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Author Topic: For all who constantly dissect, question, and evaluate everything abt Orthodoxy.  (Read 1213 times) Average Rating: 0
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Nikolaostheservant
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« on: September 30, 2012, 02:32:16 PM »

One thing i notice is the amt of questioning everything, from our converts and enquirers.

I have said on here before that our faith is abt faith not logic.

this priest/monk says it very nicely.

except it the begingin he makes a mistake and says "crotch instead of "crutch'...i found that funny and worth watching.

Hope it helps in your search.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JSRKZGc_BlY


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« Reply #1 on: October 01, 2012, 01:00:21 AM »

One thing i notice is the amt of questioning everything, from our converts and enquirers.

I have said on here before that our faith is abt faith not logic.

But what if the Mormons got to you first, and gave you this advice?
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« Reply #2 on: October 01, 2012, 04:12:02 AM »

I dissagree that Orthodoxy can only be justified by faith as it were. We need a reason as well as faith from which to convert and discern truth from falsehood. I didn't convert to Orthodoxy because I felt it was true, I converted because I am convinced it is true and in the witness and faith of the church. Its both not neither.
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« Reply #3 on: October 01, 2012, 04:50:11 AM »

As Aba Raetta Habeeb Ibn Hadetha el-Takriti el-Yacoubi el-Syriani of Serug (North Iraq) is recorded to have said:

"One can postulate that the Christian religion is either true or false. And those
who accept it are either sensible or senseless. The sensible will not accept anything
incomprehensible except by force, and the senseless will not accept such a thing except by the
sword because it would keep them from fulfilling worldly human desires. Christianity was
presented and accepted by both the sensible and the senseless. All of them were forced not by the
sword but instead by the wonders from heaven. And this is the most powerful proof that
Christianity is the truth and the proper religion and is explained by verses from God, and by God
is the triumph!"

(Source: Coptic priest Ibn Kabar "The Lamp that Enlightens the Darkness" -- 14th century treatise on religion)
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« Reply #4 on: October 01, 2012, 08:19:17 AM »

One thing i notice is the amt of questioning everything, from our converts and enquirers.

I have said on here before that our faith is abt faith not logic.

But what if the Mormons got to you first, and gave you this advice?

Agree but there are degrees, converts can burn out with to much research, questions and study, we should all start out as babies eating what we can digest and advance to the full meal deal.  However this also depends on where the convert starts from, the more theological background may require more facts with faith.
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« Reply #5 on: October 01, 2012, 09:05:46 AM »

I don't have a problem with research, but if someone bases their conversion on it I can see problems. Eventually they'll see that isn't as cut-and-dry as they once thought, based on imperfect humans running things, and it throws some into a crisis.

Conversion must be about Christ and wanting to know Him in the same context and means as He gave us to know Him. Any reason based on man is precarious.
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« Reply #6 on: October 01, 2012, 10:02:48 AM »

I'm not saying don't question.
What I'm saying is, every little thing does not need to be questioned/explained in detail...have a little Faith.
you know as well as i everything in a faith cannot be logically explained.
Something must move you deep down to say hey yea i feel it, there is something to this.
its like lightning striking, in a flash you realise you were on the wrong path and suddenly you see the right path.
once you know/see the right path, nothing can discourage you from travelling it. at least that is how it went for me.
Also the fact that Orthodoxy is the closest we can get to the true church that is enough for most.
you will never make a decision abt converting if you question everything, you will be trapped in a never ending circle of questions....that cannot be answered to your satisfaction.
ever hear the phrase "leap of faith"....take it.... jump, you have found the right path, put your foot on it and start walking.
don't let your intelect get in the way, its just other forces using it to keep you away.

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« Reply #7 on: October 01, 2012, 10:08:29 AM »

I don't have a problem with research, but if someone bases their conversion on it I can see problems. Eventually they'll see that isn't as cut-and-dry as they once thought, based on imperfect humans running things, and it throws some into a crisis.

Conversion must be about Christ and wanting to know Him in the same context and means as He gave us to know Him. Any reason based on man is precarious.

I like this "Conversion must be about Christ and wanting to know Him".

Yes, you know there will be human errors in 2000 yrs, no doubt. there will be instances where people of authority abuse there power (has happened it all religions), cheating, lying..... but that is when faith is needed. that is when i say i know God and my Orthodox religion and just cause mr. bob did this does not mean im on the wrong path.
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« Reply #8 on: October 01, 2012, 11:56:47 AM »

One thing i notice is the amt of questioning everything, from our converts and enquirers.

I have said on here before that our faith is abt faith not logic.

But what if the Mormons got to you first, and gave you this advice?

Agree but there are degrees, converts can burn out with to much research, questions and study, we should all start out as babies eating what we can digest and advance to the full meal deal.  However this also depends on where the convert starts from, the more theological background may require more facts with faith.

Exactly !
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« Reply #9 on: October 01, 2012, 12:49:48 PM »

One thing i notice is the amt of questioning everything, from our converts and enquirers.

I have said on here before that our faith is abt faith not logic.

But what if the Mormons got to you first, and gave you this advice?

I know next to nothing of Mormans jsut that romney is one.
BUT a huge factor, a huge plus for Orthodoxy is that it is the closest one can go to be connected with the 1st church!
dont think mormans can say that.
I belive the close to the source u can get the better.
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« Reply #10 on: October 01, 2012, 01:41:20 PM »

One thing i notice is the amt of questioning everything, from our converts and enquirers.

I have said on here before that our faith is abt faith not logic.

But what if the Mormons got to you first, and gave you this advice?

I know next to nothing of Mormans jsut that romney is one.
BUT a huge factor, a huge plus for Orthodoxy is that it is the closest one can go to be connected with the 1st church!
dont think mormans can say that.
I belive the close to the source u can get the better.


That is where you get the argument.  They will teach that the church did fall into apostasy and they are the one returning it to the original faith.
1. After the Apostles the church fell into to apostasy.
2. the Bible was changed.
3. Church Authority was corrupted.
etc.

No amount of historical connection will change that doctrine.  You have too be open to the truth and let the Spirit guide you as you experience and explore Orthodoxy.
 
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« Reply #11 on: October 01, 2012, 02:46:02 PM »

One thing i notice is the amt of questioning everything, from our converts and enquirers.

I have said on here before that our faith is abt faith not logic.

But what if the Mormons got to you first, and gave you this advice?

I know next to nothing of Mormans jsut that romney is one.
BUT a huge factor, a huge plus for Orthodoxy is that it is the closest one can go to be connected with the 1st church!
dont think mormans can say that.
I belive the close to the source u can get the better.


That is where you get the argument.  They will teach that the church did fall into apostasy and they are the one returning it to the original faith.
1. After the Apostles the church fell into to apostasy.
2. the Bible was changed.
3. Church Authority was corrupted.
etc.

No amount of historical connection will change that doctrine.  You have too be open to the truth and let the Spirit guide you as you experience and explore Orthodoxy.
 

you were replying to me?

if yes~ the Orthodox church did no such thing, they stayed on the path that it began!
the Catholic church veered off, not the orthodox.
do you know of another church that is closer to the original?

or r u referring to something else?
there were changes yes and controversies.... but you cant turn back time and be transported back then. so the best thing one can do is find the closest point to the beginning and go with it from there.

Reason i say this is cause the closer to the source~~~then the closer to the truth you are.

If i know 100 people and i give #1 a message and tell him to pass it on to the next guy, and so on till the 100th. i guaranty you the message will be somewhat altered by the time it reaches #100. so if i want to find out the truest most accurate message originally given, i will have to get as close to the beginning as possible, no?

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« Reply #12 on: October 01, 2012, 04:32:48 PM »

One thing i notice is the amt of questioning everything, from our converts and enquirers.

I have said on here before that our faith is abt faith not logic.

But what if the Mormons got to you first, and gave you this advice?

I know next to nothing of Mormans jsut that romney is one.
BUT a huge factor, a huge plus for Orthodoxy is that it is the closest one can go to be connected with the 1st church!
dont think mormans can say that.
I belive the close to the source u can get the better.


That is where you get the argument.  They will teach that the church did fall into apostasy and they are the one returning it to the original faith.
1. After the Apostles the church fell into to apostasy.
2. the Bible was changed.
3. Church Authority was corrupted.
etc.

No amount of historical connection will change that doctrine.  You have too be open to the truth and let the Spirit guide you as you experience and explore Orthodoxy.
  

you were replying to me?

if yes~ the Orthodox church did no such thing, they stayed on the path that it began!
the Catholic church veered off, not the orthodox.
do you know of another church that is closer to the original?

or r u referring to something else?
there were changes yes and controversies.... but you cant turn back time and be transported back then. so the best thing one can do is find the closest point to the beginning and go with it from there.

Reason i say this is cause the closer to the source~~~then the closer to the truth you are.

If i know 100 people and i give #1 a message and tell him to pass it on to the next guy, and so on till the 100th. i guaranty you the message will be somewhat altered by the time it reaches #100. so if i want to find out the truest most accurate message originally given, i will have to get as close to the beginning as possible, no?


Oh I agree the Orthodox church is the true faith.
What I was saying is that Mormons would claim they are the true restoration of the true church and we are following a corrupted version.  If we do not inquire (converts) how then do we know the real truth not subjective truth that seems to be the trend in western thought.

My old Priest used to say, "show me a church that practiced the same doctrine all the way back to the apostles and I will join that church", he is still Orthodox.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2012, 04:36:24 PM by soderquj » Logged

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« Reply #13 on: October 01, 2012, 05:20:18 PM »

One thing i notice is the amt of questioning everything, from our converts and enquirers.

I have said on here before that our faith is abt faith not logic.

But what if the Mormons got to you first, and gave you this advice?

I know next to nothing of Mormans jsut that romney is one.
BUT a huge factor, a huge plus for Orthodoxy is that it is the closest one can go to be connected with the 1st church!
dont think mormans can say that.
I belive the close to the source u can get the better.


That is where you get the argument.  They will teach that the church did fall into apostasy and they are the one returning it to the original faith.
1. After the Apostles the church fell into to apostasy.
2. the Bible was changed.
3. Church Authority was corrupted.
etc.

No amount of historical connection will change that doctrine.  You have too be open to the truth and let the Spirit guide you as you experience and explore Orthodoxy.
 

you were replying to me?

if yes~ the Orthodox church did no such thing, they stayed on the path that it began!
the Catholic church veered off, not the orthodox.
do you know of another church that is closer to the original?

or r u referring to something else?
there were changes yes and controversies.... but you cant turn back time and be transported back then. so the best thing one can do is find the closest point to the beginning and go with it from there.

Reason i say this is cause the closer to the source~~~then the closer to the truth you are.

If i know 100 people and i give #1 a message and tell him to pass it on to the next guy, and so on till the 100th. i guaranty you the message will be somewhat altered by the time it reaches #100. so if i want to find out the truest most accurate message originally given, i will have to get as close to the beginning as possible, no?



So you think the deposit of faith is corrupted?
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« Reply #14 on: October 01, 2012, 05:23:29 PM »

Oh ok, yes i see.

Just recently i watched a video on youtub that said 2000 plus christian denominations claim to be the true church.
You can say anything but proving it is the problem and so far orthodoxy is it.
If you wanna get really technical the antoch was the first place Christians started being referred as Christians.
so even though I'm Greek Orthodox~you could say the antioch is the oldest.
here is a video(3 actually) for anyone interested. i believe both things i mentioned above are from this video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TJueCXNUahw

And yes the converts need to ask questions they are just learning the faith. but we get some silly borderline blasphemy questions on here, i mean like petty questions, it gets answered and they still go on and on about it.

And im also right with your priest!
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« Reply #15 on: October 01, 2012, 05:34:04 PM »

One thing i notice is the amt of questioning everything, from our converts and enquirers.

I have said on here before that our faith is abt faith not logic.

But what if the Mormons got to you first, and gave you this advice?

I know next to nothing of Mormans jsut that romney is one.
BUT a huge factor, a huge plus for Orthodoxy is that it is the closest one can go to be connected with the 1st church!
dont think mormans can say that.
I belive the close to the source u can get the better.


That is where you get the argument.  They will teach that the church did fall into apostasy and they are the one returning it to the original faith.
1. After the Apostles the church fell into to apostasy.
2. the Bible was changed.
3. Church Authority was corrupted.
etc.

No amount of historical connection will change that doctrine.  You have too be open to the truth and let the Spirit guide you as you experience and explore Orthodoxy.
 

you were replying to me?

if yes~ the Orthodox church did no such thing, they stayed on the path that it began!
the Catholic church veered off, not the orthodox.
do you know of another church that is closer to the original?

or r u referring to something else?
there were changes yes and controversies.... but you cant turn back time and be transported back then. so the best thing one can do is find the closest point to the beginning and go with it from there.

Reason i say this is cause the closer to the source~~~then the closer to the truth you are.

If i know 100 people and i give #1 a message and tell him to pass it on to the next guy, and so on till the 100th. i guaranty you the message will be somewhat altered by the time it reaches #100. so if i want to find out the truest most accurate message originally given, i will have to get as close to the beginning as possible, no?



So you think the deposit of faith is corrupted?

according to my statement i hate to say it but yes.
its not 100% as it stareted out as. it simply cant be, but its the closest possible for us to get.

I'm referring to things like....well look at the Russian the Antioch the Greek the Romanian. each has some differences in the DL and faith, some of it come from nationality, some from error, some intentionally.
BUT what we do have is the Ecumenical council watching over and correcting errors and if the errors are not corrected then well that groop would gets booted.
its the best system around, with checks and balances.
not like i believe its the Protestants where there are 2000+ denominations of Protestants!
anyone who could get a following would rent a bldg and now he has a church. A N D make up the rules and interpret the bible as he see fit or not evenuse the bible much! and no one can tell him otherwise
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« Reply #16 on: October 02, 2012, 05:59:38 PM »

One thing i notice is the amt of questioning everything, from our converts and enquirers.

I have said on here before that our faith is abt faith not logic.

But what if the Mormons got to you first, and gave you this advice?

I know next to nothing of Mormans jsut that romney is one.
BUT a huge factor, a huge plus for Orthodoxy is that it is the closest one can go to be connected with the 1st church!
dont think mormans can say that.
I belive the close to the source u can get the better.


That is where you get the argument.  They will teach that the church did fall into apostasy and they are the one returning it to the original faith.
1. After the Apostles the church fell into to apostasy.
2. the Bible was changed.
3. Church Authority was corrupted.
etc.

No amount of historical connection will change that doctrine.  You have too be open to the truth and let the Spirit guide you as you experience and explore Orthodoxy.
 

you were replying to me?

if yes~ the Orthodox church did no such thing, they stayed on the path that it began!
the Catholic church veered off, not the orthodox.
do you know of another church that is closer to the original?

or r u referring to something else?
there were changes yes and controversies.... but you cant turn back time and be transported back then. so the best thing one can do is find the closest point to the beginning and go with it from there.

Reason i say this is cause the closer to the source~~~then the closer to the truth you are.

If i know 100 people and i give #1 a message and tell him to pass it on to the next guy, and so on till the 100th. i guaranty you the message will be somewhat altered by the time it reaches #100. so if i want to find out the truest most accurate message originally given, i will have to get as close to the beginning as possible, no?



So you think the deposit of faith is corrupted?

according to my statement i hate to say it but yes.
its not 100% as it stareted out as. it simply cant be, but its the closest possible for us to get.

I'm referring to things like....well look at the Russian the Antioch the Greek the Romanian. each has some differences in the DL and faith, some of it come from nationality, some from error, some intentionally.
BUT what we do have is the Ecumenical council watching over and correcting errors and if the errors are not corrected then well that groop would gets booted.
its the best system around, with checks and balances.
not like i believe its the Protestants where there are 2000+ denominations of Protestants!
anyone who could get a following would rent a bldg and now he has a church. A N D make up the rules and interpret the bible as he see fit or not evenuse the bible much! and no one can tell him otherwise


Except that if your statement is correct, then we should expect a great deal of difference between the faith of the Apostles and that of the Ecumenical Councils.  Before Nicea, there were ten generations since the death and resurrection of Christ; by Nicea II, twenty five generations had passed.
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« Reply #17 on: October 02, 2012, 07:22:34 PM »

One thing i notice is the amt of questioning everything, from our converts and enquirers.

I have said on here before that our faith is abt faith not logic.

But what if the Mormons got to you first, and gave you this advice?

I know next to nothing of Mormans jsut that romney is one.
BUT a huge factor, a huge plus for Orthodoxy is that it is the closest one can go to be connected with the 1st church!
dont think mormans can say that.
I belive the close to the source u can get the better.


That is where you get the argument.  They will teach that the church did fall into apostasy and they are the one returning it to the original faith.
1. After the Apostles the church fell into to apostasy.
2. the Bible was changed.
3. Church Authority was corrupted.
etc.

No amount of historical connection will change that doctrine.  You have too be open to the truth and let the Spirit guide you as you experience and explore Orthodoxy.
  

you were replying to me?

if yes~ the Orthodox church did no such thing, they stayed on the path that it began!
the Catholic church veered off, not the orthodox.
do you know of another church that is closer to the original?

or r u referring to something else?
there were changes yes and controversies.... but you cant turn back time and be transported back then. so the best thing one can do is find the closest point to the beginning and go with it from there.

Reason i say this is cause the closer to the source~~~then the closer to the truth you are.

If i know 100 people and i give #1 a message and tell him to pass it on to the next guy, and so on till the 100th. i guaranty you the message will be somewhat altered by the time it reaches #100. so if i want to find out the truest most accurate message originally given, i will have to get as close to the beginning as possible, no?



So you think the deposit of faith is corrupted?

according to my statement i hate to say it but yes.
its not 100% as it stareted out as. it simply cant be, but its the closest possible for us to get.

I'm referring to things like....well look at the Russian the Antioch the Greek the Romanian. each has some differences in the DL and faith, some of it come from nationality, some from error, some intentionally.
BUT what we do have is the Ecumenical council watching over and correcting errors and if the errors are not corrected then well that groop would gets booted.
its the best system around, with checks and balances.
not like i believe its the Protestants where there are 2000+ denominations of Protestants!
anyone who could get a following would rent a bldg and now he has a church. A N D make up the rules and interpret the bible as he see fit or not evenuse the bible much! and no one can tell him otherwise


Except that if your statement is correct, then we should expect a great deal of difference between the faith of the Apostles and that of the Ecumenical Councils.  Before Nicea, there were ten generations since the death and resurrection of Christ; by Nicea II, twenty five generations had passed.

well, what do you think?
Do you think it possible everything to be the same???
Did you know church was 1st celebrated in individual homes, by the womem of the house, before it was centralised on a comon church?
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« Reply #18 on: October 02, 2012, 07:25:40 PM »

what I'm trying to convey is that, its as close as close can be! without a time machine.
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« Reply #19 on: October 02, 2012, 08:39:57 PM »

Did you know church was 1st celebrated in individual homes, by the womem of the house, before it was centralised on a comon church?
Sources for this?

I mean let's ignore the Apostles, Seven Deacons, etc.
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« Reply #20 on: October 02, 2012, 09:06:12 PM »

Did you know church was 1st celebrated in individual homes, by the womem of the house, before it was centralised on a comon church?
Sources for this?

I mean let's ignore the Apostles, Seven Deacons, etc.

very informative show.
Its mentioned within the first hour.
sorry dint feel like re watching it right now.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=miUGpC6ba0Y
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« Reply #21 on: October 03, 2012, 08:21:06 AM »

Not a bad version however, I am always wary of documentaries as authoritative, yes there were home churches but no real record for women officiating them.  I have also seen a lot on Nation Geographic, A&E and History Channel that is shear bunk when it comes to Christianity.  I will error on the side of caution.  They contain real information but also opinion.
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« Reply #22 on: October 03, 2012, 11:02:03 AM »

Not a bad version however, I am always wary of documentaries as authoritative, yes there were home churches but no real record for women officiating them.  I have also seen a lot on Nation Geographic, A&E and History Channel that is shear bunk when it comes to Christianity.  I will error on the side of caution.  They contain real information but also opinion.

yes true.
do you think he is just surmising the women part.
re watched it and it sounds like his thought process is, since it was in the home its probable that the women were serving cause afterall the women are in charge of the household  things?
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dzheremi
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« Reply #23 on: October 03, 2012, 12:39:27 PM »

Our Coptic Orthodox church here in Albuquerque still meets in an individual home (at least until January, when the new church building will be ready, God willing). A woman even lives there full time in the house, since it is, after all, her house. She does not, however, officiate at the liturgy.

Such opinions are pure (wrong) speculation, as there is no proof otherwise, just twisted pseudo-historical inference. Remember a few months ago when everyone was up in arms after some "scholar" claimed to have found evidence of homosexual marriages blessed by the Church? This is more of the same. There is a certain substratum of academia that is actively hostile to religion, especially Christianity, and this one of the more covert ways that they seek to destroy it. Don't buy into it.
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soderquj
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« Reply #24 on: October 03, 2012, 01:13:10 PM »

Not a bad version however, I am always wary of documentaries as authoritative, yes there were home churches but no real record for women officiating them.  I have also seen a lot on Nation Geographic, A&E and History Channel that is shear bunk when it comes to Christianity.  I will error on the side of caution.  They contain real information but also opinion.

yes true.
do you think he is just surmising the women part.
re watched it and it sounds like his thought process is, since it was in the home its probable that the women were serving cause afterall the women are in charge of the household  things?

There were already Bishops, Priest and Deacons, were they just ignored during this period.  They are using conjecture seeing that most households were ruled by the women of the house does not mean the house church was.  
« Last Edit: October 03, 2012, 01:13:58 PM by soderquj » Logged

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Nikolaostheservant
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« Reply #25 on: October 03, 2012, 01:22:04 PM »

gotch, dont belive every tihgn you hear! we should still keep an open mind though, it realy cant be proven eitherway. so we let it go as such.

go u think there Is proof that the actual liturgy was performed in individual homes though?
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CatherineBrigid
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« Reply #26 on: October 04, 2012, 12:10:13 AM »

Something must move you deep down to say hey yea i feel it, there is something to this.

once you know/see the right path, nothing can discourage you from travelling it. at least that is how it went for me.


That's how it went for me, too.  I started listening to Ancient Faith Radio for the soothing and holy music.. through that, I learned that there was such a thing as Orthodoxy.  Which led me to read and study more, and more, and more over the past year...all of which confirmed or affirmed the "inner tug" I'd been feeling towards Orthodoxy.  My first visit to an Orthodox Church a couple weeks ago firmly nailed down the decision for me, that yes, this is the way I need to go.  Not being guided by emotion, or guided solely by studies and intellectual reasoning, but rather, the studies/reasoning meshed with what I sensed spiritually... it all resonated with was was (is) growing in my heart.  Do I 'understand' EVERYTHING? No, not even close.  But I'm ever learning and falling more and more in love with Orthodoxy (to use a cliche - not a perfect example but you get the idea) each day.  For me, the reading/research confirmed that gut feeling that I already had.  Gotta long way to go, but it's an awesome adventure. Smiley  Dunno if that helps or not, but that's my two cents... (and forgive me, I took some nyquil a while ago so if this is totally incoherent... that would be why. Smiley It sounds good in my head, but not so much on screen, LOL).

Peace and blessings to all.
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