OrthodoxChristianity.net
December 20, 2014, 02:00:39 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Poll
Question: Do you, as an Oriental or Eastern Orthodox Christian, believe the Roman Catholic priesthood and sacraments are grace filled?
Yes - 11 (45.8%)
No - 13 (54.2%)
Total Voters: 24

Pages: « 1 2 3 »  All   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Roman Catholicism - Do you believe our priests and sacraments are grace-filled?  (Read 4615 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Shanghaiski
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 7,975


Holy Trinity Church of Gergeti, Georgia


« Reply #45 on: September 30, 2012, 08:02:49 PM »

Quote
Apparently it does, because if I were an Orthodox Bishop and I believed that Roman Catholic sacraments are invalid, I would definitely re-administer the sacrament. But Roman Catholic sacraments aren't even sacraments, right?

If you were an Orthodox bishop, you'd probably be more concerned with making sure that people coming into your church can receive the sacraments in which there is no question of validity (that is to say, your own church's sacraments) than in deciding what to think about the sacraments of a church that they will no longer be a part of. As was explained to me shortly before my reception into the Coptic Orthodox Church, it is not necessarily because we have any particular belief about Catholic sacraments that you will be baptized when you come into the Orthodox Church, but rather because we have a very certain belief in our own sacraments. Or, as the Byzantines are famous for saying, "We know where the Church is, not where it is not".

If the Orthodox are unsure about the validity of Catholic sacraments, then why does the OCA not re-ordain Roman Catholic priest converts to Orthodoxy? Makes no sense to me. Instead, I feel like I belong to the one, holy, catholic, and apostolic church where there is consensus among the members, including the priests and bishops. It would be helpful if the Patriarchate of Constantinople had more authority over the autonomous Orthodox patriarchates. Orthodoxy will never make any ecumenical progress without one voice leading the way.

Vesting is not a standard practice. It is a minority practice.

Is vesting still the practice in Russia today?

To my knowledge, it is not as common as it was. This is because Orthodox have become more familiar with the many things separating Roman Catholicism from the truth and with new innovations made since the 16th century. Anyway, reception of RCs by vesting was itself an odd practice of post-Petrine Russia, same with believing RCs have sacramental grace. You won't find such sentiments or practices in Russia and Ukraine in earlier centuries.

Also, whether it's vesting or receiving RCs by chrismation or confession--this is not a recognition of grace, but that the sacramental form is/was there, something which could theoretically be filled with grace. (Not sure when this idea started.) Now that RCs no longer practice triple immersion in baptism, the underpinnings of this economia are weakened.
Logged

Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.
Severian
God save Egypt, Syria, Lebanon & Iraq
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Miaphysite Orthodoxy
Jurisdiction: The Church of Alexandria
Posts: 5,048


Saint Severus of Antioch - the Eloquent Mouth

Partisangirl
WWW
« Reply #46 on: September 30, 2012, 09:22:57 PM »

Fwiw, whenever I pass an RC parish I cross myself out of veneration for there Holy Altar. I personally think there is at least some grace in RCism which is not found in Protestantism.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2012, 09:23:12 PM by Severian » Logged

"These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world." -Jesus Christ

I am currently not an active poster on the forum. Please forgive any offense I might have caused in the past. Thank you.
BayStater123
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Faith: Latin Church
Posts: 52


« Reply #47 on: September 30, 2012, 09:37:33 PM »

Fwiw, whenever I pass an RC parish I cross myself out of veneration for there Holy Altar. I personally think there is at least some grace in RCism which is not found in Protestantism.


That is a very nice gesture. Thank you for showing respect toward our parishes. I've heard this come from an Orthodox person more than once, but I think he too was an Oriental not Eastern. I cross myself whenever I pass an Oriental Orthodox, Eastern Orthodox, Assyrian, Old Catholic, or Roman Catholic Church because I believe that they all have valid sacraments and priesthood.

I have very warm feelings toward a particular Armenian Orthodox priest. My 93 year old grandmother was on her death bed and our parish priest was stuck in traffic. The Armenian priest was visiting one of his parishioners and some how found out about our situation (I think the nurse told him). He immediately came to my grandmother's bed and anointed her with holy oil in the name of the Lord.
Logged
Peter J
Formerly PJ
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Melkite
Posts: 6,174



« Reply #48 on: September 30, 2012, 09:51:32 PM »

Hi all, I'm a bit of a late-comer to this discussion.

I haven't received a definitive answer from the Orthodox on this question.

I'm curious, are you surprised that you haven't, as you say, received a definitive answer? And if so, why? I ask because I sometimes get the impression that a lot of posters feel they have a kind of unlimited right to answers to any questions they can pose.
Logged

- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
BayStater123
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Faith: Latin Church
Posts: 52


« Reply #49 on: September 30, 2012, 09:55:39 PM »

Hi all, I'm a bit of a late-comer to this discussion.

I haven't received a definitive answer from the Orthodox on this question.

I'm curious, are you surprised that you haven't, as you say, received a definitive answer? And if so, why? I ask because I sometimes get the impression that a lot of posters feel they have a kind of unlimited right to answers to any questions they can pose.


I'm surprised because i've heard many times that there is a consensus among the Orthodoxy in matters of faith and doctrine. It just doesn't seem true. I seem to receive multiple different answers to any question I ask about Orthodoxy's relationship with other Christians.
Logged
dzheremi
No longer posting here.
Warned
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic
Posts: 4,383


« Reply #50 on: September 30, 2012, 09:58:37 PM »

I also cross myself when I pass Catholic churches. I thought most people did that. For me, I figure this is another "Catholic" thing I don't have to give up to be Orthodox, as there's nothing inherently wrong with it. If we didn't believe that there was any grace whatsoever in Catholicism, our priest wouldn't have recommended that we visit the Loretto Chapel in Santa Fe to see its "miracle" staircase, and we wouldn't have regular Catholic visitors who are accepted and treated like members of the community in every way but receiving the sacraments. This is a different question, at least in my mind, from saying categorically that Catholic sacraments (or any non-Orthodox sacraments) "have grace" or not. To me that's sort of a hypothetical question, as I can't receive them anyway. It'd be like asking me what I think about your breakfast. It's kind of irrelevant, since I'm not the one eating it.
Logged

Shanghaiski
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 7,975


Holy Trinity Church of Gergeti, Georgia


« Reply #51 on: September 30, 2012, 09:59:55 PM »

Hi all, I'm a bit of a late-comer to this discussion.

I haven't received a definitive answer from the Orthodox on this question.

I'm curious, are you surprised that you haven't, as you say, received a definitive answer? And if so, why? I ask because I sometimes get the impression that a lot of posters feel they have a kind of unlimited right to answers to any questions they can pose.


I'm surprised because i've heard many times that there is a consensus among the Orthodoxy in matters of faith and doctrine. It just doesn't seem true. I seem to receive multiple different answers to any question I ask about Orthodoxy's relationship with other Christians.

Our relationship to other Christians is not a matter of dogma. If you read Church history carefully, you will see that even before the schism, there was no universally accepted position on the reception of schismatics and heretics. However, there were canons regarding not communing such.
Logged

Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.
age234
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antioch
Posts: 555


« Reply #52 on: September 30, 2012, 10:02:07 PM »

Hi all, I'm a bit of a late-comer to this discussion.

I haven't received a definitive answer from the Orthodox on this question.

I'm curious, are you surprised that you haven't, as you say, received a definitive answer? And if so, why? I ask because I sometimes get the impression that a lot of posters feel they have a kind of unlimited right to answers to any questions they can pose.


I'm surprised because i've heard many times that there is a consensus among the Orthodoxy in matters of faith and doctrine. It just doesn't seem true. I seem to receive multiple different answers to any question I ask about Orthodoxy's relationship with other Christians.

We all agree our churches are not in communion. That's the clincher, really. The status of churches not in communion with us is not really our business to define, since we don't know. Thus it remains in the realm of opinion. There has been no pressing need to define it beyond that. It's not a matter that rises to the level of dogma.
Logged
age234
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antioch
Posts: 555


« Reply #53 on: September 30, 2012, 10:07:09 PM »

There is not a universally agreed on definitive answer to this question. To be honest, I'm afraid of the practical implications of refusing intercommunion with another church you believe to have Christ in the sacraments.

This is not a statement of whether or not I believe other churches not in communion with my own have Christ present in their sacraments, but I am glad it's not my job to give definitive answers. FWIW, the church I've been attending the last few weeks (Antiochian) does officially (to the best of my knowledge) have an agreement  with one of the OO (Syraic Orthodox) jurisdictions to allow intercommunion (of laypersons) in certain situations.

I think its ridiculous that your Antiochian church has an agreement with one of the OO jurisdictions, aka the Miaphysites. The RCC and EOC share core beliefs and a common hsitory and we even allow members of your church to commune in ours. There should definitely be an intercommunion agreement at least on the local level between the RCC and EOC.

According to my priest, the OO's are allowed to convert to EO in our jurisdiction by confession of faith and then commune. BUT, this is a conversion. If an OO communes in an Antiochian parish it is with the understanding that they have converted and may not return to the OO church. So it's not really intercommunion. I don't know how OO's see it, but it's not intercommunion from our end.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2012, 10:13:21 PM by age234 » Logged
Peter J
Formerly PJ
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Melkite
Posts: 6,174



« Reply #54 on: September 30, 2012, 10:07:48 PM »

Hi all, I'm a bit of a late-comer to this discussion.

I haven't received a definitive answer from the Orthodox on this question.

I'm curious, are you surprised that you haven't, as you say, received a definitive answer? And if so, why? I ask because I sometimes get the impression that a lot of posters feel they have a kind of unlimited right to answers to any questions they can pose.


I'm surprised because i've heard many times that there is a consensus among the Orthodoxy in matters of faith and doctrine. It just doesn't seem true. I seem to receive multiple different answers to any question I ask about Orthodoxy's relationship with other Christians.

Well, I think the Orthodox are in agreement that the faith handed down to the apostles didn't contain predictions about how many Christians would have valid sacraments in the future.
Logged

- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
Basil 320
Site Supporter
Archon
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America, Holy Metropolis of Pittsburgh
Posts: 3,136



« Reply #55 on: September 30, 2012, 10:28:59 PM »

There is full doctrinal unity in the Eastern Orthodox Christian Church, no question.

There is quite a bit of dissension in the Orthodox Church as to the nature of ecumenical relations between Orthodoxy and Catholicism, and Orthodoxy and heterodox relations in general.  Even the activities that have become routine since the era of Christian ecumenical contact, the last half of the 20th century, are controversial within each of the Holy Orthodox Churches.  Today's largest divisions or separations within the Holy Churches, i.e. the Old Calendar or traditionalist separations, are largely attributable to disagreement over ecumenical affairs.  The traditionalists consider Roman Catholics heretics, while the Ecumenical Patriarch considers Orthodoxy and Catholicism "sister churches," the "two lungs" of Christianity.  As I mentioned earlier, the matter of ecumenical relations is a topic on the agenda of the forthcoming Holy and Great Synod (Council) of the Orthodox Church; and the preconciliar commission meetings are efforts to forge some consensus about this matter.

But don't confuse practices connected with ecumenical relations, with doctrine, theology and the teachings of the church where there is complete accord in Holy Orthodoxy.
Logged

"...Strengthen the Orthodox Community..."
Shant
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Faith: Armenian Apostolic (Orthodox)
Jurisdiction: Eastern Prelacy (U.S.)
Posts: 22


« Reply #56 on: September 30, 2012, 10:56:13 PM »

That is a very nice gesture. Thank you for showing respect toward our parishes. I've heard this come from an Orthodox person more than once, but I think he too was an Oriental not Eastern. I cross myself whenever I pass an Oriental Orthodox, Eastern Orthodox, Assyrian, Old Catholic, or Roman Catholic Church because I believe that they all have valid sacraments and priesthood.

I have very warm feelings toward a particular Armenian Orthodox priest. My 93 year old grandmother was on her death bed and our parish priest was stuck in traffic. The Armenian priest was visiting one of his parishioners and some how found out about our situation (I think the nurse told him). He immediately came to my grandmother's bed and anointed her with holy oil in the name of the Lord.

For a number of historical reasons, the Armenian church has generally taken a much more open view of the RC church and its sacraments. While concelebration is still not permitted, informal intercommunion among the laity, both here as well as in Armenia and the Middle East, is pretty much permitted. There is no question, from the POV of the Armenian church, that RC ordinations are valid and hence their sacraments are grace-filled. Note that this is definitely very much a minority position among the Orthodox churches, including among the OO churches.
Logged
OrthoNoob
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 1,074



« Reply #57 on: September 30, 2012, 11:03:45 PM »

OK, here's what bugs me:

The Russian Church, for example, receives RC priests by vesting. This is done (presumably; let us assume so for the sake of the argument) due to the recognition of RC ordinations as conferring genuine sacramental grace; it is presumably the position of the Russian Church that RC priests are in fact priests.

Now, if the Greeks hold that RC ordinations are not valid, doesn't it follow that the Greeks have to also hold that any RC priest who converts to Orthodoxy in the Russian Church and continues to serve as a priest in that Church is in fact not a priest? And if, on the Greek view, Russian Orthodox priests may not be actual priests, and thus many Russian Orthodox sacraments may be utterly void, why are the Greeks still in full communion with the Russians?
Logged

http://avengingredhand.wordpress.com -- My blog

'These words I, Leo, have set down for love and as a safeguard of the Orthodox Faith'
BayStater123
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Faith: Latin Church
Posts: 52


« Reply #58 on: September 30, 2012, 11:08:41 PM »

OK, here's what bugs me:

The Russian Church, for example, receives RC priests by vesting. This is done (presumably; let us assume so for the sake of the argument) due to the recognition of RC ordinations as conferring genuine sacramental grace; it is presumably the position of the Russian Church that RC priests are in fact priests.

Now, if the Greeks hold that RC ordinations are not valid, doesn't it follow that the Greeks have to also hold that any RC priest who converts to Orthodoxy in the Russian Church and continues to serve as a priest in that Church is in fact not a priest? And if, on the Greek view, Russian Orthodox priests may not be actual priests, and thus many Russian Orthodox sacraments may be utterly void, why are the Greeks still in full communion with the Russians?

Great question...one i'd like to be answered too
Logged
William
Muted
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Posts: 4,354


« Reply #59 on: October 01, 2012, 12:06:20 AM »

I also cross myself when I pass Catholic churches. I thought most people did that. For me, I figure this is another "Catholic" thing I don't have to give up to be Orthodox, as there's nothing inherently wrong with it. If we didn't believe that there was any grace whatsoever in Catholicism, our priest wouldn't have recommended that we visit the Loretto Chapel in Santa Fe to see its "miracle" staircase, and we wouldn't have regular Catholic visitors who are accepted and treated like members of the community in every way but receiving the sacraments. This is a different question, at least in my mind, from saying categorically that Catholic sacraments (or any non-Orthodox sacraments) "have grace" or not. To me that's sort of a hypothetical question, as I can't receive them anyway. It'd be like asking me what I think about your breakfast. It's kind of irrelevant, since I'm not the one eating it.

All of this is extremely surprising for me.
Logged

Apart from moral conduct, all that man thinks himself able to do in order to become acceptable to God is mere superstition and religious folly. - Immanuel Kant
BayStater123
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Faith: Latin Church
Posts: 52


« Reply #60 on: October 01, 2012, 12:16:29 AM »

I also cross myself when I pass Catholic churches. I thought most people did that. For me, I figure this is another "Catholic" thing I don't have to give up to be Orthodox, as there's nothing inherently wrong with it. If we didn't believe that there was any grace whatsoever in Catholicism, our priest wouldn't have recommended that we visit the Loretto Chapel in Santa Fe to see its "miracle" staircase, and we wouldn't have regular Catholic visitors who are accepted and treated like members of the community in every way but receiving the sacraments. This is a different question, at least in my mind, from saying categorically that Catholic sacraments (or any non-Orthodox sacraments) "have grace" or not. To me that's sort of a hypothetical question, as I can't receive them anyway. It'd be like asking me what I think about your breakfast. It's kind of irrelevant, since I'm not the one eating it.

All of this is extremely surprising for me.

When you say all do you mean everything that has been discussed succeeding the original post or some of the posters' statement about crossing themselves as they pass RC parishes?
Logged
Cavaradossi
法網恢恢,疏而不漏
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Chalcedonian Automaton Serial No. 5Aj4bx9
Jurisdiction: Chalcedonian Automaton Factory 5
Posts: 1,637



« Reply #61 on: October 01, 2012, 12:16:49 AM »

OK, here's what bugs me:

The Russian Church, for example, receives RC priests by vesting. This is done (presumably; let us assume so for the sake of the argument) due to the recognition of RC ordinations as conferring genuine sacramental grace; it is presumably the position of the Russian Church that RC priests are in fact priests.

Now, if the Greeks hold that RC ordinations are not valid, doesn't it follow that the Greeks have to also hold that any RC priest who converts to Orthodoxy in the Russian Church and continues to serve as a priest in that Church is in fact not a priest? And if, on the Greek view, Russian Orthodox priests may not be actual priests, and thus many Russian Orthodox sacraments may be utterly void, why are the Greeks still in full communion with the Russians?

Sacramental grace is not a mechanical thing. You cannot think that because the Russian Orthodox Church vests Roman Catholic priests that therefore they recognize sacramental grace as some sort of material possession which is 'possessed' by the Roman Catholics (The Orthodox are all in agreement that only the Church properly possesses sacramental grace: the disagreement is over what degree the heterodox are able to participate in the sacramental grace possessed by the Church). Historically, the method for receiving Roman Catholics into Holy Orthodoxy was by confession. Sometime in maybe the 18th century, the Greeks changed their practice to receiving Catholics by baptism, while the Russians retained the practice of receiving Catholics by confession (Even ROCOR, when it was deliberating over whether Roman Catholics should be rebaptized, did so with the recognition that the Russian practice was to receive Catholics by confession, but the argument was made that the Roman faith had changed so much during the 19th century, that it was no longer prudent to receive Roman Catholics by confession). The question of how Roman Catholics should be received has no universal answer yet, just like how the question of how Eunomians, Arians, Sabellians, etc., were to be received before the First Council of Constantinople had no definitive and universal answer. It really isn't anything to be worried about.
Logged

Be comforted, and have faith, O Israel, for your God is infinitely simple and one, composed of no parts.
dzheremi
No longer posting here.
Warned
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic
Posts: 4,383


« Reply #62 on: October 01, 2012, 12:19:48 AM »

I also cross myself when I pass Catholic churches. I thought most people did that. For me, I figure this is another "Catholic" thing I don't have to give up to be Orthodox, as there's nothing inherently wrong with it. If we didn't believe that there was any grace whatsoever in Catholicism, our priest wouldn't have recommended that we visit the Loretto Chapel in Santa Fe to see its "miracle" staircase, and we wouldn't have regular Catholic visitors who are accepted and treated like members of the community in every way but receiving the sacraments. This is a different question, at least in my mind, from saying categorically that Catholic sacraments (or any non-Orthodox sacraments) "have grace" or not. To me that's sort of a hypothetical question, as I can't receive them anyway. It'd be like asking me what I think about your breakfast. It's kind of irrelevant, since I'm not the one eating it.

All of this is extremely surprising for me.

Why?
Logged

William
Muted
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Posts: 4,354


« Reply #63 on: October 01, 2012, 12:30:37 AM »

I also cross myself when I pass Catholic churches. I thought most people did that. For me, I figure this is another "Catholic" thing I don't have to give up to be Orthodox, as there's nothing inherently wrong with it. If we didn't believe that there was any grace whatsoever in Catholicism, our priest wouldn't have recommended that we visit the Loretto Chapel in Santa Fe to see its "miracle" staircase, and we wouldn't have regular Catholic visitors who are accepted and treated like members of the community in every way but receiving the sacraments. This is a different question, at least in my mind, from saying categorically that Catholic sacraments (or any non-Orthodox sacraments) "have grace" or not. To me that's sort of a hypothetical question, as I can't receive them anyway. It'd be like asking me what I think about your breakfast. It's kind of irrelevant, since I'm not the one eating it.

All of this is extremely surprising for me.

Why?

I miss the days when Copts were hardliners.
Logged

Apart from moral conduct, all that man thinks himself able to do in order to become acceptable to God is mere superstition and religious folly. - Immanuel Kant
OrthoNoob
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 1,074



« Reply #64 on: October 01, 2012, 12:32:18 AM »

OK, here's what bugs me:

The Russian Church, for example, receives RC priests by vesting. This is done (presumably; let us assume so for the sake of the argument) due to the recognition of RC ordinations as conferring genuine sacramental grace; it is presumably the position of the Russian Church that RC priests are in fact priests.

Now, if the Greeks hold that RC ordinations are not valid, doesn't it follow that the Greeks have to also hold that any RC priest who converts to Orthodoxy in the Russian Church and continues to serve as a priest in that Church is in fact not a priest? And if, on the Greek view, Russian Orthodox priests may not be actual priests, and thus many Russian Orthodox sacraments may be utterly void, why are the Greeks still in full communion with the Russians?

Sacramental grace is not a mechanical thing. You cannot think that because the Russian Orthodox Church vests Roman Catholic priests that therefore they recognize sacramental grace as some sort of material possession which is 'possessed' by the Roman Catholics (The Orthodox are all in agreement that only the Church properly possesses sacramental grace: the disagreement is over what degree the heterodox are able to participate in the sacramental grace possessed by the Church). Historically, the method for receiving Roman Catholics into Holy Orthodoxy was by confession. Sometime in maybe the 18th century, the Greeks changed their practice to receiving Catholics by baptism, while the Russians retained the practice of receiving Catholics by confession (Even ROCOR, when it was deliberating over whether Roman Catholics should be rebaptized, did so with the recognition that the Russian practice was to receive Catholics by confession, but the argument was made that the Roman faith had changed so much during the 19th century, that it was no longer prudent to receive Roman Catholics by confession). The question of how Roman Catholics should be received has no universal answer yet, just like how the question of how Eunomians, Arians, Sabellians, etc., were to be received before the First Council of Constantinople had no definitive and universal answer. It really isn't anything to be worried about.

So...

1. The Roman Catholic Church performs what it calls "The Rite of Ordination," but the ordinand does not actually become a priest.
2. The Catholic priest converts to Orthodoxy in the Russian Church.
3. The Russian Church vests him.
4. Now he's a priest.

Is that about right?

If that's the case, he became a priest without being ordained by a bishop. Am I to believe a man can become a priest without undergoing the Rite of Ordination at the hands of a bishop?
Logged

http://avengingredhand.wordpress.com -- My blog

'These words I, Leo, have set down for love and as a safeguard of the Orthodox Faith'
Cavaradossi
法網恢恢,疏而不漏
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Chalcedonian Automaton Serial No. 5Aj4bx9
Jurisdiction: Chalcedonian Automaton Factory 5
Posts: 1,637



« Reply #65 on: October 01, 2012, 12:48:31 AM »

OK, here's what bugs me:

The Russian Church, for example, receives RC priests by vesting. This is done (presumably; let us assume so for the sake of the argument) due to the recognition of RC ordinations as conferring genuine sacramental grace; it is presumably the position of the Russian Church that RC priests are in fact priests.

Now, if the Greeks hold that RC ordinations are not valid, doesn't it follow that the Greeks have to also hold that any RC priest who converts to Orthodoxy in the Russian Church and continues to serve as a priest in that Church is in fact not a priest? And if, on the Greek view, Russian Orthodox priests may not be actual priests, and thus many Russian Orthodox sacraments may be utterly void, why are the Greeks still in full communion with the Russians?

Sacramental grace is not a mechanical thing. You cannot think that because the Russian Orthodox Church vests Roman Catholic priests that therefore they recognize sacramental grace as some sort of material possession which is 'possessed' by the Roman Catholics (The Orthodox are all in agreement that only the Church properly possesses sacramental grace: the disagreement is over what degree the heterodox are able to participate in the sacramental grace possessed by the Church). Historically, the method for receiving Roman Catholics into Holy Orthodoxy was by confession. Sometime in maybe the 18th century, the Greeks changed their practice to receiving Catholics by baptism, while the Russians retained the practice of receiving Catholics by confession (Even ROCOR, when it was deliberating over whether Roman Catholics should be rebaptized, did so with the recognition that the Russian practice was to receive Catholics by confession, but the argument was made that the Roman faith had changed so much during the 19th century, that it was no longer prudent to receive Roman Catholics by confession). The question of how Roman Catholics should be received has no universal answer yet, just like how the question of how Eunomians, Arians, Sabellians, etc., were to be received before the First Council of Constantinople had no definitive and universal answer. It really isn't anything to be worried about.

So...

1. The Roman Catholic Church performs what it calls "The Rite of Ordination," but the ordinand does not actually become a priest.
2. The Catholic priest converts to Orthodoxy in the Russian Church.
3. The Russian Church vests him.
4. Now he's a priest.

Is that about right?

If that's the case, he became a priest without being ordained by a bishop. Am I to believe a man can become a priest without undergoing the Rite of Ordination at the hands of a bishop?

No, that is not correct. He received an ordination, and it is recognized by the Russian Orthodox Church because the Russian Orthodox Church out of economy does not declare his ordination to be ineffectual (even though it retains the canonical prerogative to do so). This is the same as any sort of canonically irregular ordination: it is presumed to be effective unless the Church uses its canonical prerogative to declare otherwise (that is to say, the canons are not self-effecting). The Greeks (that is, those in Greece, not the ones in America) have taken this canonical prerogative to completely cut off the Roman Catholic Church, rebaptizing converts (meaning the Roman Church, as far as the Greeks are concerned, is so foreign to the Church that it cannot participate at all in the grace of the Church). The Russians have not. Eventually, this discrepancy in practice will be settled universally, as were, in the past, the discrepancies between local churches over how Arians, Eunomians, Sabellians and other heretical/schismatic groups should be received.
Logged

Be comforted, and have faith, O Israel, for your God is infinitely simple and one, composed of no parts.
dzheremi
No longer posting here.
Warned
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic
Posts: 4,383


« Reply #66 on: October 01, 2012, 12:57:29 AM »

I also cross myself when I pass Catholic churches. I thought most people did that. For me, I figure this is another "Catholic" thing I don't have to give up to be Orthodox, as there's nothing inherently wrong with it. If we didn't believe that there was any grace whatsoever in Catholicism, our priest wouldn't have recommended that we visit the Loretto Chapel in Santa Fe to see its "miracle" staircase, and we wouldn't have regular Catholic visitors who are accepted and treated like members of the community in every way but receiving the sacraments. This is a different question, at least in my mind, from saying categorically that Catholic sacraments (or any non-Orthodox sacraments) "have grace" or not. To me that's sort of a hypothetical question, as I can't receive them anyway. It'd be like asking me what I think about your breakfast. It's kind of irrelevant, since I'm not the one eating it.

All of this is extremely surprising for me.

Why?

I miss the days when Copts were hardliners.

We still are. Don't you remember Met. Bishoy offending everybody by declaring that Catholics and Protestants won't go to heaven? Cheesy (laughing sardonically because, whether it's true or not, I can't imagine being happy about it.)

But also a lot of Copts, particularly in the diaspora, have gone through Catholic schools due to the lack of suitable Orthodox ones, so that might be part of the less hardline attitude among the new generation. For myself, I used to actually be Catholic, so I don't feel like I need to tow any sort of "party line" when it comes to things that are not dogmatic in the first place, like whether or not a person crosses himself when passing a Catholic Church. That's part of my heritage, which is how I ended up in the Orthodox Church in the first place, so I don't feel like I should shy away from it.

In some places, ~100% of the Coptic Orthodox were Catholics, like I was; thank God that our priests and bishops are not so hardline as to not find them acceptable. We are only trying to sow the seeds of a similarly integrated Orthodox Church here in our little corner of very Roman Catholic America. Smiley
Logged

William
Muted
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Posts: 4,354


« Reply #67 on: October 01, 2012, 01:04:38 AM »

I also cross myself when I pass Catholic churches. I thought most people did that. For me, I figure this is another "Catholic" thing I don't have to give up to be Orthodox, as there's nothing inherently wrong with it. If we didn't believe that there was any grace whatsoever in Catholicism, our priest wouldn't have recommended that we visit the Loretto Chapel in Santa Fe to see its "miracle" staircase, and we wouldn't have regular Catholic visitors who are accepted and treated like members of the community in every way but receiving the sacraments. This is a different question, at least in my mind, from saying categorically that Catholic sacraments (or any non-Orthodox sacraments) "have grace" or not. To me that's sort of a hypothetical question, as I can't receive them anyway. It'd be like asking me what I think about your breakfast. It's kind of irrelevant, since I'm not the one eating it.

All of this is extremely surprising for me.

Why?

I miss the days when Copts were hardliners.

We still are. Don't you remember Met. Bishoy offending everybody by declaring that Catholics and Protestants won't go to heaven? Cheesy (laughing sardonically because, whether it's true or not, I can't imagine being happy about it.)

But also a lot of Copts, particularly in the diaspora, have gone through Catholic schools due to the lack of suitable Orthodox ones, so that might be part of the less hardline attitude among the new generation. For myself, I used to actually be Catholic, so I don't feel like I need to tow any sort of "party line" when it comes to things that are not dogmatic in the first place, like whether or not a person crosses himself when passing a Catholic Church. That's part of my heritage, which is how I ended up in the Orthodox Church in the first place, so I don't feel like I should shy away from it.

In some places, ~100% of the Coptic Orthodox were Catholics, like I was; thank God that our priests and bishops are not so hardline as to not find them acceptable. We are only trying to sow the seeds of a similarly integrated Orthodox Church here in our little corner of very Roman Catholic America. Smiley

Do you believe that the Roman Catholic Eucharist is the Body and Blood of Christ?
Logged

Apart from moral conduct, all that man thinks himself able to do in order to become acceptable to God is mere superstition and religious folly. - Immanuel Kant
Severian
God save Egypt, Syria, Lebanon & Iraq
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Miaphysite Orthodoxy
Jurisdiction: The Church of Alexandria
Posts: 5,048


Saint Severus of Antioch - the Eloquent Mouth

Partisangirl
WWW
« Reply #68 on: October 01, 2012, 01:23:26 AM »

I miss the days when Copts were hardliners.
Well, you still have me and Stavro and the guys from Tasbeha. Wink Tongue
« Last Edit: October 01, 2012, 01:24:31 AM by Severian » Logged

"These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world." -Jesus Christ

I am currently not an active poster on the forum. Please forgive any offense I might have caused in the past. Thank you.
William
Muted
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Posts: 4,354


« Reply #69 on: October 01, 2012, 01:37:36 AM »

I miss the days when Copts were hardliners.
Well, you still have me and Stavro and the guys from Tasbeha. Wink Tongue

Maybe I just missed all the fun, but Tasbeha seems even more liberal/softliner than OC.net judging by their "ecumenism" thread in the Faith Issues section.
Logged

Apart from moral conduct, all that man thinks himself able to do in order to become acceptable to God is mere superstition and religious folly. - Immanuel Kant
dzheremi
No longer posting here.
Warned
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic
Posts: 4,383


« Reply #70 on: October 01, 2012, 01:45:11 AM »

Ahhh, Tasbeha...a place to argue about Thanksgiving, pumpkins, and whether it's "evkhi" or "evshi". Oh, and Orthodoxy is in there somewhere, maybe. Tongue

Quote
Do you believe that the Roman Catholic Eucharist is the Body and Blood of Christ?

I waver between being ambivalent and agnostic about this, and do not wish to be more explicit than that. Mainly because it doesn't matter, since I am not in communion with Rome. For the sake of those who are, I hope so, just like how I hope that all my non-Orthodox friends and family who have passed on are shown the same mercy that I depend on in kind. I should like to see them all in heaven, if I am blessed to be received there, but my feelings and desires are nothing compared to the judgment and mercy of God. In the end, it is not my place, as a mere layman and very new in the faith and the Church, to make judgments on such things. That is where I feel that the RC has way overstepped its boundaries, after all. The mere existence of another church that has a eucharistic service does not mean that it is acceptable before God, but again that is God's judgment to make. It is enough that I follow the directives of my own priests (who are quite conservative, despite any appearance to the contrary that I may have mistakenly given earlier; you miss Coptic "hardliners", just ask abouna about the Tome of Leo) and church in not betraying the holy faith in the name of false ecumenism. So from where I'm sitting, the important thing is that I not partake with any other Church, not whether or not I can speculate about the nature of what they consider sacraments. That is a Roman activity/pastime, not befitting of Orthodox people. You know where Christ is, so you go there. If He bestows His grace and mercy upon others in whatever way He sees fit, hallelujah. Again, I hope He does, but I can't say for sure one way or another.
Logged

Severian
God save Egypt, Syria, Lebanon & Iraq
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Miaphysite Orthodoxy
Jurisdiction: The Church of Alexandria
Posts: 5,048


Saint Severus of Antioch - the Eloquent Mouth

Partisangirl
WWW
« Reply #71 on: October 01, 2012, 01:52:55 AM »

I miss the days when Copts were hardliners.
Well, you still have me and Stavro and the guys from Tasbeha. Wink Tongue

Maybe I just missed all the fun, but Tasbeha seems even more liberal/softliner than OC.net judging by their "ecumenism" thread in the Faith Issues section.
I must investigate at once!

Anyway, when I mentioned Tasbeha, I meant people like imikhail, ShereneMaria, Stavro, etc.
Logged

"These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world." -Jesus Christ

I am currently not an active poster on the forum. Please forgive any offense I might have caused in the past. Thank you.
William
Muted
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Posts: 4,354


« Reply #72 on: October 01, 2012, 02:10:43 AM »

Ahhh, Tasbeha...a place to argue about Thanksgiving, pumpkins, and whether it's "evkhi" or "evshi". Oh, and Orthodoxy is in there somewhere, maybe. Tongue

Quote
Do you believe that the Roman Catholic Eucharist is the Body and Blood of Christ?

I waver between being ambivalent and agnostic about this, and do not wish to be more explicit than that. Mainly because it doesn't matter, since I am not in communion with Rome. For the sake of those who are, I hope so, just like how I hope that all my non-Orthodox friends and family who have passed on are shown the same mercy that I depend on in kind. I should like to see them all in heaven, if I am blessed to be received there, but my feelings and desires are nothing compared to the judgment and mercy of God. In the end, it is not my place, as a mere layman and very new in the faith and the Church, to make judgments on such things. That is where I feel that the RC has way overstepped its boundaries, after all. The mere existence of another church that has a eucharistic service does not mean that it is acceptable before God, but again that is God's judgment to make. It is enough that I follow the directives of my own priests (who are quite conservative, despite any appearance to the contrary that I may have mistakenly given earlier; you miss Coptic "hardliners", just ask abouna about the Tome of Leo) and church in not betraying the holy faith in the name of false ecumenism. So from where I'm sitting, the important thing is that I not partake with any other Church, not whether or not I can speculate about the nature of what they consider sacraments. That is a Roman activity/pastime, not befitting of Orthodox people. You know where Christ is, so you go there. If He bestows His grace and mercy upon others in whatever way He sees fit, hallelujah. Again, I hope He does, but I can't say for sure one way or another.


Well crossing oneself suggests their Eucharist is the true Eucharist, no ambivalence about it. That's why the practice exists, no? To honor the reserved Gifts.
Logged

Apart from moral conduct, all that man thinks himself able to do in order to become acceptable to God is mere superstition and religious folly. - Immanuel Kant
Αριστοκλής
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Diocese
Posts: 10,026


« Reply #73 on: October 01, 2012, 02:17:22 AM »

A flawed poll, I think. It lacks the option: Don't Know

which I would think to be the proper Orthodox response.
Logged

"Religion is a neurobiological illness and Orthodoxy is its cure." - Fr. John S. Romanides
dzheremi
No longer posting here.
Warned
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic
Posts: 4,383


« Reply #74 on: October 01, 2012, 02:29:19 AM »

Quote
Well crossing oneself suggests their Eucharist is the true Eucharist, no ambivalence about it. That's why the practice exists, no? To honor the reserved Gifts.

Yes. Again, the most I can say is "I hope so, but I can't know for sure". If He is not in fact there, then I am wrong, but out of sincere ignorance and even hopefulness for the sake of errant brothers rather than by some sort of proscribing of His presence on my part, which seems to me to be just the mirror image of all the inadvisable RC declarations on "sacramental validity" of other churches that I am trying to get away from in the first place. I mean, here I thought "we know where the Church is, not where it is not" meant exactly that.  Smiley
Logged

Basil 320
Site Supporter
Archon
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America, Holy Metropolis of Pittsburgh
Posts: 3,136



« Reply #75 on: October 01, 2012, 06:09:16 AM »

OK, here's what bugs me:

The Russian Church, for example, receives RC priests by vesting. This is done (presumably; let us assume so for the sake of the argument) due to the recognition of RC ordinations as conferring genuine sacramental grace; it is presumably the position of the Russian Church that RC priests are in fact priests.

Now, if the Greeks hold that RC ordinations are not valid, doesn't it follow that the Greeks have to also hold that any RC priest who converts to Orthodoxy in the Russian Church and continues to serve as a priest in that Church is in fact not a priest? And if, on the Greek view, Russian Orthodox priests may not be actual priests, and thus many Russian Orthodox sacraments may be utterly void, why are the Greeks still in full communion with the Russians?

Great question...one i'd like to be answered too

The Holy Orthodox Churches tend to accept the internal practices of their sister churches, as long as there is not a doctrinal deviation, even when they don't agree with them.  One of the Churches will not break communion with the Church of Russia because of the few convert Roman Catholic priests it accepts, by economy, by vesting. The chalice should not to be toyed with over interpretations of ecclesial practices. 

"Matters of common concern," such as this topic, can be taken up at a pan-Orthodox forum.  Again, the matter of ecumenical relations is on the agenda of the forthcoming Holy and Great Synod (Council) of the Orthodox Church and there will be reports of pre-conciliar conferences that will be debated among and within each of the Holy Orthodox Churches; (there may already be some pre-conciliar documents related to this topic of which I'm not aware).

Frankly, the Episcopal Assembly process may move this issue along to the front burner because resolution of deviations in practice (I can't think of the terminology) is a objective of the Episcopal Assembly process.
Logged

"...Strengthen the Orthodox Community..."
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 12,417


Praying for the Christians in Iraq


« Reply #76 on: October 01, 2012, 09:53:05 AM »

Baystar,
Might I suggest, that from a Catholic perspective, it does not really matter one way or another what another Christian denomination thinks about our sacraments? Certainly, there are many things that I love and respect about the Eastern Orthodox Church, but I'm not waiting on them to declare our sacraments valid. I already know that I belong to the Church established by Jesus Christ and that I have access to his Body and Blood in Holy Communion. I am sure the Eastern Orthodox feel the same way. They have never waited on us to declare their sacraments valid.
There may not be a strong possibility of unity between the Eastern Orthodox and the Catholics this side of heaven. We may never share the chalice before the return of Christ, but we can love one another, pray for each other, and get on with the work of sharing the love of Jesus Christ with a broken world.
Logged

You are right. I apologize for having sacked Constantinople. I really need to stop doing that.
J Michael
Older than dirt; dumber than a box of rocks; colossally ignorant; a little crazy ;-)
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 10,272


Lord, have mercy! I live under a rock. Alleluia!


« Reply #77 on: October 01, 2012, 10:11:19 AM »

Baystar,
Might I suggest, that from a Catholic perspective, it does not really matter one way or another what another Christian denomination thinks about our sacraments? Certainly, there are many things that I love and respect about the Eastern Orthodox Church, but I'm not waiting on them to declare our sacraments valid. I already know that I belong to the Church established by Jesus Christ and that I have access to his Body and Blood in Holy Communion. I am sure the Eastern Orthodox feel the same way. They have never waited on us to declare their sacraments valid.
There may not be a strong possibility of unity between the Eastern Orthodox and the Catholics this side of heaven. We may never share the chalice before the return of Christ, but we can love one another, pray for each other, and get on with the work of sharing the love of Jesus Christ with a broken world.

Very nicely said!
Logged

"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire.  May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian

"Sometimes you're the windshield.  Sometimes you're the bug." ~ Mark Knopfler (?)
Shanghaiski
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 7,975


Holy Trinity Church of Gergeti, Georgia


« Reply #78 on: October 01, 2012, 01:46:26 PM »

OK, here's what bugs me:

The Russian Church, for example, receives RC priests by vesting. This is done (presumably; let us assume so for the sake of the argument) due to the recognition of RC ordinations as conferring genuine sacramental grace; it is presumably the position of the Russian Church that RC priests are in fact priests.

Now, if the Greeks hold that RC ordinations are not valid, doesn't it follow that the Greeks have to also hold that any RC priest who converts to Orthodoxy in the Russian Church and continues to serve as a priest in that Church is in fact not a priest? And if, on the Greek view, Russian Orthodox priests may not be actual priests, and thus many Russian Orthodox sacraments may be utterly void, why are the Greeks still in full communion with the Russians?

Except this kind of calculating is not how Orthodoxy looks at things.
Logged

Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.
Shanghaiski
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 7,975


Holy Trinity Church of Gergeti, Georgia


« Reply #79 on: October 01, 2012, 01:53:14 PM »

Ahhh, Tasbeha...a place to argue about Thanksgiving, pumpkins, and whether it's "evkhi" or "evshi". Oh, and Orthodoxy is in there somewhere, maybe. Tongue

Quote
Do you believe that the Roman Catholic Eucharist is the Body and Blood of Christ?

I waver between being ambivalent and agnostic about this, and do not wish to be more explicit than that. Mainly because it doesn't matter, since I am not in communion with Rome. For the sake of those who are, I hope so, just like how I hope that all my non-Orthodox friends and family who have passed on are shown the same mercy that I depend on in kind. I should like to see them all in heaven, if I am blessed to be received there, but my feelings and desires are nothing compared to the judgment and mercy of God. In the end, it is not my place, as a mere layman and very new in the faith and the Church, to make judgments on such things. That is where I feel that the RC has way overstepped its boundaries, after all. The mere existence of another church that has a eucharistic service does not mean that it is acceptable before God, but again that is God's judgment to make. It is enough that I follow the directives of my own priests (who are quite conservative, despite any appearance to the contrary that I may have mistakenly given earlier; you miss Coptic "hardliners", just ask abouna about the Tome of Leo) and church in not betraying the holy faith in the name of false ecumenism. So from where I'm sitting, the important thing is that I not partake with any other Church, not whether or not I can speculate about the nature of what they consider sacraments. That is a Roman activity/pastime, not befitting of Orthodox people. You know where Christ is, so you go there. If He bestows His grace and mercy upon others in whatever way He sees fit, hallelujah. Again, I hope He does, but I can't say for sure one way or another.


Well crossing oneself suggests their Eucharist is the true Eucharist, no ambivalence about it. That's why the practice exists, no? To honor the reserved Gifts.

No. Russians in the Volga region sometimes cross themselves when passsing mosques--becasue it was built for God, even if it's a false religion.
Logged

Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.
dzheremi
No longer posting here.
Warned
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic
Posts: 4,383


« Reply #80 on: October 01, 2012, 02:13:11 PM »

Hmm. I had been told in my RC days that we do it to honor Christ who is worshiped in the church, but perhaps the Byzantines have their own reasons for doing it. It's kind of funny, because I could see Catholics more readily doing than Orthodox when passing mosques (given their official contention, viz. CCC 841, that Muslims and Christians worship the same God), but based on what you've said and what I have actually observed among Catholics, I bet that is not the case. I have certainly never done so, and wouldn't (again, because of my understanding of why it is done).
Logged

Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 12,417


Praying for the Christians in Iraq


« Reply #81 on: October 01, 2012, 02:28:04 PM »

Hmm. I had been told in my RC days that we do it to honor Christ who is worshiped in the church, but perhaps the Byzantines have their own reasons for doing it. It's kind of funny, because I could see Catholics more readily doing than Orthodox when passing mosques (given their official contention, viz. CCC 841, that Muslims and Christians worship the same God), but based on what you've said and what I have actually observed among Catholics, I bet that is not the case. I have certainly never done so, and wouldn't (again, because of my understanding of why it is done).
I would never cross myself in front of a mosque. Perhaps the muslims, by some form of natural knowledge, in a very vague and shadowy manner, can be said to worship the same God as we do. But the worship they offer is a false worship.
What is more, the reason that I cross myself in front of both Catholic and Orthodox Churches is Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist. Consequently, I don't cross myself in front of Protestant Churches, and if I don't honor Protestant Churches in this way, I certainly wouldn't do so for a muslim mosque.
Logged

You are right. I apologize for having sacked Constantinople. I really need to stop doing that.
dzheremi
No longer posting here.
Warned
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic
Posts: 4,383


« Reply #82 on: October 01, 2012, 02:36:48 PM »

Yeah, I never crossed myself in front of Protestant churches, either, and I'm certainly not about to start now. For one, even I wanted to, it's often hard to tell that the Protestant church (building) is a church. As we are neighbors, perhaps you'll find it funny that I was in the Nob Hill area recently (I am uncomfortable there, but I had to go to the bank and it happened to be close by while I was running my errands) and happened upon what I thought was a movie theater. Nope. Turned out to be some kind of Evangelical/Pentecostal (?) gathering place either made to look like a theater (complete with posters for their worship services), or occupying an old theater that they never bothered to remodel. Hey, one place is as good as any other, right? There's no holiness in the physical world according to popular Evangelical dualism, after all... Wink Worst still, it seemed by the graphics and showiness to be specifically targeting young people and disaffected ex-something elsers...thank God I found Orthodoxy when I did, lest but by the grace of God there go I... <505-specific stuff that nobody else will get>
Logged

Cyrillic
Warned
Merarches
***********
Online Online

Posts: 10,035


Cyrillico est imperare orbi universo


« Reply #83 on: October 01, 2012, 02:41:13 PM »

I cross myself too when passing a Roman church but I show my disagreement with them by crossing myself the byzantine way. I guess that makes it even.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2012, 02:41:26 PM by Cyrillic » Logged

"Claret is the liquor for boys; port for men; but he who aspires to be a hero must drink brandy."
-Dr. Samuel Johnson
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 12,417


Praying for the Christians in Iraq


« Reply #84 on: October 01, 2012, 02:42:16 PM »

Yeah, I never crossed myself in front of Protestant churches, either, and I'm certainly not about to start now. For one, even I wanted to, it's often hard to tell that the Protestant church (building) is a church. As we are neighbors, perhaps you'll find it funny that I was in the Nob Hill area recently (I am uncomfortable there, but I had to go to the bank and it happened to be close by while I was running my errands) and happened upon what I thought was a movie theater. Nope. Turned out to be some kind of Evangelical/Pentecostal (?) gathering place either made to look like a theater (complete with posters for their worship services), or occupying an old theater that they never bothered to remodel. Hey, one place is as good as any other, right? There's no holiness in the physical world according to popular Evangelical dualism, after all... Wink Worst still, it seemed by the graphics and showiness to be specifically targeting young people and disaffected ex-something elsers...thank God I found Orthodoxy when I did, lest but by the grace of God there go I... <505-specific stuff that nobody else will get>
There are quite a few interesting "christian communities" in the 505, especially in that particular area of town... disenchanted hippies and all. But we also have quite a few Mega-Churches. I drove by Sagebrush "church" this weekend, and I realized how massive the complex was, for the first time. Unfortunatley, the iconoclasm present their was rampant. It didn't look like a church at all, and could just as easily been a school or collection of office buildings. Yet, it was so massive that police had to be out to direct traffic in the area. <sigh>.
Logged

You are right. I apologize for having sacked Constantinople. I really need to stop doing that.
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 12,417


Praying for the Christians in Iraq


« Reply #85 on: October 01, 2012, 02:42:50 PM »

I cross myself too when passing a Roman church but I show my disagreement with them by crossing myself the byzantine way. I guess that makes it even.
Ha!  Grin
Logged

You are right. I apologize for having sacked Constantinople. I really need to stop doing that.
dzheremi
No longer posting here.
Warned
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic
Posts: 4,383


« Reply #86 on: October 01, 2012, 02:45:37 PM »

Papist, the thing to remember about mega churches is that they are always full, but never of the same people who were there five or ten years earlier. The spiritual search of the starving continues, and for most these grandiloquent buildings are nothing more than way stations.
Logged

OrthoNoob
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 1,074



« Reply #87 on: October 01, 2012, 04:14:38 PM »

OK, here's what bugs me:

The Russian Church, for example, receives RC priests by vesting. This is done (presumably; let us assume so for the sake of the argument) due to the recognition of RC ordinations as conferring genuine sacramental grace; it is presumably the position of the Russian Church that RC priests are in fact priests.

Now, if the Greeks hold that RC ordinations are not valid, doesn't it follow that the Greeks have to also hold that any RC priest who converts to Orthodoxy in the Russian Church and continues to serve as a priest in that Church is in fact not a priest? And if, on the Greek view, Russian Orthodox priests may not be actual priests, and thus many Russian Orthodox sacraments may be utterly void, why are the Greeks still in full communion with the Russians?

Except this kind of calculating is not how Orthodoxy looks at things.

Oh. That clears it right up. Thanks.
Logged

http://avengingredhand.wordpress.com -- My blog

'These words I, Leo, have set down for love and as a safeguard of the Orthodox Faith'
username!
Moderator
Protokentarchos
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Ukrainian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Pennsylvaniadoxy
Posts: 5,072



« Reply #88 on: October 01, 2012, 04:44:00 PM »

The OCA (which is Russian in practice) also receives priests by vesting.  I know a fantastic priest that was brought in this way. 
As far as grace and such I follow what the bishops teach.  They are the chief priest and are entrusted to "rightfully divide the Word of Truth." 
Logged

BayStater123
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Faith: Latin Church
Posts: 52


« Reply #89 on: October 01, 2012, 04:48:06 PM »

The OCA (which is Russian in practice) also receives priests by vesting.  I know a fantastic priest that was brought in this way. 
As far as grace and such I follow what the bishops teach.  They are the chief priest and are entrusted to "rightfully divide the Word of Truth." 

Was the priest originally Roman Catholic or Oriental?
Logged
Tags:
Pages: « 1 2 3 »  All   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.166 seconds with 76 queries.