Topic: Roman Catholicism - Do you believe our priests and sacraments are grace-filled?

[username!]

I cross myself too when passing a Roman church but I show my disagreement with them by crossing myself the byzantine way. I guess that makes it even.

So in theory you are saying you recognise that the communion in their tabernacle is communion.  Communion is God.  So by crossing yourself out of spite would that not be judging your brothers because you disagree with x y z of their beliefs?  Would it be more prudent not to cross yourself at all then?  Crossing yourself outside of church whether walking or in a car is reverence to the communion held in reserve in the tabernacle.  Do Orthodox Christians not consider partaking of Communion as the most outwardly sign of union?  For if we are upset with even ONE of our Orthodox brethren no matter where he may reside then we can not partake of the chalice that day as we see it as a common cup.  It is the same holy communion in Dallas as it is in Jerusalem.  So recognising that the RCC have the true eucharist in their tabernacle by signing yourself would follow the above?

[username!]

The OCA (which is Russian in practice) also receives priests by vesting.  I know a fantastic priest that was brought in this way. 
As far as grace and such I follow what the bishops teach.  They are the chief priest and are entrusted to "rightfully divide the Word of Truth." 

Was the priest originally Roman Catholic or Oriental?

He was and is European American and he was a minister in the RCC.

[Cyrillic]

So by crossing yourself out of spite would that not be judging your brothers because you disagree with x y z of their beliefs?

That one about doing it the byzantine way because I disagree was just a little joke. I do it the byzantine way, but not because I want to judge them or something but because that's the way I'm used to do it. Calm down.

[ZealousZeal]

Yeah, I never crossed myself in front of Protestant churches, either, and I'm certainly not about to start now. For one, even I wanted to, it's often hard to tell that the Protestant church (building) is a church. As we are neighbors, perhaps you'll find it funny that I was in the Nob Hill area recently (I am uncomfortable there, but I had to go to the bank and it happened to be close by while I was running my errands) and happened upon what I thought was a movie theater. Nope. Turned out to be some kind of Evangelical/Pentecostal (?) gathering place either made to look like a theater (complete with posters for their worship services), or occupying an old theater that they never bothered to remodel. Hey, one place is as good as any other, right? There's no holiness in the physical world according to popular Evangelical dualism, after all... Worst still, it seemed by the graphics and showiness to be specifically targeting young people and disaffected ex-something elsers...thank God I found Orthodoxy when I did, lest but by the grace of God there go I... <505-specific stuff that nobody else will get>

When we lived in ABQ, we went to a church that was in a strip mall... Just looked like a regular storefront, but was actually a church. Eventually they purchased a church building and moved out. This was up near Tramway though- not Nob Hill. But I am not surprised.

[username!]

So by crossing yourself out of spite would that not be judging your brothers because you disagree with x y z of their beliefs?

That one about doing it the byzantine way because I disagree was just a little joke. I do it the byzantine way, but not because I want to judge them or something but because that's the way I'm used to do it. Calm down.

I am calm I was being philosophical.

[Cyrillic]

So by crossing yourself out of spite would that not be judging your brothers because you disagree with x y z of their beliefs?

That one about doing it the byzantine way because I disagree was just a little joke. I do it the byzantine way, but not because I want to judge them or something but because that's the way I'm used to do it. Calm down.

I am calm I was being philosophical.

Oh, it sounded a little bit agressive to me. Sorry if he misunderstood it.

[BayStater123]

The OCA (which is Russian in practice) also receives priests by vesting.  I know a fantastic priest that was brought in this way. 
As far as grace and such I follow what the bishops teach.  They are the chief priest and are entrusted to "rightfully divide the Word of Truth." 

Was the priest originally Roman Catholic or Oriental?

He was and is European American and he was a minister in the RCC.

If the Orthodox expect me to respect them, then I expect you to respect me and my church. He was not a minister. He was and is a priest.

[username!]

The OCA (which is Russian in practice) also receives priests by vesting.  I know a fantastic priest that was brought in this way. 
As far as grace and such I follow what the bishops teach.  They are the chief priest and are entrusted to "rightfully divide the Word of Truth." 

Was the priest originally Roman Catholic or Oriental?

He was and is European American and he was a minister in the RCC.

If the Orthodox expect me to respect them, then I expect you to respect me and my church. He was not a minister. He was and is a priest.

Vicar, minister, reverend, etc... extraordinary minister of communion... think about it if that's what the RCC calls the helpers at mass that give out communion then the priest must be the ordinary minister.  Just using different words that mean the same thing.

[Papist]

delete for pointless and silly post. 

[William]

I mean, here I thought "we know where the Church is, not where it is not" meant exactly that. 

Yes, it means exactly that. It just happens to be an incorrect sentiment.

[William]

Ahhh, Tasbeha...a place to argue about Thanksgiving, pumpkins, and whether it's "evkhi" or "evshi". Oh, and Orthodoxy is in there somewhere, maybe.

Do you believe that the Roman Catholic Eucharist is the Body and Blood of Christ?

I waver between being ambivalent and agnostic about this, and do not wish to be more explicit than that. Mainly because it doesn't matter, since I am not in communion with Rome. For the sake of those who are, I hope so, just like how I hope that all my non-Orthodox friends and family who have passed on are shown the same mercy that I depend on in kind. I should like to see them all in heaven, if I am blessed to be received there, but my feelings and desires are nothing compared to the judgment and mercy of God. In the end, it is not my place, as a mere layman and very new in the faith and the Church, to make judgments on such things. That is where I feel that the RC has way overstepped its boundaries, after all. The mere existence of another church that has a eucharistic service does not mean that it is acceptable before God, but again that is God's judgment to make. It is enough that I follow the directives of my own priests (who are quite conservative, despite any appearance to the contrary that I may have mistakenly given earlier; you miss Coptic "hardliners", just ask abouna about the Tome of Leo) and church in not betraying the holy faith in the name of false ecumenism. So from where I'm sitting, the important thing is that I not partake with any other Church, not whether or not I can speculate about the nature of what they consider sacraments. That is a Roman activity/pastime, not befitting of Orthodox people. You know where Christ is, so you go there. If He bestows His grace and mercy upon others in whatever way He sees fit, hallelujah. Again, I hope He does, but I can't say for sure one way or another.

Well crossing oneself suggests their Eucharist is the true Eucharist, no ambivalence about it. That's why the practice exists, no? To honor the reserved Gifts.

No. Russians in the Volga region sometimes cross themselves when passsing mosques--becasue it was built for God, even if it's a false religion.

I'm gonna need a reference for this one, Beijingski.

[dzheremi]

I mean, here I thought "we know where the Church is, not where it is not" meant exactly that. 

Yes, it means exactly that. It just happens to be an incorrect sentiment.

It is not correct that you do not know where the Church isn't?

Ahh...that must explain all the declarative, dogmatic statements about the sacraments of non-Orthodox churches that you always hear from the Orthodox... 

[Peter J]

The OCA (which is Russian in practice) also receives priests by vesting.  I know a fantastic priest that was brought in this way.  
As far as grace and such I follow what the bishops teach.  They are the chief priest and are entrusted to "rightfully divide the Word of Truth."  

Was the priest originally Roman Catholic or Oriental?

He was and is European American and he was a minister in the RCC.

If the Orthodox expect me to respect them, then I expect you to respect me and my church. He was not a minister. He was and is a priest.

Hmmm ... did you ever tell a Catholic priest to his face "You're not a minister"? And if so, what was his reaction?

[Severian]

Ahhh, Tasbeha...a place to argue about Thanksgiving, pumpkins, and whether it's "evkhi" or "evshi". Oh, and Orthodoxy is in there somewhere, maybe.

Do you believe that the Roman Catholic Eucharist is the Body and Blood of Christ?

I waver between being ambivalent and agnostic about this, and do not wish to be more explicit than that. Mainly because it doesn't matter, since I am not in communion with Rome. For the sake of those who are, I hope so, just like how I hope that all my non-Orthodox friends and family who have passed on are shown the same mercy that I depend on in kind. I should like to see them all in heaven, if I am blessed to be received there, but my feelings and desires are nothing compared to the judgment and mercy of God. In the end, it is not my place, as a mere layman and very new in the faith and the Church, to make judgments on such things. That is where I feel that the RC has way overstepped its boundaries, after all. The mere existence of another church that has a eucharistic service does not mean that it is acceptable before God, but again that is God's judgment to make. It is enough that I follow the directives of my own priests (who are quite conservative, despite any appearance to the contrary that I may have mistakenly given earlier; you miss Coptic "hardliners", just ask abouna about the Tome of Leo) and church in not betraying the holy faith in the name of false ecumenism. So from where I'm sitting, the important thing is that I not partake with any other Church, not whether or not I can speculate about the nature of what they consider sacraments. That is a Roman activity/pastime, not befitting of Orthodox people. You know where Christ is, so you go there. If He bestows His grace and mercy upon others in whatever way He sees fit, hallelujah. Again, I hope He does, but I can't say for sure one way or another.

Well crossing oneself suggests their Eucharist is the true Eucharist, no ambivalence about it. That's why the practice exists, no? To honor the reserved Gifts.

No. Russians in the Volga region sometimes cross themselves when passsing mosques--becasue it was built for God, even if it's a false religion.

I'm gonna need a reference for this one, Beijingski.

If this is true, it is incredibly disturbing.

[Peter J]

Ahhh, Tasbeha...a place to argue about Thanksgiving, pumpkins, and whether it's "evkhi" or "evshi". Oh, and Orthodoxy is in there somewhere, maybe.

Do you believe that the Roman Catholic Eucharist is the Body and Blood of Christ?

I waver between being ambivalent and agnostic about this, and do not wish to be more explicit than that. Mainly because it doesn't matter, since I am not in communion with Rome. For the sake of those who are, I hope so, just like how I hope that all my non-Orthodox friends and family who have passed on are shown the same mercy that I depend on in kind. I should like to see them all in heaven, if I am blessed to be received there, but my feelings and desires are nothing compared to the judgment and mercy of God. In the end, it is not my place, as a mere layman and very new in the faith and the Church, to make judgments on such things. That is where I feel that the RC has way overstepped its boundaries, after all. The mere existence of another church that has a eucharistic service does not mean that it is acceptable before God, but again that is God's judgment to make. It is enough that I follow the directives of my own priests (who are quite conservative, despite any appearance to the contrary that I may have mistakenly given earlier; you miss Coptic "hardliners", just ask abouna about the Tome of Leo) and church in not betraying the holy faith in the name of false ecumenism. So from where I'm sitting, the important thing is that I not partake with any other Church, not whether or not I can speculate about the nature of what they consider sacraments. That is a Roman activity/pastime, not befitting of Orthodox people. You know where Christ is, so you go there. If He bestows His grace and mercy upon others in whatever way He sees fit, hallelujah. Again, I hope He does, but I can't say for sure one way or another.

Well crossing oneself suggests their Eucharist is the true Eucharist, no ambivalence about it. That's why the practice exists, no? To honor the reserved Gifts.

No. Russians in the Volga region sometimes cross themselves when passsing mosques--becasue it was built for God, even if it's a false religion.

Boy, that's a different perspective.  I usually ask myself things like "Should I cross myself when I pass a Christian church building with no Eucharist (e.g. Baptist)?"

[William]

I mean, here I thought "we know where the Church is, not where it is not" meant exactly that. 

Yes, it means exactly that. It just happens to be an incorrect sentiment.

It is not correct that you do not know where the Church isn't?

Ahh...that must explain all the declarative, dogmatic statements about the sacraments of non-Orthodox churches that you always hear from the Orthodox... 

I hear them all the time.

[dzheremi]

The world of the inquirer on the internet must be very different than the world of the baptized person, then. Funnily enough the subject of Roman Catholic sacraments has never come up in over a year of attending at a Coptic Orthodox Church. It's almost like we leave such things up to God and how He sees fit to deal with those outside of the Church, and instead focus on our own Church and its sacraments, which we do not doubt.

[Shanghaiski]

The OCA (which is Russian in practice) also receives priests by vesting.  I know a fantastic priest that was brought in this way. 
As far as grace and such I follow what the bishops teach.  They are the chief priest and are entrusted to "rightfully divide the Word of Truth." 

Was the priest originally Roman Catholic or Oriental?

He was and is European American and he was a minister in the RCC.

If the Orthodox expect me to respect them, then I expect you to respect me and my church. He was not a minister. He was and is a priest.

Dude, it's really the same thing. IIRC, St. Paul calls himself a minister of the Gospel.

[William]

You don't have to get offended and resort to insults just because you're wrong.

Perhaps you'd like to be the one to inform the many bishops and elders I've heard say this teaching that their internet inquiry has mislead them?

[Shanghaiski]

Ahhh, Tasbeha...a place to argue about Thanksgiving, pumpkins, and whether it's "evkhi" or "evshi". Oh, and Orthodoxy is in there somewhere, maybe.

Do you believe that the Roman Catholic Eucharist is the Body and Blood of Christ?

I waver between being ambivalent and agnostic about this, and do not wish to be more explicit than that. Mainly because it doesn't matter, since I am not in communion with Rome. For the sake of those who are, I hope so, just like how I hope that all my non-Orthodox friends and family who have passed on are shown the same mercy that I depend on in kind. I should like to see them all in heaven, if I am blessed to be received there, but my feelings and desires are nothing compared to the judgment and mercy of God. In the end, it is not my place, as a mere layman and very new in the faith and the Church, to make judgments on such things. That is where I feel that the RC has way overstepped its boundaries, after all. The mere existence of another church that has a eucharistic service does not mean that it is acceptable before God, but again that is God's judgment to make. It is enough that I follow the directives of my own priests (who are quite conservative, despite any appearance to the contrary that I may have mistakenly given earlier; you miss Coptic "hardliners", just ask abouna about the Tome of Leo) and church in not betraying the holy faith in the name of false ecumenism. So from where I'm sitting, the important thing is that I not partake with any other Church, not whether or not I can speculate about the nature of what they consider sacraments. That is a Roman activity/pastime, not befitting of Orthodox people. You know where Christ is, so you go there. If He bestows His grace and mercy upon others in whatever way He sees fit, hallelujah. Again, I hope He does, but I can't say for sure one way or another.

Well crossing oneself suggests their Eucharist is the true Eucharist, no ambivalence about it. That's why the practice exists, no? To honor the reserved Gifts.

No. Russians in the Volga region sometimes cross themselves when passsing mosques--becasue it was built for God, even if it's a false religion.

I'm gonna need a reference for this one, Beijingski.

Bejing? WTH?

Reference came from a book on Russian culture. Dont ask for the specific one. I've read a couple score in my studies, but I didn't make it up.

[Shanghaiski]

Ahhh, Tasbeha...a place to argue about Thanksgiving, pumpkins, and whether it's "evkhi" or "evshi". Oh, and Orthodoxy is in there somewhere, maybe.

Do you believe that the Roman Catholic Eucharist is the Body and Blood of Christ?

I waver between being ambivalent and agnostic about this, and do not wish to be more explicit than that. Mainly because it doesn't matter, since I am not in communion with Rome. For the sake of those who are, I hope so, just like how I hope that all my non-Orthodox friends and family who have passed on are shown the same mercy that I depend on in kind. I should like to see them all in heaven, if I am blessed to be received there, but my feelings and desires are nothing compared to the judgment and mercy of God. In the end, it is not my place, as a mere layman and very new in the faith and the Church, to make judgments on such things. That is where I feel that the RC has way overstepped its boundaries, after all. The mere existence of another church that has a eucharistic service does not mean that it is acceptable before God, but again that is God's judgment to make. It is enough that I follow the directives of my own priests (who are quite conservative, despite any appearance to the contrary that I may have mistakenly given earlier; you miss Coptic "hardliners", just ask abouna about the Tome of Leo) and church in not betraying the holy faith in the name of false ecumenism. So from where I'm sitting, the important thing is that I not partake with any other Church, not whether or not I can speculate about the nature of what they consider sacraments. That is a Roman activity/pastime, not befitting of Orthodox people. You know where Christ is, so you go there. If He bestows His grace and mercy upon others in whatever way He sees fit, hallelujah. Again, I hope He does, but I can't say for sure one way or another.

Well crossing oneself suggests their Eucharist is the true Eucharist, no ambivalence about it. That's why the practice exists, no? To honor the reserved Gifts.

No. Russians in the Volga region sometimes cross themselves when passsing mosques--becasue it was built for God, even if it's a false religion.

I'm gonna need a reference for this one, Beijingski.

If this is true, it is incredibly disturbing.

It wasn't a display of ecumenism. It was a recognition of the original purpose, the intention. The Mohammedans intended to build the mosque for God. Of course, they are not illumined and follow a false prophet. But remember one of the Desert Fathers who complimented the pagan priest on his devotion after his disciple ridiculed him for being an idolater? The abba's kindness and recognition of the good won the pagan priest over and he became a Christian and a monk. Same thing.

[Shanghaiski]

The world of the inquirer on the internet must be very different than the world of the baptized person, then. Funnily enough the subject of Roman Catholic sacraments has never come up in over a year of attending at a Coptic Orthodox Church. It's almost like we leave such things up to God and how He sees fit to deal with those outside of the Church, and instead focus on our own Church and its sacraments, which we do not doubt.

Indeed. Exactly this.

We have enough to do to teach and live Orthodoxy than to try and figure out whether a group of people who perform liturgies running the gamut from traditional to bizarre have sacramental grace. We have all we can do to wonder what happened to the folks who invented the inquisiton and why have they become soft.

[Peter J]

Ahhh, Tasbeha...a place to argue about Thanksgiving, pumpkins, and whether it's "evkhi" or "evshi". Oh, and Orthodoxy is in there somewhere, maybe.

Do you believe that the Roman Catholic Eucharist is the Body and Blood of Christ?

I waver between being ambivalent and agnostic about this, and do not wish to be more explicit than that. Mainly because it doesn't matter, since I am not in communion with Rome. For the sake of those who are, I hope so, just like how I hope that all my non-Orthodox friends and family who have passed on are shown the same mercy that I depend on in kind. I should like to see them all in heaven, if I am blessed to be received there, but my feelings and desires are nothing compared to the judgment and mercy of God. In the end, it is not my place, as a mere layman and very new in the faith and the Church, to make judgments on such things. That is where I feel that the RC has way overstepped its boundaries, after all. The mere existence of another church that has a eucharistic service does not mean that it is acceptable before God, but again that is God's judgment to make. It is enough that I follow the directives of my own priests (who are quite conservative, despite any appearance to the contrary that I may have mistakenly given earlier; you miss Coptic "hardliners", just ask abouna about the Tome of Leo) and church in not betraying the holy faith in the name of false ecumenism. So from where I'm sitting, the important thing is that I not partake with any other Church, not whether or not I can speculate about the nature of what they consider sacraments. That is a Roman activity/pastime, not befitting of Orthodox people. You know where Christ is, so you go there. If He bestows His grace and mercy upon others in whatever way He sees fit, hallelujah. Again, I hope He does, but I can't say for sure one way or another.

Well crossing oneself suggests their Eucharist is the true Eucharist, no ambivalence about it. That's why the practice exists, no? To honor the reserved Gifts.

No. Russians in the Volga region sometimes cross themselves when passsing mosques--becasue it was built for God, even if it's a false religion.

I'm gonna need a reference for this one, Beijingski.

If this is true, it is incredibly disturbing.

It wasn't a display of ecumenism. It was a recognition of the original purpose, the intention. The Mohammedans intended to build the mosque for God. Of course, they are not illumined and follow a false prophet. But remember one of the Desert Fathers who complimented the pagan priest on his devotion after his disciple ridiculed him for being an idolater? The abba's kindness and recognition of the good won the pagan priest over and he became a Christian and a monk. Same thing.

I understand about it being "a recognition of original purpose", but I still think it's a tad extreme. And if it's extreme for us Catholics, I imagine how your fellow Orthodox might react, especially those who pray "that the secularists and Protestants are kept at a distance [from Eastern Europe]" and the like.