your best at the least to save the gawking and peacocking for coffee hour  :police:

Some sagely advice from Father Meletios Webber

Quote
When we are standing in Church, thoughts and feelings about the people who are standing or sitting nearby are almost unavoidable. If, when you are standing in Church, a thought or feeling about someone else arises, gently push it aside.  There is absolutely no point in getting angry with yourself, or even disappointed, since that simply sets up a struggle inside yourself that reinforces the effect of taking you away from where you want to be.  Having pushed the thought aside, you can resume your place in the Body of Christ, and like the angels, stand around the throne in silent adoration."
Bread and Water, Oil and Wine


It's really a shame that this is even an issue in some of our Churches. I would talk to your Priest respectfully but firmly. If nothing changes, then I would find another Church. If your Priest doesn't haven't sense enough to notice this problem himself, that's a concern right away. But if he ignores your concern and continues to allow this woman to dress in such a manner, then I would shake the dust from my feet and move forward. This stuff is shameful. Sorry you are having to deal with it.



Selam

Whoa.  Slow it down brotha, women even in prayer shawls are still attractive women, lets not blame biology on the Bishop now!


stay blessed,
habte selassie
« Last Edit: October 06, 2012, 01:51:15 PM by HabteSelassie »
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Re: Distractions During Liturgy
« Reply #41 on: October 06, 2012, 02:08:57 PM »
sometimes dresses provacatively.
What would you call "provocatively"?


You mean like the guy in my parish who was going up to Communion at Pascha and was wearing a half-open shirt with no undershirt? The kind that provokes, indeed - to vomiting?

If there were no gold chains, he could have been a fool for Christ.

Okay. Point taken.  :)

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Re: Distractions During Liturgy
« Reply #42 on: October 06, 2012, 02:45:54 PM »
It's really a shame that this is even an issue in some of our Churches. I would talk to your Priest respectfully but firmly. If nothing changes, then I would find another Church. If your Priest doesn't haven't sense enough to notice this problem himself, that's a concern right away. But if he ignores your concern and continues to allow this woman to dress in such a manner, then I would shake the dust from my feet and move forward. This stuff is shameful. Sorry you are having to deal with it.



Selam

Whoa.  Slow it down brotha, women even in prayer shawls are still attractive women, lets not blame biology on the Bishop now!
Yup. A woman could even be wearing a burqa, yet men will still find ways to undress her.
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Re: Distractions During Liturgy
« Reply #43 on: October 06, 2012, 03:00:56 PM »
Yup. A woman could even be wearing a burqa, yet men will still find ways to undress her.

Dem ankles

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Re: Distractions During Liturgy
« Reply #44 on: October 06, 2012, 03:47:04 PM »
So is this a Greek issue? I've known of Antiochian and Russian churches having females reading the Epistle, albeit in the US, and I suppose non-US norms may be different.

Happens quite often here.

We also have one nice looking woman to read sometimes. Unfortunately, she's already married.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2012, 03:48:01 PM by Michał Kalina »
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Re: Distractions During Liturgy
« Reply #45 on: October 06, 2012, 04:03:23 PM »
So why have women wear anything at all? Let them come to Church naked, and read the scriptures while doing a pole dance. I mean, lust is our problem not theirs. Doesn't matter how they dress or how they act. The sin is in the eye of the beholder not in the actions or attire of those that are beheld.  But yeah, I realize that my calls for modesty make me no different than Osama Bin Laden. ::)


Selam
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Re: Distractions During Liturgy
« Reply #46 on: October 06, 2012, 04:15:47 PM »
But yeah, I realize that my calls for modesty make me no different than Osama Bin Laden. ::)

I don't think anyone has any problem with your call for modesty. Shaking the dust from your feet signifies that the place you're leaving is damned and accursed. That's a little over the top, don't you think?

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Re: Distractions During Liturgy
« Reply #47 on: October 06, 2012, 04:24:50 PM »
Is OUTRAGE!!!
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Re: Distractions During Liturgy
« Reply #48 on: October 06, 2012, 04:26:25 PM »
Yes, if we could eliminate all distractions during Liturgy then everyone could pay proper attention. James' complaint is common, but here is a list of all the things I think need to be addressed:

Cell-phones- because no human being ever could possibly forget to turn their ringer off early in the morning when they have yet to even smell coffee.

Women in low cut necklines- anything lower than the eyebrows draws my attention

Women in short dresses- If they aren't in constant danger of tripping over, it's too short.

Women in tight clothing- They leave nothing to the imagination.

Women in loose clothing- because the Liturgy is about prayer, and one is not to engage the imagination during prayer.

Old ladies- I'm afraid I might goof somehow and get a cane about the cranium.

Men in expensive suits- this is Church, not the country club. Get rid of the Rolex, too.

Men in casual clothes- Can't you have the decency to dress up in the Lord's presence?

My feet- Even in sneakers 3 1/2 hours is too long to stand.

The priest chants off-key- It's hard on the ears and detracts from the beauty of the Liturgy.

The priest chants beautifully- The beauty distracts from the worship.

The priest chants just right- it blends in too much and the mind drifts.

Bad icons- Save those for the westerners.

Good icons- Too much time trying to figure out the Greek shorthand

That one person in the choir- This isn't the opera.

The laity sings- No one knows the tone.

The laity doesn't sing- Don't they know this is supposed to be the work of the people?

Kids in the service- They're too darn cute and the race cars are a hazard.

Kids in Sunday school- they belong in the parish as part of the Church.

That dust mote- the janitor's not doing his job right.

Collection plate- There is no "traditional" time to pass the plate during the service, no matter what your service book says.

No collection plate- Great, another long parish council meeting after the service about how no one donates.

The youth group acting up- Didn't their parents teach them how to behave?

The youth group are angels- Oh, so because they grew up in the Church they're better than us converts?

That guy with the squeaky shoe- Obvious, really.

That guy with no shoes- Show some respect.

If we can address all these issues, the Church would be perfect and there would be no distractions.
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Re: Distractions During Liturgy
« Reply #49 on: October 06, 2012, 05:58:48 PM »
But yeah, I realize that my calls for modesty make me no different than Osama Bin Laden. ::)

I don't think anyone has any problem with your call for modesty. Shaking the dust from your feet signifies that the place you're leaving is damned and accursed. That's a little over the top, don't you think?


Yes, I can agree that my choice of words could have been better. I certainly didn't mean to imply that his Church was damned and accursed. My point was that if our brother's spiritual concerns were not taken seriously, then he might want to find a parish and a Priest that would take them seriously.

Temptations are always with us, even if we flee to desert solitude. But I think the Church should try as much as possible to be a refuge from the sensual temptations and enticements that bombard us in our every day lives. And I think sometimes certain Priests are more worried about not passing judgment on a single individual than about preserving the spiritual safety of all. Surely there is proper balance between the two. I would hope we could all agree on that.


Selam
« Last Edit: October 06, 2012, 05:59:44 PM by Gebre Menfes Kidus »
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Re: Distractions During Liturgy
« Reply #50 on: October 06, 2012, 06:01:25 PM »
What you should trouble the priest about is why he allows a woman to read the Epistle!  ;)
I agree!
« Last Edit: October 06, 2012, 06:09:45 PM by Severian »
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Re: Distractions During Liturgy
« Reply #51 on: October 06, 2012, 06:45:12 PM »
Imodest dressing and women reading the epistle. Both worries me.
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Re: Distractions During Liturgy
« Reply #52 on: October 06, 2012, 07:54:59 PM »
Most Greek Orthodox in the US allow women to read the Epistles during the liturgy service.They can read the Gospel when ever they want at home. ::)
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Re: Distractions During Liturgy
« Reply #53 on: October 06, 2012, 08:00:06 PM »
What you should trouble the priest about is why he allows a woman to read the Epistle!  ;)
I agree!

I'm not sure why this is a problem. There used to be women deacons.

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Re: Distractions During Liturgy
« Reply #54 on: October 06, 2012, 08:00:24 PM »
Yes, if we could eliminate all distractions during Liturgy then everyone could pay proper attention. James' complaint is common, but here is a list of all the things I think need to be addressed:

Cell-phones- because no human being ever could possibly forget to turn their ringer off early in the morning when they have yet to even smell coffee.

Women in low cut necklines- anything lower than the eyebrows draws my attention

Women in short dresses- If they aren't in constant danger of tripping over, it's too short.

Women in tight clothing- They leave nothing to the imagination.

Women in loose clothing- because the Liturgy is about prayer, and one is not to engage the imagination during prayer.

Old ladies- I'm afraid I might goof somehow and get a cane about the cranium.

Men in expensive suits- this is Church, not the country club. Get rid of the Rolex, too.

Men in casual clothes- Can't you have the decency to dress up in the Lord's presence?

My feet- Even in sneakers 3 1/2 hours is too long to stand.

The priest chants off-key- It's hard on the ears and detracts from the beauty of the Liturgy.

The priest chants beautifully- The beauty distracts from the worship.

The priest chants just right- it blends in too much and the mind drifts.

Bad icons- Save those for the westerners.

Good icons- Too much time trying to figure out the Greek shorthand

That one person in the choir- This isn't the opera.

The laity sings- No one knows the tone.

The laity doesn't sing- Don't they know this is supposed to be the work of the people?

Kids in the service- They're too darn cute and the race cars are a hazard.

Kids in Sunday school- they belong in the parish as part of the Church.

That dust mote- the janitor's not doing his job right.

Collection plate- There is no "traditional" time to pass the plate during the service, no matter what your service book says.

No collection plate- Great, another long parish council meeting after the service about how no one donates.

The youth group acting up- Didn't their parents teach them how to behave?

The youth group are angels- Oh, so because they grew up in the Church they're better than us converts?

That guy with the squeaky shoe- Obvious, really.

That guy with no shoes- Show some respect.

If we can address all these issues, the Church would be perfect and there would be no distractions.

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Re: Distractions During Liturgy
« Reply #55 on: October 06, 2012, 10:18:26 PM »
On this one I would not be specific to your priest of who it is.  I would tell him of your distractions from immodestly dressed parishoners.  The scriptures and the church teach of modesty.  This is something your priest can handle VIA bulletin.
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Re: Distractions During Liturgy
« Reply #56 on: October 06, 2012, 10:26:25 PM »
I have never seen a woman read the epistle during the Divine Liturgy in a Greek Orthodox Church. On the other hand I would not object to it. What I do relish is the Agape service after Easter because the women who mean so much to me have the opportunity to read the Gospel (assuming they speak Serbian, French, Russian, etc.; and worth losing sleep because of it).

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Re: Distractions During Liturgy
« Reply #57 on: October 06, 2012, 10:44:33 PM »
What you should trouble the priest about is why he allows a woman to read the Epistle!  ;)
I agree!

I'm not sure why this is a problem. There used to be women deacons.
I also don't see the big deal.  When I went to an Orthodox Church, Matushka or Father's sister would both often read the epistle and chant parts that are typically for men in the Church.  It's not as though their being female makes them inadequate at this job.  I find in most cases, a woman's voice is a much more soothing and spiritually stimulating way to express the epistles.  I had a hard time listening to Mr. Reader, who would shout as loud as he could in a deep monotone. 

What's more important - being "kosher", or getting the message of Christ's life, death and resurrection to the worshipers?
« Last Edit: October 06, 2012, 10:45:02 PM by trevor72694 »

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Re: Distractions During Liturgy
« Reply #58 on: October 06, 2012, 11:01:31 PM »
What you should trouble the priest about is why he allows a woman to read the Epistle!  ;)
I agree!

I'm not sure why this is a problem. There used to be women deacons.
I also don't see the big deal.  When I went to an Orthodox Church, Matushka or Father's sister would both often read the epistle and chant parts that are typically for men in the Church.  It's not as though their being female makes them inadequate at this job.  I find in most cases, a woman's voice is a much more soothing and spiritually stimulating way to express the epistles.  I had a hard time listening to Mr. Reader, who would shout as loud as he could in a deep monotone. 

What's more important - being "kosher", or getting the message of Christ's life, death and resurrection to the worshipers?
I amy respond later. But for now, make your 2000th post a good one! ;)
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Re: Distractions During Liturgy
« Reply #59 on: October 06, 2012, 11:11:50 PM »
What you should trouble the priest about is why he allows a woman to read the Epistle!  ;)
I agree!

I'm not sure why this is a problem. There used to be women deacons.
I also don't see the big deal.  When I went to an Orthodox Church, Matushka or Father's sister would both often read the epistle and chant parts that are typically for men in the Church.  It's not as though their being female makes them inadequate at this job.  I find in most cases, a woman's voice is a much more soothing and spiritually stimulating way to express the epistles.  I had a hard time listening to Mr. Reader, who would shout as loud as he could in a deep monotone. 

What's more important - being "kosher", or getting the message of Christ's life, death and resurrection to the worshipers?
I amy respond later. But for now, make your 2000th post a good one! ;)
(As good a time as any, I suppose!)

Thank you!  I'm flattered.  I gather, then, that you all still like me, even though I'm no longer affiliated with the Orthodox Church.
I must say, denominations and nitty-gritty aside, I sure do love you all. :)

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Re: Distractions During Liturgy
« Reply #60 on: October 06, 2012, 11:49:25 PM »
So why have women wear anything at all? Let them come to Church naked, and read the scriptures while doing a pole dance. I mean, lust is our problem not theirs. Doesn't matter how they dress or how they act. The sin is in the eye of the beholder not in the actions or attire of those that are beheld.  But yeah, I realize that my calls for modesty make me no different than Osama Bin Laden. ::)
In your calls for modesty, however, you're placing the blame squarely on the woman and, might I say, stoning the woman without showing any real understanding of what James has shared with us. Let's face it, Gebre. James is a horny young man who has asked us for guidance on how to avert his eyes from distracting images. Blaming the woman solely on what James has told us about her offers nothing of assistance to what James has to go through at church with his own youthful temptations. You have no idea, and neither do I, what this woman really wears to church, so let's stop focusing on that.
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Re: Distractions During Liturgy
« Reply #61 on: October 06, 2012, 11:53:40 PM »
On this one I would not be specific to your priest of who it is.  I would tell him of your distractions from immodestly dressed parishoners.  The scriptures and the church teach of modesty.  This is something your priest can handle VIA bulletin.

Exactly. This sums it up for me.


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Re: Distractions During Liturgy
« Reply #62 on: October 06, 2012, 11:57:46 PM »
On this one I would not be specific to your priest of who it is.  I would tell him of your distractions from immodestly dressed parishoners.  The scriptures and the church teach of modesty.  This is something your priest can handle VIA bulletin.

Exactly. This sums it up for me.
Ya know, Gebre, I find quite disturbing how so many of your posts on this matter focus on what the woman is wearing while so few say anything about why you let your eyes wander in the first place.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2012, 12:02:12 AM by PeterTheAleut »
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Re: Distractions During Liturgy
« Reply #63 on: October 07, 2012, 12:19:53 AM »
Why admire the woman when you should be worshiping the One who created her? Seems like a rather significant step down...turn your thoughts away from earthly things, let us attend, etc., etc.

Just think: Just like God created this lady, God has also created someone (maybe several, seeing as how He loves to give us many chances) who will drive you wild at APPROPRIATE times (i.e., not during the liturgy), but that is likely largely contingent on your earning her favor by acting right...step one: not being the cartoon wolf while she's there trying to worship God, too.

The ball is really in your court, to say nothing of how she dresses (which is her own issue whether it causes you to think lustful things or not). Consider it a challenge from God to look her in the eyes when you talk to her, and if you sense your mind wandering to places it shouldn't go, to take the appropriate steps to nip that thought in the bud before you get all worked up. The passions are just like ants: A single one spotted wandering where it shouldn't be is probably a sign that there are many more where that came from, waiting for their moment to get in. Do what you need to do to keep yourself clean.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2012, 12:20:39 AM by dzheremi »

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Re: Distractions During Liturgy
« Reply #64 on: October 07, 2012, 12:28:59 AM »
Why admire the woman when you should be worshiping the One who created her? Seems like a rather significant step down...turn your thoughts away from earthly things, let us attend, etc., etc.

Just think: Just like God created this lady, God has also created someone (maybe several, seeing as how He loves to give us many chances) who will drive you wild at APPROPRIATE times (i.e., not during the liturgy), but that is likely largely contingent on your earning her favor by acting right...step one: not being the cartoon wolf while she's there trying to worship God, too.

The ball is really in your court, to say nothing of how she dresses (which is her own issue whether it causes you to think lustful things or not). Consider it a challenge from God to look her in the eyes when you talk to her, and if you sense your mind wandering to places it shouldn't go, to take the appropriate steps to nip that thought in the bud before you get all worked up. The passions are just like ants: A single one spotted wandering where it shouldn't be is probably a sign that there are many more where that came from, waiting for their moment to get in. Do what you need to do to keep yourself clean.
Very well said, dzheremi. Thank you for your balanced approach to this matter.
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Re: Distractions During Liturgy
« Reply #65 on: October 07, 2012, 12:34:31 AM »
On this one I would not be specific to your priest of who it is.  I would tell him of your distractions from immodestly dressed parishoners.  The scriptures and the church teach of modesty.  This is something your priest can handle VIA bulletin.

Exactly. This sums it up for me.
Ya know, Gebre, I find quite disturbing how so many of your posts on this matter focus on what the woman is wearing while so few say anything about why you let your eyes wander in the first place.

Pray for me brother.



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Re: Distractions During Liturgy
« Reply #66 on: October 07, 2012, 01:43:52 AM »
What you should trouble the priest about is why he allows a woman to read the Epistle!  ;)
I agree!

I'm not sure why this is a problem. There used to be women deacons.
I also don't see the big deal.  When I went to an Orthodox Church, Matushka or Father's sister would both often read the epistle and chant parts that are typically for men in the Church.  It's not as though their being female makes them inadequate at this job.  I find in most cases, a woman's voice is a much more soothing and spiritually stimulating way to express the epistles.  I had a hard time listening to Mr. Reader, who would shout as loud as he could in a deep monotone. 

What's more important - being "kosher", or getting the message of Christ's life, death and resurrection to the worshipers?
I amy respond later. But for now, make your 2000th post a good one! ;)
I meant 'may.'

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Re: Distractions During Liturgy
« Reply #67 on: October 07, 2012, 08:15:02 AM »
Yes, if we could eliminate all distractions during Liturgy then everyone could pay proper attention. James' complaint is common, but here is a list of all the things I think need to be addressed:

Cell-phones- because no human being ever could possibly forget to turn their ringer off early in the morning when they have yet to even smell coffee.

Women in low cut necklines- anything lower than the eyebrows draws my attention

Women in short dresses- If they aren't in constant danger of tripping over, it's too short.

Women in tight clothing- They leave nothing to the imagination.

Women in loose clothing- because the Liturgy is about prayer, and one is not to engage the imagination during prayer.

Old ladies- I'm afraid I might goof somehow and get a cane about the cranium.

Men in expensive suits- this is Church, not the country club. Get rid of the Rolex, too.

Men in casual clothes- Can't you have the decency to dress up in the Lord's presence?

My feet- Even in sneakers 3 1/2 hours is too long to stand.

The priest chants off-key- It's hard on the ears and detracts from the beauty of the Liturgy.

The priest chants beautifully- The beauty distracts from the worship.

The priest chants just right- it blends in too much and the mind drifts.

Bad icons- Save those for the westerners.

Good icons- Too much time trying to figure out the Greek shorthand

That one person in the choir- This isn't the opera.

The laity sings- No one knows the tone.

The laity doesn't sing- Don't they know this is supposed to be the work of the people?

Kids in the service- They're too darn cute and the race cars are a hazard.

Kids in Sunday school- they belong in the parish as part of the Church.

That dust mote- the janitor's not doing his job right.

Collection plate- There is no "traditional" time to pass the plate during the service, no matter what your service book says.

No collection plate- Great, another long parish council meeting after the service about how no one donates.

The youth group acting up- Didn't their parents teach them how to behave?

The youth group are angels- Oh, so because they grew up in the Church they're better than us converts?

That guy with the squeaky shoe- Obvious, really.

That guy with no shoes- Show some respect.

If we can address all these issues, the Church would be perfect and there would be no distractions.

LOL  Let's think about this one and add our own! :D

Offline Tikhon.of.Colorado

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Re: Distractions During Liturgy
« Reply #68 on: October 07, 2012, 08:34:30 AM »
Yes, if we could eliminate all distractions during Liturgy then everyone could pay proper attention. James' complaint is common, but here is a list of all the things I think need to be addressed:

Cell-phones- because no human being ever could possibly forget to turn their ringer off early in the morning when they have yet to even smell coffee.

Women in low cut necklines- anything lower than the eyebrows draws my attention

Women in short dresses- If they aren't in constant danger of tripping over, it's too short.

Women in tight clothing- They leave nothing to the imagination.

Women in loose clothing- because the Liturgy is about prayer, and one is not to engage the imagination during prayer.

Old ladies- I'm afraid I might goof somehow and get a cane about the cranium.

Men in expensive suits- this is Church, not the country club. Get rid of the Rolex, too.

Men in casual clothes- Can't you have the decency to dress up in the Lord's presence?

My feet- Even in sneakers 3 1/2 hours is too long to stand.

The priest chants off-key- It's hard on the ears and detracts from the beauty of the Liturgy.

The priest chants beautifully- The beauty distracts from the worship.

The priest chants just right- it blends in too much and the mind drifts.

Bad icons- Save those for the westerners.

Good icons- Too much time trying to figure out the Greek shorthand

That one person in the choir- This isn't the opera.

The laity sings- No one knows the tone.

The laity doesn't sing- Don't they know this is supposed to be the work of the people?

Kids in the service- They're too darn cute and the race cars are a hazard.

Kids in Sunday school- they belong in the parish as part of the Church.

That dust mote- the janitor's not doing his job right.

Collection plate- There is no "traditional" time to pass the plate during the service, no matter what your service book says.

No collection plate- Great, another long parish council meeting after the service about how no one donates.

The youth group acting up- Didn't their parents teach them how to behave?

The youth group are angels- Oh, so because they grew up in the Church they're better than us converts?

That guy with the squeaky shoe- Obvious, really.

That guy with no shoes- Show some respect.

If we can address all these issues, the Church would be perfect and there would be no distractions.

LOL  Let's think about this one and add our own! :D

I've got a couple:
Men with beards: My goodness, Mr. Zealot!  In these last two weeks since your chrismation, that squirrel sure has taken deep root in your face.

Men without beards:  Have you no respect for tradition or culture?  What do you think we are, Baptists?! 

Offline podkarpatska

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Re: Distractions During Liturgy
« Reply #69 on: October 07, 2012, 08:48:57 AM »
That cantor really knows his stuff - all the tones, all the irmosi. Wow.

That cantor, what a jerk, he thinks he's the lead act. What a show-off.

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Re: Distractions During Liturgy
« Reply #70 on: October 07, 2012, 01:40:05 PM »
That cantor really knows his stuff - all the tones, all the irmosi. Wow.

That cantor, what a jerk, he thinks he's the lead act. What a show-off.


The cantor has no clue- what'd they do, stick this guy up there just because he happened to be the only other person in the church during Orthros?

And yes, that's exactly what they did.  My only hope is that one other person chanting in English goes before me, and the tones don't switch :laugh:
« Last Edit: October 07, 2012, 01:45:18 PM by FormerReformer »
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Re: Distractions During Liturgy
« Reply #71 on: October 07, 2012, 04:44:33 PM »
Ever since they air-conditioned the church, it is always TOOOO cold.

Ever since they air-conditioned the church, they NEVER use it!

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Re: Distractions During Liturgy
« Reply #72 on: October 07, 2012, 07:07:06 PM »
Why is the choir director shaking his head? Did we do something wrong? ???
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Re: Distractions During Liturgy
« Reply #73 on: October 07, 2012, 07:42:38 PM »
Kids are a big distraction when they are too rambunctious, especially to the Catholic priest who has pedophile tendencies . :angel:
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Re: Distractions During Liturgy
« Reply #74 on: October 07, 2012, 07:53:03 PM »
Groan.

Get off stage, Sinful Hack!

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Re: Distractions During Liturgy
« Reply #75 on: October 07, 2012, 08:42:52 PM »
Kids are a big distraction when they are too rambunctious, especially to the Catholic priest who has pedophile tendencies . :angel:
:o

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Re: Distractions During Liturgy
« Reply #76 on: October 07, 2012, 08:57:27 PM »
On this one I would not be specific to your priest of who it is.  I would tell him of your distractions from immodestly dressed parishoners.  The scriptures and the church teach of modesty.  This is something your priest can handle VIA bulletin.

Exactly. This sums it up for me.
Ya know, Gebre, I find quite disturbing how so many of your posts on this matter focus on what the woman is wearing while so few say anything about why you let your eyes wander in the first place.

One doesn't necessarily have to "let one's eyes wander," sheesh.

These days, people don't really know what they're doing when they dress. Hence many jobs for professional consultants.

But this reminds me of an Orthodox Anecdote (TM) about Elder Porphyrios, a man named Niko, and an inappropriately dressed female visitor. Niko and the elder had been talking when the woman came in to meet the elder. He talked with her for awhile. Niko thought, "Can't the elder see how this woman is dressed? Why doesn't he tell her to correct herself? This is a monastery for crying out loud." Later, after she left, the elder said, "Mr. Niko. I'm afraid I have failed as a priest."

"Why elder?" Niko asked in amazement.

"Well, you know that woman who visited me? She was dressed very inappropriately and I didn't correct her."

Then Niko realied the elder had read his thoughts and repented for judging him.

And the elder said, "See, if I had told her she was dressed inappropriately, it would have gone in one ear and out the other. She wasn't ready to hear it. So I told her what she could hear, and later shel'll come around on her own and dress appropriately."
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Re: Distractions During Liturgy
« Reply #77 on: October 07, 2012, 08:58:47 PM »
What you should trouble the priest about is why he allows a woman to read the Epistle!  ;)
I agree!

I'm not sure why this is a problem. There used to be women deacons.
I also don't see the big deal.  When I went to an Orthodox Church, Matushka or Father's sister would both often read the epistle and chant parts that are typically for men in the Church.  It's not as though their being female makes them inadequate at this job.  I find in most cases, a woman's voice is a much more soothing and spiritually stimulating way to express the epistles.  I had a hard time listening to Mr. Reader, who would shout as loud as he could in a deep monotone. 

What's more important - being "kosher", or getting the message of Christ's life, death and resurrection to the worshipers?
I amy respond later. But for now, make your 2000th post a good one! ;)
I meant 'may.'

LOL. I'm so dumb! :D

You can't hide from us, Severian. We all know now about the cute girl named Amy who's been going to your church.
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Re: Distractions During Liturgy
« Reply #78 on: October 07, 2012, 09:00:12 PM »
That cantor really knows his stuff - all the tones, all the irmosi. Wow.

That cantor, what a jerk, he thinks he's the lead act. What a show-off.


Shouldn't that be irmoi?  :police:
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Offline LBK

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Re: Distractions During Liturgy
« Reply #79 on: October 08, 2012, 01:17:22 AM »
That cantor really knows his stuff - all the tones, all the irmosi. Wow.

That cantor, what a jerk, he thinks he's the lead act. What a show-off.


Shouldn't that be irmoi?  :police:

The Greek is eirmoi, the Slavonic is irmosi. Podkarpatska is a Slav.  :angel:
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

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Re: Distractions During Liturgy
« Reply #80 on: October 08, 2012, 07:09:29 AM »
Psalms 37 and the paragraph 37:4 is a usefull reminder. I would say that also Psalms 119:9 is another good reminder.
And i know how hard it is not to let your eyes wander, i try to look at what the priest(s) are doing and staring at Christ instad
and pray quietly for help.
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Re: Distractions During Liturgy
« Reply #81 on: October 08, 2012, 07:45:07 AM »
That cantor really knows his stuff - all the tones, all the irmosi. Wow.

That cantor, what a jerk, he thinks he's the lead act. What a show-off.


Shouldn't that be irmoi?  :police:

The Greek is eirmoi, the Slavonic is irmosi. Podkarpatska is a Slav.  :angel:

Thanks!  ;)

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Re: Distractions During Liturgy
« Reply #82 on: October 08, 2012, 07:46:17 AM »
That cantor really knows his stuff - all the tones, all the irmosi. Wow.

That cantor, what a jerk, he thinks he's the lead act. What a show-off.


Shouldn't that be irmoi?  :police:

The Greek is eirmoi, the Slavonic is irmosi. Podkarpatska is a Slav.  :angel:

Thanks!  ;)

Happy to help.  :-*
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Re: Distractions During Liturgy
« Reply #83 on: October 08, 2012, 08:16:37 AM »
Not so seriously, but also not so jokingly:

People being late and going through all the church to kiss the icon. Especially if this late person is a handsome man - for one moment he's in the centre of action.

People walking through the church to kiss an icon, light/put out a candle etc. (well, in reality I find it very "eastern", but it's annoying for my RC friends and family)

Me standing almost enter Liturgy - I'm too active to be all the time in one position

Many people - it's too close and I can't make bows

Few people - where are they? They're supposed to attend Liturgy
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Re: Distractions During Liturgy
« Reply #84 on: October 08, 2012, 09:50:46 AM »
Why admire the woman when you should be worshiping the One who created her? Seems like a rather significant step down...turn your thoughts away from earthly things, let us attend, etc., etc.

Just think: Just like God created this lady, God has also created someone (maybe several, seeing as how He loves to give us many chances) who will drive you wild at APPROPRIATE times (i.e., not during the liturgy), but that is likely largely contingent on your earning her favor by acting right...step one: not being the cartoon wolf while she's there trying to worship God, too.

The ball is really in your court, to say nothing of how she dresses (which is her own issue whether it causes you to think lustful things or not). Consider it a challenge from God to look her in the eyes when you talk to her, and if you sense your mind wandering to places it shouldn't go, to take the appropriate steps to nip that thought in the bud before you get all worked up. The passions are just like ants: A single one spotted wandering where it shouldn't be is probably a sign that there are many more where that came from, waiting for their moment to get in. Do what you need to do to keep yourself clean.

Sorry, bro, but if the skirt is short enough my eyes are going to wander.  I can physically see her, not the one who created her.  Perhaps we could settle on a middle ground?  If I want to see underdressed broads I know where the strip joints are and I have a high speed internet connection.  Perhaps at church they could dress close to decently?
Das ist des Jägers Ehrenschild, daß er beschützt und hegt sein Wild, weidmännisch jagt, wie sich’s gehört, den Schöpfer im Geschöpfe ehrt.

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Re: Distractions During Liturgy
« Reply #85 on: October 08, 2012, 09:58:02 AM »
That cantor really knows his stuff - all the tones, all the irmosi. Wow.

That cantor, what a jerk, he thinks he's the lead act. What a show-off.


That woman with the really beautiful voice up in the choir with the bad knees who doesn't rejoin the choir after communion - I wish she'd go back up there after communion so she wouldn't "show-boat" behind me with that terrible voice! 

(I've actually heard this)
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Re: Distractions During Liturgy
« Reply #86 on: October 08, 2012, 10:01:52 AM »
That cantor really knows his stuff - all the tones, all the irmosi. Wow.

That cantor, what a jerk, he thinks he's the lead act. What a show-off.


Shouldn't that be irmoi?  :police:

The Greek is eirmoi, the Slavonic is irmosi. Podkarpatska is a Slav.  :angel:

Thanks!  ;)

Happy to help.  :-*

And for our latest contribution-

That guy visiting from an OCA/ROCOR/ACROD parish- Irmosi? Learn the Hellenic terms pal.

That guy visiting from a GOA/Antiochian parish- Orthros? Be glad we're doing Matins instead of the Hours at all!
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Re: Distractions During Liturgy
« Reply #87 on: October 08, 2012, 10:04:57 AM »
Stilettos and marble/hardwood floors

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Re: Distractions During Liturgy
« Reply #88 on: October 08, 2012, 10:09:49 AM »
Quote
Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart. And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell. And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
Matthew 5:27-30 (KJV)

Note that Jesus does not say anything about the woman or what she is wearing.  It's all about the person doing the looking because as He says elsewhere, "[n]ot that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man." (Matthew 15:11 (KJV)).

If looking at a woman lustfully makes one an adulterer, it also makes one a rapist.  And, as we know, women who dress even the slightest bit provocatively deserve to be raped, right?

I give the OP a really hard time (because I think he deserves it, honestly) but in this case, I'm not trying to do so.    Every. Single. Priest. who has counselled me on my own sins of a sexual nature has told me repeatedly, "Look somewhere else.  Occupy your mind with something else.  Don't fight the temptation head on, but put your thoughts wholly elsewhere."  It's not going to happen overnight.  You will fail and it's going to seemingly make things worse.  Be patient.  Your struggle is pleasing to God provided it is an honest one.  It's going to suck really hard because you're quite hormonal.  

But don't blame this woman for your faults.  You're just compounding your own failings.  I speak from experience.  
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Offline converted viking

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Re: Distractions During Liturgy
« Reply #89 on: October 08, 2012, 10:24:57 AM »
Kids are a big distraction when they are too rambunctious, especially to the Catholic priest who has pedophile tendencies . :angel:


Cheap shot !!  Knock it off !!!  As I have said before, not all RC priests are pedophiles.  I am sure we Orthodox have had problems with this issue as well as all other denominations.  Are you so clueless that you have to get a dig in like this? 

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Re: Distractions During Liturgy
« Reply #90 on: October 08, 2012, 10:26:31 AM »
Priest says nothing to girl-in-miniskirt- Doesn't he realize he's supposed to take a moral stand? I'm writing the bishop!

Priest chastises girl-in-miniskirt- Who does he think he is, the pope? I'm writing the bishop!
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Re: Distractions During Liturgy
« Reply #91 on: October 08, 2012, 11:31:24 AM »
Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!


Maybe some men should just grow up and own up to their own weaknesses with out demonizing or vilifying women?

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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Re: Distractions During Liturgy
« Reply #92 on: October 08, 2012, 11:38:13 AM »
Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!


Maybe some men should just grow up and own up to their own weaknesses with out demonizing or vilifying women?

stay blessed,
habte selassie

What? And violate ancient tradition? Genesis 3:12, my friend.
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Re: Distractions During Liturgy
« Reply #93 on: October 08, 2012, 11:39:59 AM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!




Maybe some men should just grow up and own up to their own weaknesses with out demonizing or vilifying women?

stay blessed,
habte selassie

What? And violate ancient tradition? Genesis 3:12, my friend.

Adam and Eve
=


stay blessed,
habte selassie
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Offline nrse

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Re: Distractions During Liturgy
« Reply #94 on: October 08, 2012, 11:48:25 AM »
James, i agree w Quiet Morning- i too say the Jesus Prayer when distracted as advised by my Priest....also, if you can stand between the altar and this woman so that your back is to her, that may help as well...i am easily distracted so it helps me to stand close to the wall as far up front as possible...then i am not distracted by others and i don't feel self conscious re myself since i am like a "wall flower"...so- not distracted by self or others, it is easier to focus on the One whom liturgy is all about ;)
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Re: Distractions During Liturgy
« Reply #95 on: October 08, 2012, 12:46:14 PM »
Kids are a big distraction when they are too rambunctious, especially to the Catholic priest who has pedophile tendencies . :angel:


Cheap shot !!  Knock it off !!!  As I have said before, not all RC priests are pedophiles.  I am sure we Orthodox have had problems with this issue as well as all other denominations.  Are you so clueless that you have to get a dig in like this? 

Seraphim
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Re: Distractions During Liturgy
« Reply #96 on: October 08, 2012, 08:50:31 PM »

I am really sorry about that tastless joke, I have no sense of humour sometimes I try to be funny and end up being distasteful.

I should have known better , but it was all over the news afew years back , it wasn't something I made up is all I am saying.

Never fear I wlll never do that again.
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Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: Distractions During Liturgy
« Reply #97 on: October 08, 2012, 11:06:49 PM »
That cantor really knows his stuff - all the tones, all the irmosi. Wow.

That cantor, what a jerk, he thinks he's the lead act. What a show-off.


Shouldn't that be irmoi?  :police:

The Greek is eirmoi, the Slavonic is irmosi. Podkarpatska is a Slav.  :angel:

Shall we excuse the Slavs? :)
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Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: Distractions During Liturgy
« Reply #98 on: October 08, 2012, 11:09:13 PM »
Why admire the woman when you should be worshiping the One who created her? Seems like a rather significant step down...turn your thoughts away from earthly things, let us attend, etc., etc.

Just think: Just like God created this lady, God has also created someone (maybe several, seeing as how He loves to give us many chances) who will drive you wild at APPROPRIATE times (i.e., not during the liturgy), but that is likely largely contingent on your earning her favor by acting right...step one: not being the cartoon wolf while she's there trying to worship God, too.

The ball is really in your court, to say nothing of how she dresses (which is her own issue whether it causes you to think lustful things or not). Consider it a challenge from God to look her in the eyes when you talk to her, and if you sense your mind wandering to places it shouldn't go, to take the appropriate steps to nip that thought in the bud before you get all worked up. The passions are just like ants: A single one spotted wandering where it shouldn't be is probably a sign that there are many more where that came from, waiting for their moment to get in. Do what you need to do to keep yourself clean.

Sorry, bro, but if the skirt is short enough my eyes are going to wander.  I can physically see her, not the one who created her.  Perhaps we could settle on a middle ground?  If I want to see underdressed broads I know where the strip joints are and I have a high speed internet connection.  Perhaps at church they could dress close to decently?

Indeed. We all need to be considerate as regards modesty. We dress modestly for others, but also out of respect for ourselves.
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Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: Distractions During Liturgy
« Reply #99 on: October 08, 2012, 11:11:25 PM »
Stilettos and marble/hardwood floors

"Hunny, if God had meant you to walk like a chicken, he would've given you feathers."

"Oh, wait, you're wearing feathers."

"OMG, you're not a woman at all. Never mind."
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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Distractions During Liturgy
« Reply #100 on: October 08, 2012, 11:53:34 PM »
So why have women wear anything at all? Let them come to Church naked, and read the scriptures while doing a pole dance. I mean, lust is our problem not theirs. Doesn't matter how they dress or how they act. The sin is in the eye of the beholder not in the actions or attire of those that are beheld.  But yeah, I realize that my calls for modesty make me no different than Osama Bin Laden. ::)


Selam

I know you were being sarcastic, but I have heard Orthodox women talking amongst themselves about dressing modestly because "they would not want to aid another to fall into sin".  The scriptures command women to be modest as well.
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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Distractions During Liturgy
« Reply #101 on: October 09, 2012, 12:01:04 AM »
On this one I would not be specific to your priest of who it is.  I would tell him of your distractions from immodestly dressed parishoners.  The scriptures and the church teach of modesty.  This is something your priest can handle VIA bulletin.

Exactly. This sums it up for me.
Ya know, Gebre, I find quite disturbing how so many of your posts on this matter focus on what the woman is wearing while so few say anything about why you let your eyes wander in the first place.

I know you were addressing him... I personally blame both.

A woman KNOWS when she is wearing something to show off herself.  Cleavage, tight clothes, etc.  Men, their eyes will wander which of course, is lust.   The Orthodox woman that would purposely wear something to show herself off is aiding in causing her brother to fall into sin.  She would also be disobeying the scriptures.   In many churches as well as monasteries there is a dress code.   Many times, no dresses above the mid-shin level, no low cut shirts, no tight clothing etc.   

But you are right, it is a guy's fault for "wandering".    But she also purposely is leaving out that temptation to cause another to fall.  It's wrong for her to do that.
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Re: Distractions During Liturgy
« Reply #102 on: October 09, 2012, 02:00:55 AM »
Quote
Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart. And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell. And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
Matthew 5:27-30 (KJV)

Note that Jesus does not say anything about the woman or what she is wearing.  It's all about the person doing the looking because as He says elsewhere, "[n]ot that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man." (Matthew 15:11 (KJV)).

If looking at a woman lustfully makes one an adulterer, it also makes one a rapist.  And, as we know, women who dress even the slightest bit provocatively deserve to be raped, right?

I give the OP a really hard time (because I think he deserves it, honestly) but in this case, I'm not trying to do so.    Every. Single. Priest. who has counselled me on my own sins of a sexual nature has told me repeatedly, "Look somewhere else.  Occupy your mind with something else.  Don't fight the temptation head on, but put your thoughts wholly elsewhere."  It's not going to happen overnight.  You will fail and it's going to seemingly make things worse.  Be patient.  Your struggle is pleasing to God provided it is an honest one.  It's going to suck really hard because you're quite hormonal.  

But don't blame this woman for your faults.  You're just compounding your own failings.  I speak from experience.  

Even being an actual adulterer doesn't make one a rapist.  :P
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Re: Distractions During Liturgy
« Reply #103 on: October 09, 2012, 02:07:56 AM »
Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!


Maybe some men should just grow up and own up to their own weaknesses with out demonizing or vilifying women?

stay blessed,
habte selassie

It's not so much a matter of vilifying so much as giving credit where it is due. I mean, I have lucifer and legions of fallen angels to tempt me and they do a hell (heh) of a job at it!  I don't need soiled doves to try and one up them. 
Das ist des Jägers Ehrenschild, daß er beschützt und hegt sein Wild, weidmännisch jagt, wie sich’s gehört, den Schöpfer im Geschöpfe ehrt.

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Re: Distractions During Liturgy
« Reply #104 on: October 09, 2012, 02:38:56 AM »
Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!


Maybe some men should just grow up and own up to their own weaknesses with out demonizing or vilifying women?

stay blessed,
habte selassie

It's not so much a matter of vilifying so much as giving credit where it is due. I mean, I have lucifer and legions of fallen angels to tempt me and they do a hell (heh) of a job at it!  I don't need soiled doves to try and one up them. 

Right, that's the point. And it seems clear from examples in Scripture that lust and temptation is a two way street. Bathsheba shared guilt along with King David. Delilah was also guilty with Samson. And Heroditus and her daughter were no more innocent that Herod. So it seems to me a good thing that a man wishes not to be bombarded with lustful displays during the Divine Liturgy. It's easy to simply tell him, "Well then, don't look." Apparrently some of you all are much more righteous than the rest of us. We don't want to look, but we are weak and we probably will. We bring enough mental and emotional distractions with us to Church as it is. Is it really too much to ask that women dress modestly for an hour a two a week? Gosh.


Selam
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Offline HabteSelassie

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Re: Distractions During Liturgy
« Reply #105 on: October 09, 2012, 02:13:06 PM »
Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!


We bring enough mental and emotional distractions with us to Church as it is. Is it really too much to ask that women dress modestly for an hour a two a week? Gosh.


What is your definition of modesty exactly? I mean come off it brothers, these ladies are faithfully entering into an Orthodox Church to stand in prayer with the rest of us, so what is the beef? Do we honestly think they are wearing their club outfits? They are dressed as professionally as ladies dress at work, and yes, there is sometimes some cleavage or calf, but are we that prudish that we men can't keep our minds out of the gutter simply because there was a little skin? Brother, have you seen all the traditional dresses that Ethiopian ladies wear to Church? They would greatly offend the Westboro Baptist crowd, and yet these are straight traditional! The example is that we men need to be on OUR best behavior, and like the Anaphora of Our Lord in the Ethiopian Tradition says, "God is looking, let no one notice the sins of their neighbors."




Maybe some men should just grow up and own up to their own weaknesses with out demonizing or vilifying women?


It's not so much a matter of vilifying so much as giving credit where it is due. I mean, I have lucifer and legions of fallen angels to tempt me and they do a hell (heh) of a job at it!  I don't need soiled doves to try and one up them.  

You aren't giving credit where credit is due, you are scapegoatiing your own internal problems onto other people.  Why do you assume that if a women isn't wearing something your grandmother would wear that she is a soiled dove? Again, what is your issues with your sexuality that you have to project that onto the entire world let alone women?  We are not talking about women wearing bikinis into the parish, we are talking about matters of taste.  We should know point blank that if a woman is taking the time and effort to stand and pray the Divine Liturgy in an Orthodox Church, that she is hardly some sexual venom yielding Sucubus.  So again, I will reiterate that if men like ourselves can't keep our wandering eyes on the Icons during Liturgy, that remains entirely OUR OWN problem, not theirs.  If you want the women in your parish to change the way they dress, sounds like you have a lifetime of work ahead of you to go through the processes of Ordination, so you can become the local Bishop, and then brow beat such ladies from the pulpit, but in the meantime when you're standing in the back with the rest of us laity folks, keep your eyes on the prize and not on the anatomy of the attractive ladies praying around you.  If anything, be grateful attractive ladies are still coming to Church faithfully in the first place, caustic attitudes about the way they  are dressing may just push them away, and you'll get your wish, a Church full of elderly ladies wrapped up from head to toe in prayer shawls and white garments  :angel:

stay blessed,
habte selassie
« Last Edit: October 09, 2012, 02:17:40 PM by HabteSelassie »
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Offline vamrat

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Re: Distractions During Liturgy
« Reply #106 on: October 09, 2012, 02:43:32 PM »



Maybe some men should just grow up and own up to their own weaknesses with out demonizing or vilifying women?


It's not so much a matter of vilifying so much as giving credit where it is due. I mean, I have lucifer and legions of fallen angels to tempt me and they do a hell (heh) of a job at it!  I don't need soiled doves to try and one up them.  

You aren't giving credit where credit is due, you are scapegoatiing your own internal problems onto other people.  Why do you assume that if a women isn't wearing something your grandmother would wear that she is a soiled dove? Again, what is your issues with your sexuality that you have to project that onto the entire world let alone women?  We are not talking about women wearing bikinis into the parish, we are talking about matters of taste.  We should know point blank that if a woman is taking the time and effort to stand and pray the Divine Liturgy in an Orthodox Church, that she is hardly some sexual venom yielding Sucubus.  So again, I will reiterate that if men like ourselves can't keep our wandering eyes on the Icons during Liturgy, that remains entirely OUR OWN problem, not theirs.  If you want the women in your parish to change the way they dress, sounds like you have a lifetime of work ahead of you to go through the processes of Ordination, so you can become the local Bishop, and then brow beat such ladies from the pulpit, but in the meantime when you're standing in the back with the rest of us laity folks, keep your eyes on the prize and not on the anatomy of the attractive ladies praying around you.  If anything, be grateful attractive ladies are still coming to Church faithfully in the first place, caustic attitudes about the way they  are dressing may just push them away, and you'll get your wish, a Church full of elderly ladies wrapped up from head to toe in prayer shawls and white garments  :angel:

stay blessed,
habte selassie

There was a point and you missed it by a mile...

First off, I am no stranger to the naked female form.  Anything that would cause me to raise an eyebrow in church would be a class IV felony, so not really an issue.  Besides, all the regulars at my Church dress very nicely.  Attractive, yet modest.  And when the Paschativities come twice a year their short skirts and hooker heels are more than made up for by the facial disfigurement they opt for by covering themselves in pounds of makeup.  Honestly, a few of these girls would be like lusting after a circus clown.  So, this is not an issue with me.  If you have straying eyes then come off your sanctimonious horse, and LISTEN.  My eyes don't stray, they go exactly where I tell them to.

What I was saying was, we have lucifer and the demons to tempt us.  That is their role in this world.  They are here to drag us from the ladder to Heaven, kicking and screaming as we fall headlong into the abyss where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth.  Our duty as Christians is to MINISTER to our brothers and sisters.  If something leads your brother into sin, he is weaker than you.  Is that any reason to gloat?  No.  For the demon of pride is every bit as noxious and malodorous to the Lord as the lust of your brother is.  We should minister to our brothers and sisters.  If dressing a certain way causes some to fall, then DON'T DO IT.  Would you drink whiskey around an alcoholic?  Would you flaunt wealth in front of a klepto?  Would you give a .38 to a psycopath?  Why then would you tempt someone who has natural human emotions and the honesty to admit it by dressing provocatively?

Or are you not your brother's keeper?
Das ist des Jägers Ehrenschild, daß er beschützt und hegt sein Wild, weidmännisch jagt, wie sich’s gehört, den Schöpfer im Geschöpfe ehrt.

Offline HabteSelassie

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Re: Distractions During Liturgy
« Reply #107 on: October 09, 2012, 02:56:00 PM »
Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!



There was a point and you missed it by a mile...

First off, I am no stranger to the naked female form.  Anything that would cause me to raise an eyebrow in church would be a class IV felony, so not really an issue.  Besides, all the regulars at my Church dress very nicely.  Attractive, yet modest.  And when the Paschativities come twice a year their short skirts and hooker heels are more than made up for by the facial disfigurement they opt for by covering themselves in pounds of makeup.  Honestly, a few of these girls would be like lusting after a circus clown.  So, this is not an issue with me.  If you have straying eyes then come off your sanctimonious horse, and LISTEN.  My eyes don't stray, they go exactly where I tell them to.

What I was saying was, we have lucifer and the demons to tempt us.  That is their role in this world.  They are here to drag us from the ladder to Heaven, kicking and screaming as we fall headlong into the abyss where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth.  Our duty as Christians is to MINISTER to our brothers and sisters.  If something leads your brother into sin, he is weaker than you.  Is that any reason to gloat?  No.  For the demon of pride is every bit as noxious and malodorous to the Lord as the lust of your brother is.  We should minister to our brothers and sisters.  If dressing a certain way causes some to fall, then DON'T DO IT.  Would you drink whiskey around an alcoholic?  Would you flaunt wealth in front of a klepto?  Would you give a .38 to a psycopath?  Why then would you tempt someone who has natural human emotions and the honesty to admit it by dressing provocatively?

Or are you not your brother's keeper?

Excuse me, no one is being sanctimonious or gloating here, but your tone and demeaning choice of words to describe women you disagree with is what I was offended by.  Further, since this is mostly men on this forum and in this thread, you are speaking too freely.  didn't miss any point by any mile, I can thread the needle like I was Brett Farve yo ;)

We can't blame our issues with internal sins on the Devil or women, but ourselves, period.

The definition of provocative fluctuates, and as we mentioned before, it is the man, not the manner of dressing.  A man can be tempted by a woman wrapped up like a mummy if so inclined. If these women are not being chased up out of the Church by a crowd with pitchforks, chances are the rest of parish doesn't find their manner of dress provocative at all!! We are talking about ways of dressing, and there are no "hookers" in the Church, and even if there were, its not YOUR place or MINE to judge them, and if their appearance causes any shortcomings in ourselves (this includes myself) then that is OUR own internal problem to deal with.  To judge those women isn't our place or our business.


stay blessed,
habte selassie
« Last Edit: October 09, 2012, 03:06:12 PM by HabteSelassie »
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Offline sheenj

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Re: Distractions During Liturgy
« Reply #108 on: October 09, 2012, 03:04:41 PM »



Maybe some men should just grow up and own up to their own weaknesses with out demonizing or vilifying women?


It's not so much a matter of vilifying so much as giving credit where it is due. I mean, I have lucifer and legions of fallen angels to tempt me and they do a hell (heh) of a job at it!  I don't need soiled doves to try and one up them.  

You aren't giving credit where credit is due, you are scapegoatiing your own internal problems onto other people.  Why do you assume that if a women isn't wearing something your grandmother would wear that she is a soiled dove? Again, what is your issues with your sexuality that you have to project that onto the entire world let alone women?  We are not talking about women wearing bikinis into the parish, we are talking about matters of taste.  We should know point blank that if a woman is taking the time and effort to stand and pray the Divine Liturgy in an Orthodox Church, that she is hardly some sexual venom yielding Sucubus.  So again, I will reiterate that if men like ourselves can't keep our wandering eyes on the Icons during Liturgy, that remains entirely OUR OWN problem, not theirs.  If you want the women in your parish to change the way they dress, sounds like you have a lifetime of work ahead of you to go through the processes of Ordination, so you can become the local Bishop, and then brow beat such ladies from the pulpit, but in the meantime when you're standing in the back with the rest of us laity folks, keep your eyes on the prize and not on the anatomy of the attractive ladies praying around you.  If anything, be grateful attractive ladies are still coming to Church faithfully in the first place, caustic attitudes about the way they  are dressing may just push them away, and you'll get your wish, a Church full of elderly ladies wrapped up from head to toe in prayer shawls and white garments  :angel:

stay blessed,
habte selassie

There was a point and you missed it by a mile...

First off, I am no stranger to the naked female form.  Anything that would cause me to raise an eyebrow in church would be a class IV felony, so not really an issue.  Besides, all the regulars at my Church dress very nicely.  Attractive, yet modest.  And when the Paschativities come twice a year their short skirts and hooker heels are more than made up for by the facial disfigurement they opt for by covering themselves in pounds of makeup.  Honestly, a few of these girls would be like lusting after a circus clown.  So, this is not an issue with me.  If you have straying eyes then come off your sanctimonious horse, and LISTEN.  My eyes don't stray, they go exactly where I tell them to.

What I was saying was, we have lucifer and the demons to tempt us.  That is their role in this world.  They are here to drag us from the ladder to Heaven, kicking and screaming as we fall headlong into the abyss where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth.  Our duty as Christians is to MINISTER to our brothers and sisters.  If something leads your brother into sin, he is weaker than you.  Is that any reason to gloat?  No.  For the demon of pride is every bit as noxious and malodorous to the Lord as the lust of your brother is.  We should minister to our brothers and sisters.  If dressing a certain way causes some to fall, then DON'T DO IT.  Would you drink whiskey around an alcoholic?  Would you flaunt wealth in front of a klepto?  Would you give a .38 to a psycopath?  Why then would you tempt someone who has natural human emotions and the honesty to admit it by dressing provocatively?

Or are you not your brother's keeper?

What about attractive women, are they a provocation to you? Should all attractive women come to church with their faces wrapped up in muslin just because you don't want to exercise self control?

Offline vamrat

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Re: Distractions During Liturgy
« Reply #109 on: October 09, 2012, 03:33:21 PM »
Ok, you guys are just being silly now.  I think that I am being made the brunt of some sick joke.  Ha, lulz.

I will just point out what I believe one more time and leave it at that.  I believe that women should dress themselves modestly and sensibly in decent clothes.  Not with fancy hair or lots of jewelry and expensive threads.  I’d rather they flaunt their good deeds, like religious women would.

As for the slut, she carries a snare and spreads her net everywhere, even in church.  They might say that they never caused other to sin.  They might not have done so by their words, but their dress and manner are far more dangerous than even what she says.  When you make someone sin in their heart how are you innocent?  Tell me, who is judged, the one who drinks the poison or the one who concocted it?  These women prepare an abominable cup, they have served the strychnine, and are more abominable than even those who poison the body.  They don’t just kill the man but murder his very soul!  And even worse, it isn’t enemies that they are killing, they don’t do this because they have to, they are not avenging some wrong, but only out of foolish vanity and pride.

I’m sorry my brothers, but that evil I cannot support, even if it means not being politically correct.
Das ist des Jägers Ehrenschild, daß er beschützt und hegt sein Wild, weidmännisch jagt, wie sich’s gehört, den Schöpfer im Geschöpfe ehrt.

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Re: Distractions During Liturgy
« Reply #110 on: October 09, 2012, 05:13:29 PM »

You have a point.  Women ARE to dress modestly...not only in order to not distract the men, but, for their own sense of self...humility is to be cherished over vain glory.

However, having said that...men ought to be modest, as well.

It was mentioned women shouldn't bejewel themselves, wear fancy hairdos, or fancy clothes to draw attention to themselves.

What about the men who put mouse in their hair and gel it up?  Or wear very strong cologne, or shiny cuff links, and shoes that click when they walk?  While these things may not cause women to faint from desire....it is still a distraction.

If women are to dress drab and modest, so, should the men.  :)

Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
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Re: Distractions During Liturgy
« Reply #111 on: October 09, 2012, 05:15:52 PM »

You have a point.  Women ARE to dress modestly...not only in order to not distract the men, but, for their own sense of self...humility is to be cherished over vain glory.

However, having said that...men ought to be modest, as well.

It was mentioned women shouldn't bejewel themselves, wear fancy hairdos, or fancy clothes to draw attention to themselves.

What about the men who put mouse in their hair and gel it up?  Or wear very strong cologne, or shiny cuff links, and shoes that click when they walk?  While these things may not cause women to faint from desire....it is still a distraction.

If women are to dress drab and modest, so, should the men.  :)



Agreed.  As much of a peacock as I can be at times, when it's time to go to church, the old gray suit/sober tie combo comes out. 
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Re: Distractions During Liturgy
« Reply #112 on: October 09, 2012, 05:24:54 PM »

You have a point.  Women ARE to dress modestly...not only in order to not distract the men, but, for their own sense of self...humility is to be cherished over vain glory.

However, having said that...men ought to be modest, as well.

It was mentioned women shouldn't bejewel themselves, wear fancy hairdos, or fancy clothes to draw attention to themselves.

What about the men who put mouse in their hair and gel it up?  Or wear very strong cologne, or shiny cuff links, and shoes that click when they walk?  While these things may not cause women to faint from desire....it is still a distraction.

If women are to dress drab and modest, so, should the men.  :)



Agreed.  As much of a peacock as I can be at times, when it's time to go to church, the old gray suit/sober tie combo comes out. 


I will admit to a putting a touch of something in my hair, though, to look presentable. The Florida humidity makes me look more appropriate to a clown mass than the Liturgy otherwise.
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Offline vamrat

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Re: Distractions During Liturgy
« Reply #113 on: October 09, 2012, 05:53:45 PM »

You have a point.  Women ARE to dress modestly...not only in order to not distract the men, but, for their own sense of self...humility is to be cherished over vain glory.

However, having said that...men ought to be modest, as well.

It was mentioned women shouldn't bejewel themselves, wear fancy hairdos, or fancy clothes to draw attention to themselves.

What about the men who put mouse in their hair and gel it up?  Or wear very strong cologne, or shiny cuff links, and shoes that click when they walk?  While these things may not cause women to faint from desire....it is still a distraction.

If women are to dress drab and modest, so, should the men.  :)



Will respond more in depth but later but for the most part agreed.

I would like to point out that I am a little bit of a hypocrite in this regard.   :-[  I wear a white dress at church with gold threadwork and glittery gold crosses all over it...but it does go down past my calves.  It's pretty shiny!
Das ist des Jägers Ehrenschild, daß er beschützt und hegt sein Wild, weidmännisch jagt, wie sich’s gehört, den Schöpfer im Geschöpfe ehrt.

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Re: Distractions During Liturgy
« Reply #114 on: October 09, 2012, 06:15:00 PM »

You have a point.  Women ARE to dress modestly...not only in order to not distract the men, but, for their own sense of self...humility is to be cherished over vain glory.

However, having said that...men ought to be modest, as well.

It was mentioned women shouldn't bejewel themselves, wear fancy hairdos, or fancy clothes to draw attention to themselves.

What about the men who put mouse in their hair and gel it up?  Or wear very strong cologne, or shiny cuff links, and shoes that click when they walk?  While these things may not cause women to faint from desire....it is still a distraction.

If women are to dress drab and modest, so, should the men.  :)



Will respond more in depth but later but for the most part agreed.

I would like to point out that I am a little bit of a hypocrite in this regard.   :-[  I wear a white dress at church with gold threadwork and glittery gold crosses all over it...but it does go down past my calves.  It's pretty shiny!

LOL!  I didn't know you were a bishop!  ;)
Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
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Re: Distractions During Liturgy
« Reply #115 on: October 09, 2012, 07:36:26 PM »

You have a point.  Women ARE to dress modestly...not only in order to not distract the men, but, for their own sense of self...humility is to be cherished over vain glory.

However, having said that...men ought to be modest, as well.

It was mentioned women shouldn't bejewel themselves, wear fancy hairdos, or fancy clothes to draw attention to themselves.

What about the men who put mouse in their hair and gel it up?  Or wear very strong cologne, or shiny cuff links, and shoes that click when they walk?  While these things may not cause women to faint from desire....it is still a distraction.

If women are to dress drab and modest, so, should the men.  :)



Agreed.  As much of a peacock as I can be at times, when it's time to go to church, the old gray suit/sober tie combo comes out. 


I will admit to a putting a touch of something in my hair, though, to look presentable. The Florida humidity makes me look more appropriate to a clown mass than the Liturgy otherwise.

I don't live in Florida, but with hair like mine, you have to gel it. I doubt there's anyone who can't pay attention because she's thinking "Hey, look at his hair!" though.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2012, 07:37:03 PM by OrthoNoob »
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Re: Distractions During Liturgy
« Reply #116 on: October 09, 2012, 11:16:00 PM »
Agreed.   The scriptures clearly tell us to dress modestly an without expensive clothing.   

No reason to show off, an Christians should not try to distract one another.

If the woman in the OP was immodestly dressed, I believe the priest should put out a "dress code" bulletin.
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Offline Michael36

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Re: Distractions During Liturgy
« Reply #117 on: October 11, 2012, 06:51:01 PM »
Is it really not the norm to allow females to read the Epistle?

Absolutely not. In Greek churches outside of the US it's extremely rare to even allow women to sing in church. Having a female epistle reader would absolutely unthinkable to most.

So is this a Greek issue? I've known of Antiochian and Russian churches having females reading the Epistle, albeit in the US, and I suppose non-US norms may be different.
This is true, the Antiochian parish where I live often has women reading the Epistle.

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Re: Distractions During Liturgy
« Reply #118 on: October 11, 2012, 07:35:26 PM »
Distractions during liturgy:





I ask you women to kindly keep your feet and hands covered. Thank you.

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Re: Distractions During Liturgy
« Reply #119 on: October 11, 2012, 10:38:00 PM »

How could we possibly make the sign of the Cross properly with gloved hands?

;)
Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
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Offline vamrat

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Re: Distractions During Liturgy
« Reply #120 on: October 11, 2012, 10:40:37 PM »
Distractions during liturgy:




I don't know about you but a marries woman's disembodied hand would distract and disturb the heck outta me.



BTW, Habte hasn't responded to my last post on the subject.  I wonder if he saw the trick I pulled.
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Re: Distractions During Liturgy
« Reply #121 on: October 12, 2012, 01:54:02 AM »
James, it helps me to pray the Jesus Prayer when I'm in Liturgy.  It also helps me to pray to the Holy Theotokos and ask for Her aid to keep my attention centered on Her Son. 
I'd advise him to talk to his spiritual father before doing that. I was told that for most of the liturgy the Jesus prayer is discouraged, as one should be focusing on the liturgy itself and the communal prayer. The monk who aids in liturgy at my church always puts aside his prayer rope during the service, which I assume means he is not saying the Jesus prayer, though he may be. I always assumed only monks of the Great Schema continued in their own prayer during Liturgy.

Like everyone else has said, talk to the priest.  :)
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