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Gorazd
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« Reply #135 on: September 25, 2012, 01:47:13 PM » |
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No one is a sinner "because" they are born. We are simply born in the state of sin. I don't think any Catholic would say one is a sinner because of birth.
This is such a serious theological issue, that we should not try to find faulty compromises. Augustine of Hippo (354-430) taught that Adam's sin[16] is transmitted by concupiscence, resulting in mankind becoming a massa damnata (mass of perdition, condemned crowd Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Original_sinActually, this would need another thread, unless we would specifically want to discuss anything Vladimir Moss said on that issue. |
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minasoliman
Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
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Strengthen O Lord the work of Your hands(Is 19:25)
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« Reply #137 on: September 25, 2012, 07:01:25 PM » |
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No one is a sinner "because" they are born. We are simply born in the state of sin. I don't think any Catholic would say one is a sinner because of birth.
This is such a serious theological issue, that we should not try to find faulty compromises. Augustine of Hippo (354-430) taught that Adam's sin[16] is transmitted by concupiscence, resulting in mankind becoming a massa damnata (mass of perdition, condemned crowd Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Original_sinActually, this would need another thread, unless we would specifically want to discuss anything Vladimir Moss said on that issue. I don't think I'm compromising anything. I think some of these teachings exist in St Athanasius and St Cyril of Alexandria. When we are born, we are born "exiled", separate from God's grace to a certain extant, in a state of sin. In our Coptic liturgies, we pray "even if one's life may be just one day, he is still not without sin." We all fall short of the glory of God. Nevertheless, by partaking of His glory, our exile, our state of sin is abolished, our disease of sin is cured, and our continuous sins are forgiven, and our lives continue to become illuminated. Perhaps we can discuss St. Augustine in another thread. Let's just stick with Moss. Can you quote anything from Moss that bothers you? |
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« Last Edit: September 25, 2012, 07:02:03 PM by minasoliman »
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Vain existence can never exist, for \\\"unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain.\\\" (Psalm 127)
If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.
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minasoliman
Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
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Strengthen O Lord the work of Your hands(Is 19:25)
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« Reply #138 on: September 25, 2012, 07:03:55 PM » |
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Why don't we examine Moss' writings on Original Sin and point out exactly by quotes what are his problems. As far as I see it, I tend to agree I don't see a dichotomy, but a harmony of both views.
Now I was speaking about WC in general, though we could of course analyse Moss' writings, if someone would provide me with a link Are we sinners, because we are born? Yes or no? It's not like yes and no to this question are complimentary. No one is a sinner "because" they are born. We are simply born in the state of sin. I don't think any Catholic would say one is a sinner because of birth. Clearly, my friend, you are not subscribing enough evil to the God-hating papists. I have sinned! Forgive me!  |
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Vain existence can never exist, for \\\"unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain.\\\" (Psalm 127)
If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.
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Gorazd
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« Reply #139 on: September 26, 2012, 10:32:25 AM » |
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I am still reading the text written by Vladimir Moss and linked by Jonathan Gress. There definitely is something in there that bothers me, but please have patience with me, so that I read the text in depth.
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minasoliman
Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
Section Moderator
Merarches
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Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox Archdiocese of North America
Posts: 10,454
Strengthen O Lord the work of Your hands(Is 19:25)
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« Reply #140 on: September 26, 2012, 02:29:52 PM » |
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I am still reading the text written by Vladimir Moss and linked by Jonathan Gress. There definitely is something in there that bothers me, but please have patience with me, so that I read the text in depth.
Sure...no rush...I'll be reading the text with you  |
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Vain existence can never exist, for \\\"unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain.\\\" (Psalm 127)
If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.
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Gunnarr
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« Reply #141 on: October 05, 2012, 09:15:18 AM » |
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agghhhh!!!
What is the point of reading the books of these modern day "scholars"?
Why spend time reading them when they could possibly be heretical when you can just read the HOLY FATHERS INSTEAD!
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I am a demonic servant! Beware!
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Shanghaiski
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« Reply #142 on: October 05, 2012, 02:17:40 PM » |
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agghhhh!!!
What is the point of reading the books of these modern day "scholars"?
Why spend time reading them when they could possibly be heretical when you can just read the HOLY FATHERS INSTEAD!
A certain degree of caution should be exercised when reading the Holy Fathers as well. We don't just check our reason at the door. Certain modern writers are also more accessible than the Holy Fathers. They tend to write in simpler styles, unmitigated by translational issues, and address contemporary issues the Holy Fathers did not. |
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If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.
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