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Author Topic: Pope tells SSPX traditionalists they must accept Second Vatican Council  (Read 3914 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: September 28, 2012, 01:56:37 PM »

Quote
(RNS) Pope Benedict XVI has reportedly told the traditionalist Society of St. Pius X (SSPX) that they must accept the Second Vatican Council, a move that might seal the fate of years of negotiations to bring the group fully back into the Catholic fold.
...
Benedict's bottom line would most likely be unacceptable for the SSPX, bringing to an end the pontiff's effort to heal a decade-long schism in the Catholic Church.

The SSPX rejects the modernizing reforms of the Second Vatican Council (1962-1965), including church acceptance of ecumenism and religious freedom, and its rejection of anti-Semitism.
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« Reply #1 on: September 28, 2012, 02:15:29 PM »

Quote
(RNS) Pope Benedict XVI has reportedly told the traditionalist Society of St. Pius X (SSPX) that they must accept the Second Vatican Council, a move that might seal the fate of years of negotiations to bring the group fully back into the Catholic fold.
...
Benedict's bottom line would most likely be unacceptable for the SSPX, bringing to an end the pontiff's effort to heal a decade-long schism in the Catholic Church.

The SSPX rejects the modernizing reforms of the Second Vatican Council (1962-1965), including church acceptance of ecumenism and religious freedom, and its rejection of anti-Semitism.

Thank goodness that the Pope is finally being honest.

He would have imposed this on the SSPX had they joined Rome.

It was inevitable. How could a divided RCC survive?
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« Reply #2 on: September 28, 2012, 02:23:41 PM »

SSPX - Say goodbye to Der Panzerpope and say hello to the Western Rite!
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« Reply #3 on: September 28, 2012, 02:31:24 PM »

What do they mean about the whole antisemitism business?

I've known an SSPXer for some time. Great guy and wonderful family.

I wonder if he is against being against antisemitism. Actually, I have to talk to him in about 20 minutes, I'll ask.
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« Reply #4 on: September 28, 2012, 03:02:14 PM »

I believe they're referring to remarks against "the Jews" contained in the service texts (our texts retain similar bits). There is at least one holocaust denier SSPX bishop but I don't think that's the problem here.
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« Reply #5 on: September 28, 2012, 03:04:38 PM »

I believe they're referring to remarks against "the Jews" contained in the service texts (our texts retain similar bits). There is at least one holocaust denier SSPX bishop but I don't think that's the problem here.

*Any* bishop who denies the Holocaust is a problem.  And he has been one, from what I can tell.
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« Reply #6 on: September 28, 2012, 03:13:51 PM »

SSPX - Say goodbye to Der Panzerpope and say hello to the Western Rite!
lol thinking the same thing.
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« Reply #7 on: September 28, 2012, 03:21:44 PM »

SSPX - Say goodbye to Der Panzerpope and say hello to the Western Rite!
lol thinking the same thing.
Yeah right. Ask the SSPX what they think about artificial birth control and denying scholastic theology.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2012, 03:22:18 PM by Papist » Logged

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« Reply #8 on: September 28, 2012, 03:26:49 PM »

SSPX - Say goodbye to Der Panzerpope and say hello to the Western Rite!
lol thinking the same thing.
Yeah right. Ask the SSPX what they think about artificial birth control and denying scholastic theology.
Papist is correct.  The SSPX are more likely to just go it alone.  Heck in a few generations they may be the largest part of the Roman Catholic Church.
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« Reply #9 on: September 28, 2012, 03:29:56 PM »

SSPX - Say goodbye to Der Panzerpope and say hello to the Western Rite!
lol thinking the same thing.
Yeah right. Ask the SSPX what they think about artificial birth control and denying scholastic theology.
Papist is correct.  The SSPX are more likely to just go it alone.  Heck in a few generations they may be the largest part of the Roman Catholic Church.

If they go it alone, and are not in communion with Rome, that would make them NOT a part of the Roman Catholic Church, no? 

I agree with Papist--I do not see them coming into the Orthodox Church.  But...stranger things have happened.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2012, 03:31:02 PM by J Michael » Logged

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« Reply #10 on: September 28, 2012, 03:49:28 PM »

SSPX - Say goodbye to Der Panzerpope and say hello to the Western Rite!
lol thinking the same thing.
Yeah right. Ask the SSPX what they think about artificial birth control and denying scholastic theology.
Papist is correct.  The SSPX are more likely to just go it alone.  Heck in a few generations they may be the largest part of the Roman Catholic Church.

If they go it alone, and are not in communion with Rome, that would make them NOT a part of the Roman Catholic Church, no? 
That would depend upon your perspective.  Even though they are in "schism" of a sorts now, the Vatican still considers them to be Roman Catholic.  But - of course - the SSPX consider themselves to be the real Roman Catholics.  It's all a matter of perspective.
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« Reply #11 on: September 28, 2012, 03:51:50 PM »

SSPX - Say goodbye to Der Panzerpope and say hello to the Western Rite!
lol thinking the same thing.
Yeah right. Ask the SSPX what they think about artificial birth control and denying scholastic theology.
Papist is correct.  The SSPX are more likely to just go it alone.  Heck in a few generations they may be the largest part of the Roman Catholic Church.

If they go it alone, and are not in communion with Rome, that would make them NOT a part of the Roman Catholic Church, no? 

I agree with Papist--I do not see them coming into the Orthodox Church.  But...stranger things have happened.

Right on!  Why would SSPX join with the Orthodox Church, when they consider us to be hertetics?
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« Reply #12 on: September 28, 2012, 04:46:33 PM »

They were tricked into these negotiations.
The whole business of "allowing" the old Mass and re-introducing traditional vestments, etc, has been a snare and trickery.
Just when the SSPX appeared to be split in two, the Pope revealed that nothing has changed and that acceptance of VII is a requirement for reconciliation, in the hope of having caught the superior and many others already. Alas, the trap was sprung too early and they evaded it.
I agree with Maria in that it would have been imposed eventually anyway. They just tried too early in the game.

Anti-semitism?
The "anti-semitism" of the SSPX is just wanting to convert Jews to Christ and holding fast to that part of church teaching. Needless to say, the Novus Ordo church has "moved beyond" that and prefer to say that their Covenant is salvific for them (Kardinal Kasper repeatedly) and just change the whole doctrine of the RCC on the subject under and after VaticanII.
Whatever Bishop Williamson said..., it is his personal opinion and not an opnion of the SSPX as such. Besides, he uttered an opinion about a historical incident. No matter how stupid an utterance about a historical incident may be, it has nothing to do with dogma. If I hold the opinion that Napolean didn't win but rather lost at Jena, then the only thing I am guilty of, is being a bit stupid.
He said nothing touching upon the morality of the Jewish tragedy. Murder is murder and is evil. He just thinks a lot less people were killed than the official numbers say.
The SSPX as a whole does not speculate about history, but are concerned with the Catholic faith only. (Remember that the bishops of the Society are only auxiliary Bishops and not leaders of the group. That the current superior is a Bishop, is coincidence. Before, it was only priests who were superiors.

In any case, RCC teaching is not easy to find out about these days. It used to pretty clear and concise, but not any more. That 3 successive popes can teach differently to what the church has always taught and that people are willingly blind and convince themselves that "in some mysterious way, the former and the present teaching can be reconciled", is beyond me.
Personally, I am currently taking  (and suffering)  the consequences of that and to my horror I have discovered that maybe changing doctrines isn't a new thing with the Catholic church. It is just that this change is somehow much more radical.

After many years as a convinced and devout traditionalist Catholic, I am having serious doubts about the whole thing and from the looks of it on this forum, I am not the only one.
Modernist Popes, extremely rampant Liberalism and Modernism, man-made and concocted liturgy created to be doctrinally pleasant for Protestants, Pope asking St. John the Baptist to bless Islam, Pope receiving animist blessings in Benin, Popes having ecumenist meetings in Assisi and praying with all sorts of pagans, Jews and heretics while cuddling up to the ADL.
 and the only piece of liturgy which at least has connection to the past, the traditional Latin Mass, was effectively banned for 50 years and is now "the extraordinary form".
They are discussing how they can "merge" the bogus disorder liturgy and the 1962-TLM and create some hybrid out of it...Nothing is sacred for them.
The SSPX is fighting heroically, but it is the fight of the Samurai against the Emperor in "The Last Samurai", if you remember that film.

Unless something drastic happens, I seriously doubt the SSPX as a whole would go Orthodox. However, individual layfolk or priests might, but not too many. Papist and Monk Vasyl are probably right.

Regarding the communion-thing... They ARE in communion. They are not excommunicated.
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« Reply #13 on: September 28, 2012, 04:55:05 PM »

I believe they're referring to remarks against "the Jews" contained in the service texts (our texts retain similar bits). There is at least one holocaust denier SSPX bishop but I don't think that's the problem here.
Holocaust "denier"? Really? Can you people actually think for yourselves?

Or maybe you live in Europe where critical thought is a criminal act prosecuted as Hate Speech.
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« Reply #14 on: September 28, 2012, 05:11:30 PM »

I believe they're referring to remarks against "the Jews" contained in the service texts (our texts retain similar bits). There is at least one holocaust denier SSPX bishop but I don't think that's the problem here.
Holocaust "denier"? Really? Can you people actually think for yourselves?

Or maybe you live in Europe where critical thought is a criminal act prosecuted as Hate Speech.

Exactly. As if one has to believe in it to be a Christian. That is certainly the view held by many today.
Whatever one believes about that tragic incident during WWII, it is not a part of the Christian Faith.
In Germany, if I say publicly that "Oh what a tragedy the Holcaust was. 3 million was gassed and died horribly", I am guilty of a hate crime. Reason?  I  denied that 6 million died when I said 3 million.
I can go to prison for that.

However, Iconodule is right about the texts. Both Catholic and Orthodox have them. Oh wait, ....the Pope in Rome changed it 3 years ago and tossed out one of the most ancient prayers of the Mass and replaced it with one he wrote himself after being asked by the ADL to do it.
 We don't have such texts any more in the Catholic liturgy, so now only the Orthodox are "anti-semites".
Sounds a bit ridiculous, doesn't it?
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« Reply #15 on: September 28, 2012, 05:29:32 PM »

SSPX - Say goodbye to Der Panzerpope and say hello to the Western Rite!
lol thinking the same thing.
Yeah right. Ask the SSPX what they think about artificial birth control and denying scholastic theology.
Papist is correct.  The SSPX are more likely to just go it alone.  Heck in a few generations they may be the largest part of the Roman Catholic Church.

If they go it alone, and are not in communion with Rome, that would make them NOT a part of the Roman Catholic Church, no? 
That would depend upon your perspective.  Even though they are in "schism" of a sorts now, the Vatican still considers them to be Roman Catholic.  But - of course - the SSPX consider themselves to be the real Roman Catholics.  It's all a matter of perspective.
True. Currently the SSPX is not regularized, but they are no longer excommunicated either. So technically, they are Catholic. However, if they refuse to accept VII, it is possible that they will be excommunicated again. Who knows.
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« Reply #16 on: September 28, 2012, 05:32:08 PM »

SSPX - Say goodbye to Der Panzerpope and say hello to the Western Rite!
lol thinking the same thing.
Yeah right. Ask the SSPX what they think about artificial birth control and denying scholastic theology.
Papist is correct.  The SSPX are more likely to just go it alone.  Heck in a few generations they may be the largest part of the Roman Catholic Church.

If they go it alone, and are not in communion with Rome, that would make them NOT a part of the Roman Catholic Church, no? 
That would depend upon your perspective.  Even though they are in "schism" of a sorts now, the Vatican still considers them to be Roman Catholic.  But - of course - the SSPX consider themselves to be the real Roman Catholics.  It's all a matter of perspective.
True. Currently the SSPX is not regularized, but they are no longer excommunicated either. So technically, they are Catholic. However, if they refuse to accept VII, it is possible that they will be excommunicated again. Who knows.
Even prior to the lifting of the excommunications the SSPX were in a strange canonical position, because Rome had issued several documents that implied the SSPX were not in schism.
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« Reply #17 on: September 28, 2012, 05:32:54 PM »

I believe they're referring to remarks against "the Jews" contained in the service texts (our texts retain similar bits). There is at least one holocaust denier SSPX bishop but I don't think that's the problem here.
Holocaust "denier"? Really? Can you people actually think for yourselves?

Or maybe you live in Europe where critical thought is a criminal act prosecuted as Hate Speech.
So what you are saying is the Holocaust was done on a much smaller scale or what?
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« Reply #18 on: September 28, 2012, 05:36:36 PM »

SSPX - Say goodbye to Der Panzerpope and say hello to the Western Rite!
lol thinking the same thing.
Yeah right. Ask the SSPX what they think about artificial birth control and denying scholastic theology.
Papist is correct.  The SSPX are more likely to just go it alone.  Heck in a few generations they may be the largest part of the Roman Catholic Church.

If they go it alone, and are not in communion with Rome, that would make them NOT a part of the Roman Catholic Church, no?  
That would depend upon your perspective.  Even though they are in "schism" of a sorts now, the Vatican still considers them to be Roman Catholic.  But - of course - the SSPX consider themselves to be the real Roman Catholics.  It's all a matter of perspective.
True. Currently the SSPX is not regularized, but they are no longer excommunicated either. So technically, they are Catholic. However, if they refuse to accept VII, it is possible that they will be excommunicated again. Who knows.
Even prior to the lifting of the excommunications the SSPX were in a strange canonical position, because Rome had issued several documents that implied the SSPX were not in schism.
Yep. Some have implied that when the SSPX were excommunicated, they were in a state of "internal schism," analogous to the schism that used to exist between ROCOR and the MP. So yes, their situation is messy. The interesting thing is that the SSPX actually agrees with more of VII than do modernists in the Church... Heck, the acceptance of the Papacy puts the SSPX in greater agreement with VII than many Byzantine Catholics who are in a regularized relationship with Rome.
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« Reply #19 on: September 28, 2012, 05:51:24 PM »

I believe they're referring to remarks against "the Jews" contained in the service texts (our texts retain similar bits). There is at least one holocaust denier SSPX bishop but I don't think that's the problem here.
Holocaust "denier"? Really? Can you people actually think for yourselves?

Or maybe you live in Europe where critical thought is a criminal act prosecuted as Hate Speech.

Exactly. As if one has to believe in it to be a Christian.
That is certainly the view held by many today.
Whatever one believes about that tragic incident during WWII, it is not a part of the Christian Faith.
In Germany, if I say publicly that "Oh what a tragedy the Holcaust was. 3 million was gassed and died horribly", I am guilty of a hate crime. Reason?  I  denied that 6 million died when I said 3 million.
I can go to prison for that.

However, Iconodule is right about the texts. Both Catholic and Orthodox have them. Oh wait, ....the Pope in Rome changed it 3 years ago and tossed out one of the most ancient prayers of the Mass and replaced it with one he wrote himself after being asked by the ADL to do it.
 We don't have such texts any more in the Catholic liturgy, so now only the Orthodox are "anti-semites".
Sounds a bit ridiculous, doesn't it?
It's more than that, it's become a religion, in of itself.

Think about it for a minute, those that enforce the coerced belief system about it are more zealous and fanatical than the most radical Muslim, anyone who questions the official party line is selected for extinction, hence the Fatwa issued against BP Williamson after his personal opinion on the subject.

Also the change in the liturgy placating Abe Foxman and his merry band of shysters was nothing short of despicable.

Prayers to God for the conversion of the Jews offends the ADL so Ratzinger decides to convert himself and offend God.

Like I said, despicable.
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« Reply #20 on: September 28, 2012, 05:57:51 PM »

I believe they're referring to remarks against "the Jews" contained in the service texts (our texts retain similar bits). There is at least one holocaust denier SSPX bishop but I don't think that's the problem here.
Holocaust "denier"? Really? Can you people actually think for yourselves?

Or maybe you live in Europe where critical thought is a criminal act prosecuted as Hate Speech.
So what you are saying is the Holocaust was done on a much smaller scale or what?
What does it matter ? The question is does anyone have a right to question anything about it?

I guess not in Nazi.......er, I mean, Free and Democratic Germany these days.  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #21 on: September 28, 2012, 06:56:52 PM »

Most Catholics I know don't accept the Second Vatican Counsel.  They prefer the first.
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« Reply #22 on: September 28, 2012, 06:58:56 PM »

What do they mean about the whole antisemitism business?

I've known an SSPXer for some time. Great guy and wonderful family.

I wonder if he is against being against antisemitism. Actually, I have to talk to him in about 20 minutes, I'll ask.
I think it depends on what one defines as antisemitism.  In today's world, disagreement is a hate crime.
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« Reply #23 on: September 28, 2012, 07:29:22 PM »

"Think for yourself!" "Stop working for the PC police!" etc. etc. etc.
People who believe firmly in something really dumb, which is also very unpopular, need to focus on the "unpopular" part to draw attention away from the "really dumb" part.
Williamson is a holocaust denier, yes. He and his supporters deserve mockery and pity. Mostly mockery.
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« Reply #24 on: September 28, 2012, 07:42:37 PM »

They were tricked into these negotiations.
The whole business of "allowing" the old Mass and re-introducing traditional vestments, etc, has been a snare and trickery.
Just when the SSPX appeared to be split in two, the Pope revealed that nothing has changed and that acceptance of VII is a requirement for reconciliation, in the hope of having caught the superior and many others already. Alas, the trap was sprung too early and they evaded it.
I agree with Maria in that it would have been imposed eventually anyway. They just tried too early in the game.

Anti-semitism?
The "anti-semitism" of the SSPX is just wanting to convert Jews to Christ and holding fast to that part of church teaching. Needless to say, the Novus Ordo church has "moved beyond" that and prefer to say that their Covenant is salvific for them (Kardinal Kasper repeatedly) and just change the whole doctrine of the RCC on the subject under and after VaticanII.
Whatever Bishop Williamson said..., it is his personal opinion and not an opnion of the SSPX as such. Besides, he uttered an opinion about a historical incident. No matter how stupid an utterance about a historical incident may be, it has nothing to do with dogma. If I hold the opinion that Napolean didn't win but rather lost at Jena, then the only thing I am guilty of, is being a bit stupid.
He said nothing touching upon the morality of the Jewish tragedy. Murder is murder and is evil. He just thinks a lot less people were killed than the official numbers say.
The SSPX as a whole does not speculate about history, but are concerned with the Catholic faith only. (Remember that the bishops of the Society are only auxiliary Bishops and not leaders of the group. That the current superior is a Bishop, is coincidence. Before, it was only priests who were superiors.

In any case, RCC teaching is not easy to find out about these days. It used to pretty clear and concise, but not any more. That 3 successive popes can teach differently to what the church has always taught and that people are willingly blind and convince themselves that "in some mysterious way, the former and the present teaching can be reconciled", is beyond me.
Personally, I am currently taking  (and suffering)  the consequences of that and to my horror I have discovered that maybe changing doctrines isn't a new thing with the Catholic church. It is just that this change is somehow much more radical.

After many years as a convinced and devout traditionalist Catholic, I am having serious doubts about the whole thing and from the looks of it on this forum, I am not the only one.
Modernist Popes, extremely rampant Liberalism and Modernism, man-made and concocted liturgy created to be doctrinally pleasant for Protestants, Pope asking St. John the Baptist to bless Islam, Pope receiving animist blessings in Benin, Popes having ecumenist meetings in Assisi and praying with all sorts of pagans, Jews and heretics while cuddling up to the ADL.
 and the only piece of liturgy which at least has connection to the past, the traditional Latin Mass, was effectively banned for 50 years and is now "the extraordinary form".
They are discussing how they can "merge" the bogus disorder liturgy and the 1962-TLM and create some hybrid out of it...Nothing is sacred for them.
The SSPX is fighting heroically, but it is the fight of the Samurai against the Emperor in "The Last Samurai", if you remember that film.

Unless something drastic happens, I seriously doubt the SSPX as a whole would go Orthodox. However, individual layfolk or priests might, but not too many. Papist and Monk Vasyl are probably right.

Regarding the communion-thing... They ARE in communion. They are not excommunicated.

I am a convert to Orthodoxy from Roman Catholicism.
I shared the same struggle. It was a nightmare.
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« Reply #25 on: September 28, 2012, 07:50:32 PM »

Most Catholics I know don't accept the Second Vatican Counsel.  They prefer the first.

How is any Christian at liberty to not accept an ecumenical council of his/her own Church?
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« Reply #26 on: September 28, 2012, 07:55:53 PM »

"Think for yourself!" "Stop working for the PC police!" etc. etc. etc.
People who believe firmly in something really dumb, which is also very unpopular, need to focus on the "unpopular" part to draw attention away from the "really dumb" part.
Williamson is a holocaust denier, yes. He and his supporters deserve mockery and pity. Mostly mockery.

Thank you. Finally, someone said it.
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« Reply #27 on: September 28, 2012, 08:15:23 PM »

After many years as a convinced and devout traditionalist Catholic, I am having serious doubts about the whole thing and from the looks of it on this forum, I am not the only one.
Modernist Popes, extremely rampant Liberalism and Modernism, man-made and concocted liturgy created to be doctrinally pleasant for Protestants, Pope asking St. John the Baptist to bless Islam, Pope receiving animist blessings in Benin, Popes having ecumenist meetings in Assisi and praying with all sorts of pagans, Jews and heretics while cuddling up to the ADL.
 and the only piece of liturgy which at least has connection to the past, the traditional Latin Mass, was effectively banned for 50 years and is now "the extraordinary form".
They are discussing how they can "merge" the bogus disorder liturgy and the 1962-TLM and create some hybrid out of it...Nothing is sacred for them.
The SSPX is fighting heroically, but it is the fight of the Samurai against the Emperor in "The Last Samurai", if you remember that film.
Wow didn't know the extent of how bad it is.

I will pray for you all.
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« Reply #28 on: September 28, 2012, 08:18:32 PM »

Lawl at the comparison of ecumenist popes to His Imperial Majesty the Meiji Emperor.
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« Reply #29 on: September 28, 2012, 08:24:01 PM »

Lawl at the comparison of ecumenist popes to His Imperial Majesty the Meiji Emperor.
Who's Tom Cruise?
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« Reply #30 on: September 28, 2012, 09:06:01 PM »

Most Catholics I know don't accept the Second Vatican Counsel.  They prefer the first.

How is any Christian at liberty to not accept an ecumenical council of his/her own Church?

I don't know.  Perhaps I should have said disagree.  I even had one say it was the worst thing to happen to the Roman Catholic Church in recent history and this was a young (20s) cradle Catholic.
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« Reply #31 on: September 29, 2012, 07:47:37 AM »

I believe they're referring to remarks against "the Jews" contained in the service texts (our texts retain similar bits). There is at least one holocaust denier SSPX bishop but I don't think that's the problem here.
Holocaust "denier"? Really? Can you people actually think for yourselves?

Or maybe you live in Europe where critical thought is a criminal act prosecuted as Hate Speech.

Exactly. As if one has to believe in it to be a Christian.
That is certainly the view held by many today.
Whatever one believes about that tragic incident during WWII, it is not a part of the Christian Faith.
In Germany, if I say publicly that "Oh what a tragedy the Holcaust was. 3 million was gassed and died horribly", I am guilty of a hate crime. Reason?  I  denied that 6 million died when I said 3 million.
I can go to prison for that.

However, Iconodule is right about the texts. Both Catholic and Orthodox have them. Oh wait, ....the Pope in Rome changed it 3 years ago and tossed out one of the most ancient prayers of the Mass and replaced it with one he wrote himself after being asked by the ADL to do it.
 We don't have such texts any more in the Catholic liturgy, so now only the Orthodox are "anti-semites".
Sounds a bit ridiculous, doesn't it?
It's more than that, it's become a religion, in of itself.

Think about it for a minute, those that enforce the coerced belief system about it are more zealous and fanatical than the most radical Muslim, anyone who questions the official party line is selected for extinction, hence the Fatwa issued against BP Williamson after his personal opinion on the subject.

Also the change in the liturgy placating Abe Foxman and his merry band of shysters was nothing short of despicable.

Prayers to God for the conversion of the Jews offends the ADL so Ratzinger decides to convert himself and offend God.

Like I said, despicable.

Utterly despicable.
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« Reply #32 on: September 29, 2012, 08:00:21 AM »

Isn't participating in animist rituals ipse facto apostasy?
« Last Edit: September 29, 2012, 08:01:25 AM by Cyrillic » Logged

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« Reply #33 on: September 29, 2012, 08:10:31 AM »

Most Catholics I know don't accept the Second Vatican Counsel.  They prefer the first.

How is any Christian at liberty to not accept an ecumenical council of his/her own Church?

From a Catholic perspective, this is a bit complicated..
You see, VII never claimed to be a dogmatic council. According to the words of Pope Paul VI the council didn't concern itself with doctrines, more than sometimes reiterating what had already been defined before. Furthermore he said that the council was a "pastoral" council, whatever that means. It has never been defined.
 Archbishop Pericle Felici, official spokesman, when interviewed by the press just after the closing of the council. said that one should be careful with what appears to be new doctrines.
In addition, many bishops did not sign the council documents and they were never excommunicated nor punished in some other way.
Moreover, there is dissent also within the Novus Ordo- part of the Catholic church, particularly vocal in the 3 last years. Professor of Theology Msgr. Brunero Gherardini, of the so-called Roman School of Theology is an example.
It seems to be that only towards the SSPX is total acceptance of the council a prerequisite for reconciliation.
 
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« Reply #34 on: September 29, 2012, 08:18:25 AM »

The "anti-semitism" of the SSPX is just wanting to convert Jews to Christ and holding fast to that part of church teaching.

THAT makes you an antisemite today? Didn't the apostles try to convert the Jews?
« Last Edit: September 29, 2012, 08:18:55 AM by Cyrillic » Logged

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« Reply #35 on: September 29, 2012, 08:35:20 AM »

Isn't participating in animist rituals ipse facto apostasy?

With knowledge and intent, yes.
But apparently not after VaticanII. The pics of JPII doing this can be found in many places online. Just google it.

They even invited Hindus to perform pagan rituals in the Fatima Cathedral and the local bishop there participated and ran around with this red dot on his forehead after being "blessed" by the Hindu priest.
Not to mention what took place in Assisi in 1986... Sacrilege upon sacrilege.
And of course the new post-conciliar papal sport of speaking in synagogues, naturally without mentioning conversion to Christ.

Up until very recently, I believed that the RCC was the Church of Christ, in spite of the faults of churchmen. Now I am not so sure..and it is heartbreaking.
In addition, the sentralisation of power and jurisdiction has always bugged me a bit...and now I am researching that field further and thus inquiring into Orthodoxy and its claims.
Humanly speaking, I seriously doubt that  Modernism and Liberalism could take such a hold in Orthodoxy, particularly since there is no "command centre" to corrupt, which in turn can corrupt the rest of the body.
The Catholic bishops and popes who were behind the debacle, where all trained and formed in the pre-VII church and were all taught differently. Still, almost no one resisted when they were told by the central power that 2+2 is no longer 4, but 5.
 In modern times, with communications as advanced as they are, it does not take long to spread spiritual poison. When you have the sentralised infrastructure ready as well(Pope and Vatican being the supreme power over all and everywhere), the infestation does not take long.
If the infrastructure had not been there, it would likely not have happened. At least not at such a speed.
I have come to believe that the desentralised structure of Orthodoxy is, humanly speaking, its best protection from the same venom. Thus there must indeed be something to it.....
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« Reply #36 on: September 29, 2012, 08:42:48 AM »

Isn't participating in animist rituals ipse facto apostasy?

With knowledge and intent, yes.
But apparently not after VaticanII. The pics of JPII doing this can be found in many places online. Just google it.

They even invited Hindus to perform pagan rituals in the Fatima Cathedral and the local bishop there participated and ran around with this red dot on his forehead after being "blessed" by the Hindu priest.
Not to mention what took place in Assisi in 1986... Sacrilege upon sacrilege.
And of course the new post-conciliar papal sport of speaking in synagogues, naturally without mentioning conversion to Christ.

Up until very recently, I believed that the RCC was the Church of Christ, in spite of the faults of churchmen. Now I am not so sure..and it is heartbreaking.
In addition, the sentralisation of power and jurisdiction has always bugged me a bit...and now I am researching that field further and thus inquiring into Orthodoxy and its claims.
Humanly speaking, I seriously doubt that  Modernism and Liberalism could take such a hold in Orthodoxy, particularly since there is no "command centre" to corrupt, which in turn can corrupt the rest of the body.
The Catholic bishops and popes who were behind the debacle, where all trained and formed in the pre-VII church and were all taught differently. Still, almost no one resisted when they were told by the central power that 2+2 is no longer 4, but 5.
 In modern times, with communications as advanced as they are, it does not take long to spread spiritual poison. When you have the sentralised infrastructure ready as well(Pope and Vatican being the supreme power over all and everywhere), the infestation does not take long.
If the infrastructure had not been there, it would likely not have happened. At least not at such a speed.
I have come to believe that the desentralised structure of Orthodoxy is, humanly speaking, its best protection from the same venom. Thus there must indeed be something to it.....


Yeah, we're all pretty excited about Orthodoxy. Grin
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« Reply #37 on: September 29, 2012, 08:45:12 AM »

The "anti-semitism" of the SSPX is just wanting to convert Jews to Christ and holding fast to that part of church teaching.

THAT makes you an antisemite today? Didn't the apostles try to convert the Jews?

Yes, it does. Because it is "coercion" to be missionary today. And if you "coerce" someone and they happen to be  Jews, you are ipso facto anti-semitic.
The Apostles could convert Jews all they wanted and martyrs of the church could suffer and die for it in the past, like St. Stephen. But VaticanII  and the post-conciliar church knows better.
Therefore they changed the prayer for the conversion of Jews in the liturgy in 2008/09, I think it was. The word " perfidis" which is "faithless" in the liturgy was done away with already in 1962 (when Pope John XIII wanted to open the windows of the church to the world, he didn't want Christians to pray for "the faithless Jews" anymore, only for "The Jews" that they may see their errors and convert to Christ.
Now, the whole prayer has disappeared and been replaced by one which Benedict XVI wrote himself after being pressured by the ADL, some rabbis and other Jewish organisations.
One must not pray for the conversion of the Jewish people, because conversion is coercion and is anti-semitic.
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« Reply #38 on: September 29, 2012, 09:07:07 AM »

The "anti-semitism" of the SSPX is just wanting to convert Jews to Christ and holding fast to that part of church teaching.

THAT makes you an antisemite today? Didn't the apostles try to convert the Jews?

Yes, it does. Because it is "coercion" to be missionary today. And if you "coerce" someone and they happen to be  Jews, you are ipso facto anti-semitic.
The Apostles could convert Jews all they wanted and martyrs of the church could suffer and die for it in the past, like St. Stephen. But VaticanII  and the post-conciliar church knows better.
Therefore they changed the prayer for the conversion of Jews in the liturgy in 2008/09, I think it was. The word " perfidis" which is "faithless" in the liturgy was done away with already in 1962 (when Pope John XIII wanted to open the windows of the church to the world, he didn't want Christians to pray for "the faithless Jews" anymore, only for "The Jews" that they may see their errors and convert to Christ.
Now, the whole prayer has disappeared and been replaced by one which Benedict XVI wrote himself after being pressured by the ADL, some rabbis and other Jewish organisations.
One must not pray for the conversion of the Jewish people, because conversion is coercion and is anti-semitic.


I don't envy the position the traditionalists in the RCC are in.
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« Reply #39 on: September 29, 2012, 10:53:57 AM »

I think many Orthodox who look at the last two Popes and somehow see them as being "traditional" are probably not seeing the whole picture. I think the last two Popes have actually been quite liberal. They are simply more open to the East because of their general liberal attitudes. After all, the same Pope that prayed with Patriarch Bartholomew is the same pope who kissed the Quran and did many other things which actually cross the line on the heresy of Ecumenism. There is a difference between seeking mutual understanding between faiths and actually committing Ecumenism.

It's like a former teacher of mine. He was a very nice, kind man. He was also open to Orthodoxy, but he was also the same way with many other Christian traditions & even non-Christian religions. He, and others at my alma mater are of a more liberal flavor when it comes to religion. A specific group in that university (affiliated with my former delusion) is more willing to visit Synagogues and Mosques than they are a traditional Roman Catholic service or an Orthodox liturgy.

To be very honest, openness doesn't mean unity is any closer. In fact, too much openness simply means it is even further away. The Pope's openness to Judaism, Islam and Hinduism, as well as Eastern Christianity is a sign that the Papacy is just as sick (if not moreso) than ever.
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« Reply #40 on: September 29, 2012, 11:36:14 AM »

Most Catholics I know don't accept the Second Vatican Counsel.  They prefer the first.
That's "Council".......I hate to be a grammar Nazi but sometimes I can't help it. 

And if I screw up, feel free to remind of it in the future.  Grin
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« Reply #41 on: September 29, 2012, 11:39:58 AM »

"Think for yourself!" "Stop working for the PC police!" etc. etc. etc.
People who believe firmly in something really dumb, which is also very unpopular, need to focus on the "unpopular" part to draw attention away from the "really dumb" part.
Williamson is a holocaust denier, yes. He and his supporters deserve mockery and pity. Mostly mockery.
You're right, people who believe in the Holocaust religion need to be openly mocked and ridiculed.

People who hate free speech like modern day Germany need the same.

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« Reply #42 on: September 29, 2012, 11:54:20 AM »

I think many Orthodox who look at the last two Popes and somehow see them as being "traditional" are probably not seeing the whole picture. I think the last two Popes have actually been quite liberal. They are simply more open to the East because of their general liberal attitudes. After all, the same Pope that prayed with Patriarch Bartholomew is the same pope who kissed the Quran and did many other things which actually cross the line on the heresy of Ecumenism. There is a difference between seeking mutual understanding between faiths and actually committing Ecumenism.

It's like a former teacher of mine. He was a very nice, kind man. He was also open to Orthodoxy, but he was also the same way with many other Christian traditions & even non-Christian religions. He, and others at my alma mater are of a more liberal flavor when it comes to religion. A specific group in that university (affiliated with my former delusion) is more willing to visit Synagogues and Mosques than they are a traditional Roman Catholic service or an Orthodox liturgy.

To be very honest, openness doesn't mean unity is any closer. In fact, too much openness simply means it is even further away. The Pope's openness to Judaism, Islam and Hinduism, as well as Eastern Christianity is a sign that the Papacy is just as sick (if not moreso) than ever.

Excellent observation.  I would be more respective of a conservative Papacy than a liberal one for these reasons.
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« Reply #43 on: September 29, 2012, 12:13:36 PM »

Say hello to the Western Rite?  The SSPX are ultra-trads, they believe all other Rites to be heretical.  There is no way they will 'dox.
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« Reply #44 on: September 29, 2012, 12:56:10 PM »



Right on!  Why would SSPX join with the Orthodox Church, when they consider us to be hertetics?

Exactly and spot on.  The SSPX'rs would rather jump off a cliff than joining the Orthodox Church.
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