Author Topic: Subdeacons  (Read 6501 times)

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Offline mike

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Subdeacons
« on: October 04, 2012, 08:05:07 PM »
What do subdeacons do during the Liturgy when there is no bishop present?

Offline serb1389

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Re: Subdeacons
« Reply #1 on: October 04, 2012, 09:14:37 PM »
They are utterly useless.  done.   ;) ;D :P
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Offline choy

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Re: Subdeacons
« Reply #2 on: October 04, 2012, 09:40:01 PM »
Fancily dressed altar boys  ;D
« Last Edit: October 04, 2012, 09:40:12 PM by choy »

Offline maryofegypt

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Re: Subdeacons
« Reply #3 on: October 05, 2012, 08:28:21 AM »
In a former parish of ours, they were basically altar server wranglers (and kept the little ones from setting themselves or other things on fire...).  :)

Offline Cyrillic

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Re: Subdeacons
« Reply #4 on: October 05, 2012, 08:52:33 AM »
Fancily dressed altar boys  ;D


You're a subdeacon now? In any case, you do have fancy vestments.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2012, 08:56:01 AM by Cyrillic »
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Offline Αριστοκλής

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Re: Subdeacons
« Reply #5 on: October 05, 2012, 08:56:46 AM »
In our parish the sub-deacon is the best chanter. Never out of work...
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Re: Subdeacons
« Reply #6 on: October 05, 2012, 09:54:02 AM »
What do subdeacons do during the Liturgy when there is no bishop present?

I have been told there is no reason for a subdeacon to even vest if there is no bishop present.
Joseph

Offline choy

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Re: Subdeacons
« Reply #7 on: October 05, 2012, 10:29:23 AM »
Fancily dressed altar boys  ;D


You're a subdeacon now? In any case, you do have fancy vestments.

I don't have an orarion ;)

Offline Cyrillic

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Re: Subdeacons
« Reply #8 on: October 05, 2012, 10:51:36 AM »
Fancily dressed altar boys  ;D


You're a subdeacon now? In any case, you do have fancy vestments.

I don't have an orarion ;)

At least not yet ;)
« Last Edit: October 05, 2012, 10:54:13 AM by Cyrillic »
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Offline Marc1152

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Re: Subdeacons
« Reply #9 on: October 05, 2012, 11:05:18 AM »
What do subdeacons do during the Liturgy when there is no bishop present?

I have been told there is no reason for a subdeacon to even vest if there is no bishop present.

Okay, but shouldnt adult alter servers be Readers or better? 
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Offline choy

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Re: Subdeacons
« Reply #10 on: October 05, 2012, 11:08:00 AM »
Fancily dressed altar boys  ;D


You're a subdeacon now? In any case, you do have fancy vestments.

I don't have an orarion ;)

At least not yet ;)

Maybe not in the Eastern Catholic Church ;)

Offline Cyrillic

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Re: Subdeacons
« Reply #11 on: October 05, 2012, 11:23:16 AM »
Fancily dressed altar boys  ;D


You're a subdeacon now? In any case, you do have fancy vestments.

I don't have an orarion ;)

At least not yet ;)

Maybe not in the Eastern Catholic Church ;)

I see what you're getting at  ;)

(my eyes start to hurt from all that blinking)
« Last Edit: October 05, 2012, 11:23:28 AM by Cyrillic »
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Offline 88Devin12

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Re: Subdeacons
« Reply #12 on: October 05, 2012, 12:00:54 PM »
From how I understand it, traditionally there isn't an altar boy role. Rather, altar boys are assumed to be readers/subdeacons in training.

I know in the Antiochian parish I visit every so often, their altar boys are all dressed as subdeacons. However, their Bishop ordains some of them and allows them to get married after.

Yet in the OCA, or at least under our Bishop, and traditionally, you must be married prior to being made a subdeacon.

If there is just one subdeacon among several altar servers, he may act as sacristan.

Offline mike

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Re: Subdeacons
« Reply #13 on: October 05, 2012, 12:08:39 PM »
If there is just one subdeacon among several altar servers, he may act as sacristan.

Act as who?

Offline choy

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Re: Subdeacons
« Reply #14 on: October 05, 2012, 12:55:43 PM »

I see what you're getting at  ;)

(my eyes start to hurt from all that blinking)

I just feel that I do not belong which is why I was alwas hesitant to pursue a vocation where I am today.

Offline age234

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Re: Subdeacons
« Reply #15 on: October 05, 2012, 01:42:25 PM »
I've only been to one Antiochian parish that has subdeacons (2), and the priest allows them to each lead the people in one little litany in the service. They also chant the prokeimenon and epistle.

Offline LBK

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Re: Subdeacons
« Reply #16 on: October 05, 2012, 06:18:13 PM »
Quote
I know in the Antiochian parish I visit every so often, their altar boys are all dressed as subdeacons.

Not quite. The Greek and Antiochian tradition is for altarboys to be vested in stikharion and orarion (Russian is stikharion only), but there is a difference in how the orarion is arranged for altarboy and subdeacon:

Both have the orarion horizontal at the waist and crossed across the back in an X shape. The subdeacon has the arms of the orarion crossed over into an X across the front, with the ends tucked behind the waistband; the altarboy has the arms pointing vertically, not crossed.

A subtle but important difference.
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Offline 88Devin12

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Re: Subdeacons
« Reply #17 on: October 05, 2012, 07:08:12 PM »
Quote
I know in the Antiochian parish I visit every so often, their altar boys are all dressed as subdeacons.

Not quite. The Greek and Antiochian tradition is for altarboys to be vested in stikharion and orarion (Russian is stikharion only), but there is a difference in how the orarion is arranged for altarboy and subdeacon:

Both have the orarion horizontal at the waist and crossed across the back in an X shape. The subdeacon has the arms of the orarion crossed over into an X across the front, with the ends tucked behind the waistband; the altarboy has the arms pointing vertically, not crossed.

A subtle but important difference.

I think theirs are crossed in front, not vertical. It may be a slight mistake in vesting in that parish though. (like some parishes putting Archangels Michael & Gabriel on the wrong sides)
« Last Edit: October 05, 2012, 07:08:36 PM by 88Devin12 »

Offline Orthodox11

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Re: Subdeacons
« Reply #18 on: October 05, 2012, 07:10:35 PM »
A subtle but important difference.

So subtle it is often ignored.

Offline LBK

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Re: Subdeacons
« Reply #19 on: October 05, 2012, 07:36:18 PM »
Quote
(like some parishes putting Archangels Michael & Gabriel on the wrong sides)

True ...  :P ::)
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Offline serb1389

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Re: Subdeacons
« Reply #20 on: October 05, 2012, 09:34:40 PM »
Quote
(like some parishes putting Archangels Michael & Gabriel on the wrong sides)

True ...  :P ::)

We have that.  Ugh.
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Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: Subdeacons
« Reply #21 on: October 05, 2012, 10:20:33 PM »
Quote
I know in the Antiochian parish I visit every so often, their altar boys are all dressed as subdeacons.

Not quite. The Greek and Antiochian tradition is for altarboys to be vested in stikharion and orarion (Russian is stikharion only), but there is a difference in how the orarion is arranged for altarboy and subdeacon:

Both have the orarion horizontal at the waist and crossed across the back in an X shape. The subdeacon has the arms of the orarion crossed over into an X across the front, with the ends tucked behind the waistband; the altarboy has the arms pointing vertically, not crossed.

A subtle but important difference.

In my parish, altar boys wear sticharions but not orarions--dresses but no floppy things.
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Offline age234

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Re: Subdeacons
« Reply #22 on: October 06, 2012, 12:55:23 AM »
Quote
I know in the Antiochian parish I visit every so often, their altar boys are all dressed as subdeacons.

Not quite. The Greek and Antiochian tradition is for altarboys to be vested in stikharion and orarion (Russian is stikharion only), but there is a difference in how the orarion is arranged for altarboy and subdeacon:

Both have the orarion horizontal at the waist and crossed across the back in an X shape. The subdeacon has the arms of the orarion crossed over into an X across the front, with the ends tucked behind the waistband; the altarboy has the arms pointing vertically, not crossed.

A subtle but important difference.

I've never seen an altar boy wear an oration...

Offline mildert

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Re: Subdeacons
« Reply #23 on: October 16, 2012, 01:07:00 PM »
What do subdeacons do during the Liturgy when there is no bishop present?

Act as senior Altar servers.
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Offline mike

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Re: Subdeacons
« Reply #24 on: October 16, 2012, 01:20:54 PM »
What do subdeacons do during the Liturgy when there is no bishop present?

Act as senior Altar servers.

With orarions on?

What do you mean by "senior"?

Offline sheenj

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Re: Subdeacons
« Reply #25 on: October 16, 2012, 01:23:37 PM »
What do subdeacons do during the Liturgy when there is no bishop present?

Act as senior Altar servers.

With orarions on?

What do you mean by "senior"?

Probably means he gets first dibs on readings.

Offline choy

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Re: Subdeacons
« Reply #26 on: October 16, 2012, 02:47:59 PM »
With orarions on?

What do you mean by "senior"?

If he doesn't feel like doing something he gets to tell the other servers to do it for him  :laugh:

Proto-Server  ;D
or Arch-Server  ;D
« Last Edit: October 16, 2012, 02:48:11 PM by choy »

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Re: Subdeacons
« Reply #27 on: October 16, 2012, 03:33:17 PM »
If he doesn't feel like doing something he gets to tell the other servers to do it for him  :laugh:

I stopped serving before I reached that level :(

Offline 88Devin12

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Re: Subdeacons
« Reply #28 on: October 17, 2012, 12:58:14 AM »
With orarions on?

What do you mean by "senior"?

If he doesn't feel like doing something he gets to tell the other servers to do it for him  :laugh:

Proto-Server  ;D
or Arch-Server  ;D

LOL, I guess it could be that. I think of it as being entrusted to instruct new ones. Your also usually expected to be the one to clean up the altar area: dusting, sweeping, cleaning candle wax and replacing candles, filling the oil, trimming candle wicks, making sure the table of preparation has wine and water ready (usually in glass containers), cleaning the censer and other brass & metal things, making sure there is enough incense, and coal, organizing liturgical books and supplies, cleaning icons (usually with Rose Water), making sure icons are in the right places (people take them down for veneration and misplace them after), and sometimes making sure to remind the Priest to do stuff, like bless icons or holy water.

Individually those are small jobs, but together it could be an extra 10-30 minutes depending on how bad things are.

The other altar servers help in the service and may help clean, but I think it's good to have at least one person dedicated to the job so it always gets done.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2012, 01:01:01 AM by 88Devin12 »

Offline HabteSelassie

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Re: Subdeacons
« Reply #29 on: October 17, 2012, 03:25:45 PM »
Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

They are utterly useless.  done.   ;) ;D :P


Weren't they always? I mean these lazy deacons, just standing around doing

 ..EVERYTHING at the same time ;)

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« Last Edit: October 17, 2012, 03:26:49 PM by HabteSelassie »
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Offline choy

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Re: Subdeacons
« Reply #30 on: October 17, 2012, 03:30:27 PM »
With orarions on?

What do you mean by "senior"?

If he doesn't feel like doing something he gets to tell the other servers to do it for him  :laugh:

Proto-Server  ;D
or Arch-Server  ;D

LOL, I guess it could be that. I think of it as being entrusted to instruct new ones. Your also usually expected to be the one to clean up the altar area: dusting, sweeping, cleaning candle wax and replacing candles, filling the oil, trimming candle wicks, making sure the table of preparation has wine and water ready (usually in glass containers), cleaning the censer and other brass & metal things, making sure there is enough incense, and coal, organizing liturgical books and supplies, cleaning icons (usually with Rose Water), making sure icons are in the right places (people take them down for veneration and misplace them after), and sometimes making sure to remind the Priest to do stuff, like bless icons or holy water.

Individually those are small jobs, but together it could be an extra 10-30 minutes depending on how bad things are.

The other altar servers help in the service and may help clean, but I think it's good to have at least one person dedicated to the job so it always gets done.

I'm not a subdeacon but I already do most of this.  Maybe time to ask for a "promotion" ;)

Offline 88Devin12

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Re: Subdeacons
« Reply #31 on: October 17, 2012, 10:56:44 PM »
With orarions on?

What do you mean by "senior"?

If he doesn't feel like doing something he gets to tell the other servers to do it for him  :laugh:

Proto-Server  ;D
or Arch-Server  ;D

LOL, I guess it could be that. I think of it as being entrusted to instruct new ones. Your also usually expected to be the one to clean up the altar area: dusting, sweeping, cleaning candle wax and replacing candles, filling the oil, trimming candle wicks, making sure the table of preparation has wine and water ready (usually in glass containers), cleaning the censer and other brass & metal things, making sure there is enough incense, and coal, organizing liturgical books and supplies, cleaning icons (usually with Rose Water), making sure icons are in the right places (people take them down for veneration and misplace them after), and sometimes making sure to remind the Priest to do stuff, like bless icons or holy water.

Individually those are small jobs, but together it could be an extra 10-30 minutes depending on how bad things are.

The other altar servers help in the service and may help clean, but I think it's good to have at least one person dedicated to the job so it always gets done.

I'm not a subdeacon but I already do most of this.  Maybe time to ask for a "promotion" ;)

I'm not either, as per the earlier posts, that was referring to the role of proto-server, arch-server, sacristan. I could see the subdeacon being given that role.

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Re: Subdeacons
« Reply #32 on: October 17, 2012, 11:02:13 PM »
I know of a young boy who was an altar server at an OCA parish in the USA and really enjoyed it. When his family moved to Bulgaria, he wanted to continue being an altar boy- however, there is no real tradition of altar boys in Bulgaria. What happened instead? The bishop ordained him a subdeacon. Sometimes the family is back in the States and our parish is blessed with the world's littlest subdeacon in full vestments. With no bishop present though, his actual role is the same as an altar boy.
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Re: Subdeacons
« Reply #33 on: October 18, 2012, 03:59:21 AM »
I know of a young boy who was an altar server at an OCA parish in the USA and really enjoyed it. When his family moved to Bulgaria, he wanted to continue being an altar boy- however, there is no real tradition of altar boys in Bulgaria. What happened instead? The bishop ordained him a subdeacon. Sometimes the family is back in the States and our parish is blessed with the world's littlest subdeacon in full vestments. With no bishop present though, his actual role is the same as an altar boy.

When I was in Bulgaria I've noticed there are some teenage boys in subdeacons' vestments. I was quite surprised.

What happens when they would like to marry?

Offline LBK

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Re: Subdeacons
« Reply #34 on: October 18, 2012, 04:30:38 AM »
I know of a young boy who was an altar server at an OCA parish in the USA and really enjoyed it. When his family moved to Bulgaria, he wanted to continue being an altar boy- however, there is no real tradition of altar boys in Bulgaria. What happened instead? The bishop ordained him a subdeacon. Sometimes the family is back in the States and our parish is blessed with the world's littlest subdeacon in full vestments. With no bishop present though, his actual role is the same as an altar boy.

When I was in Bulgaria I've noticed there are some teenage boys in subdeacons' vestments. I was quite surprised.

What happens when they would like to marry?

They might not be subdeacons. Look at my earlier post on the difference in vesting.
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Offline Monk Vasyl

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Re: Subdeacons
« Reply #35 on: October 18, 2012, 09:10:52 AM »
I know of a young boy who was an altar server at an OCA parish in the USA and really enjoyed it. When his family moved to Bulgaria, he wanted to continue being an altar boy- however, there is no real tradition of altar boys in Bulgaria. What happened instead? The bishop ordained him a subdeacon. Sometimes the family is back in the States and our parish is blessed with the world's littlest subdeacon in full vestments. With no bishop present though, his actual role is the same as an altar boy.

When I was in Bulgaria I've noticed there are some teenage boys in subdeacons' vestments. I was quite surprised.

What happens when they would like to marry?

They might not be subdeacons. Look at my earlier post on the difference in vesting.

They could also be "blessed" subdeacons.  Archbishop Job, of eternal memory, blessed both me and another server to ware the subdeacon's orarion.
The unworthy hierodeacon, Vasyl

Offline smithakd

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Re: Subdeacons
« Reply #36 on: December 04, 2012, 06:22:47 PM »
What subdeacons are permitted to do and what subdeacons practically do will probably vary depending on the jurisdiction/liturgical tradition.  I can really only speak of the ROCOR practises here on any level of personal experience.

In ROCOR practise, subdeacons are permitted to touch the altar and the oblations table.  For this reason, subdeacons are able to change the colours of the altar cloths and vestments, as well as move or clean various sacred vessels (which is /really/ helpful).  They will often also function as a 'head altar server' (and potentially a reader, if required).

There are some traditions that have essentially done away with subdeacons (aside from the time between ordaining a man to be subdeacon before Liturgy then deacon after the Anaphora), as well as some traditions that do different things again (I've heard of some traditions where subdeacons will intone litanies, or distribute communion) - but that will depend on the tradition and the bishop, I guess.
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Offline Marc1152

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Re: Subdeacons
« Reply #37 on: December 04, 2012, 10:33:38 PM »
What subdeacons are permitted to do and what subdeacons practically do will probably vary depending on the jurisdiction/liturgical tradition.  I can really only speak of the ROCOR practises here on any level of personal experience.

In ROCOR practise, subdeacons are permitted to touch the altar and the oblations table.  For this reason, subdeacons are able to change the colours of the altar cloths and vestments, as well as move or clean various sacred vessels (which is /really/ helpful).  They will often also function as a 'head altar server' (and potentially a reader, if required).

There are some traditions that have essentially done away with subdeacons (aside from the time between ordaining a man to be subdeacon before Liturgy then deacon after the Anaphora), as well as some traditions that do different things again (I've heard of some traditions where subdeacons will intone litanies, or distribute communion) - but that will depend on the tradition and the bishop, I guess.

Since Bishops visit irregularly, how would a sub deacon learn how to properly vest a Bishop? Ive helped three or four times but not often enough to remember much.
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Re: Subdeacons
« Reply #38 on: December 04, 2012, 10:39:42 PM »
With orarions on?

What do you mean by "senior"?

If he doesn't feel like doing something he gets to tell the other servers to do it for him  :laugh:

Proto-Server  ;D
or Arch-Server  ;D

LOL, I guess it could be that. I think of it as being entrusted to instruct new ones. Your also usually expected to be the one to clean up the altar area: dusting, sweeping, cleaning candle wax and replacing candles, filling the oil, trimming candle wicks, making sure the table of preparation has wine and water ready (usually in glass containers), cleaning the censer and other brass & metal things, making sure there is enough incense, and coal, organizing liturgical books and supplies, cleaning icons (usually with Rose Water), making sure icons are in the right places (people take them down for veneration and misplace them after), and sometimes making sure to remind the Priest to do stuff, like bless icons or holy water.

Individually those are small jobs, but together it could be an extra 10-30 minutes depending on how bad things are.

The other altar servers help in the service and may help clean, but I think it's good to have at least one person dedicated to the job so it always gets done.

I'm not a subdeacon but I already do most of this.  Maybe time to ask for a "promotion" ;)
You can't;
touch the altar or proskomedia table
go through the royal doors when appointed (usually serving and taking the burial shroud out with the bishop)
touch the chalice etc..
distribute communion (ACROD subdeacons can if blessed)
Aren't ordained a subdeacon
chant litanies (depends on jurisdiction)

Even if you are blessed to cross the stole like a subdeacon you still can't do the above.  Sorry, it's the way the rules go.

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Re: Subdeacons
« Reply #39 on: December 04, 2012, 10:42:34 PM »
What subdeacons are permitted to do and what subdeacons practically do will probably vary depending on the jurisdiction/liturgical tradition.  I can really only speak of the ROCOR practises here on any level of personal experience.

In ROCOR practise, subdeacons are permitted to touch the altar and the oblations table.  For this reason, subdeacons are able to change the colours of the altar cloths and vestments, as well as move or clean various sacred vessels (which is /really/ helpful).  They will often also function as a 'head altar server' (and potentially a reader, if required).

There are some traditions that have essentially done away with subdeacons (aside from the time between ordaining a man to be subdeacon before Liturgy then deacon after the Anaphora), as well as some traditions that do different things again (I've heard of some traditions where subdeacons will intone litanies, or distribute communion) - but that will depend on the tradition and the bishop, I guess.

Since Bishops visit irregularly, how would a sub deacon learn how to properly vest a Bishop? Ive helped three or four times but not often enough to remember much.

A good subdeacon knows the ins and outs of each service.  He remembers them OR studies them before hand.  That's how.   
Technically the subdeacon is in service of the deacon during the liturgy (with bishop). 
A subdeacon was also tonsured a reader.  Therefore he can do the functions of a reader. 
He supersedes readers in communion line. Hence he is the first in line to receive communion outside of the altar.

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Re: Subdeacons
« Reply #40 on: December 04, 2012, 10:44:53 PM »
Quote
I know in the Antiochian parish I visit every so often, their altar boys are all dressed as subdeacons.

Not quite. The Greek and Antiochian tradition is for altarboys to be vested in stikharion and orarion (Russian is stikharion only), but there is a difference in how the orarion is arranged for altarboy and subdeacon:

Both have the orarion horizontal at the waist and crossed across the back in an X shape. The subdeacon has the arms of the orarion crossed over into an X across the front, with the ends tucked behind the waistband; the altarboy has the arms pointing vertically, not crossed.

A subtle but important difference.

I've never seen an altar boy wear an oration...

Go to a greek parish.. everyone wears a stole.  they just don't cross it in front.  It's a ridiculous practice.
Most people in my experience that aren't from "everything has to be organized america" will have no clue what you mean by senior altar server.

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Re: Subdeacons
« Reply #41 on: December 04, 2012, 10:52:41 PM »
I've only been to one Antiochian parish that has subdeacons (2), and the priest allows them to each lead the people in one little litany in the service. They also chant the prokeimenon and epistle.

Yes the Arabs allow the subdeacons to actually perform their role a little more than other dioceses/jurisdictions.  Subdeacons were readers before they were subdeacons.  Historically readers had more roles than they do today.  Remember many of our parishes grew without the full traditions.  Technically no one that is not clergy should be reading the epistle or intoning the prokimenon etc...  But in the "everyone has to have a chair in musical chairs america" that we live in you can't step on mrs. johnson's toes when she wants to do all the reader functions with a reader present during the service.

the American-Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Diocese allows certain subdeacons to distribute communion in large parishes.  Don't beat me up for telling you, it's their practice.  Subdeacons historically had much more roles than they do today I think.
Example me and the deacon helped the priest fix up the altar.. there were other guys on the altar getting it ready for Pascha I believe.  Father said, I need to fix the rug that goes in front of the altar table and under it. Some of the guys said "ok I'll do it"  Father said, no deacon ___ and username! and I are the only ones that are able to do this thank you guys though!  Not every parish is strict like that and many slack because they allow the laity to run them over because of the congregationalist parish councils.  However this priest runs the parish not as a democracy and the parish council does not have the "we own the priest he's our employee" attitude like 72.45% of parishes in the USA are ran.   Take that out of the equation and all clergy minor and major get to function on their known roles and it makes for a very well conducted service.  Just like the sluzhebnik calls for.

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Re: Subdeacons
« Reply #42 on: December 04, 2012, 10:55:31 PM »
They are utterly useless.  done.   ;) ;D :P

We're the bishop's flunkies I was told. 

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Re: Subdeacons
« Reply #43 on: December 04, 2012, 10:57:07 PM »
What do subdeacons do during the Liturgy when there is no bishop present?
If not serving stand with my family or sing in the choir and chant the epistle.  Don't worry I'm never going to use the word "ipodiakon" in front of my username. 

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Re: Subdeacons
« Reply #44 on: December 05, 2012, 12:55:24 AM »
You can't;
touch the altar or proskomedia table

In this part of the world altar servers can touch sacrifice table.