Author Topic: Subdeacons  (Read 7380 times)

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Offline mike

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Subdeacons
« on: October 04, 2012, 08:05:07 PM »
What do subdeacons do during the Liturgy when there is no bishop present?
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Offline serb1389

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Re: Subdeacons
« Reply #1 on: October 04, 2012, 09:14:37 PM »
They are utterly useless.  done.   ;) ;D :P
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Offline choy

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Re: Subdeacons
« Reply #2 on: October 04, 2012, 09:40:01 PM »
Fancily dressed altar boys  ;D
« Last Edit: October 04, 2012, 09:40:12 PM by choy »

Offline maryofegypt

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Re: Subdeacons
« Reply #3 on: October 05, 2012, 08:28:21 AM »
In a former parish of ours, they were basically altar server wranglers (and kept the little ones from setting themselves or other things on fire...).  :)

Offline Cyrillic

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Re: Subdeacons
« Reply #4 on: October 05, 2012, 08:52:33 AM »
Fancily dressed altar boys  ;D


You're a subdeacon now? In any case, you do have fancy vestments.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2012, 08:56:01 AM by Cyrillic »
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Offline Αριστοκλής

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Re: Subdeacons
« Reply #5 on: October 05, 2012, 08:56:46 AM »
In our parish the sub-deacon is the best chanter. Never out of work...
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Re: Subdeacons
« Reply #6 on: October 05, 2012, 09:54:02 AM »
What do subdeacons do during the Liturgy when there is no bishop present?

I have been told there is no reason for a subdeacon to even vest if there is no bishop present.
Joseph

Offline choy

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Re: Subdeacons
« Reply #7 on: October 05, 2012, 10:29:23 AM »
Fancily dressed altar boys  ;D


You're a subdeacon now? In any case, you do have fancy vestments.

I don't have an orarion ;)

Offline Cyrillic

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Re: Subdeacons
« Reply #8 on: October 05, 2012, 10:51:36 AM »
Fancily dressed altar boys  ;D


You're a subdeacon now? In any case, you do have fancy vestments.

I don't have an orarion ;)

At least not yet ;)
« Last Edit: October 05, 2012, 10:54:13 AM by Cyrillic »
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Offline Marc1152

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Re: Subdeacons
« Reply #9 on: October 05, 2012, 11:05:18 AM »
What do subdeacons do during the Liturgy when there is no bishop present?

I have been told there is no reason for a subdeacon to even vest if there is no bishop present.

Okay, but shouldnt adult alter servers be Readers or better? 
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Offline choy

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Re: Subdeacons
« Reply #10 on: October 05, 2012, 11:08:00 AM »
Fancily dressed altar boys  ;D


You're a subdeacon now? In any case, you do have fancy vestments.

I don't have an orarion ;)

At least not yet ;)

Maybe not in the Eastern Catholic Church ;)

Offline Cyrillic

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Re: Subdeacons
« Reply #11 on: October 05, 2012, 11:23:16 AM »
Fancily dressed altar boys  ;D


You're a subdeacon now? In any case, you do have fancy vestments.

I don't have an orarion ;)

At least not yet ;)

Maybe not in the Eastern Catholic Church ;)

I see what you're getting at  ;)

(my eyes start to hurt from all that blinking)
« Last Edit: October 05, 2012, 11:23:28 AM by Cyrillic »
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Offline 88Devin12

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Re: Subdeacons
« Reply #12 on: October 05, 2012, 12:00:54 PM »
From how I understand it, traditionally there isn't an altar boy role. Rather, altar boys are assumed to be readers/subdeacons in training.

I know in the Antiochian parish I visit every so often, their altar boys are all dressed as subdeacons. However, their Bishop ordains some of them and allows them to get married after.

Yet in the OCA, or at least under our Bishop, and traditionally, you must be married prior to being made a subdeacon.

If there is just one subdeacon among several altar servers, he may act as sacristan.

Offline mike

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Re: Subdeacons
« Reply #13 on: October 05, 2012, 12:08:39 PM »
If there is just one subdeacon among several altar servers, he may act as sacristan.

Act as who?
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Offline choy

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Re: Subdeacons
« Reply #14 on: October 05, 2012, 12:55:43 PM »

I see what you're getting at  ;)

(my eyes start to hurt from all that blinking)

I just feel that I do not belong which is why I was alwas hesitant to pursue a vocation where I am today.

Offline age234

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Re: Subdeacons
« Reply #15 on: October 05, 2012, 01:42:25 PM »
I've only been to one Antiochian parish that has subdeacons (2), and the priest allows them to each lead the people in one little litany in the service. They also chant the prokeimenon and epistle.

Offline LBK

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Re: Subdeacons
« Reply #16 on: October 05, 2012, 06:18:13 PM »
Quote
I know in the Antiochian parish I visit every so often, their altar boys are all dressed as subdeacons.

Not quite. The Greek and Antiochian tradition is for altarboys to be vested in stikharion and orarion (Russian is stikharion only), but there is a difference in how the orarion is arranged for altarboy and subdeacon:

Both have the orarion horizontal at the waist and crossed across the back in an X shape. The subdeacon has the arms of the orarion crossed over into an X across the front, with the ends tucked behind the waistband; the altarboy has the arms pointing vertically, not crossed.

A subtle but important difference.
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Offline 88Devin12

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Re: Subdeacons
« Reply #17 on: October 05, 2012, 07:08:12 PM »
Quote
I know in the Antiochian parish I visit every so often, their altar boys are all dressed as subdeacons.

Not quite. The Greek and Antiochian tradition is for altarboys to be vested in stikharion and orarion (Russian is stikharion only), but there is a difference in how the orarion is arranged for altarboy and subdeacon:

Both have the orarion horizontal at the waist and crossed across the back in an X shape. The subdeacon has the arms of the orarion crossed over into an X across the front, with the ends tucked behind the waistband; the altarboy has the arms pointing vertically, not crossed.

A subtle but important difference.

I think theirs are crossed in front, not vertical. It may be a slight mistake in vesting in that parish though. (like some parishes putting Archangels Michael & Gabriel on the wrong sides)
« Last Edit: October 05, 2012, 07:08:36 PM by 88Devin12 »

Offline Orthodox11

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Re: Subdeacons
« Reply #18 on: October 05, 2012, 07:10:35 PM »
A subtle but important difference.

So subtle it is often ignored.

Offline LBK

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Re: Subdeacons
« Reply #19 on: October 05, 2012, 07:36:18 PM »
Quote
(like some parishes putting Archangels Michael & Gabriel on the wrong sides)

True ...  :P ::)
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Offline serb1389

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Re: Subdeacons
« Reply #20 on: October 05, 2012, 09:34:40 PM »
Quote
(like some parishes putting Archangels Michael & Gabriel on the wrong sides)

True ...  :P ::)

We have that.  Ugh.
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Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: Subdeacons
« Reply #21 on: October 05, 2012, 10:20:33 PM »
Quote
I know in the Antiochian parish I visit every so often, their altar boys are all dressed as subdeacons.

Not quite. The Greek and Antiochian tradition is for altarboys to be vested in stikharion and orarion (Russian is stikharion only), but there is a difference in how the orarion is arranged for altarboy and subdeacon:

Both have the orarion horizontal at the waist and crossed across the back in an X shape. The subdeacon has the arms of the orarion crossed over into an X across the front, with the ends tucked behind the waistband; the altarboy has the arms pointing vertically, not crossed.

A subtle but important difference.

In my parish, altar boys wear sticharions but not orarions--dresses but no floppy things.
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Offline age234

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Re: Subdeacons
« Reply #22 on: October 06, 2012, 12:55:23 AM »
Quote
I know in the Antiochian parish I visit every so often, their altar boys are all dressed as subdeacons.

Not quite. The Greek and Antiochian tradition is for altarboys to be vested in stikharion and orarion (Russian is stikharion only), but there is a difference in how the orarion is arranged for altarboy and subdeacon:

Both have the orarion horizontal at the waist and crossed across the back in an X shape. The subdeacon has the arms of the orarion crossed over into an X across the front, with the ends tucked behind the waistband; the altarboy has the arms pointing vertically, not crossed.

A subtle but important difference.

I've never seen an altar boy wear an oration...

Offline mildert

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Re: Subdeacons
« Reply #23 on: October 16, 2012, 01:07:00 PM »
What do subdeacons do during the Liturgy when there is no bishop present?

Act as senior Altar servers.
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Offline mike

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Re: Subdeacons
« Reply #24 on: October 16, 2012, 01:20:54 PM »
What do subdeacons do during the Liturgy when there is no bishop present?

Act as senior Altar servers.

With orarions on?

What do you mean by "senior"?
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Offline sheenj

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Re: Subdeacons
« Reply #25 on: October 16, 2012, 01:23:37 PM »
What do subdeacons do during the Liturgy when there is no bishop present?

Act as senior Altar servers.

With orarions on?

What do you mean by "senior"?

Probably means he gets first dibs on readings.

Offline choy

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Re: Subdeacons
« Reply #26 on: October 16, 2012, 02:47:59 PM »
With orarions on?

What do you mean by "senior"?

If he doesn't feel like doing something he gets to tell the other servers to do it for him  :laugh:

Proto-Server  ;D
or Arch-Server  ;D
« Last Edit: October 16, 2012, 02:48:11 PM by choy »

Offline mike

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Re: Subdeacons
« Reply #27 on: October 16, 2012, 03:33:17 PM »
If he doesn't feel like doing something he gets to tell the other servers to do it for him  :laugh:

I stopped serving before I reached that level :(
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Offline 88Devin12

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Re: Subdeacons
« Reply #28 on: October 17, 2012, 12:58:14 AM »
With orarions on?

What do you mean by "senior"?

If he doesn't feel like doing something he gets to tell the other servers to do it for him  :laugh:

Proto-Server  ;D
or Arch-Server  ;D

LOL, I guess it could be that. I think of it as being entrusted to instruct new ones. Your also usually expected to be the one to clean up the altar area: dusting, sweeping, cleaning candle wax and replacing candles, filling the oil, trimming candle wicks, making sure the table of preparation has wine and water ready (usually in glass containers), cleaning the censer and other brass & metal things, making sure there is enough incense, and coal, organizing liturgical books and supplies, cleaning icons (usually with Rose Water), making sure icons are in the right places (people take them down for veneration and misplace them after), and sometimes making sure to remind the Priest to do stuff, like bless icons or holy water.

Individually those are small jobs, but together it could be an extra 10-30 minutes depending on how bad things are.

The other altar servers help in the service and may help clean, but I think it's good to have at least one person dedicated to the job so it always gets done.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2012, 01:01:01 AM by 88Devin12 »

Offline HabteSelassie

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Re: Subdeacons
« Reply #29 on: October 17, 2012, 03:25:45 PM »
Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

They are utterly useless.  done.   ;) ;D :P


Weren't they always? I mean these lazy deacons, just standing around doing

 ..EVERYTHING at the same time ;)

stay blessed,
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« Last Edit: October 17, 2012, 03:26:49 PM by HabteSelassie »
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Offline choy

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Re: Subdeacons
« Reply #30 on: October 17, 2012, 03:30:27 PM »
With orarions on?

What do you mean by "senior"?

If he doesn't feel like doing something he gets to tell the other servers to do it for him  :laugh:

Proto-Server  ;D
or Arch-Server  ;D

LOL, I guess it could be that. I think of it as being entrusted to instruct new ones. Your also usually expected to be the one to clean up the altar area: dusting, sweeping, cleaning candle wax and replacing candles, filling the oil, trimming candle wicks, making sure the table of preparation has wine and water ready (usually in glass containers), cleaning the censer and other brass & metal things, making sure there is enough incense, and coal, organizing liturgical books and supplies, cleaning icons (usually with Rose Water), making sure icons are in the right places (people take them down for veneration and misplace them after), and sometimes making sure to remind the Priest to do stuff, like bless icons or holy water.

Individually those are small jobs, but together it could be an extra 10-30 minutes depending on how bad things are.

The other altar servers help in the service and may help clean, but I think it's good to have at least one person dedicated to the job so it always gets done.

I'm not a subdeacon but I already do most of this.  Maybe time to ask for a "promotion" ;)

Offline 88Devin12

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Re: Subdeacons
« Reply #31 on: October 17, 2012, 10:56:44 PM »
With orarions on?

What do you mean by "senior"?

If he doesn't feel like doing something he gets to tell the other servers to do it for him  :laugh:

Proto-Server  ;D
or Arch-Server  ;D

LOL, I guess it could be that. I think of it as being entrusted to instruct new ones. Your also usually expected to be the one to clean up the altar area: dusting, sweeping, cleaning candle wax and replacing candles, filling the oil, trimming candle wicks, making sure the table of preparation has wine and water ready (usually in glass containers), cleaning the censer and other brass & metal things, making sure there is enough incense, and coal, organizing liturgical books and supplies, cleaning icons (usually with Rose Water), making sure icons are in the right places (people take them down for veneration and misplace them after), and sometimes making sure to remind the Priest to do stuff, like bless icons or holy water.

Individually those are small jobs, but together it could be an extra 10-30 minutes depending on how bad things are.

The other altar servers help in the service and may help clean, but I think it's good to have at least one person dedicated to the job so it always gets done.

I'm not a subdeacon but I already do most of this.  Maybe time to ask for a "promotion" ;)

I'm not either, as per the earlier posts, that was referring to the role of proto-server, arch-server, sacristan. I could see the subdeacon being given that role.

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Re: Subdeacons
« Reply #32 on: October 17, 2012, 11:02:13 PM »
I know of a young boy who was an altar server at an OCA parish in the USA and really enjoyed it. When his family moved to Bulgaria, he wanted to continue being an altar boy- however, there is no real tradition of altar boys in Bulgaria. What happened instead? The bishop ordained him a subdeacon. Sometimes the family is back in the States and our parish is blessed with the world's littlest subdeacon in full vestments. With no bishop present though, his actual role is the same as an altar boy.

Offline mike

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Re: Subdeacons
« Reply #33 on: October 18, 2012, 03:59:21 AM »
I know of a young boy who was an altar server at an OCA parish in the USA and really enjoyed it. When his family moved to Bulgaria, he wanted to continue being an altar boy- however, there is no real tradition of altar boys in Bulgaria. What happened instead? The bishop ordained him a subdeacon. Sometimes the family is back in the States and our parish is blessed with the world's littlest subdeacon in full vestments. With no bishop present though, his actual role is the same as an altar boy.

When I was in Bulgaria I've noticed there are some teenage boys in subdeacons' vestments. I was quite surprised.

What happens when they would like to marry?
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Offline LBK

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Re: Subdeacons
« Reply #34 on: October 18, 2012, 04:30:38 AM »
I know of a young boy who was an altar server at an OCA parish in the USA and really enjoyed it. When his family moved to Bulgaria, he wanted to continue being an altar boy- however, there is no real tradition of altar boys in Bulgaria. What happened instead? The bishop ordained him a subdeacon. Sometimes the family is back in the States and our parish is blessed with the world's littlest subdeacon in full vestments. With no bishop present though, his actual role is the same as an altar boy.

When I was in Bulgaria I've noticed there are some teenage boys in subdeacons' vestments. I was quite surprised.

What happens when they would like to marry?

They might not be subdeacons. Look at my earlier post on the difference in vesting.
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Offline Monk Vasyl

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Re: Subdeacons
« Reply #35 on: October 18, 2012, 09:10:52 AM »
I know of a young boy who was an altar server at an OCA parish in the USA and really enjoyed it. When his family moved to Bulgaria, he wanted to continue being an altar boy- however, there is no real tradition of altar boys in Bulgaria. What happened instead? The bishop ordained him a subdeacon. Sometimes the family is back in the States and our parish is blessed with the world's littlest subdeacon in full vestments. With no bishop present though, his actual role is the same as an altar boy.

When I was in Bulgaria I've noticed there are some teenage boys in subdeacons' vestments. I was quite surprised.

What happens when they would like to marry?

They might not be subdeacons. Look at my earlier post on the difference in vesting.

They could also be "blessed" subdeacons.  Archbishop Job, of eternal memory, blessed both me and another server to ware the subdeacon's orarion.
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Offline smithakd

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Re: Subdeacons
« Reply #36 on: December 04, 2012, 06:22:47 PM »
What subdeacons are permitted to do and what subdeacons practically do will probably vary depending on the jurisdiction/liturgical tradition.  I can really only speak of the ROCOR practises here on any level of personal experience.

In ROCOR practise, subdeacons are permitted to touch the altar and the oblations table.  For this reason, subdeacons are able to change the colours of the altar cloths and vestments, as well as move or clean various sacred vessels (which is /really/ helpful).  They will often also function as a 'head altar server' (and potentially a reader, if required).

There are some traditions that have essentially done away with subdeacons (aside from the time between ordaining a man to be subdeacon before Liturgy then deacon after the Anaphora), as well as some traditions that do different things again (I've heard of some traditions where subdeacons will intone litanies, or distribute communion) - but that will depend on the tradition and the bishop, I guess.
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Offline Marc1152

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Re: Subdeacons
« Reply #37 on: December 04, 2012, 10:33:38 PM »
What subdeacons are permitted to do and what subdeacons practically do will probably vary depending on the jurisdiction/liturgical tradition.  I can really only speak of the ROCOR practises here on any level of personal experience.

In ROCOR practise, subdeacons are permitted to touch the altar and the oblations table.  For this reason, subdeacons are able to change the colours of the altar cloths and vestments, as well as move or clean various sacred vessels (which is /really/ helpful).  They will often also function as a 'head altar server' (and potentially a reader, if required).

There are some traditions that have essentially done away with subdeacons (aside from the time between ordaining a man to be subdeacon before Liturgy then deacon after the Anaphora), as well as some traditions that do different things again (I've heard of some traditions where subdeacons will intone litanies, or distribute communion) - but that will depend on the tradition and the bishop, I guess.

Since Bishops visit irregularly, how would a sub deacon learn how to properly vest a Bishop? Ive helped three or four times but not often enough to remember much.
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Re: Subdeacons
« Reply #38 on: December 04, 2012, 10:39:42 PM »
With orarions on?

What do you mean by "senior"?

If he doesn't feel like doing something he gets to tell the other servers to do it for him  :laugh:

Proto-Server  ;D
or Arch-Server  ;D

LOL, I guess it could be that. I think of it as being entrusted to instruct new ones. Your also usually expected to be the one to clean up the altar area: dusting, sweeping, cleaning candle wax and replacing candles, filling the oil, trimming candle wicks, making sure the table of preparation has wine and water ready (usually in glass containers), cleaning the censer and other brass & metal things, making sure there is enough incense, and coal, organizing liturgical books and supplies, cleaning icons (usually with Rose Water), making sure icons are in the right places (people take them down for veneration and misplace them after), and sometimes making sure to remind the Priest to do stuff, like bless icons or holy water.

Individually those are small jobs, but together it could be an extra 10-30 minutes depending on how bad things are.

The other altar servers help in the service and may help clean, but I think it's good to have at least one person dedicated to the job so it always gets done.

I'm not a subdeacon but I already do most of this.  Maybe time to ask for a "promotion" ;)
You can't;
touch the altar or proskomedia table
go through the royal doors when appointed (usually serving and taking the burial shroud out with the bishop)
touch the chalice etc..
distribute communion (ACROD subdeacons can if blessed)
Aren't ordained a subdeacon
chant litanies (depends on jurisdiction)

Even if you are blessed to cross the stole like a subdeacon you still can't do the above.  Sorry, it's the way the rules go.

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Re: Subdeacons
« Reply #39 on: December 04, 2012, 10:42:34 PM »
What subdeacons are permitted to do and what subdeacons practically do will probably vary depending on the jurisdiction/liturgical tradition.  I can really only speak of the ROCOR practises here on any level of personal experience.

In ROCOR practise, subdeacons are permitted to touch the altar and the oblations table.  For this reason, subdeacons are able to change the colours of the altar cloths and vestments, as well as move or clean various sacred vessels (which is /really/ helpful).  They will often also function as a 'head altar server' (and potentially a reader, if required).

There are some traditions that have essentially done away with subdeacons (aside from the time between ordaining a man to be subdeacon before Liturgy then deacon after the Anaphora), as well as some traditions that do different things again (I've heard of some traditions where subdeacons will intone litanies, or distribute communion) - but that will depend on the tradition and the bishop, I guess.

Since Bishops visit irregularly, how would a sub deacon learn how to properly vest a Bishop? Ive helped three or four times but not often enough to remember much.

A good subdeacon knows the ins and outs of each service.  He remembers them OR studies them before hand.  That's how.   
Technically the subdeacon is in service of the deacon during the liturgy (with bishop). 
A subdeacon was also tonsured a reader.  Therefore he can do the functions of a reader. 
He supersedes readers in communion line. Hence he is the first in line to receive communion outside of the altar.

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Re: Subdeacons
« Reply #40 on: December 04, 2012, 10:44:53 PM »
Quote
I know in the Antiochian parish I visit every so often, their altar boys are all dressed as subdeacons.

Not quite. The Greek and Antiochian tradition is for altarboys to be vested in stikharion and orarion (Russian is stikharion only), but there is a difference in how the orarion is arranged for altarboy and subdeacon:

Both have the orarion horizontal at the waist and crossed across the back in an X shape. The subdeacon has the arms of the orarion crossed over into an X across the front, with the ends tucked behind the waistband; the altarboy has the arms pointing vertically, not crossed.

A subtle but important difference.

I've never seen an altar boy wear an oration...

Go to a greek parish.. everyone wears a stole.  they just don't cross it in front.  It's a ridiculous practice.
Most people in my experience that aren't from "everything has to be organized america" will have no clue what you mean by senior altar server.

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Re: Subdeacons
« Reply #41 on: December 04, 2012, 10:52:41 PM »
I've only been to one Antiochian parish that has subdeacons (2), and the priest allows them to each lead the people in one little litany in the service. They also chant the prokeimenon and epistle.

Yes the Arabs allow the subdeacons to actually perform their role a little more than other dioceses/jurisdictions.  Subdeacons were readers before they were subdeacons.  Historically readers had more roles than they do today.  Remember many of our parishes grew without the full traditions.  Technically no one that is not clergy should be reading the epistle or intoning the prokimenon etc...  But in the "everyone has to have a chair in musical chairs america" that we live in you can't step on mrs. johnson's toes when she wants to do all the reader functions with a reader present during the service.

the American-Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Diocese allows certain subdeacons to distribute communion in large parishes.  Don't beat me up for telling you, it's their practice.  Subdeacons historically had much more roles than they do today I think.
Example me and the deacon helped the priest fix up the altar.. there were other guys on the altar getting it ready for Pascha I believe.  Father said, I need to fix the rug that goes in front of the altar table and under it. Some of the guys said "ok I'll do it"  Father said, no deacon ___ and username! and I are the only ones that are able to do this thank you guys though!  Not every parish is strict like that and many slack because they allow the laity to run them over because of the congregationalist parish councils.  However this priest runs the parish not as a democracy and the parish council does not have the "we own the priest he's our employee" attitude like 72.45% of parishes in the USA are ran.   Take that out of the equation and all clergy minor and major get to function on their known roles and it makes for a very well conducted service.  Just like the sluzhebnik calls for.

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Re: Subdeacons
« Reply #42 on: December 04, 2012, 10:55:31 PM »
They are utterly useless.  done.   ;) ;D :P

We're the bishop's flunkies I was told. 

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Re: Subdeacons
« Reply #43 on: December 04, 2012, 10:57:07 PM »
What do subdeacons do during the Liturgy when there is no bishop present?
If not serving stand with my family or sing in the choir and chant the epistle.  Don't worry I'm never going to use the word "ipodiakon" in front of my username. 

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Re: Subdeacons
« Reply #44 on: December 05, 2012, 12:55:24 AM »
You can't;
touch the altar or proskomedia table

In this part of the world altar servers can touch sacrifice table.
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Re: Subdeacons
« Reply #45 on: December 05, 2012, 12:15:09 PM »
They are utterly useless.  done.   ;) ;D :P

We're the bishop's flunkies I was told. 

My husband refers to himself as a liturgical potted plant, or Chief Censer Holder.
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Re: Subdeacons
« Reply #46 on: December 05, 2012, 01:40:57 PM »
You can't;
touch the altar or proskomedia table

In this part of the world altar servers can touch sacrifice table.

How recent that custom is?
The user should probably be sleeping by now.

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Re: Subdeacons
« Reply #47 on: December 05, 2012, 02:54:26 PM »
They are utterly useless.  done.   ;) ;D :P

We're the bishop's flunkies I was told.  

My husband refers to himself as a liturgical potted plant, or Chief Censer Holder.

My late father used to refer to sub-deacons as 'glorified (he didn't mean elevated to Sainthood either! lol) altar boys.' He would always chuckle at the memory of a headline in the Buffalo, NY paper following a huge pan-Orthodox liturgy during world war two which was attended by several thousand at the local concert hall during which several Greek altar boys were made sub-deacons by the then Archbishop Athenagoras. My dad was a newly ordained priest at the time and he remembered it well. The service was long, it was a hot summer Sunday and two of the about to be newly minted sub-deacons passed out at the critical moment. The headline ran: "Would-be Clerics Faint during Lengthy Service." Oh well....
« Last Edit: December 05, 2012, 02:54:59 PM by podkarpatska »

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Re: Subdeacons
« Reply #48 on: December 05, 2012, 04:43:58 PM »
I'm just a Reader (which I too refer to as "a glorified altar boy"  ;D ) but I pretty regularly set up the altar for feasts, ironing the altar linens and putting them on the altar and preparation tables, changing out the candles, etc. My priest told me he gave me an 'official' blessing to do so. I still, though, have to use only the Deacon doors. I just judge the straightness of the altar table cloth as best I can from the sides.


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Re: Subdeacons
« Reply #49 on: December 05, 2012, 05:45:14 PM »
You can't;
touch the altar or proskomedia table

In this part of the world altar servers can touch sacrifice table.

How recent that custom is?

No idea.
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Re: Subdeacons
« Reply #50 on: December 05, 2012, 08:07:10 PM »
I'm just a Reader (which I too refer to as "a glorified altar boy"  ;D ) but I pretty regularly set up the altar for feasts, ironing the altar linens and putting them on the altar and preparation tables, changing out the candles, etc. My priest told me he gave me an 'official' blessing to do so. I still, though, have to use only the Deacon doors. I just judge the straightness of the altar table cloth as best I can from the sides.

Same here.  My priest tried to get me ordained as a Sub-deacon because I was doing all this anyway.  The Bishop tonsured me a Reader and did not seem to express any objection to me continuing what I was doing with the Priest's blessing.
I would be happy to agree with you, but then both of us would be wrong.

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Re: Subdeacons
« Reply #51 on: December 06, 2012, 02:36:32 AM »
I'm just a Reader (which I too refer to as "a glorified altar boy"  ;D ) but I pretty regularly set up the altar for feasts, ironing the altar linens and putting them on the altar and preparation tables, changing out the candles, etc. My priest told me he gave me an 'official' blessing to do so. I still, though, have to use only the Deacon doors. I just judge the straightness of the altar table cloth as best I can from the sides.



your priest may have "gave you his blessing" but try it in front of the bishop.  Just sayin' not everything priests let altar helpers do is exactly what the bishop would do.  And for priests its easy to get away with because the bishop doesn't come around that often to many parishes.

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Re: Subdeacons
« Reply #52 on: December 06, 2012, 02:40:41 AM »
I'm just a Reader (which I too refer to as "a glorified altar boy"  ;D ) but I pretty regularly set up the altar for feasts, ironing the altar linens and putting them on the altar and preparation tables, changing out the candles, etc. My priest told me he gave me an 'official' blessing to do so. I still, though, have to use only the Deacon doors. I just judge the straightness of the altar table cloth as best I can from the sides.

Same here.  My priest tried to get me ordained as a Sub-deacon because I was doing all this anyway.  The Bishop tonsured me a Reader and did not seem to express any objection to me continuing what I was doing with the Priest's blessing.
In my experience the bishop may have been cool that time but have him pop in and catch ya doing it. If you have spent time with a rule bending priest who makes up his own liturgics and introduces latin bits and pieces on purpose during certain feasts and makes up his own words when reading the gospel, singles out people not-so-subtly in his homilies, screams at congregants, talks down to them and then hides in the altar and on and on then you would understand my dislike for "rule bending".  I wish the bishop would stop by for a weekend.  One hasn't visited in my estimation since 1996.

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Re: Subdeacons
« Reply #53 on: December 28, 2012, 12:37:39 AM »
You can't;
touch the altar or proskomedia table

In this part of the world altar servers can touch sacrifice table.
Same here. I refill the oil in the lamps, place/remove icons from under the altar, etc.
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Re: Subdeacons
« Reply #54 on: December 28, 2012, 03:49:09 AM »
They are utterly useless.  done.   ;) ;D :P

No, they aren't. Subdeaconhood can be included in Facebook and OC.net usernames and profiles. That makes posts a lot more convincing.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2012, 03:51:07 AM by Alpo »
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Re: Subdeacons
« Reply #55 on: December 28, 2012, 07:25:30 AM »
They are utterly useless.  done.   ;) ;D :P

No, they aren't. Subdeaconhood can be included in Facebook and OC.net usernames and profiles. That makes posts a lot more convincing.

 ;D
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Re: Subdeacons
« Reply #56 on: December 28, 2012, 08:42:38 AM »
You can't;
touch the altar or proskomedia table

In this part of the world altar servers can touch sacrifice table.
Same here. I refill the oil in the lamps, place/remove icons from under the altar, etc.

It looks like I meant table of preparation...
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Offline Marc1152

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Re: Subdeacons
« Reply #57 on: December 28, 2012, 11:36:41 AM »
You can't;
touch the altar or proskomedia table

In this part of the world altar servers can touch sacrifice table.
Same here. I refill the oil in the lamps, place/remove icons from under the altar, etc.

It looks like I meant table of preparation...

Right..In Rocor we can fill lamps and putter around the table of preparation but can not touch the Altar Table
Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm

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Re: Subdeacons
« Reply #58 on: December 28, 2012, 02:48:01 PM »
You can't;
touch the altar or proskomedia table

In this part of the world altar servers can touch sacrifice table.
Same here. I refill the oil in the lamps, place/remove icons from under the altar, etc.

It looks like I meant table of preparation...
Ah! I'm sorry! That as well, though the only real reason I've had to touch it was to place the zeon there.
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Re: Subdeacons
« Reply #59 on: December 28, 2012, 04:53:51 PM »
I am a subdeacon and have served in both ROCOR and Antiochian parishes as I moved around the country.

A Subdeacon's primary role is to serve as an assistant to the Bishop when he visits a parish, to assist him in robing and disrobing, provide him the symbols of his office and assist him by  holding the Dikirion (Greek: δικήριον or δίκηρον) and trikirion (τρικήριον or τρίκηρον) or liturgical candlesticks, used by a bishop of the Eastern Orthodox Churches to bless the clergy and faithful. Our placement is so  the bishop need only hold out his hands and the candles are there for his use and  our hands are there to received them and return them to the altar. We also position and remove the orlet  or eagle carpet that the bishop stands on when he blesses the people or gives his sermon. Inside the altar the subdeacon is basically at the bishops beckon and call for what ever the bishop wishes to be done. After the service I usually follow the bishop and assist him during the visit by getting his food, holding down the flood of those seeking to crush him as they seek his blessing etc. In ROCOR , I was assigned a retired bishop to assist  at Liturgies that he was present in but not serving. As many  Bishops are elderly, often the subdeacon assists them up and down stairs by offering them a steady arm or a hand and assures that they do not trip or fall injuring themselves.

When the bishop is not present I serve as a senior altar service, train new altar boys, monitor  the behavior of the boys behind the altar to assure respect and humble behavior is exhibited during the liturgical services. After wards I assist in the clean up of the Holy place assuring dust and candle spills are taken care of properly. At the end of the service I lead the prayers after communion for the congregation (a pious practice peculiar to my current parish). I also am the Catechumen Director in my parish and assist the inquirers and catechumen in meeting requirements that will lead to their baptism/chrismation.


« Last Edit: December 29, 2012, 11:41:51 PM by Thomas »
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Re: Subdeacons
« Reply #60 on: December 28, 2012, 08:44:06 PM »
They are utterly useless.  done.   ;) ;D :P

No, they aren't. Subdeaconhood can be included in Facebook and OC.net usernames and profiles. That makes posts a lot more convincing.

whatever helps you sleep at night.   ;) ;D
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Re: Subdeacons
« Reply #61 on: December 02, 2013, 01:37:31 PM »
Altar serves wearing subdeacon's vestment ??? And he's so little guy...



« Last Edit: December 02, 2013, 01:38:31 PM by Dominika »
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Re: Subdeacons
« Reply #62 on: December 02, 2013, 02:01:54 PM »
^ Ha ha...I've written about the boys fainting in 1944 at a pan-Orthodox Liturgy my dad participated in at Buffalo, NY. The headline read ' Would be Clerics Faint during four hour service.'   :)

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Re: Subdeacons
« Reply #63 on: December 02, 2013, 02:04:33 PM »
LOL.
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Re: Subdeacons
« Reply #64 on: December 02, 2013, 07:17:54 PM »
Altar serves wearing subdeacon's vestment ??? And he's so little guy...



I'm more curious about the chain the deacon is wearing over his vestments...
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Re: Subdeacons
« Reply #65 on: December 02, 2013, 07:23:37 PM »
I'm more curious about the chain the deacon is wearing over his vestments...

LOL

Panagia?
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Re: Subdeacons
« Reply #66 on: December 08, 2013, 02:55:08 AM »
From how I understand it, traditionally there isn't an altar boy role. Rather, altar boys are assumed to be readers/subdeacons in training.

I know in the Antiochian parish I visit every so often, their altar boys are all dressed as subdeacons. However, their Bishop ordains some of them and allows them to get married after.

Yet in the OCA, or at least under our Bishop, and traditionally, you must be married prior to being made a subdeacon.

If there is just one subdeacon among several altar servers, he may act as sacristan.

The only difference between the vestments of an altar server and a sub-deacon is that the sub-deacon crosses his orarion over his chest. An altar server wears is straight, so what you thought were sub-deacons were probably altar servers. However, they are still blessed by the Bishop to the minor order of candle bearer.

Offline frjohnmorris

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Re: Subdeacons
« Reply #67 on: December 08, 2013, 04:05:44 AM »
They are utterly useless.  done.   ;) ;D :P

We may be the only Orthodox who do it, but a sub-deacon can chant the Great Litany and the two Little Litanies during the Divine Liturgy. It is always a very good idea to have a sub-deacon or other adult in the Altar to watch the Altar Boys and make them behave.

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Re: Subdeacons
« Reply #68 on: December 08, 2013, 11:05:45 AM »
The only difference between the vestments of an altar server and a sub-deacon is that the sub-deacon crosses his orarion over his chest. An altar server wears is straight, so what you thought were sub-deacons were probably altar servers. However, they are still blessed by the Bishop to the minor order of candle bearer.

Russian tradition does not use orarions for servers.
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Re: Subdeacons
« Reply #69 on: December 08, 2013, 11:20:26 AM »
Altar serves wearing subdeacon's vestment ??? And he's so little guy...



I'm more curious about the chain the deacon is wearing over his vestments...

I'm even more curious about moustache of the hierarch. That kind of moustache should be obligatory for every clergyman.
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Offline frjohnmorris

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Re: Subdeacons
« Reply #70 on: December 08, 2013, 11:55:22 AM »
The only difference between the vestments of an altar server and a sub-deacon is that the sub-deacon crosses his orarion over his chest. An altar server wears is straight, so what you thought were sub-deacons were probably altar servers. However, they are still blessed by the Bishop to the minor order of candle bearer.

Russian tradition does not use orarions for servers.

Actually, I don't either because the boys get them all tangled up or they fall off, but it is part of the Antiochian tradition.

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Offline ilyazhito

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Re: Subdeacons
« Reply #71 on: March 20, 2014, 05:20:01 PM »
Altar serves wearing subdeacon's vestment ??? And he's so little guy...



I'm more curious about the chain the deacon is wearing over his vestments...
The deacon is wearing a cross. His rank would be Stavrophore Proto-/Archdeacon (he wears a kalimafki and has a double-length orarion, although that is standard for non-Russian churches). Priests and even Deacons who are outside the Russian tradition can receive crosses as an award for service.

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Re: Subdeacons
« Reply #72 on: March 21, 2014, 05:32:19 PM »
The deacon is wearing a cross. His rank would be Stavrophore Proto-/Archdeacon (he wears a kalimafki and has a double-length orarion, although that is standard for non-Russian churches). Priests and even Deacons who are outside the Russian tradition can receive crosses as an award for service.

Wow, I never heard of such a thing. 
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Offline frjohnmorris

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Re: Subdeacons
« Reply #73 on: March 21, 2014, 05:48:32 PM »
The deacon is wearing a cross. His rank would be Stavrophore Proto-/Archdeacon (he wears a kalimafki and has a double-length orarion, although that is standard for non-Russian churches). Priests and even Deacons who are outside the Russian tradition can receive crosses as an award for service.

Wow, I never heard of such a thing. 

I also know of no Orthodox tradition in which a deacon wears a cross. The reason that all Russian Priests wear crosses is that one of the Tsarinas, I believe that it was Alexandria, was kissing the hands of deacons. So that she would who was a Priest and who was a Deacon,  Russian Priests began to wear crosses with different kinds of crosses indicating their rank. In other Orthodox traditions Priest have to be awarded the right to wear a cross. In Antiochian tradition, only an Archpriest or Arcimandrite wears a cross.

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Offline podkarpatska

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Re: Subdeacons
« Reply #74 on: March 21, 2014, 07:08:48 PM »
They are utterly useless.  done.   ;) ;D :P

We may be the only Orthodox who do it, but a sub-deacon can chant the Great Litany and the two Little Litanies during the Divine Liturgy. It is always a very good idea to have a sub-deacon or other adult in the Altar to watch the Altar Boys and make them behave.

In ACROD, I've seen subsections chant one of the two lesser litanies, but not the Great and then only with a special blessing from the Bishop.

Offline podkarpatska

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Re: Subdeacons
« Reply #75 on: March 21, 2014, 07:45:15 PM »
They are utterly useless.  done.   ;) ;D :P

We may be the only Orthodox who do it, but a sub-deacon can chant the Great Litany and the two Little Litanies during the Divine Liturgy. It is always a very good idea to have a sub-deacon or other adult in the Altar to watch the Altar Boys and make them behave.

In ACROD, I've seen subsections chant one of the two lesser litanies, but not the Great and then only with a special blessing from the Bishop.

I'm pretty sure the same software techs that developed Boeing's tracking software had something to do with Android's auto-correct function...

Obviously I meant "subdeacons"  not "subsections" lest anyone fear yet another western  oddity is lurking within St. Peter Mohyla' s rubrics...
« Last Edit: March 21, 2014, 07:45:45 PM by podkarpatska »

Offline Antonis

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Re: Subdeacons
« Reply #76 on: March 24, 2014, 08:52:39 PM »
I have seen pictures of Greek-tradition altar boys wearing orarion-like vestments whose ends come together at the chest in a "v" but stop there. They appear to be sewn permanently that way, so that they would be slid over the head on top of the sticharion. Very peculiar to my eyes, I've never seen them in person. Any idea what they might be?
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Re: Subdeacons
« Reply #77 on: March 27, 2014, 11:08:03 PM »
I have seen pictures of Greek-tradition altar boys wearing orarion-like vestments whose ends come together at the chest in a "v" but stop there. They appear to be sewn permanently that way, so that they would be slid over the head on top of the sticharion. Very peculiar to my eyes, I've never seen them in person. Any idea what they might be?
Anyone?  :P
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Re: Subdeacons
« Reply #78 on: March 27, 2014, 11:14:04 PM »
I have seen pictures of Greek-tradition altar boys wearing orarion-like vestments whose ends come together at the chest in a "v" but stop there. They appear to be sewn permanently that way, so that they would be slid over the head on top of the sticharion. Very peculiar to my eyes, I've never seen them in person. Any idea what they might be?
Anyone?  :P

In my 50 years' experience, I've only ever seen the "oraria" of Greek altarboys arranged in parallel at the front, and crossed at the back. I've never seen what you've described.  :-\
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Re: Subdeacons
« Reply #79 on: March 27, 2014, 11:58:34 PM »
I have seen pictures of Greek-tradition altar boys wearing orarion-like vestments whose ends come together at the chest in a "v" but stop there. They appear to be sewn permanently that way, so that they would be slid over the head on top of the sticharion. Very peculiar to my eyes, I've never seen them in person. Any idea what they might be?
Anyone?  :P

In my 50 years' experience, I've only ever seen the "oraria" of Greek altarboys arranged in parallel at the front, and crossed at the back. I've never seen what you've described.  :-\

The difference between the vestments of a subdeacon and an altar server is that a subdeacon wears his orarion crossed in the front and back. An altar server only crosses it in the back. However, because boys tend to get their orarions tangled up or fiddle with them during the Divine Liturgy, my altar servers do not wear orarions.

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Re: Subdeacons
« Reply #80 on: March 28, 2014, 12:02:48 AM »
I have seen pictures of Greek-tradition altar boys wearing orarion-like vestments whose ends come together at the chest in a "v" but stop there. They appear to be sewn permanently that way, so that they would be slid over the head on top of the sticharion. Very peculiar to my eyes, I've never seen them in person. Any idea what they might be?
Anyone?  :P

In my 50 years' experience, I've only ever seen the "oraria" of Greek altarboys arranged in parallel at the front, and crossed at the back. I've never seen what you've described.  :-\
A picture, if it helps at all:

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Re: Subdeacons
« Reply #81 on: March 28, 2014, 12:12:12 AM »
V-neck oraria?  That's weird.  :P
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Re: Subdeacons
« Reply #82 on: March 28, 2014, 12:15:16 AM »
V-neck oraria?  That's weird.  :P

reminds one of a Graduation hood.....for advanced degrees...in an odd way.

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Re: Subdeacons
« Reply #83 on: March 28, 2014, 12:23:09 AM »
They are utterly useless.  done.   ;) ;D :P

We may be the only Orthodox who do it, but a sub-deacon can chant the Great Litany and the two Little Litanies during the Divine Liturgy. It is always a very good idea to have a sub-deacon or other adult in the Altar to watch the Altar Boys and make them behave.

In ACROD, I've seen subsections chant one of the two lesser litanies, but not the Great and then only with a special blessing from the Bishop.

I'm pretty sure the same software techs that developed Boeing's tracking software had something to do with Android's auto-correct function...

Obviously I meant "subdeacons"  not "subsections" lest anyone fear yet another western  oddity is lurking within St. Peter Mohyla' s rubrics...

Yes, I was wondering about the "subsection" comment. Hey, if I eat barley, it might be fun to see what I would post as I get spacey from plain barley malt -- it does not need to be alcoholic.

I have heard Subdeacons chant the litanies especially when the priest is losing his voice and there is no Deacon. In one parish, a Reader was allowed to chant the litanies, but he was being prepared for his ordination to the Subdiaconate.
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Re: Subdeacons
« Reply #84 on: March 28, 2014, 12:25:43 AM »
I have seen pictures of Greek-tradition altar boys wearing orarion-like vestments whose ends come together at the chest in a "v" but stop there. They appear to be sewn permanently that way, so that they would be slid over the head on top of the sticharion. Very peculiar to my eyes, I've never seen them in person. Any idea what they might be?
Anyone?  :P

In my 50 years' experience, I've only ever seen the "oraria" of Greek altarboys arranged in parallel at the front, and crossed at the back. I've never seen what you've described.  :-\

The difference between the vestments of a subdeacon and an altar server is that a subdeacon wears his orarion crossed in the front and back. An altar server only crosses it in the back. However, because boys tend to get their orarions tangled up or fiddle with them during the Divine Liturgy, my altar servers do not wear orarions.

Fr. John W. Morris

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Re: Subdeacons
« Reply #85 on: March 28, 2014, 12:36:11 AM »
V-neck oraria?  That's weird.  :P
Indeed, and they don't look like they were intended to be that way, the pattern doesn't match where they are sewn together!
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Re: Subdeacons
« Reply #86 on: March 28, 2014, 01:06:38 AM »
V-neck oraria?  That's weird.  :P
Indeed, and they don't look like they were intended to be that way, the pattern doesn't match where they are sewn together!

It looks like a separate piece that is put on over the vestment, most likely with snaps to hold them in place. When I was singing in the choir, we put our robes on, then put something like that (V shaped) over the robe. There was a button to hold it in place.
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Re: Subdeacons
« Reply #87 on: April 04, 2014, 05:10:34 PM »
On the topic of subdeacons saying the litanies, my situation may be enlightening.  My parish has no deacon, and our priest is ailing.  So I am frequently blessed to say Litanies.  This is not canonical, but I assume Father has the Bishop's blessing to allow it under economia.
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Re: Subdeacons
« Reply #88 on: April 05, 2014, 01:47:52 PM »
Subdeacon Richard, hopefully you get ordained to the diaconate eventually. That would regularise your situation and leave you free to concentrate on the deacon's duties, and then the other subdeacons can be normal subdeacons.

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Re: Subdeacons
« Reply #89 on: April 05, 2014, 05:41:28 PM »
V-neck oraria?  That's weird.  :P
Indeed, and they don't look like they were intended to be that way, the pattern doesn't match where they are sewn together!

I suspect that if someone had the time and the resources to research this matter, they would find that this style of orarion came from the sashes that Protestants frequently wear over their choir robes.

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Re: Subdeacons
« Reply #90 on: April 06, 2014, 02:28:53 AM »
Subdeacon Richard, hopefully you get ordained to the diaconate eventually. That would regularise your situation and leave you free to concentrate on the deacon's duties, and then the other subdeacons can be normal subdeacons.

My wife is Anglican, she didn't (YET!) follow me into Orthodoxy.  This means that a bishop would have to be very brave to ordain me as a deacon, since it's rightly proscribed by the canons.  I say 'rightly' because to be even an orthodox layman without your spouse is very hard, to be a deacon with a non-orthodox diaconissa is even more so.  Think how important the Matushka/Presvetera/Khouria is to the work of any married priest.  I pray we will be sent a proper deacon, then I can retire.
INXC, Subdeacon Richard.

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Re: Subdeacons
« Reply #91 on: April 07, 2014, 05:27:33 PM »
Sorry, didn't realize that detail. But I hope that your situation will be regularised nonetheless. But I think that a consistent Bishop would not have made someone a subdeacon who has a heterodox spouse, but would have left him at reader, but what is done cannot be undone. Hopefully your spouse converts, or you get a proper deacon, or both.