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Author Topic: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...  (Read 21693 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #630 on: January 29, 2014, 03:04:42 PM »

^What's interesting is that Bashar Al-Assad -the Lion of the Arabs, the Protector of Chris... oh, you know the drill- is Alawite while his wife Asma Akhras is Sunni. The Sunnis traditionally consider Alawites to be non-Muslim, so I'm guessing the Sheikh who married them must have been very liberal regarding inter-sect marriages.

But yes, you are correct. Muslim women marrying non-Muslim men is a big no-no. However, Muslim men can marry non-Muslim women who are of the "people of the book" (I.e. Jews and Christians).

It is much more complex than that on both accounts as most things are in Islamic jurisprudence. A cursory glance at the rulings on the matter would show as in most cases there is no rule which is binding outside time, manner, and place, no matter that is what the so called fundamentalists and the Islamophobes would like.

Really, it just takes some lazy research to see that both idiots like Daniel Pipes and youtube fatwa issuers have no care for what they speak of.

Of course, Islamophobes at once decry Islam for being too ideologically blind and tyrannical while defaming it for being to opportunistic and plastic allowing to be whatever anyone wants it to be. But such are the ranting of idiots.

So, the Consensus (Ijma') of the Islamic scholars, and the Qur'an are not valid sources of Islamic law and jurisprudence in your opinion. Unfortunately for you, the majority of the Islamic population who are knowledgeable about their religion would disagree with you.

We are in the same hermeneutic problem that the Orthodox face, in virtue of what is that consensus of the everyday man found?

And I don't think most Muslims understand a fig, much like the Orthodox, of what how various rulings are made. And given that rulings are distributed which are in opposition, something must be amiss in your desire to create a singular face of Islamic law.

You should get over your desire to paint Islam with a wide brush, if only for the reason that you are going to let down when you find out that the "Patristic Consensus" in Orthodoxy is wildly variable thing as well, allowed to remain in stasis only in light of saying economy a lot.

I recognize that there are varying beliefs in Islam, but there is a general consensus. The reason there are four Madhahib is due to this variance of belief. But nowhere does this variance of belief contradict, in the above cases, the Qur'an and the Consensus view, that Muslim women cannot marry non-Muslim males, or in the case you are referring to above, the doctrine of jihad defined as perpetual warfare to expand the territory of the Islamic State.

The Consensus on those views has not been challenged, only differing views on superficial matters.

Tell that to the numerous Muslim women who have married non-Muslim men. Or nearly every Muslim I know who would reject your notion of "perpetual warfare to expand the territory of the Islamic State". But of course there is the "real Islam" that no one really encounters. They said the same about the Judaism of my family.  

But if you have the specifics on speculative jurisprudence and how it came to be relied upon more in the post-colonial era to redress political concerns never imagined in the rulings drawn upon hundreds of years earlier, I would appreciate it. I do a lot of listening, so I don't have those infos easily available and texts in English and German about such things I've found hard to come by.
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« Reply #631 on: January 29, 2014, 03:08:17 PM »

For instance, I would ask how many youtube and other idiotic rulings are based on speculative previous rulings?

Sorry, I don't do poppy and use Arabic or google mine for info like you. Do you know what speculative jurisprudence is? And how throughout most of the history its rulings were understood? Do you know when and who began to rely on speculative jurisprudence to make actual rulings?

If so, summarize it for me, as I am bit vague on it and would like some crib notes. Thanks.

I don't know the history of 'speculative jurispruence.' I think it is the concept of "Qiyas" that you are referring to. But I recognize that it has been used by Islamic authorities in the past. One such instance is the consumption of alcohol in Islam. The Qur'an only commands prohibition of wine, not alcohol in general, but through Qiyas, they assumed that all alcohol was likewise forbidden.

Is this the concept that you are referring to?

No literally speculative rulings. Imagine jurists sitting around in the 12th century figuring out how to face on the moon when praying. Which were indeed drawn upon when such matters were no longer speculative.

Or something like this:

What do if someone puts pork into the entire water supply?

Rulings not in response to specific cases brought forth by real persons with real concerns to whom those rulings are limited.
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« Reply #632 on: January 29, 2014, 03:10:19 PM »

^What's interesting is that Bashar Al-Assad -the Lion of the Arabs, the Protector of Chris... oh, you know the drill- is Alawite while his wife Asma Akhras is Sunni. The Sunnis traditionally consider Alawites to be non-Muslim, so I'm guessing the Sheikh who married them must have been very liberal regarding inter-sect marriages.

But yes, you are correct. Muslim women marrying non-Muslim men is a big no-no. However, Muslim men can marry non-Muslim women who are of the "people of the book" (I.e. Jews and Christians).

It is much more complex than that on both accounts as most things are in Islamic jurisprudence. A cursory glance at the rulings on the matter would show as in most cases there is no rule which is binding outside time, manner, and place, no matter that is what the so called fundamentalists and the Islamophobes would like.

Really, it just takes some lazy research to see that both idiots like Daniel Pipes and youtube fatwa issuers have no care for what they speak of.

Of course, Islamophobes at once decry Islam for being too ideologically blind and tyrannical while defaming it for being to opportunistic and plastic allowing to be whatever anyone wants it to be. But such are the ranting of idiots.

So, the Consensus (Ijma') of the Islamic scholars, and the Qur'an are not valid sources of Islamic law and jurisprudence in your opinion. Unfortunately for you, the majority of the Islamic population who are knowledgeable about their religion would disagree with you.

We are in the same hermeneutic problem that the Orthodox face, in virtue of what is that consensus of the everyday man found?

And I don't think most Muslims understand a fig, much like the Orthodox, of what how various rulings are made. And given that rulings are distributed which are in opposition, something must be amiss in your desire to create a singular face of Islamic law.

You should get over your desire to paint Islam with a wide brush, if only for the reason that you are going to let down when you find out that the "Patristic Consensus" in Orthodoxy is wildly variable thing as well, allowed to remain in stasis only in light of saying economy a lot.

I recognize that there are varying beliefs in Islam, but there is a general consensus. The reason there are four Madhahib is due to this variance of belief. But nowhere does this variance of belief contradict, in the above cases, the Qur'an and the Consensus view, that Muslim women cannot marry non-Muslim males, or in the case you are referring to above, the doctrine of jihad defined as perpetual warfare to expand the territory of the Islamic State.

The Consensus on those views has not been challenged, only differing views on superficial matters.

Tell that to the numerous Muslim women who have married non-Muslim men. Or nearly every Muslim I know who would reject your notion of "perpetual warfare to expand the territory of the Islamic State". But of course there is the "real Islam" that no one really encounters. They said the same about the Judaism of my family. 

But if you have the specifics on speculative jurisprudence and how it came to be relied upon more in the post-colonial era to redress political concerns never imagined in the rulings drawn upon hundreds of years earlier, I would appreciate it. I do a lot of listening, so I don't have those infos easily available and texts in English and German about such things I've found hard to come by.

So is an Orthodox person who doesn't go to Church, read the Bible or follow the Church Canon Law an Orthodox Christian? Because that's the parallel being made here. Maybe they believe they are Muslims, but Islamic teaching and doctrine doesn't agree with them.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2014, 03:16:54 PM by xOrthodox4Christx » Logged

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« Reply #633 on: January 29, 2014, 03:12:00 PM »

Hey Jason can you tell me more about the Muslim women you met who married non-Muslim men? Were they "in good standing" with their religion, if such a concept exists? Or were they considered "excommunicated" or "apostate"? (if Islam has such a concept; I'm not sure how it works).

When I was in Freshman and Sophomore year in High-School, I knew this one Muslim girl from Yemen who was surprisingly very attractive.

I think she liked me. She was like number 4 or 5 out of about 8, and seemed to have a rather depressing life. She was always talking to me at school, chatting with me on Facebook, and even hugged me a couple times--which I thought was forbidden--I'm not sure if she was violating her religion or not.

Anyhoo, she later moved back to Yemen and got engaged. She may or may not be married now. She said she was waiting till she was 22 or something. She seemed very upset over the whole matter as she kept venting to me through the duration of the preceding days before she left.

Would we have been able to have gotten married or anything if she hadn't left? How does Islamic thought deal with this?
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« Reply #634 on: January 29, 2014, 03:12:31 PM »


Tell that to the numerous Muslim women who have married non-Muslim men. Or nearly every Muslim I know who would reject your notion of "perpetual warfare to expand the territory of the Islamic State". But of course there is the "real Islam" that no one really encounters. They said the same about the Judaism of my family.  


By looking at the number of divorced Christian women, should we say that Yeshua's teachings on divorce are not a part of Christianity or do not reflect reality?  Grin
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« Reply #635 on: January 29, 2014, 03:13:23 PM »

When I was in Freshman and Sophomore year in High-School, I knew this one Muslim girl from Yemen who was surprisingly very attractive.

What about it surprised you?
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« Reply #636 on: January 29, 2014, 03:13:58 PM »


Tell that to the numerous Muslim women who have married non-Muslim men. Or nearly every Muslim I know who would reject your notion of "perpetual warfare to expand the territory of the Islamic State". But of course there is the "real Islam" that no one really encounters. They said the same about the Judaism of my family.  


By looking at the number of divorced Christian women, should we say that Yeshua's teachings on divorce are not a part of Christianity or do not reflect reality?  Grin

Yes

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« Reply #637 on: January 29, 2014, 03:15:22 PM »

For instance, I would ask how many youtube and other idiotic rulings are based on speculative previous rulings?

Sorry, I don't do poppy and use Arabic or google mine for info like you. Do you know what speculative jurisprudence is? And how throughout most of the history its rulings were understood? Do you know when and who began to rely on speculative jurisprudence to make actual rulings?

If so, summarize it for me, as I am bit vague on it and would like some crib notes. Thanks.

I don't know the history of 'speculative jurispruence.' I think it is the concept of "Qiyas" that you are referring to. But I recognize that it has been used by Islamic authorities in the past. One such instance is the consumption of alcohol in Islam. The Qur'an only commands prohibition of wine, not alcohol in general, but through Qiyas, they assumed that all alcohol was likewise forbidden.

Is this the concept that you are referring to?

No literally speculative rulings. Imagine jurists sitting around in the 12th century figuring out how to face on the moon when praying. Which were indeed drawn upon when such matters were no longer speculative.

Or something like this:

What do if someone puts pork into the entire water supply?

Rulings not in response to specific cases brought forth by real persons with real concerns to whom those rulings are limited.

Yes, this seems to be Qiyas you are talking about. Qiyas is when the Qur'an or Sunnah doesn't mention a specific incident, so reasoning is used to determine a similar instance through which a ruling can be derived.

For example, the Qur'an says nothing about nuclear weapons. But I have read a fatwa by an al-Qaeda cleric who used Qur'an 8:60 which reads: "Prepare against them whatever you can of power." He focused on the "whatever you can" bit to justify the usage of nuclear weapons. Even though, it could be forbidden in Islam due to the prohibition of killing women and children by the Prophet.
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« Reply #638 on: January 29, 2014, 03:15:35 PM »

^What's interesting is that Bashar Al-Assad -the Lion of the Arabs, the Protector of Chris... oh, you know the drill- is Alawite while his wife Asma Akhras is Sunni. The Sunnis traditionally consider Alawites to be non-Muslim, so I'm guessing the Sheikh who married them must have been very liberal regarding inter-sect marriages.

But yes, you are correct. Muslim women marrying non-Muslim men is a big no-no. However, Muslim men can marry non-Muslim women who are of the "people of the book" (I.e. Jews and Christians).

It is much more complex than that on both accounts as most things are in Islamic jurisprudence. A cursory glance at the rulings on the matter would show as in most cases there is no rule which is binding outside time, manner, and place, no matter that is what the so called fundamentalists and the Islamophobes would like.

Really, it just takes some lazy research to see that both idiots like Daniel Pipes and youtube fatwa issuers have no care for what they speak of.

Of course, Islamophobes at once decry Islam for being too ideologically blind and tyrannical while defaming it for being to opportunistic and plastic allowing to be whatever anyone wants it to be. But such are the ranting of idiots.

So, the Consensus (Ijma') of the Islamic scholars, and the Qur'an are not valid sources of Islamic law and jurisprudence in your opinion. Unfortunately for you, the majority of the Islamic population who are knowledgeable about their religion would disagree with you.

We are in the same hermeneutic problem that the Orthodox face, in virtue of what is that consensus of the everyday man found?

And I don't think most Muslims understand a fig, much like the Orthodox, of what how various rulings are made. And given that rulings are distributed which are in opposition, something must be amiss in your desire to create a singular face of Islamic law.

You should get over your desire to paint Islam with a wide brush, if only for the reason that you are going to let down when you find out that the "Patristic Consensus" in Orthodoxy is wildly variable thing as well, allowed to remain in stasis only in light of saying economy a lot.

I recognize that there are varying beliefs in Islam, but there is a general consensus. The reason there are four Madhahib is due to this variance of belief. But nowhere does this variance of belief contradict, in the above cases, the Qur'an and the Consensus view, that Muslim women cannot marry non-Muslim males, or in the case you are referring to above, the doctrine of jihad defined as perpetual warfare to expand the territory of the Islamic State.

The Consensus on those views has not been challenged, only differing views on superficial matters.

Tell that to the numerous Muslim women who have married non-Muslim men. Or nearly every Muslim I know who would reject your notion of "perpetual warfare to expand the territory of the Islamic State". But of course there is the "real Islam" that no one really encounters. They said the same about the Judaism of my family.  

But if you have the specifics on speculative jurisprudence and how it came to be relied upon more in the post-colonial era to redress political concerns never imagined in the rulings drawn upon hundreds of years earlier, I would appreciate it. I do a lot of listening, so I don't have those infos easily available and texts in English and German about such things I've found hard to come by.

So is an Orthodox person is doesn't go to Church, read the Bible and follow the Church Canon Law an Orthodox Christian? Because that's the parallel being made here. Maybe they believe they are Muslims, but Islamic teaching and doctrine doesn't agree with them.

Most Orthodox don't read the Bible, rarely attend liturgy, probably have never heard of canon law, so you tell me.

Orthodoxy for most is an ethos as augustin is kind to remind us of, not a subjective checking off affirmation of belief and behaviors. Perhaps for converts, but converts shouldn't think their experience is that of most of those who kept the doors open for them.

Heck, most converts are just in it for marriage especially in the Greek parishes I've been to in America. So really we are talking about a small percentage of person within the larger body we call the Church.

For mostly better and rarely worse, your typical Orthodox isn't your typical oc.netter.
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« Reply #639 on: January 29, 2014, 03:16:23 PM »

When I was in Freshman and Sophomore year in High-School, I knew this one Muslim girl from Yemen who was surprisingly very attractive.

What about it surprised you?

Well she looked very "Westernized" which I found unusual for an immigrant. She wore makeup, shaved, and seemed to take great care of her hair (which I saw a couple times although she was usually wearing the hijab). To be fair however, I don't know much about Yemen's culture. Maybe this stuff is common over there.
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« Reply #640 on: January 29, 2014, 03:18:28 PM »

For instance, I would ask how many youtube and other idiotic rulings are based on speculative previous rulings?

Sorry, I don't do poppy and use Arabic or google mine for info like you. Do you know what speculative jurisprudence is? And how throughout most of the history its rulings were understood? Do you know when and who began to rely on speculative jurisprudence to make actual rulings?

If so, summarize it for me, as I am bit vague on it and would like some crib notes. Thanks.

I don't know the history of 'speculative jurispruence.' I think it is the concept of "Qiyas" that you are referring to. But I recognize that it has been used by Islamic authorities in the past. One such instance is the consumption of alcohol in Islam. The Qur'an only commands prohibition of wine, not alcohol in general, but through Qiyas, they assumed that all alcohol was likewise forbidden.

Is this the concept that you are referring to?

No literally speculative rulings. Imagine jurists sitting around in the 12th century figuring out how to face on the moon when praying. Which were indeed drawn upon when such matters were no longer speculative.

Or something like this:

What do if someone puts pork into the entire water supply?

Rulings not in response to specific cases brought forth by real persons with real concerns to whom those rulings are limited.

Yes, this seems to be Qiyas you are talking about. Qiyas is when the Qur'an or Sunnah doesn't mention a specific incident, so reasoning is used to determine a similar instance through which a ruling can be derived.

For example, the Qur'an says nothing about nuclear weapons. But I have read a fatwa by an al-Qaeda cleric who used Qur'an 8:60 which reads: "Prepare against them whatever you can of power." He focused on the "whatever you can" bit to justify the usage of nuclear weapons.

No. You are talking about the interpretation of rulings and other texts in light of current or emergent time, manner, and place. I am speaking to rule without recourse to any foreseeable application of the ruling. Speculative. I don't know Arabic, but I know English rather well. Speculative is the word that is matters here.

I'll find out a leader of a such a school and get back to you, maybe that will help. It might take a few days.
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« Reply #641 on: January 29, 2014, 03:19:32 PM »

When I was in Freshman and Sophomore year in High-School, I knew this one Muslim girl from Yemen who was surprisingly very attractive.

What about it surprised you?

Mor, what are we gonna do when he leaves the nest?
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« Reply #642 on: January 29, 2014, 03:22:52 PM »

Heck, most converts are just in it for marriage especially in the Greek parishes I've been to in America. So really we are talking about a small percentage of person within the larger body we call the Church.


and why are you in the Church? to enlighten us with your logical fallacies and prejudices?  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #643 on: January 29, 2014, 03:27:30 PM »

Quote
Hey Jason can you tell me more about the Muslim women you met who married non-Muslim men? Were they "in good standing" with their religion, if such a concept exists? Or were they considered "excommunicated" or "apostate"? (if Islam has such a concept; I'm not sure how it works).

Yes. There are 'states' of purity, unbelief and Fisq (PDF) that determines how "good standing" one is in.

To be "excommunicated' is to be made Kafir, it's called Takfir.

In fact, Patriarch John X made a comment about "Takfiris" recently.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2014, 03:29:44 PM by xOrthodox4Christx » Logged

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« Reply #644 on: January 29, 2014, 03:29:11 PM »

Heck, most converts are just in it for marriage especially in the Greek parishes I've been to in America. So really we are talking about a small percentage of person within the larger body we call the Church.


and why are you in the Church? to enlighten us with your logical fallacies and prejudices?  Roll Eyes

I think nearly everyone here agrees oc.net doesn't reflect the Orthodox Church in any real sense. How could it, since pretty much anyone can post here even those who claim membership to Christian bodies not in communion with it? You have everyone from Atheists to RCs to Oriental Christians to True Orthodox weighing in to lesser and greater degree here, including people who think Arabic speaking Orthodox are committing idolatry by worshiping in a manner which thousands of year old.

There was this whole self-mocking Hyperdox Herman thing you might've missed.

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« Reply #645 on: January 29, 2014, 03:32:47 PM »

Hey Jason can you tell me more about the Muslim women you met who married non-Muslim men? Were they "in good standing" with their religion, if such a concept exists? Or were they considered "excommunicated" or "apostate"? (if Islam has such a concept; I'm not sure how it works).

They reminded me of nearly every Orthodox or RC girl I dated. "Lapsed sorta", culturally religious, etc. The were not stoned, not allowed in the mosque or even shunned. It was NBD.

Of course this is not to say it is the norm, common, or anything, but to paint something like Islam as something monolithic is to appeal to the stupidities of some of its most repugnant advocates and detractors.
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« Reply #646 on: January 29, 2014, 03:44:10 PM »

Well she looked very "Westernized" which I found unusual for an immigrant. She wore makeup, shaved, and seemed to take great care of her hair (which I saw a couple times although she was usually wearing the hijab). To be fair however, I don't know much about Yemen's culture. Maybe this stuff is common over there.

We're not all wild animals, James. 
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« Reply #647 on: January 29, 2014, 03:45:55 PM »

When I was in Freshman and Sophomore year in High-School, I knew this one Muslim girl from Yemen who was surprisingly very attractive.

What about it surprised you?

Mor, what are we gonna do when he leaves the nest?

Whatever it is, I hope a hot tub is not involved. 
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« Reply #648 on: January 29, 2014, 03:48:30 PM »

Well she looked very "Westernized" which I found unusual for an immigrant. She wore makeup, shaved, and seemed to take great care of her hair (which I saw a couple times although she was usually wearing the hijab). To be fair however, I don't know much about Yemen's culture. Maybe this stuff is common over there.

We're not all wild animals, James. 

We? You were born outside of the US?
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« Reply #649 on: January 29, 2014, 04:08:22 PM »

Well she looked very "Westernized" which I found unusual for an immigrant. She wore makeup, shaved, and seemed to take great care of her hair (which I saw a couple times although she was usually wearing the hijab). To be fair however, I don't know much about Yemen's culture. Maybe this stuff is common over there.

We're not all wild animals, James. 

We? You were born outside of the US?

For some things, being born in the US is not enough. 
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« Reply #650 on: January 30, 2014, 11:46:30 PM »

Well she looked very "Westernized" which I found unusual for an immigrant. She wore makeup, shaved, and seemed to take great care of her hair (which I saw a couple times although she was usually wearing the hijab). To be fair however, I don't know much about Yemen's culture. Maybe this stuff is common over there.

Maybe her family came from the port of Aden or thereabouts. That city, before 1990, was the capital of South Yemen, a clearly communist state--officially known as the People's Democratic Republic of Yemen.
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« Reply #651 on: January 31, 2014, 07:06:50 PM »

Well she looked very "Westernized" which I found unusual for an immigrant. She wore makeup, shaved, and seemed to take great care of her hair (which I saw a couple times although she was usually wearing the hijab). To be fair however, I don't know much about Yemen's culture. Maybe this stuff is common over there.

We're not all wild animals, James. 

We? You were born outside of the US?

For some things, being born in the US is not enough. 
Oh brother, another victim. Roll Eyes
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Sancte Michael Archangele, defende nos in proelio, contra nequitiam et insidias diaboli esto praesidium.
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