OrthodoxChristianity.net
July 30, 2014, 05:17:44 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1 2 3 »  All   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Subdeacons  (Read 4555 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
mike
Stratopedarches
**************
Offline Offline

Posts: 21,467


WWW
« on: October 04, 2012, 08:05:07 PM »

What do subdeacons do during the Liturgy when there is no bishop present?
Logged

Byzantinism
no longer posting here
serb1389
Lord, remember me when you come into your Kingdom!
Global Moderator
Merarches
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Metropolis of San Francisco
Posts: 8,210


Michał Kalina's biggest fan

FrNPantic
WWW
« Reply #1 on: October 04, 2012, 09:14:37 PM »

They are utterly useless.  done.   Wink Grin Tongue
Logged

I got nothing.
I forgot the maps
March 27th and May 30th 2010 were my Ordination dates, please forgive everything before that
choy
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,316


« Reply #2 on: October 04, 2012, 09:40:01 PM »

Fancily dressed altar boys  Grin
« Last Edit: October 04, 2012, 09:40:12 PM by choy » Logged
maryofegypt
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 25



« Reply #3 on: October 05, 2012, 08:28:21 AM »

In a former parish of ours, they were basically altar server wranglers (and kept the little ones from setting themselves or other things on fire...).  Smiley
Logged
Cyrillic
Merarches
***********
Online Online

Posts: 8,737



« Reply #4 on: October 05, 2012, 08:52:33 AM »

Fancily dressed altar boys  Grin


You're a subdeacon now? In any case, you do have fancy vestments.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2012, 08:56:01 AM by Cyrillic » Logged

On a OC.net diet.

"Chi son?  Sono un poeta. Che cosa faccio? Scrivo. E come vivo?  Vivo."
-Giacomo Puccini
Αριστοκλής
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Diocese
Posts: 10,026


« Reply #5 on: October 05, 2012, 08:56:46 AM »

In our parish the sub-deacon is the best chanter. Never out of work...
Logged

"Religion is a neurobiological illness and Orthodoxy is its cure." - Fr. John S. Romanides
arimethea
Getting too old for this
Moderator
Archon
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Holy Catholic and Apostolic Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Patriarchate of Antioch
Posts: 2,968


Does anyone really care what you think?


« Reply #6 on: October 05, 2012, 09:54:02 AM »

What do subdeacons do during the Liturgy when there is no bishop present?

I have been told there is no reason for a subdeacon to even vest if there is no bishop present.
Logged

Joseph
choy
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,316


« Reply #7 on: October 05, 2012, 10:29:23 AM »

Fancily dressed altar boys  Grin


You're a subdeacon now? In any case, you do have fancy vestments.

I don't have an orarion Wink
Logged
Cyrillic
Merarches
***********
Online Online

Posts: 8,737



« Reply #8 on: October 05, 2012, 10:51:36 AM »

Fancily dressed altar boys  Grin


You're a subdeacon now? In any case, you do have fancy vestments.

I don't have an orarion Wink

At least not yet Wink
« Last Edit: October 05, 2012, 10:54:13 AM by Cyrillic » Logged

On a OC.net diet.

"Chi son?  Sono un poeta. Che cosa faccio? Scrivo. E come vivo?  Vivo."
-Giacomo Puccini
Marc1152
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Rocor
Posts: 12,531


Probiotic .. Antibiotic


« Reply #9 on: October 05, 2012, 11:05:18 AM »

What do subdeacons do during the Liturgy when there is no bishop present?

I have been told there is no reason for a subdeacon to even vest if there is no bishop present.

Okay, but shouldnt adult alter servers be Readers or better? 
Logged

Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm
choy
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,316


« Reply #10 on: October 05, 2012, 11:08:00 AM »

Fancily dressed altar boys  Grin


You're a subdeacon now? In any case, you do have fancy vestments.

I don't have an orarion Wink

At least not yet Wink

Maybe not in the Eastern Catholic Church Wink
Logged
Cyrillic
Merarches
***********
Online Online

Posts: 8,737



« Reply #11 on: October 05, 2012, 11:23:16 AM »

Fancily dressed altar boys  Grin


You're a subdeacon now? In any case, you do have fancy vestments.

I don't have an orarion Wink

At least not yet Wink

Maybe not in the Eastern Catholic Church Wink

I see what you're getting at  Wink

(my eyes start to hurt from all that blinking)
« Last Edit: October 05, 2012, 11:23:28 AM by Cyrillic » Logged

On a OC.net diet.

"Chi son?  Sono un poeta. Che cosa faccio? Scrivo. E come vivo?  Vivo."
-Giacomo Puccini
88Devin12
Warned
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 4,864



« Reply #12 on: October 05, 2012, 12:00:54 PM »

From how I understand it, traditionally there isn't an altar boy role. Rather, altar boys are assumed to be readers/subdeacons in training.

I know in the Antiochian parish I visit every so often, their altar boys are all dressed as subdeacons. However, their Bishop ordains some of them and allows them to get married after.

Yet in the OCA, or at least under our Bishop, and traditionally, you must be married prior to being made a subdeacon.

If there is just one subdeacon among several altar servers, he may act as sacristan.
Logged
mike
Stratopedarches
**************
Offline Offline

Posts: 21,467


WWW
« Reply #13 on: October 05, 2012, 12:08:39 PM »

If there is just one subdeacon among several altar servers, he may act as sacristan.

Act as who?
Logged

Byzantinism
no longer posting here
choy
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,316


« Reply #14 on: October 05, 2012, 12:55:43 PM »


I see what you're getting at  Wink

(my eyes start to hurt from all that blinking)

I just feel that I do not belong which is why I was alwas hesitant to pursue a vocation where I am today.
Logged
age234
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antioch
Posts: 555


« Reply #15 on: October 05, 2012, 01:42:25 PM »

I've only been to one Antiochian parish that has subdeacons (2), and the priest allows them to each lead the people in one little litany in the service. They also chant the prokeimenon and epistle.
Logged
LBK
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 10,237


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!


« Reply #16 on: October 05, 2012, 06:18:13 PM »

Quote
I know in the Antiochian parish I visit every so often, their altar boys are all dressed as subdeacons.

Not quite. The Greek and Antiochian tradition is for altarboys to be vested in stikharion and orarion (Russian is stikharion only), but there is a difference in how the orarion is arranged for altarboy and subdeacon:

Both have the orarion horizontal at the waist and crossed across the back in an X shape. The subdeacon has the arms of the orarion crossed over into an X across the front, with the ends tucked behind the waistband; the altarboy has the arms pointing vertically, not crossed.

A subtle but important difference.
Logged
88Devin12
Warned
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 4,864



« Reply #17 on: October 05, 2012, 07:08:12 PM »

Quote
I know in the Antiochian parish I visit every so often, their altar boys are all dressed as subdeacons.

Not quite. The Greek and Antiochian tradition is for altarboys to be vested in stikharion and orarion (Russian is stikharion only), but there is a difference in how the orarion is arranged for altarboy and subdeacon:

Both have the orarion horizontal at the waist and crossed across the back in an X shape. The subdeacon has the arms of the orarion crossed over into an X across the front, with the ends tucked behind the waistband; the altarboy has the arms pointing vertically, not crossed.

A subtle but important difference.

I think theirs are crossed in front, not vertical. It may be a slight mistake in vesting in that parish though. (like some parishes putting Archangels Michael & Gabriel on the wrong sides)
« Last Edit: October 05, 2012, 07:08:36 PM by 88Devin12 » Logged
Orthodox11
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,999


« Reply #18 on: October 05, 2012, 07:10:35 PM »

A subtle but important difference.

So subtle it is often ignored.
Logged
LBK
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 10,237


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!


« Reply #19 on: October 05, 2012, 07:36:18 PM »

Quote
(like some parishes putting Archangels Michael & Gabriel on the wrong sides)

True ...  Tongue Roll Eyes
Logged
serb1389
Lord, remember me when you come into your Kingdom!
Global Moderator
Merarches
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Metropolis of San Francisco
Posts: 8,210


Michał Kalina's biggest fan

FrNPantic
WWW
« Reply #20 on: October 05, 2012, 09:34:40 PM »

Quote
(like some parishes putting Archangels Michael & Gabriel on the wrong sides)

True ...  Tongue Roll Eyes

We have that.  Ugh.
Logged

I got nothing.
I forgot the maps
March 27th and May 30th 2010 were my Ordination dates, please forgive everything before that
Shanghaiski
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 7,964


Holy Trinity Church of Gergeti, Georgia


« Reply #21 on: October 05, 2012, 10:20:33 PM »

Quote
I know in the Antiochian parish I visit every so often, their altar boys are all dressed as subdeacons.

Not quite. The Greek and Antiochian tradition is for altarboys to be vested in stikharion and orarion (Russian is stikharion only), but there is a difference in how the orarion is arranged for altarboy and subdeacon:

Both have the orarion horizontal at the waist and crossed across the back in an X shape. The subdeacon has the arms of the orarion crossed over into an X across the front, with the ends tucked behind the waistband; the altarboy has the arms pointing vertically, not crossed.

A subtle but important difference.

In my parish, altar boys wear sticharions but not orarions--dresses but no floppy things.
Logged

Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.
age234
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antioch
Posts: 555


« Reply #22 on: October 06, 2012, 12:55:23 AM »

Quote
I know in the Antiochian parish I visit every so often, their altar boys are all dressed as subdeacons.

Not quite. The Greek and Antiochian tradition is for altarboys to be vested in stikharion and orarion (Russian is stikharion only), but there is a difference in how the orarion is arranged for altarboy and subdeacon:

Both have the orarion horizontal at the waist and crossed across the back in an X shape. The subdeacon has the arms of the orarion crossed over into an X across the front, with the ends tucked behind the waistband; the altarboy has the arms pointing vertically, not crossed.

A subtle but important difference.

I've never seen an altar boy wear an oration...
Logged
mildert
Deacon Philip
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Archdiocese of Russian Orthodox Churches in Western Europe - Exarchate of the Ecumenical Patriarchate
Posts: 113


« Reply #23 on: October 16, 2012, 01:07:00 PM »

What do subdeacons do during the Liturgy when there is no bishop present?

Act as senior Altar servers.
Logged

In XC,

Deacon Philip
mike
Stratopedarches
**************
Offline Offline

Posts: 21,467


WWW
« Reply #24 on: October 16, 2012, 01:20:54 PM »

What do subdeacons do during the Liturgy when there is no bishop present?

Act as senior Altar servers.

With orarions on?

What do you mean by "senior"?
Logged

Byzantinism
no longer posting here
sheenj
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Indian/Malankara Orthodox Syrian Church
Posts: 1,400


St. Gregorios of Parumala, pray for us...


« Reply #25 on: October 16, 2012, 01:23:37 PM »

What do subdeacons do during the Liturgy when there is no bishop present?

Act as senior Altar servers.

With orarions on?

What do you mean by "senior"?

Probably means he gets first dibs on readings.
Logged
choy
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,316


« Reply #26 on: October 16, 2012, 02:47:59 PM »

With orarions on?

What do you mean by "senior"?

If he doesn't feel like doing something he gets to tell the other servers to do it for him  laugh

Proto-Server  Grin
or Arch-Server  Grin
« Last Edit: October 16, 2012, 02:48:11 PM by choy » Logged
mike
Stratopedarches
**************
Offline Offline

Posts: 21,467


WWW
« Reply #27 on: October 16, 2012, 03:33:17 PM »

If he doesn't feel like doing something he gets to tell the other servers to do it for him  laugh

I stopped serving before I reached that level Sad
Logged

Byzantinism
no longer posting here
88Devin12
Warned
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 4,864



« Reply #28 on: October 17, 2012, 12:58:14 AM »

With orarions on?

What do you mean by "senior"?

If he doesn't feel like doing something he gets to tell the other servers to do it for him  laugh

Proto-Server  Grin
or Arch-Server  Grin

LOL, I guess it could be that. I think of it as being entrusted to instruct new ones. Your also usually expected to be the one to clean up the altar area: dusting, sweeping, cleaning candle wax and replacing candles, filling the oil, trimming candle wicks, making sure the table of preparation has wine and water ready (usually in glass containers), cleaning the censer and other brass & metal things, making sure there is enough incense, and coal, organizing liturgical books and supplies, cleaning icons (usually with Rose Water), making sure icons are in the right places (people take them down for veneration and misplace them after), and sometimes making sure to remind the Priest to do stuff, like bless icons or holy water.

Individually those are small jobs, but together it could be an extra 10-30 minutes depending on how bad things are.

The other altar servers help in the service and may help clean, but I think it's good to have at least one person dedicated to the job so it always gets done.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2012, 01:01:01 AM by 88Devin12 » Logged
HabteSelassie
Ises and I-ity
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church
Posts: 3,332



« Reply #29 on: October 17, 2012, 03:25:45 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

They are utterly useless.  done.   Wink Grin Tongue


Weren't they always? I mean these lazy deacons, just standing around doing

 ..EVERYTHING at the same time Wink

stay blessed,
habte selassie
« Last Edit: October 17, 2012, 03:26:49 PM by HabteSelassie » Logged

"Yet stand aloof from stupid questionings and geneologies and strifes and fightings about law, for they are without benefit and vain." Titus 3:10
choy
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,316


« Reply #30 on: October 17, 2012, 03:30:27 PM »

With orarions on?

What do you mean by "senior"?

If he doesn't feel like doing something he gets to tell the other servers to do it for him  laugh

Proto-Server  Grin
or Arch-Server  Grin

LOL, I guess it could be that. I think of it as being entrusted to instruct new ones. Your also usually expected to be the one to clean up the altar area: dusting, sweeping, cleaning candle wax and replacing candles, filling the oil, trimming candle wicks, making sure the table of preparation has wine and water ready (usually in glass containers), cleaning the censer and other brass & metal things, making sure there is enough incense, and coal, organizing liturgical books and supplies, cleaning icons (usually with Rose Water), making sure icons are in the right places (people take them down for veneration and misplace them after), and sometimes making sure to remind the Priest to do stuff, like bless icons or holy water.

Individually those are small jobs, but together it could be an extra 10-30 minutes depending on how bad things are.

The other altar servers help in the service and may help clean, but I think it's good to have at least one person dedicated to the job so it always gets done.

I'm not a subdeacon but I already do most of this.  Maybe time to ask for a "promotion" Wink
Logged
88Devin12
Warned
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 4,864



« Reply #31 on: October 17, 2012, 10:56:44 PM »

With orarions on?

What do you mean by "senior"?

If he doesn't feel like doing something he gets to tell the other servers to do it for him  laugh

Proto-Server  Grin
or Arch-Server  Grin

LOL, I guess it could be that. I think of it as being entrusted to instruct new ones. Your also usually expected to be the one to clean up the altar area: dusting, sweeping, cleaning candle wax and replacing candles, filling the oil, trimming candle wicks, making sure the table of preparation has wine and water ready (usually in glass containers), cleaning the censer and other brass & metal things, making sure there is enough incense, and coal, organizing liturgical books and supplies, cleaning icons (usually with Rose Water), making sure icons are in the right places (people take them down for veneration and misplace them after), and sometimes making sure to remind the Priest to do stuff, like bless icons or holy water.

Individually those are small jobs, but together it could be an extra 10-30 minutes depending on how bad things are.

The other altar servers help in the service and may help clean, but I think it's good to have at least one person dedicated to the job so it always gets done.

I'm not a subdeacon but I already do most of this.  Maybe time to ask for a "promotion" Wink

I'm not either, as per the earlier posts, that was referring to the role of proto-server, arch-server, sacristan. I could see the subdeacon being given that role.
Logged
Iconodule
Uranopolitan
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA (Diocese of Eastern Pennsylvania)
Posts: 6,861


"My god is greater."


« Reply #32 on: October 17, 2012, 11:02:13 PM »

I know of a young boy who was an altar server at an OCA parish in the USA and really enjoyed it. When his family moved to Bulgaria, he wanted to continue being an altar boy- however, there is no real tradition of altar boys in Bulgaria. What happened instead? The bishop ordained him a subdeacon. Sometimes the family is back in the States and our parish is blessed with the world's littlest subdeacon in full vestments. With no bishop present though, his actual role is the same as an altar boy.
Logged

"A riddle or the cricket's cry
Is to doubt a fit reply." - William Blake

Quote from: Byron
Just ignore iconotools delusions. He is the biggest multiculturalist globalist there is due to his unfortunate background.
mike
Stratopedarches
**************
Offline Offline

Posts: 21,467


WWW
« Reply #33 on: October 18, 2012, 03:59:21 AM »

I know of a young boy who was an altar server at an OCA parish in the USA and really enjoyed it. When his family moved to Bulgaria, he wanted to continue being an altar boy- however, there is no real tradition of altar boys in Bulgaria. What happened instead? The bishop ordained him a subdeacon. Sometimes the family is back in the States and our parish is blessed with the world's littlest subdeacon in full vestments. With no bishop present though, his actual role is the same as an altar boy.

When I was in Bulgaria I've noticed there are some teenage boys in subdeacons' vestments. I was quite surprised.

What happens when they would like to marry?
Logged

Byzantinism
no longer posting here
LBK
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 10,237


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!


« Reply #34 on: October 18, 2012, 04:30:38 AM »

I know of a young boy who was an altar server at an OCA parish in the USA and really enjoyed it. When his family moved to Bulgaria, he wanted to continue being an altar boy- however, there is no real tradition of altar boys in Bulgaria. What happened instead? The bishop ordained him a subdeacon. Sometimes the family is back in the States and our parish is blessed with the world's littlest subdeacon in full vestments. With no bishop present though, his actual role is the same as an altar boy.

When I was in Bulgaria I've noticed there are some teenage boys in subdeacons' vestments. I was quite surprised.

What happens when they would like to marry?

They might not be subdeacons. Look at my earlier post on the difference in vesting.
Logged
Monk Vasyl
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: UOC of USA
Posts: 623


Monk Vasyl
WWW
« Reply #35 on: October 18, 2012, 09:10:52 AM »

I know of a young boy who was an altar server at an OCA parish in the USA and really enjoyed it. When his family moved to Bulgaria, he wanted to continue being an altar boy- however, there is no real tradition of altar boys in Bulgaria. What happened instead? The bishop ordained him a subdeacon. Sometimes the family is back in the States and our parish is blessed with the world's littlest subdeacon in full vestments. With no bishop present though, his actual role is the same as an altar boy.

When I was in Bulgaria I've noticed there are some teenage boys in subdeacons' vestments. I was quite surprised.

What happens when they would like to marry?

They might not be subdeacons. Look at my earlier post on the difference in vesting.

They could also be "blessed" subdeacons.  Archbishop Job, of eternal memory, blessed both me and another server to ware the subdeacon's orarion.
Logged

The unworthy hierodeacon, Vasyl
smithakd
Dcn Andrew Smith
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Australia
Posts: 75


Orthodox Christian Deacon and Author

intro2orthodoxy
WWW
« Reply #36 on: December 04, 2012, 06:22:47 PM »

What subdeacons are permitted to do and what subdeacons practically do will probably vary depending on the jurisdiction/liturgical tradition.  I can really only speak of the ROCOR practises here on any level of personal experience.

In ROCOR practise, subdeacons are permitted to touch the altar and the oblations table.  For this reason, subdeacons are able to change the colours of the altar cloths and vestments, as well as move or clean various sacred vessels (which is /really/ helpful).  They will often also function as a 'head altar server' (and potentially a reader, if required).

There are some traditions that have essentially done away with subdeacons (aside from the time between ordaining a man to be subdeacon before Liturgy then deacon after the Anaphora), as well as some traditions that do different things again (I've heard of some traditions where subdeacons will intone litanies, or distribute communion) - but that will depend on the tradition and the bishop, I guess.
Logged

Dcn Andrew Smith

Author: Discover the Church: The Whats and Whys of Orthodox Christianity and Footsteps of the Apostles: 110 ways to promote church growth in your Orthodox parish.
Marc1152
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Rocor
Posts: 12,531


Probiotic .. Antibiotic


« Reply #37 on: December 04, 2012, 10:33:38 PM »

What subdeacons are permitted to do and what subdeacons practically do will probably vary depending on the jurisdiction/liturgical tradition.  I can really only speak of the ROCOR practises here on any level of personal experience.

In ROCOR practise, subdeacons are permitted to touch the altar and the oblations table.  For this reason, subdeacons are able to change the colours of the altar cloths and vestments, as well as move or clean various sacred vessels (which is /really/ helpful).  They will often also function as a 'head altar server' (and potentially a reader, if required).

There are some traditions that have essentially done away with subdeacons (aside from the time between ordaining a man to be subdeacon before Liturgy then deacon after the Anaphora), as well as some traditions that do different things again (I've heard of some traditions where subdeacons will intone litanies, or distribute communion) - but that will depend on the tradition and the bishop, I guess.

Since Bishops visit irregularly, how would a sub deacon learn how to properly vest a Bishop? Ive helped three or four times but not often enough to remember much.
Logged

Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm
username!
Section Moderator
Protokentarchos
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Ukrainian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Pennsylvaniadoxy
Posts: 5,027



« Reply #38 on: December 04, 2012, 10:39:42 PM »

With orarions on?

What do you mean by "senior"?

If he doesn't feel like doing something he gets to tell the other servers to do it for him  laugh

Proto-Server  Grin
or Arch-Server  Grin

LOL, I guess it could be that. I think of it as being entrusted to instruct new ones. Your also usually expected to be the one to clean up the altar area: dusting, sweeping, cleaning candle wax and replacing candles, filling the oil, trimming candle wicks, making sure the table of preparation has wine and water ready (usually in glass containers), cleaning the censer and other brass & metal things, making sure there is enough incense, and coal, organizing liturgical books and supplies, cleaning icons (usually with Rose Water), making sure icons are in the right places (people take them down for veneration and misplace them after), and sometimes making sure to remind the Priest to do stuff, like bless icons or holy water.

Individually those are small jobs, but together it could be an extra 10-30 minutes depending on how bad things are.

The other altar servers help in the service and may help clean, but I think it's good to have at least one person dedicated to the job so it always gets done.

I'm not a subdeacon but I already do most of this.  Maybe time to ask for a "promotion" Wink
You can't;
touch the altar or proskomedia table
go through the royal doors when appointed (usually serving and taking the burial shroud out with the bishop)
touch the chalice etc..
distribute communion (ACROD subdeacons can if blessed)
Aren't ordained a subdeacon
chant litanies (depends on jurisdiction)

Even if you are blessed to cross the stole like a subdeacon you still can't do the above.  Sorry, it's the way the rules go.
Logged

username!
Section Moderator
Protokentarchos
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Ukrainian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Pennsylvaniadoxy
Posts: 5,027



« Reply #39 on: December 04, 2012, 10:42:34 PM »

What subdeacons are permitted to do and what subdeacons practically do will probably vary depending on the jurisdiction/liturgical tradition.  I can really only speak of the ROCOR practises here on any level of personal experience.

In ROCOR practise, subdeacons are permitted to touch the altar and the oblations table.  For this reason, subdeacons are able to change the colours of the altar cloths and vestments, as well as move or clean various sacred vessels (which is /really/ helpful).  They will often also function as a 'head altar server' (and potentially a reader, if required).

There are some traditions that have essentially done away with subdeacons (aside from the time between ordaining a man to be subdeacon before Liturgy then deacon after the Anaphora), as well as some traditions that do different things again (I've heard of some traditions where subdeacons will intone litanies, or distribute communion) - but that will depend on the tradition and the bishop, I guess.

Since Bishops visit irregularly, how would a sub deacon learn how to properly vest a Bishop? Ive helped three or four times but not often enough to remember much.

A good subdeacon knows the ins and outs of each service.  He remembers them OR studies them before hand.  That's how.   
Technically the subdeacon is in service of the deacon during the liturgy (with bishop). 
A subdeacon was also tonsured a reader.  Therefore he can do the functions of a reader. 
He supersedes readers in communion line. Hence he is the first in line to receive communion outside of the altar.
Logged

username!
Section Moderator
Protokentarchos
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Ukrainian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Pennsylvaniadoxy
Posts: 5,027



« Reply #40 on: December 04, 2012, 10:44:53 PM »

Quote
I know in the Antiochian parish I visit every so often, their altar boys are all dressed as subdeacons.

Not quite. The Greek and Antiochian tradition is for altarboys to be vested in stikharion and orarion (Russian is stikharion only), but there is a difference in how the orarion is arranged for altarboy and subdeacon:

Both have the orarion horizontal at the waist and crossed across the back in an X shape. The subdeacon has the arms of the orarion crossed over into an X across the front, with the ends tucked behind the waistband; the altarboy has the arms pointing vertically, not crossed.

A subtle but important difference.

I've never seen an altar boy wear an oration...

Go to a greek parish.. everyone wears a stole.  they just don't cross it in front.  It's a ridiculous practice.
Most people in my experience that aren't from "everything has to be organized america" will have no clue what you mean by senior altar server.
Logged

username!
Section Moderator
Protokentarchos
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Ukrainian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Pennsylvaniadoxy
Posts: 5,027



« Reply #41 on: December 04, 2012, 10:52:41 PM »

I've only been to one Antiochian parish that has subdeacons (2), and the priest allows them to each lead the people in one little litany in the service. They also chant the prokeimenon and epistle.

Yes the Arabs allow the subdeacons to actually perform their role a little more than other dioceses/jurisdictions.  Subdeacons were readers before they were subdeacons.  Historically readers had more roles than they do today.  Remember many of our parishes grew without the full traditions.  Technically no one that is not clergy should be reading the epistle or intoning the prokimenon etc...  But in the "everyone has to have a chair in musical chairs america" that we live in you can't step on mrs. johnson's toes when she wants to do all the reader functions with a reader present during the service.

the American-Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Diocese allows certain subdeacons to distribute communion in large parishes.  Don't beat me up for telling you, it's their practice.  Subdeacons historically had much more roles than they do today I think.
Example me and the deacon helped the priest fix up the altar.. there were other guys on the altar getting it ready for Pascha I believe.  Father said, I need to fix the rug that goes in front of the altar table and under it. Some of the guys said "ok I'll do it"  Father said, no deacon ___ and username! and I are the only ones that are able to do this thank you guys though!  Not every parish is strict like that and many slack because they allow the laity to run them over because of the congregationalist parish councils.  However this priest runs the parish not as a democracy and the parish council does not have the "we own the priest he's our employee" attitude like 72.45% of parishes in the USA are ran.   Take that out of the equation and all clergy minor and major get to function on their known roles and it makes for a very well conducted service.  Just like the sluzhebnik calls for.
Logged

username!
Section Moderator
Protokentarchos
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Ukrainian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Pennsylvaniadoxy
Posts: 5,027



« Reply #42 on: December 04, 2012, 10:55:31 PM »

They are utterly useless.  done.   Wink Grin Tongue

We're the bishop's flunkies I was told. 
Logged

username!
Section Moderator
Protokentarchos
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Ukrainian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Pennsylvaniadoxy
Posts: 5,027



« Reply #43 on: December 04, 2012, 10:57:07 PM »

What do subdeacons do during the Liturgy when there is no bishop present?
If not serving stand with my family or sing in the choir and chant the epistle.  Don't worry I'm never going to use the word "ipodiakon" in front of my username. 
Logged

mike
Stratopedarches
**************
Offline Offline

Posts: 21,467


WWW
« Reply #44 on: December 05, 2012, 12:55:24 AM »

You can't;
touch the altar or proskomedia table

In this part of the world altar servers can touch sacrifice table.
Logged

Byzantinism
no longer posting here
Tags:
Pages: 1 2 3 »  All   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.155 seconds with 73 queries.