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kx9
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« on: September 30, 2012, 03:01:20 PM »

Does the EOC believe in the doctrine of torment for the unsaved immediately after the die (in Hades). And that they will continue to be tormented forever in the Lake of Fire after the Great White Throne Judgment?
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« Reply #1 on: September 30, 2012, 03:57:05 PM »

Are you asking whether we believe Hell to be a place of physical fire where God will eternally physically torture sinners as a punishment for individual acts of wrong-doings?
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« Reply #2 on: September 30, 2012, 07:37:16 PM »

Before the General Resurrection/Last Judgment and after a person's death, there is only a foretaste of the future, and for those whose experience is torment, it is not irreversible through the prayers of the Church. In other words, it ain't over till it's over.
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« Reply #3 on: September 30, 2012, 09:46:21 PM »

One explanation I've heard is that the fire experienced by the unbeliever is the light and love of God experienced as a burning fire by those who wish to escape His presence and who can't because he is omnipresent and eternal.
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« Reply #4 on: October 01, 2012, 03:32:01 AM »

Are you asking whether we believe Hell to be a place of physical fire where God will eternally physically torture sinners as a punishment for individual acts of wrong-doings?

1. Does the EOC teach that unbelievers who have not been saved by faith in Jesus will be [tormented for eternity].

2. Does the EOC teach whether the fire is physical, or that the unsaved person will just feel the flames for eternity, even if there is no real fire at all?
« Last Edit: October 01, 2012, 03:34:49 AM by kx9 » Logged
kx9
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« Reply #5 on: October 01, 2012, 03:35:03 AM »

Before the General Resurrection/Last Judgment and after a person's death, there is only a foretaste of the future, and for those whose experience is torment, it is not irreversible through the prayers of the Church. In other words, it ain't over till it's over.


Quote
it is not irreversible through the prayers of the Church. In other words, it ain't over till it's over.

To me, this whole sentence seems to be saying that it is reversible by the prayers of the Church (i.e. the unsaved will feel the tormenting only for a limited period of time by the prayers of the Church).

Is this what you meant to say?
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« Reply #6 on: October 01, 2012, 03:50:23 AM »

One explanation I've heard is that the fire experienced by the unbeliever is the light and love of God experienced as a burning fire by those who wish to escape His presence and who can't because he is omnipresent and eternal.

Okay, does the EOC teach that this tormenting experience lasts for eternity?
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« Reply #7 on: October 01, 2012, 04:09:55 AM »

1. Does the EOC teach that unbelievers who have not been saved by faith in Jesus will be [tormented for eternity].

I don't like the idea of linking "torment" and "hell" but then again English is not my native language so I might fail to catch all of the connotations. Anyway, here's something from St. Augustine which I recently quoted in an another thread. It summarizes my view on Hell:

112. ... But let them suppose, if it pleases them, that, for certain intervals of time, the punishments of the damned are somewhat mitigated. Even so, the wrath of God must be understood as still resting on them. And this is damnation--for this anger, which is not a violent passion in the divine mind, is called "wrath" in God. Yet even in his wrath--his wrath resting on them--he does not "shut up his mercy." This is not to put an end to their eternal afflictions, but rather to apply or interpose some little respite in their torments. For the psalm does not say, "To put an end to his wrath," or, "After his wrath," but, "In his wrath." ... 113. The eternal death of the damned--that is, their estrangement from the life of God--will therefore abide without end, and it will be common to them all, no matter what some people, moved by their human feelings, may wish to think about gradations of punishment, or the relief or intermission of their misery. In the same way, the eternal life of the saints will abide forever, and also be common to all of them no matter how different the grades of rank and honor in which they shine forth in their effulgent harmony.

-- Blessed Augustine of Hippo, Enchiridion: On Faith, Hope, and Love XXIX 112-113

Please note that he is not talking about punishments and torments but about mercy of God and estrangement from the life of God.

Quote
2. Does the EOC teach whether the fire is physical, or that the unsaved person will just feel the flames for eternity, even if there is no real fire at all?

Fire is just a metaphor. We've been told that Hell is an extremely negative experience with different metaphors but we don't have blueprint for Hell.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2012, 04:12:39 AM by Alpo » Logged

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« Reply #8 on: October 01, 2012, 05:56:52 AM »

God is love, so He does not desire that anybody suffers. Hell is only for those who hate God.
Though, God will do His best to save everybody, so the question is not whether God wants anybody to go to hell, but whether all people will accept Him. After death people still have the opportunity to repent until the Final Judgement; again it's their choice, nobody can force them either way, it's all about what one truly wants for himself. Hell is not a place where God punishes people either, of course. It is the state of one's soul who hates God and everybody else (such a soul cannot experience peace and accomplishment). In a way, it is the presence/knowledge of God that torments them, but we must be careful that we don't think that God's presence itself is actually purposely tormenting them. What torments them is really the way they perceive God's Presence. It's their perception that is upside down, otherwise, God's Presence is always positive. And, so they don't experience God's Presence the same way as the righteous because God's Grace (Energies) are selective. (they know God is there, but they also can't see/experience Him they way the righteous do, but they see Him as darkness, in a state of separation from Him).
Also, in the age to come, all people will receive a spiritual body, they will be like angels in a body, so the torments will not be physical in nature because that won't even be possible. The torments will be spiritual. I guess we could say deeply emotional, psychic, yet some saints say that they will be even worse than physical fire. That's not to be taken as if it is a sort of physical fire that is worse than physical fire as we know it. No, it's a spiritual fire -- the root of this torment is the pride of the evil person who can never accept that their evil passions cannot be fulfilled anymore. So they experience this total "personal failure" as if it is the death of who they are, of who they would have wanted to be, but can never be; this is really worse that physical fire. The torments are actually multiple, but they all have as the root this evil love of self. It's paradoxical, too, because these evil people do cause their own suffering while knowing that they do (insane).
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« Reply #9 on: October 01, 2012, 07:15:49 AM »

I think it would be helpful if a priest on the forum answered this one.
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« Reply #10 on: October 01, 2012, 08:58:07 AM »

One explanation I've heard is that the fire experienced by the unbeliever is the light and love of God experienced as a burning fire by those who wish to escape His presence and who can't because he is omnipresent and eternal.

Okay, does the EOC teach that this tormenting experience lasts for eternity?


It is my understanding that the tormenting is not caused by God but by the individual inward hatred.  Does it last forever and ever? I believe so, not because God wants them to suffer and not because they can't repent, but because they refuse the Light and Love of God, other words they refuse to be in relationship with Him.  In any case, I prefer not to find out the hard way.
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« Reply #11 on: October 01, 2012, 12:38:58 PM »

http://aggreen.net/beliefs/heaven_hell.html


This article  explaines how orthodox christians understand of heaven and hell with the support of the Scripture. I think it can help you a lot.
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« Reply #12 on: October 01, 2012, 01:40:29 PM »

One explanation I've heard is that the fire experienced by the unbeliever is the light and love of God experienced as a burning fire by those who wish to escape His presence and who can't because he is omnipresent and eternal.

Okay, does the EOC teach that this tormenting experience lasts for eternity?

Do you want people to suffer forever?

Heaven and hell begin here, in this life. Those who love God experience paradise even on earth. Those who hate Him experience the sufferings of hell. The death of the body occurs, and the soul lives on and experiences its spiritual reality more fully. The prayers of the Church and the prayers and deeds and love of the living can mitigate departed souls' suffering or increase their joy and experience of blessedness. This is because, due to Christ's resurrection, death has been conquered and no longer divides people like it used to. However, the state of blessedness or suffering experience by people after death is temporary and not complete. This is because the Lord has not yet returned, raised the bodies of the dead, reunited soul and body in the general resurrection, judged all souls, and assigned an eternal state. After the last judgment, people will experience either eternal blessedness or eternal suffering. But, as I said, until that day occurrs, it is possible for a suffering soul to experience relief. Whether its eternal state changes is up to God at the last judgment. Does that make sense? You have to remember that the last judgment has not yet happened.
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« Reply #13 on: October 01, 2012, 04:41:14 PM »

Do not fear! All that God wills is right and good. Whatever the "technicalities" of the Judgement of God will be, they will be just and loving and will be right. Don't let anxieties about these kinds of questions rob you of your peace. Trust in God, pray for forgiveness, try to do as little evil as you are capable and pray to be more more capable. Be kind and forgiving to those who annoy you, and know that what feels like a long time to go is only the blink of an eye: all our petty worries are but nothing and death will come soon. Allow your heart to rest in simplicity and above all know that God loves you.
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« Reply #14 on: October 02, 2012, 08:35:03 AM »

Quote
How can Satan pure Evil ,Stand Before God as Scripture mentions ,And Not Be tormented??? When Satan tested Job ,God told Satan Not to take Jobs life.....

I have just found a very interesting question about hell from a former subject( e.g. Eternal torment or annihilation?).

In Book of Job,Satan standed before God with the angels. How can the impure Satan stand before the holiness God , and still not be tormented? Any idea about this question?
« Last Edit: October 02, 2012, 08:37:27 AM by walter1234 » Logged
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« Reply #15 on: October 02, 2012, 10:18:13 AM »

http://aggreen.net/beliefs/heaven_hell.html


This article  explaines how orthodox christians understand of heaven and hell with the support of the Scripture. I think it can help you a lot.
You do realize that this section of the forum is devoted to discussion of the Orthodox Christian faith from an Orthodox Christian point of view? You might wish to be more careful, then, what outside sources you cite as orthodox (or Orthodox).
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« Reply #16 on: October 02, 2012, 10:28:57 AM »

http://aggreen.net/beliefs/heaven_hell.html


This article  explaines how orthodox christians understand of heaven and hell with the support of the Scripture. I think it can help you a lot.
You do realize that this section of the forum is devoted to discussion of the Orthodox Christian faith from an Orthodox Christian point of view? You might wish to be more careful, then, what outside sources you cite as orthodox (or Orthodox).

Yes, this source or this understanding of heaven and hell aligns to Orthodox Christian Faith.
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« Reply #17 on: October 02, 2012, 01:22:09 PM »

Quote
How can Satan pure Evil ,Stand Before God as Scripture mentions ,And Not Be tormented??? When Satan tested Job ,God told Satan Not to take Jobs life.....

I have just found a very interesting question about hell from a former subject( e.g. Eternal torment or annihilation?).

In Book of Job,Satan standed before God with the angels. How can the impure Satan stand before the holiness God , and still not be tormented? Any idea about this question?
God is everywhere. His Presence allows Satan to exist.
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« Reply #18 on: October 02, 2012, 01:37:30 PM »

Surprised there were not more direct answers.

ABSOLUTELY the Eastern Orthodox Church believes that HELL is a place where the person/soul in hell burns in eternal fire where the worm never dies.
Not trying to be insulting, but this belief is seriously Orthodox 101 folks.   

There are a LOT of books describing this.  Journey to Heaven by St. Tikhon of Zadonsk and Ladder of divine ascent for example.... I've read this description so many times I could not count.   It's even in the Orthodox prayers "...fires of hell...".   It's depicted in Orthodox Iconography as well.



 
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« Reply #19 on: October 02, 2012, 01:50:48 PM »

Quote
How can Satan pure Evil ,Stand Before God as Scripture mentions ,And Not Be tormented??? When Satan tested Job ,God told Satan Not to take Jobs life.....

I have just found a very interesting question about hell from a former subject( e.g. Eternal torment or annihilation?).

In Book of Job,Satan standed before God with the angels. How can the impure Satan stand before the holiness God , and still not be tormented? Any idea about this question?
God is everywhere. His Presence allows Satan to exist.

Hell is inescapable presence of God. And impure sinners who hate God will suffered by His loving and Holiness presence. They will feel pain, terror and fear in GOd's presence forever.         (And God' love is the most vehement flame. God itself is consuming fire)

Satan is most impure and evil one among all the creations of God. But Why can impure Satan stand before God and  be in the Holiness presence of God , and still not be tormented?

Is there any difference between God's presence with Satan that shows in Book of  Bob and His presence with sinners in hell?


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« Reply #20 on: October 02, 2012, 03:13:20 PM »

http://aggreen.net/beliefs/heaven_hell.html


This article  explaines how orthodox christians understand of heaven and hell with the support of the Scripture. I think it can help you a lot.
You do realize that this section of the forum is devoted to discussion of the Orthodox Christian faith from an Orthodox Christian point of view? You might wish to be more careful, then, what outside sources you cite as orthodox (or Orthodox).
Did I miss something? I read the article and it certainly seemed to present itself as Orthodox. Had recommendations and editorial credit to people from both the OCA and Antiochian churches too.
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« Reply #21 on: October 02, 2012, 03:23:21 PM »

Surprised there were not more direct answers.

ABSOLUTELY the Eastern Orthodox Church believes that HELL is a place where the person/soul in hell burns in eternal fire where the worm never dies.
Not trying to be insulting, but this belief is seriously Orthodox 101 folks.   

There are a LOT of books describing this.  Journey to Heaven by St. Tikhon of Zadonsk and Ladder of divine ascent for example.... I've read this description so many times I could not count.   It's even in the Orthodox prayers "...fires of hell...".   It's depicted in Orthodox Iconography as well.

Fire which doesn't kill worms and doesn't produce any light? Uhm...no.
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« Reply #22 on: October 02, 2012, 03:24:38 PM »

One explanation I've heard is that the fire experienced by the unbeliever is the light and love of God experienced as a burning fire by those who wish to escape His presence and who can't because he is omnipresent and eternal.

Okay, does the EOC teach that this tormenting experience lasts for eternity?

Isnt it accurate to say that righteous people plus all the prophets and our forefather Adam were in Hades......until......Christ descended to Hades on Great and Holy Saturday and freed them?

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« Reply #23 on: October 02, 2012, 03:27:05 PM »

Surprised there were not more direct answers.

ABSOLUTELY the Eastern Orthodox Church believes that HELL is a place where the person/soul in hell burns in eternal fire where the worm never dies.
Not trying to be insulting, but this belief is seriously Orthodox 101 folks.   

There are a LOT of books describing this.  Journey to Heaven by St. Tikhon of Zadonsk and Ladder of divine ascent for example.... I've read this description so many times I could not count.   It's even in the Orthodox prayers "...fires of hell...".   It's depicted in Orthodox Iconography as well.



 


Define eternal..

Isnt it true that some people have been saved from Hell after their death by prayers for them?
Orthodoxy 102  Wink
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« Reply #24 on: October 02, 2012, 03:28:38 PM »

Do not fear! All that God wills is right and good. Whatever the "technicalities" of the Judgement of God will be, they will be just and loving and will be right. Don't let anxieties about these kinds of questions rob you of your peace. Trust in God, pray for forgiveness, try to do as little evil as you are capable and pray to be more more capable. Be kind and forgiving to those who annoy you, and know that what feels like a long time to go is only the blink of an eye: all our petty worries are but nothing and death will come soon. Allow your heart to rest in simplicity and above all know that God loves you.

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« Reply #25 on: October 02, 2012, 04:00:36 PM »

Surprised there were not more direct answers.

ABSOLUTELY the Eastern Orthodox Church believes that HELL is a place where the person/soul in hell burns in eternal fire where the worm never dies.
Not trying to be insulting, but this belief is seriously Orthodox 101 folks.   

There are a LOT of books describing this.  Journey to Heaven by St. Tikhon of Zadonsk and Ladder of divine ascent for example.... I've read this description so many times I could not count.   It's even in the Orthodox prayers "...fires of hell...".   It's depicted in Orthodox Iconography as well.



 


Define eternal..

Isnt it true that some people have been saved from Hell after their death by prayers for them?
Orthodoxy 102  Wink
Alter "Hell" to "Hades," and I would answer in the affirmative.
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« Reply #26 on: October 02, 2012, 05:05:25 PM »

One explanation I've heard is that the fire experienced by the unbeliever is the light and love of God experienced as a burning fire by those who wish to escape His presence and who can't because he is omnipresent and eternal.

Okay, does the EOC teach that this tormenting experience lasts for eternity?

Isnt it accurate to say that righteous people plus all the prophets and our forefather Adam were in Hades......until......Christ descended to Hades on Great and Holy Saturday and freed them?



Yes.

However, those who find themselves in Hell after the Final Judgement, will unfortunately remain in that state....for eternity.

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« Reply #27 on: October 02, 2012, 05:17:28 PM »

That's what I thought. ^^

In traditional RC theology, Hell is what happens to the unsaved after bodily death, and once there you have no escape. The only thing that will change is that, before the Last Judgment, only your soul will be tormented, while after the Judgment and the resurrection of the body, both body and soul will be tormented for eternity. Purgatory, on the other hand, is where your soul goes if it is saved but still has some temporal penalties to "pay off"; everyone in Purgatory will end up in Heaven after the Last Judgment.

In Orthodox theology, from what I understand, the term Hell is a little misleading, because there are actually two things that we can call Hades and Gehenna. Hades is where your soul goes after death if you have not repented OR if you have repented, but haven't brought forth fruits of repentance. There is no Purgatory. However, the souls in Hades that have repented may still be saved through the prayers of the Church (and possibly through God's direct intervention, but the Church is silent on the details). Of course, this means you have to die in the Church to take advantage of the Church's prayers.

At the Last Judgment, and the bodily resurrection, everyone will be judged according to whether they followed the dictates of their conscience. Not everyone in Hades will necessarily end up in Gehenna, but those who are sent to Gehenna will never escape after that.

One priest, now Orthodox but formerly RC, explained to me that the difference between the RC idea of Purgatory, and the Orthodox teaching that souls in Hades may still be saved through the Church's prayers, is that the Orthodox believe there is no repentance in Hades. This means a soul in Hades can't save itself by repenting, or by "paying off" temporal debts, but only the Church can help it at that point. In other words, it is not the suffering in Hades that saves a repentant soul, but simply the fact that the soul repented before death AND died within the bosom of the Church.

The moral of the whole story, as I see it, is that you really have to follow your own conscience above all else. This mainly manifests itself in love of the truth. One part of that is seeking the truth about God, which should lead you to the True Church, where you can avail yourself of Her prayers  (both on Earth and in Heaven). The other part is seeking the truth about yourself, which means constantly examining your conscience and confessing all your sins, so that nothing will be held against you either after death or at the Last Day.
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« Reply #28 on: October 03, 2012, 04:55:04 AM »

Surprised there were not more direct answers.

ABSOLUTELY the Eastern Orthodox Church believes that HELL is a place where the person/soul in hell burns in eternal fire where the worm never dies.
Not trying to be insulting, but this belief is seriously Orthodox 101 folks.   

There are a LOT of books describing this.  Journey to Heaven by St. Tikhon of Zadonsk and Ladder of divine ascent for example.... I've read this description so many times I could not count.   It's even in the Orthodox prayers "...fires of hell...".   It's depicted in Orthodox Iconography as well.

Fire which doesn't kill worms and doesn't produce any light? Uhm...no.

I still cannot figure out a question about hell. In bible, hell is discribed as a "place" which their worms does not die and their fire is not quenched.

In Orthodox church, Fire ususally refer to the torments which come from the love and  presence of God.What does their worms refer to?
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« Reply #29 on: October 03, 2012, 01:00:57 PM »

Surprised there were not more direct answers.

ABSOLUTELY the Eastern Orthodox Church believes that HELL is a place where the person/soul in hell burns in eternal fire where the worm never dies.
Not trying to be insulting, but this belief is seriously Orthodox 101 folks.   

There are a LOT of books describing this.  Journey to Heaven by St. Tikhon of Zadonsk and Ladder of divine ascent for example.... I've read this description so many times I could not count.   It's even in the Orthodox prayers "...fires of hell...".   It's depicted in Orthodox Iconography as well.

Fire which doesn't kill worms and doesn't produce any light? Uhm...no.

I still cannot figure out a question about hell. In bible, hell is discribed as a "place" which their worms does not die and their fire is not quenched.

In Orthodox church, Fire ususally refer to the torments which come from the love and  presence of God.What does their worms refer to?

The undying worm of the conscience.
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« Reply #30 on: October 04, 2012, 10:58:20 AM »


However, those who find themselves in Hell after the Final Judgement, will unfortunately remain in that state....for eternity.

This answer was what I was looking for. The same is also affirmed by Roman Catholics as well. I am amazed that many EO posters have a different opinion instead of looking at the official teaching of the EOC regarding the Lake of Fire.
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« Reply #31 on: October 04, 2012, 11:04:37 AM »


However, those who find themselves in Hell after the Final Judgement, will unfortunately remain in that state....for eternity.

This answer was what I was looking for. The same is also affirmed by Roman Catholics as well. I am amazed that many Orthodox posters have a different opinion instead of looking at the official teaching of the EOC regarding the Lake of Fire.

So many? Where? I'm not sure I've ever come across one that would disagree with what Liza wrote. Are you sure you're not confusing our beliefs about what happens after the particular judgement with what happens after the Last Judgement?

James
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« Reply #32 on: October 04, 2012, 11:23:46 AM »

Surprised there were not more direct answers.

ABSOLUTELY the Eastern Orthodox Church believes that HELL is a place where the person/soul in hell burns in eternal fire where the worm never dies.
Not trying to be insulting, but this belief is seriously Orthodox 101 folks.  

There are a LOT of books describing this.  Journey to Heaven by St. Tikhon of Zadonsk and Ladder of divine ascent for example.... I've read this description so many times I could not count.   It's even in the Orthodox prayers "...fires of hell...".   It's depicted in Orthodox Iconography as well.

Fire which doesn't kill worms and doesn't produce any light? Uhm...no.

I still cannot figure out a question about hell. In bible, hell is discribed as a "place" which their worms does not die and their fire is not quenched.

In Orthodox church, Fire ususally refer to the torments which come from the love and  presence of God.What does their worms refer to?
The worms are probably mentioned in that verse to show that if that eternal fire cannot kill a worm, neither can that fire kill humans.... that means eternal torment without death.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2012, 11:25:59 AM by kx9 » Logged
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« Reply #33 on: October 04, 2012, 11:44:10 AM »


However, those who find themselves in Hell after the Final Judgement, will unfortunately remain in that state....for eternity.

This answer was what I was looking for. The same is also affirmed by Roman Catholics as well. I am amazed that many EO posters have a different opinion instead of looking at the official teaching of the EOC regarding the Lake of Fire.

Excuse me, you were given this answer in many posts here.
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« Reply #34 on: October 04, 2012, 01:24:55 PM »

Surprised there were not more direct answers.

ABSOLUTELY the Eastern Orthodox Church believes that HELL is a place where the person/soul in hell burns in eternal fire where the worm never dies.
Not trying to be insulting, but this belief is seriously Orthodox 101 folks.  

There are a LOT of books describing this.  Journey to Heaven by St. Tikhon of Zadonsk and Ladder of divine ascent for example.... I've read this description so many times I could not count.   It's even in the Orthodox prayers "...fires of hell...".   It's depicted in Orthodox Iconography as well.

Fire which doesn't kill worms and doesn't produce any light? Uhm...no.

I still cannot figure out a question about hell. In bible, hell is discribed as a "place" which their worms does not die and their fire is not quenched.

In Orthodox church, Fire ususally refer to the torments which come from the love and  presence of God.What does their worms refer to?
The worms are probably mentioned in that verse to show that if that eternal fire cannot kill a worm, neither can that fire kill humans.... that means eternal torment without death.

Some English bible versions interpret Mark 9:48 as "Their worm does not die, And the fire is not quenched", some interpret it as" the worms that eat them do not die,and the fire is not quenched".

How about in LXX or other greek bible version??In LXX or other greek bible version, the word 'worm' is a singular number or plural ?
« Last Edit: October 04, 2012, 01:26:40 PM by walter1234 » Logged
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« Reply #35 on: October 04, 2012, 01:56:25 PM »

Some English bible versions interpret Mark 9:48 as "Their worm does not die, And the fire is not quenched", some interpret it as" the worms that eat them do not die,and the fire is not quenched".

How about in LXX or other greek bible version??In LXX or other greek bible version, the word 'worm' is a singular number or plural ?

LXX stands for the Septuagint; which is a collection of Greek Translations of the Old Testament. Since you are interested in Mark 9:48, it will not be in the LXX. When it comes to New Testament, there are two poplular collection of texts; one is called the Majority Text and another one is called the Critical Text (or some people refer to it as NU text). Both of them are Orthodox in origin; however higher preference is given to the Majority Text in Orthodox circles. The "Eastern Orthodox Bible" is a translation of the Majority / Patriarchal Text. And the following is how the above verse reads in it:
Quote
It is better for you to enter into the Kingdom of God with one eye, rather than with two eyes be cast into the Gehennae of fire, ‘where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.’
 So the worm appears in the singular form.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2012, 01:56:46 PM by dhinuus » Logged

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« Reply #36 on: October 04, 2012, 02:27:22 PM »

Some English bible versions interpret Mark 9:48 as "Their worm does not die, And the fire is not quenched", some interpret it as" the worms that eat them do not die,and the fire is not quenched".

How about in LXX or other greek bible version??In LXX or other greek bible version, the word 'worm' is a singular number or plural ?

LXX stands for the Septuagint; which is a collection of Greek Translations of the Old Testament. Since you are interested in Mark 9:48, it will not be in the LXX. When it comes to New Testament, there are two poplular collection of texts; one is called the Majority Text and another one is called the Critical Text (or some people refer to it as NU text). Both of them are Orthodox in origin; however higher preference is given to the Majority Text in Orthodox circles. The "Eastern Orthodox Bible" is a translation of the Majority / Patriarchal Text. And the following is how the above verse reads in it:
Quote
It is better for you to enter into the Kingdom of God with one eye, rather than with two eyes be cast into the Gehennae of fire, ‘where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.’
 So the worm appears in the singular form.

But some Englsih bible version is not in singular form, like NIV interpret it as 'worms', not worm .Messages interpret it as 'maggots'. Thus, I am interest about the orginal text, greek and Hebrew Scripture of this word,e.g. worm.
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« Reply #37 on: October 04, 2012, 02:53:20 PM »

But some Englsih bible version is not in singular form, like NIV interpret it as 'worms', not worm .Messages interpret it as 'maggots'. Thus, I am interest about the orginal text, greek and Hebrew Scripture of this word,e.g. word.
Please note none of the New Testament books were written in Hebrew. All scholars agree that almost all of the New Testament was written in Greek. The only confusion is about the Gospel of Matthew. Some say the original langauge of that is Syriac / Aramaic while others say it was also originaly written in Greek. So the question of original Hebrew text of the New Testament does not even arise.

Now the ORIGINAL, Greek text of the New Testament is also not a simple answer either. There is no just ONE single ORIGINAL text of the New Testament in Greek. There are various manuscripts; which scholars have grouped into:
1.   Majority Text (Byzantine type text)
2.   Minority Text (Alexandrian type text also called Critical Text, NU Text etc)
3.   Western text type.
You can read more at:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Textual_criticism#New_Testament

Even within each text type there are slight variations.  In 1902, in order to ensure ecclesiastical harmony, the Ecumenical Patriarchate appointed a committee whose task was to publish a common and official text. This committee retired to Mount Athos and studied about 20 major Byzantine manuscripts from which they adopted one, yet taking into consideration significant variants from other manuscripts. This text, which is very close to the so called Majority Text (MT), was published for the first time in 1904.

The Eastern Orthodox Bible (EOB) is a translation of this Patriarchal Text of 1904.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_/_Greek_Orthodox_Bible

The quote that I have given above with worm in the singular is from the EOB.
Another reason why sola scriptura is problamatic. Which version is the "sola" ? That is why scripture has to be interpreted within the Church; not by each person the way he or she wants to.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2012, 03:01:54 PM by dhinuus » Logged

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« Reply #38 on: October 04, 2012, 03:28:09 PM »

But some Englsih bible version is not in singular form, like NIV interpret it as 'worms', not worm .Messages interpret it as 'maggots'. Thus, I am interest about the orginal text, greek and Hebrew Scripture of this word,e.g. word.
Please note none of the New Testament books were written in Hebrew. All scholars agree that almost all of the New Testament was written in Greek. The only confusion is about the Gospel of Matthew. Some say the original langauge of that is Syriac / Aramaic while others say it was also originaly written in Greek. So the question of original Hebrew text of the New Testament does not even arise.

Now the ORIGINAL, Greek text of the New Testament is also not a simple answer either. There is no just ONE single ORIGINAL text of the New Testament in Greek. There are various manuscripts; which scholars have grouped into:
1.   Majority Text (Byzantine type text)
2.   Minority Text (Alexandrian type text also called Critical Text, NU Text etc)
3.   Western text type.
You can read more at:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Textual_criticism#New_Testament

Even within each text type there are slight variations.  In 1902, in order to ensure ecclesiastical harmony, the Ecumenical Patriarchate appointed a committee whose task was to publish a common and official text. This committee retired to Mount Athos and studied about 20 major Byzantine manuscripts from which they adopted one, yet taking into consideration significant variants from other manuscripts. This text, which is very close to the so called Majority Text (MT), was published for the first time in 1904.

The Eastern Orthodox Bible (EOB) is a translation of this Patriarchal Text of 1904.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_/_Greek_Orthodox_Bible

The quote that I have given above with worm in the singular is from the EOB.
Another reason why sola scriptura is problamatic. Which version is the "sola" ? That is why scripture has to be interpreted within the Church; not by each person the way he or she wants to.
I see LXX(Isaiah 66:24) is also worm.(http://www.ccel.org/bible/brenton/Isaiah/66.html)

As I've told that more and more Protestant Christians claim that God has led them to visit hell. They come back and tell how horrible hell is and use them to preach the gospel. Some pastors even like to use these of hell-visitation testimonies to preach the gospel , scare people  and force them to believe Jusus. It is more popular in Protestant, especially in charismatic and pentecostal Church. I also heard two of this type of preaching in Evangelistic meeting beofre.

Quite a lot of  Protestant Christians claims that they have visited the hell. Some of them claims that they saw the demons to bring the sinner to the rim/boader of lake of fire. And then a lot of worms/maggots come out from that lake of fire and eat the meat of that sinner.  All these must be false teachings/ lies. I think these liars should study the bible deeper before they write their hell-visitation testimony books and sell them to the market.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2012, 03:43:57 PM by walter1234 » Logged
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« Reply #39 on: October 04, 2012, 03:43:27 PM »

"where their worm does not die" I believe it's used as a medaphor for a spiritual condition such as grief.
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« Reply #40 on: October 04, 2012, 03:58:52 PM »

But some Englsih bible version is not in singular form, like NIV interpret it as 'worms', not worm .Messages interpret it as 'maggots'. Thus, I am interest about the orginal text, greek and Hebrew Scripture of this word,e.g. word.
Please note none of the New Testament books were written in Hebrew. All scholars agree that almost all of the New Testament was written in Greek. The only confusion is about the Gospel of Matthew. Some say the original langauge of that is Syriac / Aramaic while others say it was also originaly written in Greek. So the question of original Hebrew text of the New Testament does not even arise.

Now the ORIGINAL, Greek text of the New Testament is also not a simple answer either. There is no just ONE single ORIGINAL text of the New Testament in Greek. There are various manuscripts; which scholars have grouped into:
1.   Majority Text (Byzantine type text)
2.   Minority Text (Alexandrian type text also called Critical Text, NU Text etc)
3.   Western text type.
You can read more at:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Textual_criticism#New_Testament

Even within each text type there are slight variations.  In 1902, in order to ensure ecclesiastical harmony, the Ecumenical Patriarchate appointed a committee whose task was to publish a common and official text. This committee retired to Mount Athos and studied about 20 major Byzantine manuscripts from which they adopted one, yet taking into consideration significant variants from other manuscripts. This text, which is very close to the so called Majority Text (MT), was published for the first time in 1904.

The Eastern Orthodox Bible (EOB) is a translation of this Patriarchal Text of 1904.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_/_Greek_Orthodox_Bible

The quote that I have given above with worm in the singular is from the EOB.
Another reason why sola scriptura is problamatic. Which version is the "sola" ? That is why scripture has to be interpreted within the Church; not by each person the way he or she wants to.

In Protestant, there are many famous Bible scholars. They like to interpret the scripture according to the way or approach they like. Thus, the scholars easily divide into different sides and make accusation of heretic and unbibical to each other
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« Reply #41 on: October 05, 2012, 01:48:30 AM »


However, those who find themselves in Hell after the Final Judgement, will unfortunately remain in that state....for eternity.

This answer was what I was looking for. The same is also affirmed by Roman Catholics as well. I am amazed that many EO posters have a different opinion instead of looking at the official teaching of the EOC regarding the Lake of Fire.
This is the answer you were looking for???  This really looks like you are just hanging out waiting for someone to give the answer you already decided is the right one  then jumping on that allowing you to dismiss anything else that you don't like. Maybe I'm wrong but that what it looks like to me and cherry picking is not the way to approach Orthodoxy.

Moreover when you talk about the "official teaching" of the EO church, my understanding at least,is that the EO church has little by way of dogma (mostly what is contained within the Creed) and that outside of that there can be a variety of opinions which can vary from jurisdiction to jurisdiction and from Church Father to Church Father. This, if I'm understanding things correctly, (and someone with more knowledge correct me if I'm not) is one of the things that makes it very hard for westerners to understand the Orthodox Church at first. We come in looking for a single statement of faith that touches on all the points the Roman church does or many Protestant churches do and don't find it. We therefore read the opinion of one Metropolitan or jurisdiction and assume that it represents the whole of the Church when it does not. Again, perhaps I'm wrong but my understanding is that truth for the Church lies not in the opinions of one or two but in the consensus of the multitude that a teaching indeed accurately reflects what was passed down from the apostles.
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« Reply #42 on: October 05, 2012, 12:48:30 PM »


However, those who find themselves in Hell after the Final Judgement, will unfortunately remain in that state....for eternity.

This answer was what I was looking for. The same is also affirmed by Roman Catholics as well. I am amazed that many EO posters have a different opinion instead of looking at the official teaching of the EOC regarding the Lake of Fire.

Excuse me, you were given this answer in many posts here.

Oh I see... I must have been reading the posts too quickly last time. Thanks for pointing it out.
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« Reply #43 on: October 11, 2012, 12:35:47 PM »

One explanation I've heard is that the fire experienced by the unbeliever is the light and love of God experienced as a burning fire by those who wish to escape His presence and who can't because he is omnipresent and eternal.

God is love, so He does not desire that anybody suffers. Hell is only for those who hate God.
Though, God will do His best to save everybody, so the question is not whether God wants anybody to go to hell, but whether all people will accept Him. After death people still have the opportunity to repent until the Final Judgement; again it's their choice, nobody can force them either way, it's all about what one truly wants for himself.

I'm wondering how these comments fit in with what Shanghaiski was saying:
This is because the Lord has not yet returned, raised the bodies of the dead, reunited soul and body in the general resurrection, judged all souls, and assigned an eternal state. After the last judgment, people will experience either eternal blessedness or eternal suffering. But, as I said, until that day occurrs, it is possible for a suffering soul to experience relief. Whether its eternal state changes is up to God at the last judgment.

I was telling my husband something similar to what Maximum Bob and IoanC are saying, and his question was, "Do Orthodox Christians even believe in the last judgment? It sounds like people are just sorting themselves." I didn't know how to answer. Is God actually declaring and assigning judgment, or is the last judgment simply formalizing what we have already chosen for ourselves? If it's the second, how does that fit with the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, where the rich man wants to be where Abraham and Lazarus are?
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« Reply #44 on: October 11, 2012, 02:02:00 PM »

This podcast in Ancient Faith Radio teach us how Jesus will judge the world with love and mercy in Last Judgment:

http://ancientfaith.com/podcasts/namesofjesus/jesus_-_the_judge
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« Reply #45 on: October 11, 2012, 04:50:08 PM »

This podcast in Ancient Faith Radio teach us how Jesus will judge the world with love and mercy in Last Judgment:

http://ancientfaith.com/podcasts/namesofjesus/jesus_-_the_judge

Quote from: Fr. Thomas Hopko
He says it in Timothy, St. Paul says: “The Lord desires that all men would be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth.” All people. So he wants salvation. He doesn’t delight in the death of sinners. He doesn’t want hell. He doesn’t make hell and he doesn’t cause hell (...) And this is the judgment: that light is shining in the darkness, but some people prefer darkness; they choose darkness, because their deeds are evil.
(....)
He is raised and glorified, and his Cross is the balance beam of judgment. We will stand before it, and he will look at us, and he will pronounce what we [ourselves] have decided, according to what we [ourselves] have done. Jesus is the Judge, and what a marvelous Judge he is! He judges by not judging. He judges by showing mercy, and he asks us to show mercy, too: “Blessed are the merciful, for they shall be shown mercy.” But if we are not merciful, then that judges us. If we are not loving, if we don’t love light, if we don’t love truth, that judges us.

So we do sort ourselves, in that the way we orient our lives makes manifest whether we prefer light or darkness. But in the rich man and Lazarus, the rich man seems to be saying, "I didn't understand, but now I realize my mistake! Please help!" He doesn't seem to prefer darkness. He'd change if he could. Is it too late?

 "The Lord desires that all men would be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth." I want to think that this could possibly happen. But how do I reconcile that hope with this parable?
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« Reply #46 on: October 11, 2012, 10:08:22 PM »

This podcast in Ancient Faith Radio teach us how Jesus will judge the world with love and mercy in Last Judgment:

http://ancientfaith.com/podcasts/namesofjesus/jesus_-_the_judge

Quote from: Fr. Thomas Hopko
He says it in Timothy, St. Paul says: “The Lord desires that all men would be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth.” All people. So he wants salvation. He doesn’t delight in the death of sinners. He doesn’t want hell. He doesn’t make hell and he doesn’t cause hell (...) And this is the judgment: that light is shining in the darkness, but some people prefer darkness; they choose darkness, because their deeds are evil.
(....)
He is raised and glorified, and his Cross is the balance beam of judgment. We will stand before it, and he will look at us, and he will pronounce what we [ourselves] have decided, according to what we [ourselves] have done. Jesus is the Judge, and what a marvelous Judge he is! He judges by not judging. He judges by showing mercy, and he asks us to show mercy, too: “Blessed are the merciful, for they shall be shown mercy.” But if we are not merciful, then that judges us. If we are not loving, if we don’t love light, if we don’t love truth, that judges us.

So we do sort ourselves, in that the way we orient our lives makes manifest whether we prefer light or darkness. But in the rich man and Lazarus, the rich man seems to be saying, "I didn't understand, but now I realize my mistake! Please help!" He doesn't seem to prefer darkness. He'd change if he could. Is it too late?

 "The Lord desires that all men would be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth." I want to think that this could possibly happen. But how do I reconcile that hope with this parable?

If the rich man really does not prefer the hell( darkness), he should ask Abraham to get him away from Hell. But he does not. He just ask Abraham to send  Lazarus to cool his tongue, and then continue staying in hell( darkness).

Anyway , it is just my thought. Is there any other comments on the parable of rich man and Lazarus?
« Last Edit: October 11, 2012, 10:24:07 PM by walter1234 » Logged
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« Reply #47 on: October 12, 2012, 01:28:06 AM »

This podcast in Ancient Faith Radio teach us how Jesus will judge the world with love and mercy in Last Judgment:

http://ancientfaith.com/podcasts/namesofjesus/jesus_-_the_judge

Quote from: Fr. Thomas Hopko
He says it in Timothy, St. Paul says: “The Lord desires that all men would be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth.” All people. So he wants salvation. He doesn’t delight in the death of sinners. He doesn’t want hell. He doesn’t make hell and he doesn’t cause hell (...) And this is the judgment: that light is shining in the darkness, but some people prefer darkness; they choose darkness, because their deeds are evil.
(....)
He is raised and glorified, and his Cross is the balance beam of judgment. We will stand before it, and he will look at us, and he will pronounce what we [ourselves] have decided, according to what we [ourselves] have done. Jesus is the Judge, and what a marvelous Judge he is! He judges by not judging. He judges by showing mercy, and he asks us to show mercy, too: “Blessed are the merciful, for they shall be shown mercy.” But if we are not merciful, then that judges us. If we are not loving, if we don’t love light, if we don’t love truth, that judges us.

So we do sort ourselves, in that the way we orient our lives makes manifest whether we prefer light or darkness. But in the rich man and Lazarus, the rich man seems to be saying, "I didn't understand, but now I realize my mistake! Please help!" He doesn't seem to prefer darkness. He'd change if he could. Is it too late?

 "The Lord desires that all men would be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth." I want to think that this could possibly happen. But how do I reconcile that hope with this parable?

If the rich man really does not prefer the hell( darkness), he should ask Abraham to get him away from Hell. But he does not. He just ask Abraham to send  Lazarus to cool his tongue, and then continue staying in hell( darkness).

Anyway , it is just my thought. Is there any other comments on the parable of rich man and Lazarus?

This seems to be a general theme. Christ says that in the outer darkness there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Those sent to Hell are frustrated at their lot and wish to escape from it, but they cannot repent. It's only after the rich man is confronted with suffering that he begins to regret his former life, but then it's too late. There's no repentance in Hades.
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« Reply #48 on: October 12, 2012, 06:49:40 AM »

This podcast in Ancient Faith Radio teach us how Jesus will judge the world with love and mercy in Last Judgment:

http://ancientfaith.com/podcasts/namesofjesus/jesus_-_the_judge

Quote from: Fr. Thomas Hopko
He says it in Timothy, St. Paul says: “The Lord desires that all men would be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth.” All people. So he wants salvation. He doesn’t delight in the death of sinners. He doesn’t want hell. He doesn’t make hell and he doesn’t cause hell (...) And this is the judgment: that light is shining in the darkness, but some people prefer darkness; they choose darkness, because their deeds are evil.
(....)
He is raised and glorified, and his Cross is the balance beam of judgment. We will stand before it, and he will look at us, and he will pronounce what we [ourselves] have decided, according to what we [ourselves] have done. Jesus is the Judge, and what a marvelous Judge he is! He judges by not judging. He judges by showing mercy, and he asks us to show mercy, too: “Blessed are the merciful, for they shall be shown mercy.” But if we are not merciful, then that judges us. If we are not loving, if we don’t love light, if we don’t love truth, that judges us.

So we do sort ourselves, in that the way we orient our lives makes manifest whether we prefer light or darkness. But in the rich man and Lazarus, the rich man seems to be saying, "I didn't understand, but now I realize my mistake! Please help!" He doesn't seem to prefer darkness. He'd change if he could. Is it too late?

 "The Lord desires that all men would be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth." I want to think that this could possibly happen. But how do I reconcile that hope with this parable?

If the rich man really does not prefer the hell( darkness), he should ask Abraham to get him away from Hell. But he does not. He just ask Abraham to send  Lazarus to cool his tongue, and then continue staying in hell( darkness).

Anyway , it is just my thought. Is there any other comments on the parable of rich man and Lazarus?

This seems to be a general theme. Christ says that in the outer darkness there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Those sent to Hell are frustrated at their lot and wish to escape from it, but they cannot repent. It's only after the rich man is confronted with suffering that he begins to regret his former life, but then it's too late. There's no repentance in Hades.

THe sinners in hell cannot repent and there is no repetntance in hell anymore.

It is  because God will not give the sinners in hell any chance to repent ? Or GOd will no longer accept their repentances? Or the sinners themselves are not willing to repent after they go to hell ?

Which one is correct?
« Last Edit: October 12, 2012, 07:01:41 AM by walter1234 » Logged
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« Reply #49 on: October 12, 2012, 07:18:20 AM »

Many sinners who get addicted to drug are  in pains and torments. They are also frustrated a lot and want to give it up. However, finally, most of them still keep eating the drug and cling to this sin.

Would it be possible that the sinners in hell are in pain and torments due to their sins, but they still cling to their sins?

Is it possible that the sinners themselves  are still not willing to repent and give up their sin after they go to in hell and being tormented, so they are in pains and torments forevever?
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« Reply #50 on: October 12, 2012, 10:58:15 AM »

If the rich man really does not prefer the hell( darkness), he should ask Abraham to get him away from Hell. But he does not. He just ask Abraham to send  Lazarus to cool his tongue, and then continue staying in the place of torments.

That's a good observation. I was scouring old threads to see if this had been discussed before, and I came upon Orthodox View of the Rich Man and Lazarus? from last year. John Ward suggested something similar to what you're saying, but I don't know if this is a common opinion.
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« Reply #51 on: October 12, 2012, 11:18:39 AM »

Just use the people who get addicted to smoking, drug, alcohol, gambling as example. We will know how the situation of the rich man in hell is.

When people get addicted to smoking, drugs, alcohol, gambling, they would feel pain and uncomfortable.However, they still enjoy doing so.  They will also feel sarrow, frustrated, but they still enjoy smoking, gambling, taking drugs and drinking alcohol . They also want to get away from all these pains and torments (which come from smoking, gambling , taking drugs and drinking alcohol) , but they still enjoy doing so and most of them still cling to these  sins in the end of their life.

Most of the people who get addicted to smoking, drugs, alcohols know what they do is wrong and they are in pain, so they do not want their son, daughters or other family members imitate them and suffer these pains with them.

I think this can help us understand how the conidition of the rich man( who get addicted to sins) is in hell.
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« Reply #52 on: October 12, 2012, 03:23:56 PM »

Just use the people who get addicted to smoking, drug, alcohol, gambling as example. We will know how the situation of the rich man in hell is.

But addicts are not lost causes, especially when they have the help of community. Is that why, through the prayers of St. Varus, people who have died outside the Church have made it to Heaven? And I feel like I read a story about a wicked monk who went to Hell, but through prayers, his spiritual child was able to save him.

I was looking for more info on the Rich Man and Lazarus, and found this excerpt from Life After Death by Metropolitan Hierotheos Vlachos of Nafpaktos. It's all a fantastic read, but this part seemed particularly relevant:

Quote
According to the teaching of the holy Fathers, when a person enters into repentance, the stage of purification, he progresses continually. Perfecting continues both in the `intermediate’ stage and in the life after the Second Coming. The stages of the spiritual life are purification, illumination and deification. These are not to be conceived as water-tight states, but as degrees of participation in the grace of God. If a person is struggling to be purified, the grace of God which is purifying him is called purifying energy. When the nous is illuminated, it means that it is receiving the energy of God which illuminates it, and this is called illuminating energy. And when he is in the process of deification, this happens by the grace of God which is called deifying. The process is continuous. Thus those who have repented before their soul’s departure from the body, progress and become increasingly receptive to uncreated grace. Therefore we hold memorial services and pray for those who have fallen asleep.

However, since those who did not repent before their soul left the body do not have spiritual vision, they experience only the caustic energy of God and will never participate in the good. But we pray for all, because we do not know their inner spiritual condition.

Again, I'm not sure how this fits in with the cases of St. Varus or the wicked monk, but if Metropolitan Hierotheos covers everything in this description with the same thoroughness as when he talks about the rich man and Lazarus, I may be getting a new book.
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« Reply #53 on: October 15, 2012, 04:22:30 PM »

Surprised there were not more direct answers.

ABSOLUTELY the Eastern Orthodox Church believes that HELL is a place where the person/soul in hell burns in eternal fire where the worm never dies.
Not trying to be insulting, but this belief is seriously Orthodox 101 folks.   

We must have had different teachers. Archpriest George Florovsky, for example:

Quote
Are Christians, as Christians, necessarily committed to the belief in the Immortality of the human soul? And what does Immortality actually mean in the Christian universe of discourse? These questions are by no means just rhetorical ones. Etienne Gilson, in his Gifford lectures, felt himself compelled to make the following startling statement: "On the whole," he said, "Christianity without an Immortality of the soul is not altogether inconceivable, the proof is that it has been so conceived. What is, on the contrary, absolutely inconceivable, is Christianity without a Resurrection of Man." The striking feature of the early history of the Christian doctrine of Man was that many of the leading writers of the second century seem to have emphatically denied the (natural) immortality of the soul.

http://www.fatheralexander.org/booklets/english/immortality_soul.htm

The idea of conditional immortality of the soul would appear to have considerable support from the Fathers. I should think this would be an acceptable theologoumenon for an Orthodox Christian.
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« Reply #54 on: October 15, 2012, 05:19:55 PM »

Surprised there were not more direct answers.

ABSOLUTELY the Eastern Orthodox Church believes that HELL is a place where the person/soul in hell burns in eternal fire where the worm never dies.
Not trying to be insulting, but this belief is seriously Orthodox 101 folks.   

We must have had different teachers. Archpriest George Florovsky, for example:

Quote
Are Christians, as Christians, necessarily committed to the belief in the Immortality of the human soul? And what does Immortality actually mean in the Christian universe of discourse? These questions are by no means just rhetorical ones. Etienne Gilson, in his Gifford lectures, felt himself compelled to make the following startling statement: "On the whole," he said, "Christianity without an Immortality of the soul is not altogether inconceivable, the proof is that it has been so conceived. What is, on the contrary, absolutely inconceivable, is Christianity without a Resurrection of Man." The striking feature of the early history of the Christian doctrine of Man was that many of the leading writers of the second century seem to have emphatically denied the (natural) immortality of the soul.

http://www.fatheralexander.org/booklets/english/immortality_soul.htm

The idea of conditional immortality of the soul would appear to have considerable support from the Fathers. I should think this would be an acceptable theologoumenon for an Orthodox Christian.


I don't think he was talking about the conditional immortality of the soul, but the eternity of Hell. The belief that Hell is not eternal is a heresy, condemned at the Fifth Ecumenical Council. As far as I can tell, the OO believe this, too. Everyone will be resurrected: some to eternal joy, others to eternal torment.
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« Reply #55 on: October 16, 2012, 01:55:52 AM »

Surprised there were not more direct answers.

ABSOLUTELY the Eastern Orthodox Church believes that HELL is a place where the person/soul in hell burns in eternal fire where the worm never dies.
Not trying to be insulting, but this belief is seriously Orthodox 101 folks.   

We must have had different teachers. Archpriest George Florovsky, for example:

Quote
Are Christians, as Christians, necessarily committed to the belief in the Immortality of the human soul? And what does Immortality actually mean in the Christian universe of discourse? These questions are by no means just rhetorical ones. Etienne Gilson, in his Gifford lectures, felt himself compelled to make the following startling statement: "On the whole," he said, "Christianity without an Immortality of the soul is not altogether inconceivable, the proof is that it has been so conceived. What is, on the contrary, absolutely inconceivable, is Christianity without a Resurrection of Man." The striking feature of the early history of the Christian doctrine of Man was that many of the leading writers of the second century seem to have emphatically denied the (natural) immortality of the soul.

http://www.fatheralexander.org/booklets/english/immortality_soul.htm

The idea of conditional immortality of the soul would appear to have considerable support from the Fathers. I should think this would be an acceptable theologoumenon for an Orthodox Christian.


I don't think he was talking about the conditional immortality of the soul, but the eternity of Hell. The belief that Hell is not eternal is a heresy, condemned at the Fifth Ecumenical Council. As far as I can tell, the OO believe this, too. Everyone will be resurrected: some to eternal joy, others to eternal torment.

Did you read the article? If so, you cannot think that. It is called "The Immortality of the Soul", not "Eternal Hell".

Why are you trying to change the subject?
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« Reply #56 on: October 16, 2012, 02:29:45 AM »

Surprised there were not more direct answers.

ABSOLUTELY the Eastern Orthodox Church believes that HELL is a place where the person/soul in hell burns in eternal fire where the worm never dies.
Not trying to be insulting, but this belief is seriously Orthodox 101 folks.   

We must have had different teachers. Archpriest George Florovsky, for example:

Quote
Are Christians, as Christians, necessarily committed to the belief in the Immortality of the human soul? And what does Immortality actually mean in the Christian universe of discourse? These questions are by no means just rhetorical ones. Etienne Gilson, in his Gifford lectures, felt himself compelled to make the following startling statement: "On the whole," he said, "Christianity without an Immortality of the soul is not altogether inconceivable, the proof is that it has been so conceived. What is, on the contrary, absolutely inconceivable, is Christianity without a Resurrection of Man." The striking feature of the early history of the Christian doctrine of Man was that many of the leading writers of the second century seem to have emphatically denied the (natural) immortality of the soul.

http://www.fatheralexander.org/booklets/english/immortality_soul.htm

The idea of conditional immortality of the soul would appear to have considerable support from the Fathers. I should think this would be an acceptable theologoumenon for an Orthodox Christian.


I don't think he was talking about the conditional immortality of the soul, but the eternity of Hell. The belief that Hell is not eternal is a heresy, condemned at the Fifth Ecumenical Council. As far as I can tell, the OO believe this, too. Everyone will be resurrected: some to eternal joy, others to eternal torment.

Did you read the article? If so, you cannot think that. It is called "The Immortality of the Soul", not "Eternal Hell".

Why are you trying to change the subject?

Um, why are you changing the subject? Yeshuaisiam was pointing out that the eternity of Hell is not up for discussion. You bring up the question of whether the soul is immortal by nature or by grace, which is a red herring.
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« Reply #57 on: October 16, 2012, 02:51:35 AM »

Surprised there were not more direct answers.

ABSOLUTELY the Eastern Orthodox Church believes that HELL is a place where the person/soul in hell burns in eternal fire where the worm never dies.
Not trying to be insulting, but this belief is seriously Orthodox 101 folks.   

No, I was responding to the quote above.

We must have had different teachers. Archpriest George Florovsky, for example:

Quote
Are Christians, as Christians, necessarily committed to the belief in the Immortality of the human soul? And what does Immortality actually mean in the Christian universe of discourse? These questions are by no means just rhetorical ones. Etienne Gilson, in his Gifford lectures, felt himself compelled to make the following startling statement: "On the whole," he said, "Christianity without an Immortality of the soul is not altogether inconceivable, the proof is that it has been so conceived. What is, on the contrary, absolutely inconceivable, is Christianity without a Resurrection of Man." The striking feature of the early history of the Christian doctrine of Man was that many of the leading writers of the second century seem to have emphatically denied the (natural) immortality of the soul.

http://www.fatheralexander.org/booklets/english/immortality_soul.htm

The idea of conditional immortality of the soul would appear to have considerable support from the Fathers. I should think this would be an acceptable theologoumenon for an Orthodox Christian.


I don't think he was talking about the conditional immortality of the soul, but the eternity of Hell. The belief that Hell is not eternal is a heresy, condemned at the Fifth Ecumenical Council. As far as I can tell, the OO believe this, too. Everyone will be resurrected: some to eternal joy, others to eternal torment.

Did you read the article? If so, you cannot think that. It is called "The Immortality of the Soul", not "Eternal Hell".

Why are you trying to change the subject?

Um, why are you changing the subject? Yeshuaisiam was pointing out that the eternity of Hell is not up for discussion. You bring up the question of whether the soul is immortal by nature or by grace, which is a red herring.

I am responding to the quote above
Quote
the Eastern Orthodox Church believes that HELL is a place where the person/soul in hell burns in eternal fire
, with an article which you incorrectly interpreted. If the soul is conditionally immortal, this statement is false. That much should be clear.
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« Reply #58 on: October 16, 2012, 04:00:26 AM »

I am responding to the quote above
Quote
the Eastern Orthodox Church believes that HELL is a place where the person/soul in hell burns in eternal fire
, with an article which you incorrectly interpreted. If the soul is conditionally immortal, this statement is false. That much should be clear.


I think either you're misreading the sentence you've quoted or misunderstanding the distinction that Jonathan was making. What you've quoted does not say that the soul will burn eternally but that the fire in which it burns is eternal. There is a distinct difference. Even if the soul were to be consumed in that fire that would not mean that the fire itself is not eternal - indeed when you think of said fire as the inescapable love of God (which I doubt is an idea that is unfamiliar to you) how could it possibly be anything but eternal? Whether or not the soul is only conditionally immortal is, as Jonathan said, a red herring. As for conditional immortality of the human soul, I don't think it's a theologoumenon at all. I fail to see how Orthodoxy leaves any room for any conclusion other than that only God is immortal and that all creation is sustained by Him. That still doesn't mean hell is not eternal.

James
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« Reply #59 on: October 16, 2012, 09:23:04 AM »

I am responding to the quote above
Quote
the Eastern Orthodox Church believes that HELL is a place where the person/soul in hell burns in eternal fire
, with an article which you incorrectly interpreted. If the soul is conditionally immortal, this statement is false. That much should be clear.


I think either you're misreading the sentence you've quoted or misunderstanding the distinction that Jonathan was making. What you've quoted does not say that the soul will burn eternally but that the fire in which it burns is eternal. There is a distinct difference. Even if the soul were to be consumed in that fire that would not mean that the fire itself is not eternal - indeed when you think of said fire as the inescapable love of God (which I doubt is an idea that is unfamiliar to you) how could it possibly be anything but eternal? Whether or not the soul is only conditionally immortal is, as Jonathan said, a red herring. As for conditional immortality of the human soul, I don't think it's a theologoumenon at all. I fail to see how Orthodoxy leaves any room for any conclusion other than that only God is immortal and that all creation is sustained by Him. That still doesn't mean hell is not eternal.

James

I agree with much of this and am fine with the idea that hell is eternal, the flame is eternal, and the punishment--separation from God-- is eternal. The important distinction is that whilst the soul may burn in the eternal fire, the soul does not necessarily burn eternally.

Quote
As for conditional immortality of the human soul, I don't think it's a theologoumenon at all. I fail to see how Orthodoxy leaves any room for any conclusion other than that only God is immortal and that all creation is sustained by Him.
Now you are arguing a straw man, since what you've quoted could be perfectly consistent with the notion, explained by Archpriest Florovsky, that the soul apart from God is natural and mortal, and its immortality is only sustained by Him--I.e. conditional immortality.
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« Reply #60 on: October 16, 2012, 10:15:22 AM »

Quote
As for conditional immortality of the human soul, I don't think it's a theologoumenon at all. I fail to see how Orthodoxy leaves any room for any conclusion other than that only God is immortal and that all creation is sustained by Him.
Now you are arguing a straw man, since what you've quoted could be perfectly consistent with the notion, explained by Archpriest Florovsky, that the soul apart from God is natural and mortal, and its immortality is only sustained by Him--I.e. conditional immortality.


Now you've misunderstood me. I'm arguing no straw man. Not only could it be consistent with what Archpriest Florovsky wrote, I was saying exactly the same thing. What I meant is that I can't see how Orthodoxy leaves any room for another option. In other words, I only differed with you on whether or not the position is a theologoumenon - that would mean it was consistent with but not required by Orthodoxy. I fail to see how the belief that only God is inherently immortal is not a required belief in Orthodoxy.

James
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« Reply #61 on: October 16, 2012, 12:45:25 PM »

Surprised there were not more direct answers.

ABSOLUTELY the Eastern Orthodox Church believes that HELL is a place where the person/soul in hell burns in eternal fire where the worm never dies.
Not trying to be insulting, but this belief is seriously Orthodox 101 folks.   

No, I was responding to the quote above.

We must have had different teachers. Archpriest George Florovsky, for example:

Quote
Are Christians, as Christians, necessarily committed to the belief in the Immortality of the human soul? And what does Immortality actually mean in the Christian universe of discourse? These questions are by no means just rhetorical ones. Etienne Gilson, in his Gifford lectures, felt himself compelled to make the following startling statement: "On the whole," he said, "Christianity without an Immortality of the soul is not altogether inconceivable, the proof is that it has been so conceived. What is, on the contrary, absolutely inconceivable, is Christianity without a Resurrection of Man." The striking feature of the early history of the Christian doctrine of Man was that many of the leading writers of the second century seem to have emphatically denied the (natural) immortality of the soul.

http://www.fatheralexander.org/booklets/english/immortality_soul.htm

The idea of conditional immortality of the soul would appear to have considerable support from the Fathers. I should think this would be an acceptable theologoumenon for an Orthodox Christian.


I don't think he was talking about the conditional immortality of the soul, but the eternity of Hell. The belief that Hell is not eternal is a heresy, condemned at the Fifth Ecumenical Council. As far as I can tell, the OO believe this, too. Everyone will be resurrected: some to eternal joy, others to eternal torment.

Did you read the article? If so, you cannot think that. It is called "The Immortality of the Soul", not "Eternal Hell".

Why are you trying to change the subject?

Um, why are you changing the subject? Yeshuaisiam was pointing out that the eternity of Hell is not up for discussion. You bring up the question of whether the soul is immortal by nature or by grace, which is a red herring.

I am responding to the quote above
Quote
the Eastern Orthodox Church believes that HELL is a place where the person/soul in hell burns in eternal fire
, with an article which you incorrectly interpreted. If the soul is conditionally immortal, this statement is false. That much should be clear.


I don't see anywhere in this article where Fr Florovsky entertains the idea that one's torments in Hell will not be eternal. I think you missed the part about the General Resurrection. First, eternal joy in Paradise, or eternal torment in Gehenna, will not be experienced by the soul alone, but by both soul and body. Second, it's an unquestioned belief that everyone will be resurrected at the last day. The only difference is that some will experience it as joy, others as torment, depending on how they are judged. There is no teaching that some people will eventually die completely, either ending their joy in Paradise or their torment in Gehenna. So yes, the conditional immortality of the soul, which is perfectly Orthodox in itself, does not mean you can hope that those cast into Gehenna will escape. Remember, there is no logical reason why this hypothetical final mortality which you talk about should only apply to those in Hell; why not to those in Heaven, too? But Christ has clearly promised us that whatever happens to us after death and judgment will last forever.
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« Reply #62 on: October 16, 2012, 04:49:01 PM »

Quote
As for conditional immortality of the human soul, I don't think it's a theologoumenon at all. I fail to see how Orthodoxy leaves any room for any conclusion other than that only God is immortal and that all creation is sustained by Him.
Now you are arguing a straw man, since what you've quoted could be perfectly consistent with the notion, explained by Archpriest Florovsky, that the soul apart from God is natural and mortal, and its immortality is only sustained by Him--I.e. conditional immortality.


Now you've misunderstood me. I'm arguing no straw man. Not only could it be consistent with what Archpriest Florovsky wrote, I was saying exactly the same thing. What I meant is that I can't see how Orthodoxy leaves any room for another option. In other words, I only differed with you on whether or not the position is a theologoumenon - that would mean it was consistent with but not required by Orthodoxy. I fail to see how the belief that only God is inherently immortal is not a required belief in Orthodoxy.

James

You are right, I did misunderstand you and you in fact go farther that what I was saying.  I wonder if the consistent witness of the Church suggests this is a "required belief" as you call it.
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« Reply #63 on: October 16, 2012, 05:53:49 PM »

Quote
As for conditional immortality of the human soul, I don't think it's a theologoumenon at all. I fail to see how Orthodoxy leaves any room for any conclusion other than that only God is immortal and that all creation is sustained by Him.
Now you are arguing a straw man, since what you've quoted could be perfectly consistent with the notion, explained by Archpriest Florovsky, that the soul apart from God is natural and mortal, and its immortality is only sustained by Him--I.e. conditional immortality.


Now you've misunderstood me. I'm arguing no straw man. Not only could it be consistent with what Archpriest Florovsky wrote, I was saying exactly the same thing. What I meant is that I can't see how Orthodoxy leaves any room for another option. In other words, I only differed with you on whether or not the position is a theologoumenon - that would mean it was consistent with but not required by Orthodoxy. I fail to see how the belief that only God is inherently immortal is not a required belief in Orthodoxy.

James

You are right, I did misunderstand you and you in fact go farther that what I was saying.  I wonder if the consistent witness of the Church suggests this is a "required belief" as you call it.

Yes.

Annihilationism is a heresy.
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« Reply #64 on: October 16, 2012, 07:50:26 PM »

Quote
As for conditional immortality of the human soul, I don't think it's a theologoumenon at all. I fail to see how Orthodoxy leaves any room for any conclusion other than that only God is immortal and that all creation is sustained by Him.
Now you are arguing a straw man, since what you've quoted could be perfectly consistent with the notion, explained by Archpriest Florovsky, that the soul apart from God is natural and mortal, and its immortality is only sustained by Him--I.e. conditional immortality.


Now you've misunderstood me. I'm arguing no straw man. Not only could it be consistent with what Archpriest Florovsky wrote, I was saying exactly the same thing. What I meant is that I can't see how Orthodoxy leaves any room for another option. In other words, I only differed with you on whether or not the position is a theologoumenon - that would mean it was consistent with but not required by Orthodoxy. I fail to see how the belief that only God is inherently immortal is not a required belief in Orthodoxy.

James

You are right, I did misunderstand you and you in fact go farther that what I was saying.  I wonder if the consistent witness of the Church suggests this is a "required belief" as you call it.

Yes.

Annihilationism is a heresy.

Can you site where and who claimed it as such?
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« Reply #65 on: October 17, 2012, 02:52:02 AM »

Quote
As for conditional immortality of the human soul, I don't think it's a theologoumenon at all. I fail to see how Orthodoxy leaves any room for any conclusion other than that only God is immortal and that all creation is sustained by Him.
Now you are arguing a straw man, since what you've quoted could be perfectly consistent with the notion, explained by Archpriest Florovsky, that the soul apart from God is natural and mortal, and its immortality is only sustained by Him--I.e. conditional immortality.


Now you've misunderstood me. I'm arguing no straw man. Not only could it be consistent with what Archpriest Florovsky wrote, I was saying exactly the same thing. What I meant is that I can't see how Orthodoxy leaves any room for another option. In other words, I only differed with you on whether or not the position is a theologoumenon - that would mean it was consistent with but not required by Orthodoxy. I fail to see how the belief that only God is inherently immortal is not a required belief in Orthodoxy.

James

You are right, I did misunderstand you and you in fact go farther that what I was saying.  I wonder if the consistent witness of the Church suggests this is a "required belief" as you call it.

Yes.

Annihilationism is a heresy.

Which Ecumenical Council declared that? I must have missed that. Local council of Kiev? Wink

I think conditional immortality is neither dogma nor heresy but rather just theologoumenon.
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« Reply #66 on: October 17, 2012, 03:58:57 AM »

I think conditional immortality is neither dogma nor heresy but rather just theologoumenon.

To me you seem to be coming at this in rather a legalistic fashion. I don't doubt that there's no dogma declared by an Ecumenical council regarding conditional immortality of the human soul, but I fail to see how it can possibly be a permissible belief that the human soul is inherently immortal given that we believe that all existence is dependent on God and especially given that Scripture clearly identifies God as the only immortal:

I urge you in the sight of God who gives life to all things, and before Christ Jesus who witnessed the good confession before Pontius Pilate, that you keep this commandment without spot, blameless until our Lord Jesus Christ’s appearing, which He will manifest in His own time, He who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings and Lord of lords, who alone has immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see, to whom be honor and everlasting power. Amen.  1 Timothy 13 -16


I don't know about you but I don't believe we need the decision of an Ecumenical council before we take Scripture into account.

James
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We owe greater gratitude to those who humble us, wrong us, and douse us with venom, than to those who nurse us with honour and sweet words, or feed us with tasty food and confections, for bile is the best medicine for our soul. - Elder Paisios of Mount Athos
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« Reply #67 on: October 17, 2012, 04:54:16 PM »

I think conditional immortality is neither dogma nor heresy but rather just theologoumenon.

To me you seem to be coming at this in rather a legalistic fashion. I don't doubt that there's no dogma declared by an Ecumenical council regarding conditional immortality of the human soul, but I fail to see how it can possibly be a permissible belief that the human soul is inherently immortal given that we believe that all existence is dependent on God and especially given that Scripture clearly identifies God as the only immortal:

I urge you in the sight of God who gives life to all things, and before Christ Jesus who witnessed the good confession before Pontius Pilate, that you keep this commandment without spot, blameless until our Lord Jesus Christ’s appearing, which He will manifest in His own time, He who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings and Lord of lords, who alone has immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see, to whom be honor and everlasting power. Amen.  1 Timothy 13 -16


I don't know about you but I don't believe we need the decision of an Ecumenical council before we take Scripture into account.

James

This is a funny thread. You are challenging me to consider conditional immortality as received doctrine, whilst another poster is challenging me and suggesting that it is heresy (or at least that annihilationism is). I am feeling squeezed in the middle of two antipodal forces. Shocked

Actually, I agree with you that we believe a lot of things that are not declared dogma, for example the Dormition of the Theotokos. Yet if conditional immortality is part of the Deposit of the Faith, I would want to see examples not just from Scripture, but also the Fathers (I know there are plenty), liturgy, icons and hymns. If you could show me examples from the last three--liturgy, icons and hymns--I would be more convinced that your (and my) understanding of Scripture on this issue is correct. Otherwise, your interpretation of Scripture could just be criticised as an innovation (I do not think it is). Would that it were doctrine, but I think it is more like theologoumenon.
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