Author Topic: Subdeacons  (Read 6470 times)

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Offline katherineofdixie

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Re: Subdeacons
« Reply #45 on: December 05, 2012, 12:15:09 PM »
They are utterly useless.  done.   ;) ;D :P

We're the bishop's flunkies I was told. 

My husband refers to himself as a liturgical potted plant, or Chief Censer Holder.
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Offline Alpo

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Re: Subdeacons
« Reply #46 on: December 05, 2012, 01:40:57 PM »
You can't;
touch the altar or proskomedia table

In this part of the world altar servers can touch sacrifice table.

How recent that custom is?

Offline podkarpatska

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Re: Subdeacons
« Reply #47 on: December 05, 2012, 02:54:26 PM »
They are utterly useless.  done.   ;) ;D :P

We're the bishop's flunkies I was told.  

My husband refers to himself as a liturgical potted plant, or Chief Censer Holder.

My late father used to refer to sub-deacons as 'glorified (he didn't mean elevated to Sainthood either! lol) altar boys.' He would always chuckle at the memory of a headline in the Buffalo, NY paper following a huge pan-Orthodox liturgy during world war two which was attended by several thousand at the local concert hall during which several Greek altar boys were made sub-deacons by the then Archbishop Athenagoras. My dad was a newly ordained priest at the time and he remembered it well. The service was long, it was a hot summer Sunday and two of the about to be newly minted sub-deacons passed out at the critical moment. The headline ran: "Would-be Clerics Faint during Lengthy Service." Oh well....
« Last Edit: December 05, 2012, 02:54:59 PM by podkarpatska »

Offline Joseph Hazen

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Re: Subdeacons
« Reply #48 on: December 05, 2012, 04:43:58 PM »
I'm just a Reader (which I too refer to as "a glorified altar boy"  ;D ) but I pretty regularly set up the altar for feasts, ironing the altar linens and putting them on the altar and preparation tables, changing out the candles, etc. My priest told me he gave me an 'official' blessing to do so. I still, though, have to use only the Deacon doors. I just judge the straightness of the altar table cloth as best I can from the sides.


Offline mike

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Re: Subdeacons
« Reply #49 on: December 05, 2012, 05:45:14 PM »
You can't;
touch the altar or proskomedia table

In this part of the world altar servers can touch sacrifice table.

How recent that custom is?

No idea.

Offline Punch

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Re: Subdeacons
« Reply #50 on: December 05, 2012, 08:07:10 PM »
I'm just a Reader (which I too refer to as "a glorified altar boy"  ;D ) but I pretty regularly set up the altar for feasts, ironing the altar linens and putting them on the altar and preparation tables, changing out the candles, etc. My priest told me he gave me an 'official' blessing to do so. I still, though, have to use only the Deacon doors. I just judge the straightness of the altar table cloth as best I can from the sides.

Same here.  My priest tried to get me ordained as a Sub-deacon because I was doing all this anyway.  The Bishop tonsured me a Reader and did not seem to express any objection to me continuing what I was doing with the Priest's blessing.
I would be happy to agree with you, but then both of us would be wrong.

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Re: Subdeacons
« Reply #51 on: December 06, 2012, 02:36:32 AM »
I'm just a Reader (which I too refer to as "a glorified altar boy"  ;D ) but I pretty regularly set up the altar for feasts, ironing the altar linens and putting them on the altar and preparation tables, changing out the candles, etc. My priest told me he gave me an 'official' blessing to do so. I still, though, have to use only the Deacon doors. I just judge the straightness of the altar table cloth as best I can from the sides.



your priest may have "gave you his blessing" but try it in front of the bishop.  Just sayin' not everything priests let altar helpers do is exactly what the bishop would do.  And for priests its easy to get away with because the bishop doesn't come around that often to many parishes.

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Re: Subdeacons
« Reply #52 on: December 06, 2012, 02:40:41 AM »
I'm just a Reader (which I too refer to as "a glorified altar boy"  ;D ) but I pretty regularly set up the altar for feasts, ironing the altar linens and putting them on the altar and preparation tables, changing out the candles, etc. My priest told me he gave me an 'official' blessing to do so. I still, though, have to use only the Deacon doors. I just judge the straightness of the altar table cloth as best I can from the sides.

Same here.  My priest tried to get me ordained as a Sub-deacon because I was doing all this anyway.  The Bishop tonsured me a Reader and did not seem to express any objection to me continuing what I was doing with the Priest's blessing.
In my experience the bishop may have been cool that time but have him pop in and catch ya doing it. If you have spent time with a rule bending priest who makes up his own liturgics and introduces latin bits and pieces on purpose during certain feasts and makes up his own words when reading the gospel, singles out people not-so-subtly in his homilies, screams at congregants, talks down to them and then hides in the altar and on and on then you would understand my dislike for "rule bending".  I wish the bishop would stop by for a weekend.  One hasn't visited in my estimation since 1996.

Offline Antonis

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Re: Subdeacons
« Reply #53 on: December 28, 2012, 12:37:39 AM »
You can't;
touch the altar or proskomedia table

In this part of the world altar servers can touch sacrifice table.
Same here. I refill the oil in the lamps, place/remove icons from under the altar, etc.
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Offline Alpo

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Re: Subdeacons
« Reply #54 on: December 28, 2012, 03:49:09 AM »
They are utterly useless.  done.   ;) ;D :P

No, they aren't. Subdeaconhood can be included in Facebook and OC.net usernames and profiles. That makes posts a lot more convincing.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2012, 03:51:07 AM by Alpo »

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Re: Subdeacons
« Reply #55 on: December 28, 2012, 07:25:30 AM »
They are utterly useless.  done.   ;) ;D :P

No, they aren't. Subdeaconhood can be included in Facebook and OC.net usernames and profiles. That makes posts a lot more convincing.

 ;D
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Offline mike

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Re: Subdeacons
« Reply #56 on: December 28, 2012, 08:42:38 AM »
You can't;
touch the altar or proskomedia table

In this part of the world altar servers can touch sacrifice table.
Same here. I refill the oil in the lamps, place/remove icons from under the altar, etc.

It looks like I meant table of preparation...

Offline Marc1152

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Re: Subdeacons
« Reply #57 on: December 28, 2012, 11:36:41 AM »
You can't;
touch the altar or proskomedia table

In this part of the world altar servers can touch sacrifice table.
Same here. I refill the oil in the lamps, place/remove icons from under the altar, etc.

It looks like I meant table of preparation...

Right..In Rocor we can fill lamps and putter around the table of preparation but can not touch the Altar Table
Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm

Offline Antonis

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Re: Subdeacons
« Reply #58 on: December 28, 2012, 02:48:01 PM »
You can't;
touch the altar or proskomedia table

In this part of the world altar servers can touch sacrifice table.
Same here. I refill the oil in the lamps, place/remove icons from under the altar, etc.

It looks like I meant table of preparation...
Ah! I'm sorry! That as well, though the only real reason I've had to touch it was to place the zeon there.
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Offline Thomas

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Re: Subdeacons
« Reply #59 on: December 28, 2012, 04:53:51 PM »
I am a subdeacon and have served in both ROCOR and Antiochian parishes as I moved around the country.

A Subdeacon's primary role is to serve as an assistant to the Bishop when he visits a parish, to assist him in robing and disrobing, provide him the symbols of his office and assist him by  holding the Dikirion (Greek: δικήριον or δίκηρον) and trikirion (τρικήριον or τρίκηρον) or liturgical candlesticks, used by a bishop of the Eastern Orthodox Churches to bless the clergy and faithful. Our placement is so  the bishop need only hold out his hands and the candles are there for his use and  our hands are there to received them and return them to the altar. We also position and remove the orlet  or eagle carpet that the bishop stands on when he blesses the people or gives his sermon. Inside the altar the subdeacon is basically at the bishops beckon and call for what ever the bishop wishes to be done. After the service I usually follow the bishop and assist him during the visit by getting his food, holding down the flood of those seeking to crush him as they seek his blessing etc. In ROCOR , I was assigned a retired bishop to assist  at Liturgies that he was present in but not serving. As many  Bishops are elderly, often the subdeacon assists them up and down stairs by offering them a steady arm or a hand and assures that they do not trip or fall injuring themselves.

When the bishop is not present I serve as a senior altar service, train new altar boys, monitor  the behavior of the boys behind the altar to assure respect and humble behavior is exhibited during the liturgical services. After wards I assist in the clean up of the Holy place assuring dust and candle spills are taken care of properly. At the end of the service I lead the prayers after communion for the congregation (a pious practice peculiar to my current parish). I also am the Catechumen Director in my parish and assist the inquirers and catechumen in meeting requirements that will lead to their baptism/chrismation.


« Last Edit: December 29, 2012, 11:41:51 PM by Thomas »
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Offline serb1389

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Re: Subdeacons
« Reply #60 on: December 28, 2012, 08:44:06 PM »
They are utterly useless.  done.   ;) ;D :P

No, they aren't. Subdeaconhood can be included in Facebook and OC.net usernames and profiles. That makes posts a lot more convincing.

whatever helps you sleep at night.   ;) ;D
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Offline Dominika

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Re: Subdeacons
« Reply #61 on: December 02, 2013, 01:37:31 PM »
Altar serves wearing subdeacon's vestment ??? And he's so little guy...



« Last Edit: December 02, 2013, 01:38:31 PM by Dominika »
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Offline podkarpatska

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Re: Subdeacons
« Reply #62 on: December 02, 2013, 02:01:54 PM »
^ Ha ha...I've written about the boys fainting in 1944 at a pan-Orthodox Liturgy my dad participated in at Buffalo, NY. The headline read ' Would be Clerics Faint during four hour service.'   :)

Offline mike

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Re: Subdeacons
« Reply #63 on: December 02, 2013, 02:04:33 PM »
LOL.

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Subdeacons
« Reply #64 on: December 02, 2013, 07:17:54 PM »
Altar serves wearing subdeacon's vestment ??? And he's so little guy...



I'm more curious about the chain the deacon is wearing over his vestments...
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Offline mike

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Re: Subdeacons
« Reply #65 on: December 02, 2013, 07:23:37 PM »
I'm more curious about the chain the deacon is wearing over his vestments...

LOL

Panagia?

Offline frjohnmorris

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Re: Subdeacons
« Reply #66 on: December 08, 2013, 02:55:08 AM »
From how I understand it, traditionally there isn't an altar boy role. Rather, altar boys are assumed to be readers/subdeacons in training.

I know in the Antiochian parish I visit every so often, their altar boys are all dressed as subdeacons. However, their Bishop ordains some of them and allows them to get married after.

Yet in the OCA, or at least under our Bishop, and traditionally, you must be married prior to being made a subdeacon.

If there is just one subdeacon among several altar servers, he may act as sacristan.

The only difference between the vestments of an altar server and a sub-deacon is that the sub-deacon crosses his orarion over his chest. An altar server wears is straight, so what you thought were sub-deacons were probably altar servers. However, they are still blessed by the Bishop to the minor order of candle bearer.

Offline frjohnmorris

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Re: Subdeacons
« Reply #67 on: December 08, 2013, 04:05:44 AM »
They are utterly useless.  done.   ;) ;D :P

We may be the only Orthodox who do it, but a sub-deacon can chant the Great Litany and the two Little Litanies during the Divine Liturgy. It is always a very good idea to have a sub-deacon or other adult in the Altar to watch the Altar Boys and make them behave.

Offline mike

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Re: Subdeacons
« Reply #68 on: December 08, 2013, 11:05:45 AM »
The only difference between the vestments of an altar server and a sub-deacon is that the sub-deacon crosses his orarion over his chest. An altar server wears is straight, so what you thought were sub-deacons were probably altar servers. However, they are still blessed by the Bishop to the minor order of candle bearer.

Russian tradition does not use orarions for servers.

Offline Alpo

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Re: Subdeacons
« Reply #69 on: December 08, 2013, 11:20:26 AM »
Altar serves wearing subdeacon's vestment ??? And he's so little guy...



I'm more curious about the chain the deacon is wearing over his vestments...

I'm even more curious about moustache of the hierarch. That kind of moustache should be obligatory for every clergyman.

Offline frjohnmorris

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Re: Subdeacons
« Reply #70 on: December 08, 2013, 11:55:22 AM »
The only difference between the vestments of an altar server and a sub-deacon is that the sub-deacon crosses his orarion over his chest. An altar server wears is straight, so what you thought were sub-deacons were probably altar servers. However, they are still blessed by the Bishop to the minor order of candle bearer.

Russian tradition does not use orarions for servers.

Actually, I don't either because the boys get them all tangled up or they fall off, but it is part of the Antiochian tradition.

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Offline ilyazhito

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Re: Subdeacons
« Reply #71 on: March 20, 2014, 05:20:01 PM »
Altar serves wearing subdeacon's vestment ??? And he's so little guy...



I'm more curious about the chain the deacon is wearing over his vestments...
The deacon is wearing a cross. His rank would be Stavrophore Proto-/Archdeacon (he wears a kalimafki and has a double-length orarion, although that is standard for non-Russian churches). Priests and even Deacons who are outside the Russian tradition can receive crosses as an award for service.

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Subdeacons
« Reply #72 on: March 21, 2014, 05:32:19 PM »
The deacon is wearing a cross. His rank would be Stavrophore Proto-/Archdeacon (he wears a kalimafki and has a double-length orarion, although that is standard for non-Russian churches). Priests and even Deacons who are outside the Russian tradition can receive crosses as an award for service.

Wow, I never heard of such a thing. 
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Offline frjohnmorris

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Re: Subdeacons
« Reply #73 on: March 21, 2014, 05:48:32 PM »
The deacon is wearing a cross. His rank would be Stavrophore Proto-/Archdeacon (he wears a kalimafki and has a double-length orarion, although that is standard for non-Russian churches). Priests and even Deacons who are outside the Russian tradition can receive crosses as an award for service.

Wow, I never heard of such a thing. 

I also know of no Orthodox tradition in which a deacon wears a cross. The reason that all Russian Priests wear crosses is that one of the Tsarinas, I believe that it was Alexandria, was kissing the hands of deacons. So that she would who was a Priest and who was a Deacon,  Russian Priests began to wear crosses with different kinds of crosses indicating their rank. In other Orthodox traditions Priest have to be awarded the right to wear a cross. In Antiochian tradition, only an Archpriest or Arcimandrite wears a cross.

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Offline podkarpatska

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Re: Subdeacons
« Reply #74 on: March 21, 2014, 07:08:48 PM »
They are utterly useless.  done.   ;) ;D :P

We may be the only Orthodox who do it, but a sub-deacon can chant the Great Litany and the two Little Litanies during the Divine Liturgy. It is always a very good idea to have a sub-deacon or other adult in the Altar to watch the Altar Boys and make them behave.

In ACROD, I've seen subsections chant one of the two lesser litanies, but not the Great and then only with a special blessing from the Bishop.

Offline podkarpatska

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Re: Subdeacons
« Reply #75 on: March 21, 2014, 07:45:15 PM »
They are utterly useless.  done.   ;) ;D :P

We may be the only Orthodox who do it, but a sub-deacon can chant the Great Litany and the two Little Litanies during the Divine Liturgy. It is always a very good idea to have a sub-deacon or other adult in the Altar to watch the Altar Boys and make them behave.

In ACROD, I've seen subsections chant one of the two lesser litanies, but not the Great and then only with a special blessing from the Bishop.

I'm pretty sure the same software techs that developed Boeing's tracking software had something to do with Android's auto-correct function...

Obviously I meant "subdeacons"  not "subsections" lest anyone fear yet another western  oddity is lurking within St. Peter Mohyla' s rubrics...
« Last Edit: March 21, 2014, 07:45:45 PM by podkarpatska »

Offline Antonis

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Re: Subdeacons
« Reply #76 on: March 24, 2014, 08:52:39 PM »
I have seen pictures of Greek-tradition altar boys wearing orarion-like vestments whose ends come together at the chest in a "v" but stop there. They appear to be sewn permanently that way, so that they would be slid over the head on top of the sticharion. Very peculiar to my eyes, I've never seen them in person. Any idea what they might be?
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Offline Antonis

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Re: Subdeacons
« Reply #77 on: March 27, 2014, 11:08:03 PM »
I have seen pictures of Greek-tradition altar boys wearing orarion-like vestments whose ends come together at the chest in a "v" but stop there. They appear to be sewn permanently that way, so that they would be slid over the head on top of the sticharion. Very peculiar to my eyes, I've never seen them in person. Any idea what they might be?
Anyone?  :P
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Offline LBK

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Re: Subdeacons
« Reply #78 on: March 27, 2014, 11:14:04 PM »
I have seen pictures of Greek-tradition altar boys wearing orarion-like vestments whose ends come together at the chest in a "v" but stop there. They appear to be sewn permanently that way, so that they would be slid over the head on top of the sticharion. Very peculiar to my eyes, I've never seen them in person. Any idea what they might be?
Anyone?  :P

In my 50 years' experience, I've only ever seen the "oraria" of Greek altarboys arranged in parallel at the front, and crossed at the back. I've never seen what you've described.  :-\
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Offline frjohnmorris

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Re: Subdeacons
« Reply #79 on: March 27, 2014, 11:58:34 PM »
I have seen pictures of Greek-tradition altar boys wearing orarion-like vestments whose ends come together at the chest in a "v" but stop there. They appear to be sewn permanently that way, so that they would be slid over the head on top of the sticharion. Very peculiar to my eyes, I've never seen them in person. Any idea what they might be?
Anyone?  :P

In my 50 years' experience, I've only ever seen the "oraria" of Greek altarboys arranged in parallel at the front, and crossed at the back. I've never seen what you've described.  :-\

The difference between the vestments of a subdeacon and an altar server is that a subdeacon wears his orarion crossed in the front and back. An altar server only crosses it in the back. However, because boys tend to get their orarions tangled up or fiddle with them during the Divine Liturgy, my altar servers do not wear orarions.

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Offline Antonis

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Re: Subdeacons
« Reply #80 on: March 28, 2014, 12:02:48 AM »
I have seen pictures of Greek-tradition altar boys wearing orarion-like vestments whose ends come together at the chest in a "v" but stop there. They appear to be sewn permanently that way, so that they would be slid over the head on top of the sticharion. Very peculiar to my eyes, I've never seen them in person. Any idea what they might be?
Anyone?  :P

In my 50 years' experience, I've only ever seen the "oraria" of Greek altarboys arranged in parallel at the front, and crossed at the back. I've never seen what you've described.  :-\
A picture, if it helps at all:

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Re: Subdeacons
« Reply #81 on: March 28, 2014, 12:12:12 AM »
V-neck oraria?  That's weird.  :P
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Re: Subdeacons
« Reply #82 on: March 28, 2014, 12:15:16 AM »
V-neck oraria?  That's weird.  :P

reminds one of a Graduation hood.....for advanced degrees...in an odd way.

Offline Maria

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Re: Subdeacons
« Reply #83 on: March 28, 2014, 12:23:09 AM »
They are utterly useless.  done.   ;) ;D :P

We may be the only Orthodox who do it, but a sub-deacon can chant the Great Litany and the two Little Litanies during the Divine Liturgy. It is always a very good idea to have a sub-deacon or other adult in the Altar to watch the Altar Boys and make them behave.

In ACROD, I've seen subsections chant one of the two lesser litanies, but not the Great and then only with a special blessing from the Bishop.

I'm pretty sure the same software techs that developed Boeing's tracking software had something to do with Android's auto-correct function...

Obviously I meant "subdeacons"  not "subsections" lest anyone fear yet another western  oddity is lurking within St. Peter Mohyla' s rubrics...

Yes, I was wondering about the "subsection" comment. Hey, if I eat barley, it might be fun to see what I would post as I get spacey from plain barley malt -- it does not need to be alcoholic.

I have heard Subdeacons chant the litanies especially when the priest is losing his voice and there is no Deacon. In one parish, a Reader was allowed to chant the litanies, but he was being prepared for his ordination to the Subdiaconate.
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Offline Maria

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Re: Subdeacons
« Reply #84 on: March 28, 2014, 12:25:43 AM »
I have seen pictures of Greek-tradition altar boys wearing orarion-like vestments whose ends come together at the chest in a "v" but stop there. They appear to be sewn permanently that way, so that they would be slid over the head on top of the sticharion. Very peculiar to my eyes, I've never seen them in person. Any idea what they might be?
Anyone?  :P

In my 50 years' experience, I've only ever seen the "oraria" of Greek altarboys arranged in parallel at the front, and crossed at the back. I've never seen what you've described.  :-\

The difference between the vestments of a subdeacon and an altar server is that a subdeacon wears his orarion crossed in the front and back. An altar server only crosses it in the back. However, because boys tend to get their orarions tangled up or fiddle with them during the Divine Liturgy, my altar servers do not wear orarions.

Fr. John W. Morris

It is the nature of boys to fiddle.
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Offline Antonis

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Re: Subdeacons
« Reply #85 on: March 28, 2014, 12:36:11 AM »
V-neck oraria?  That's weird.  :P
Indeed, and they don't look like they were intended to be that way, the pattern doesn't match where they are sewn together!
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Offline Maria

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Re: Subdeacons
« Reply #86 on: March 28, 2014, 01:06:38 AM »
V-neck oraria?  That's weird.  :P
Indeed, and they don't look like they were intended to be that way, the pattern doesn't match where they are sewn together!

It looks like a separate piece that is put on over the vestment, most likely with snaps to hold them in place. When I was singing in the choir, we put our robes on, then put something like that (V shaped) over the robe. There was a button to hold it in place.
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Offline TheOldFellow

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Re: Subdeacons
« Reply #87 on: April 04, 2014, 05:10:34 PM »
On the topic of subdeacons saying the litanies, my situation may be enlightening.  My parish has no deacon, and our priest is ailing.  So I am frequently blessed to say Litanies.  This is not canonical, but I assume Father has the Bishop's blessing to allow it under economia.
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Offline ilyazhito

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Re: Subdeacons
« Reply #88 on: April 05, 2014, 01:47:52 PM »
Subdeacon Richard, hopefully you get ordained to the diaconate eventually. That would regularise your situation and leave you free to concentrate on the deacon's duties, and then the other subdeacons can be normal subdeacons.

Offline frjohnmorris

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Re: Subdeacons
« Reply #89 on: April 05, 2014, 05:41:28 PM »
V-neck oraria?  That's weird.  :P
Indeed, and they don't look like they were intended to be that way, the pattern doesn't match where they are sewn together!

I suspect that if someone had the time and the resources to research this matter, they would find that this style of orarion came from the sashes that Protestants frequently wear over their choir robes.

Fr. John W. Morris