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Author Topic: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...  (Read 32365 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #630 on: January 29, 2014, 03:04:42 PM »

^What's interesting is that Bashar Al-Assad -the Lion of the Arabs, the Protector of Chris... oh, you know the drill- is Alawite while his wife Asma Akhras is Sunni. The Sunnis traditionally consider Alawites to be non-Muslim, so I'm guessing the Sheikh who married them must have been very liberal regarding inter-sect marriages.

But yes, you are correct. Muslim women marrying non-Muslim men is a big no-no. However, Muslim men can marry non-Muslim women who are of the "people of the book" (I.e. Jews and Christians).

It is much more complex than that on both accounts as most things are in Islamic jurisprudence. A cursory glance at the rulings on the matter would show as in most cases there is no rule which is binding outside time, manner, and place, no matter that is what the so called fundamentalists and the Islamophobes would like.

Really, it just takes some lazy research to see that both idiots like Daniel Pipes and youtube fatwa issuers have no care for what they speak of.

Of course, Islamophobes at once decry Islam for being too ideologically blind and tyrannical while defaming it for being to opportunistic and plastic allowing to be whatever anyone wants it to be. But such are the ranting of idiots.

So, the Consensus (Ijma') of the Islamic scholars, and the Qur'an are not valid sources of Islamic law and jurisprudence in your opinion. Unfortunately for you, the majority of the Islamic population who are knowledgeable about their religion would disagree with you.

We are in the same hermeneutic problem that the Orthodox face, in virtue of what is that consensus of the everyday man found?

And I don't think most Muslims understand a fig, much like the Orthodox, of what how various rulings are made. And given that rulings are distributed which are in opposition, something must be amiss in your desire to create a singular face of Islamic law.

You should get over your desire to paint Islam with a wide brush, if only for the reason that you are going to let down when you find out that the "Patristic Consensus" in Orthodoxy is wildly variable thing as well, allowed to remain in stasis only in light of saying economy a lot.

I recognize that there are varying beliefs in Islam, but there is a general consensus. The reason there are four Madhahib is due to this variance of belief. But nowhere does this variance of belief contradict, in the above cases, the Qur'an and the Consensus view, that Muslim women cannot marry non-Muslim males, or in the case you are referring to above, the doctrine of jihad defined as perpetual warfare to expand the territory of the Islamic State.

The Consensus on those views has not been challenged, only differing views on superficial matters.

Tell that to the numerous Muslim women who have married non-Muslim men. Or nearly every Muslim I know who would reject your notion of "perpetual warfare to expand the territory of the Islamic State". But of course there is the "real Islam" that no one really encounters. They said the same about the Judaism of my family.  

But if you have the specifics on speculative jurisprudence and how it came to be relied upon more in the post-colonial era to redress political concerns never imagined in the rulings drawn upon hundreds of years earlier, I would appreciate it. I do a lot of listening, so I don't have those infos easily available and texts in English and German about such things I've found hard to come by.
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« Reply #631 on: January 29, 2014, 03:08:17 PM »

For instance, I would ask how many youtube and other idiotic rulings are based on speculative previous rulings?

Sorry, I don't do poppy and use Arabic or google mine for info like you. Do you know what speculative jurisprudence is? And how throughout most of the history its rulings were understood? Do you know when and who began to rely on speculative jurisprudence to make actual rulings?

If so, summarize it for me, as I am bit vague on it and would like some crib notes. Thanks.

I don't know the history of 'speculative jurispruence.' I think it is the concept of "Qiyas" that you are referring to. But I recognize that it has been used by Islamic authorities in the past. One such instance is the consumption of alcohol in Islam. The Qur'an only commands prohibition of wine, not alcohol in general, but through Qiyas, they assumed that all alcohol was likewise forbidden.

Is this the concept that you are referring to?

No literally speculative rulings. Imagine jurists sitting around in the 12th century figuring out how to face on the moon when praying. Which were indeed drawn upon when such matters were no longer speculative.

Or something like this:

What do if someone puts pork into the entire water supply?

Rulings not in response to specific cases brought forth by real persons with real concerns to whom those rulings are limited.
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« Reply #632 on: January 29, 2014, 03:10:19 PM »

^What's interesting is that Bashar Al-Assad -the Lion of the Arabs, the Protector of Chris... oh, you know the drill- is Alawite while his wife Asma Akhras is Sunni. The Sunnis traditionally consider Alawites to be non-Muslim, so I'm guessing the Sheikh who married them must have been very liberal regarding inter-sect marriages.

But yes, you are correct. Muslim women marrying non-Muslim men is a big no-no. However, Muslim men can marry non-Muslim women who are of the "people of the book" (I.e. Jews and Christians).

It is much more complex than that on both accounts as most things are in Islamic jurisprudence. A cursory glance at the rulings on the matter would show as in most cases there is no rule which is binding outside time, manner, and place, no matter that is what the so called fundamentalists and the Islamophobes would like.

Really, it just takes some lazy research to see that both idiots like Daniel Pipes and youtube fatwa issuers have no care for what they speak of.

Of course, Islamophobes at once decry Islam for being too ideologically blind and tyrannical while defaming it for being to opportunistic and plastic allowing to be whatever anyone wants it to be. But such are the ranting of idiots.

So, the Consensus (Ijma') of the Islamic scholars, and the Qur'an are not valid sources of Islamic law and jurisprudence in your opinion. Unfortunately for you, the majority of the Islamic population who are knowledgeable about their religion would disagree with you.

We are in the same hermeneutic problem that the Orthodox face, in virtue of what is that consensus of the everyday man found?

And I don't think most Muslims understand a fig, much like the Orthodox, of what how various rulings are made. And given that rulings are distributed which are in opposition, something must be amiss in your desire to create a singular face of Islamic law.

You should get over your desire to paint Islam with a wide brush, if only for the reason that you are going to let down when you find out that the "Patristic Consensus" in Orthodoxy is wildly variable thing as well, allowed to remain in stasis only in light of saying economy a lot.

I recognize that there are varying beliefs in Islam, but there is a general consensus. The reason there are four Madhahib is due to this variance of belief. But nowhere does this variance of belief contradict, in the above cases, the Qur'an and the Consensus view, that Muslim women cannot marry non-Muslim males, or in the case you are referring to above, the doctrine of jihad defined as perpetual warfare to expand the territory of the Islamic State.

The Consensus on those views has not been challenged, only differing views on superficial matters.

Tell that to the numerous Muslim women who have married non-Muslim men. Or nearly every Muslim I know who would reject your notion of "perpetual warfare to expand the territory of the Islamic State". But of course there is the "real Islam" that no one really encounters. They said the same about the Judaism of my family. 

But if you have the specifics on speculative jurisprudence and how it came to be relied upon more in the post-colonial era to redress political concerns never imagined in the rulings drawn upon hundreds of years earlier, I would appreciate it. I do a lot of listening, so I don't have those infos easily available and texts in English and German about such things I've found hard to come by.

So is an Orthodox person who doesn't go to Church, read the Bible or follow the Church Canon Law an Orthodox Christian? Because that's the parallel being made here. Maybe they believe they are Muslims, but Islamic teaching and doctrine doesn't agree with them.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2014, 03:16:54 PM by xOrthodox4Christx » Logged

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« Reply #633 on: January 29, 2014, 03:12:00 PM »

Hey Jason can you tell me more about the Muslim women you met who married non-Muslim men? Were they "in good standing" with their religion, if such a concept exists? Or were they considered "excommunicated" or "apostate"? (if Islam has such a concept; I'm not sure how it works).

When I was in Freshman and Sophomore year in High-School, I knew this one Muslim girl from Yemen who was surprisingly very attractive.

I think she liked me. She was like number 4 or 5 out of about 8, and seemed to have a rather depressing life. She was always talking to me at school, chatting with me on Facebook, and even hugged me a couple times--which I thought was forbidden--I'm not sure if she was violating her religion or not.

Anyhoo, she later moved back to Yemen and got engaged. She may or may not be married now. She said she was waiting till she was 22 or something. She seemed very upset over the whole matter as she kept venting to me through the duration of the preceding days before she left.

Would we have been able to have gotten married or anything if she hadn't left? How does Islamic thought deal with this?
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« Reply #634 on: January 29, 2014, 03:12:31 PM »


Tell that to the numerous Muslim women who have married non-Muslim men. Or nearly every Muslim I know who would reject your notion of "perpetual warfare to expand the territory of the Islamic State". But of course there is the "real Islam" that no one really encounters. They said the same about the Judaism of my family.  


By looking at the number of divorced Christian women, should we say that Yeshua's teachings on divorce are not a part of Christianity or do not reflect reality?  Grin
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« Reply #635 on: January 29, 2014, 03:13:23 PM »

When I was in Freshman and Sophomore year in High-School, I knew this one Muslim girl from Yemen who was surprisingly very attractive.

What about it surprised you?
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« Reply #636 on: January 29, 2014, 03:13:58 PM »


Tell that to the numerous Muslim women who have married non-Muslim men. Or nearly every Muslim I know who would reject your notion of "perpetual warfare to expand the territory of the Islamic State". But of course there is the "real Islam" that no one really encounters. They said the same about the Judaism of my family.  


By looking at the number of divorced Christian women, should we say that Yeshua's teachings on divorce are not a part of Christianity or do not reflect reality?  Grin

Yes

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« Reply #637 on: January 29, 2014, 03:15:22 PM »

For instance, I would ask how many youtube and other idiotic rulings are based on speculative previous rulings?

Sorry, I don't do poppy and use Arabic or google mine for info like you. Do you know what speculative jurisprudence is? And how throughout most of the history its rulings were understood? Do you know when and who began to rely on speculative jurisprudence to make actual rulings?

If so, summarize it for me, as I am bit vague on it and would like some crib notes. Thanks.

I don't know the history of 'speculative jurispruence.' I think it is the concept of "Qiyas" that you are referring to. But I recognize that it has been used by Islamic authorities in the past. One such instance is the consumption of alcohol in Islam. The Qur'an only commands prohibition of wine, not alcohol in general, but through Qiyas, they assumed that all alcohol was likewise forbidden.

Is this the concept that you are referring to?

No literally speculative rulings. Imagine jurists sitting around in the 12th century figuring out how to face on the moon when praying. Which were indeed drawn upon when such matters were no longer speculative.

Or something like this:

What do if someone puts pork into the entire water supply?

Rulings not in response to specific cases brought forth by real persons with real concerns to whom those rulings are limited.

Yes, this seems to be Qiyas you are talking about. Qiyas is when the Qur'an or Sunnah doesn't mention a specific incident, so reasoning is used to determine a similar instance through which a ruling can be derived.

For example, the Qur'an says nothing about nuclear weapons. But I have read a fatwa by an al-Qaeda cleric who used Qur'an 8:60 which reads: "Prepare against them whatever you can of power." He focused on the "whatever you can" bit to justify the usage of nuclear weapons. Even though, it could be forbidden in Islam due to the prohibition of killing women and children by the Prophet.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2014, 03:16:20 PM by xOrthodox4Christx » Logged

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« Reply #638 on: January 29, 2014, 03:15:35 PM »

^What's interesting is that Bashar Al-Assad -the Lion of the Arabs, the Protector of Chris... oh, you know the drill- is Alawite while his wife Asma Akhras is Sunni. The Sunnis traditionally consider Alawites to be non-Muslim, so I'm guessing the Sheikh who married them must have been very liberal regarding inter-sect marriages.

But yes, you are correct. Muslim women marrying non-Muslim men is a big no-no. However, Muslim men can marry non-Muslim women who are of the "people of the book" (I.e. Jews and Christians).

It is much more complex than that on both accounts as most things are in Islamic jurisprudence. A cursory glance at the rulings on the matter would show as in most cases there is no rule which is binding outside time, manner, and place, no matter that is what the so called fundamentalists and the Islamophobes would like.

Really, it just takes some lazy research to see that both idiots like Daniel Pipes and youtube fatwa issuers have no care for what they speak of.

Of course, Islamophobes at once decry Islam for being too ideologically blind and tyrannical while defaming it for being to opportunistic and plastic allowing to be whatever anyone wants it to be. But such are the ranting of idiots.

So, the Consensus (Ijma') of the Islamic scholars, and the Qur'an are not valid sources of Islamic law and jurisprudence in your opinion. Unfortunately for you, the majority of the Islamic population who are knowledgeable about their religion would disagree with you.

We are in the same hermeneutic problem that the Orthodox face, in virtue of what is that consensus of the everyday man found?

And I don't think most Muslims understand a fig, much like the Orthodox, of what how various rulings are made. And given that rulings are distributed which are in opposition, something must be amiss in your desire to create a singular face of Islamic law.

You should get over your desire to paint Islam with a wide brush, if only for the reason that you are going to let down when you find out that the "Patristic Consensus" in Orthodoxy is wildly variable thing as well, allowed to remain in stasis only in light of saying economy a lot.

I recognize that there are varying beliefs in Islam, but there is a general consensus. The reason there are four Madhahib is due to this variance of belief. But nowhere does this variance of belief contradict, in the above cases, the Qur'an and the Consensus view, that Muslim women cannot marry non-Muslim males, or in the case you are referring to above, the doctrine of jihad defined as perpetual warfare to expand the territory of the Islamic State.

The Consensus on those views has not been challenged, only differing views on superficial matters.

Tell that to the numerous Muslim women who have married non-Muslim men. Or nearly every Muslim I know who would reject your notion of "perpetual warfare to expand the territory of the Islamic State". But of course there is the "real Islam" that no one really encounters. They said the same about the Judaism of my family.  

But if you have the specifics on speculative jurisprudence and how it came to be relied upon more in the post-colonial era to redress political concerns never imagined in the rulings drawn upon hundreds of years earlier, I would appreciate it. I do a lot of listening, so I don't have those infos easily available and texts in English and German about such things I've found hard to come by.

So is an Orthodox person is doesn't go to Church, read the Bible and follow the Church Canon Law an Orthodox Christian? Because that's the parallel being made here. Maybe they believe they are Muslims, but Islamic teaching and doctrine doesn't agree with them.

Most Orthodox don't read the Bible, rarely attend liturgy, probably have never heard of canon law, so you tell me.

Orthodoxy for most is an ethos as augustin is kind to remind us of, not a subjective checking off affirmation of belief and behaviors. Perhaps for converts, but converts shouldn't think their experience is that of most of those who kept the doors open for them.

Heck, most converts are just in it for marriage especially in the Greek parishes I've been to in America. So really we are talking about a small percentage of person within the larger body we call the Church.

For mostly better and rarely worse, your typical Orthodox isn't your typical oc.netter.
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« Reply #639 on: January 29, 2014, 03:16:23 PM »

When I was in Freshman and Sophomore year in High-School, I knew this one Muslim girl from Yemen who was surprisingly very attractive.

What about it surprised you?

Well she looked very "Westernized" which I found unusual for an immigrant. She wore makeup, shaved, and seemed to take great care of her hair (which I saw a couple times although she was usually wearing the hijab). To be fair however, I don't know much about Yemen's culture. Maybe this stuff is common over there.
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« Reply #640 on: January 29, 2014, 03:18:28 PM »

For instance, I would ask how many youtube and other idiotic rulings are based on speculative previous rulings?

Sorry, I don't do poppy and use Arabic or google mine for info like you. Do you know what speculative jurisprudence is? And how throughout most of the history its rulings were understood? Do you know when and who began to rely on speculative jurisprudence to make actual rulings?

If so, summarize it for me, as I am bit vague on it and would like some crib notes. Thanks.

I don't know the history of 'speculative jurispruence.' I think it is the concept of "Qiyas" that you are referring to. But I recognize that it has been used by Islamic authorities in the past. One such instance is the consumption of alcohol in Islam. The Qur'an only commands prohibition of wine, not alcohol in general, but through Qiyas, they assumed that all alcohol was likewise forbidden.

Is this the concept that you are referring to?

No literally speculative rulings. Imagine jurists sitting around in the 12th century figuring out how to face on the moon when praying. Which were indeed drawn upon when such matters were no longer speculative.

Or something like this:

What do if someone puts pork into the entire water supply?

Rulings not in response to specific cases brought forth by real persons with real concerns to whom those rulings are limited.

Yes, this seems to be Qiyas you are talking about. Qiyas is when the Qur'an or Sunnah doesn't mention a specific incident, so reasoning is used to determine a similar instance through which a ruling can be derived.

For example, the Qur'an says nothing about nuclear weapons. But I have read a fatwa by an al-Qaeda cleric who used Qur'an 8:60 which reads: "Prepare against them whatever you can of power." He focused on the "whatever you can" bit to justify the usage of nuclear weapons.

No. You are talking about the interpretation of rulings and other texts in light of current or emergent time, manner, and place. I am speaking to rule without recourse to any foreseeable application of the ruling. Speculative. I don't know Arabic, but I know English rather well. Speculative is the word that is matters here.

I'll find out a leader of a such a school and get back to you, maybe that will help. It might take a few days.
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« Reply #641 on: January 29, 2014, 03:19:32 PM »

When I was in Freshman and Sophomore year in High-School, I knew this one Muslim girl from Yemen who was surprisingly very attractive.

What about it surprised you?

Mor, what are we gonna do when he leaves the nest?
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« Reply #642 on: January 29, 2014, 03:22:52 PM »

Heck, most converts are just in it for marriage especially in the Greek parishes I've been to in America. So really we are talking about a small percentage of person within the larger body we call the Church.


and why are you in the Church? to enlighten us with your logical fallacies and prejudices?  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #643 on: January 29, 2014, 03:27:30 PM »

Quote
Hey Jason can you tell me more about the Muslim women you met who married non-Muslim men? Were they "in good standing" with their religion, if such a concept exists? Or were they considered "excommunicated" or "apostate"? (if Islam has such a concept; I'm not sure how it works).

Yes. There are 'states' of purity, unbelief and Fisq (PDF) that determines how "good standing" one is in.

To be "excommunicated' is to be made Kafir, it's called Takfir.

In fact, Patriarch John X made a comment about "Takfiris" recently.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2014, 03:29:44 PM by xOrthodox4Christx » Logged

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« Reply #644 on: January 29, 2014, 03:29:11 PM »

Heck, most converts are just in it for marriage especially in the Greek parishes I've been to in America. So really we are talking about a small percentage of person within the larger body we call the Church.


and why are you in the Church? to enlighten us with your logical fallacies and prejudices?  Roll Eyes

I think nearly everyone here agrees oc.net doesn't reflect the Orthodox Church in any real sense. How could it, since pretty much anyone can post here even those who claim membership to Christian bodies not in communion with it? You have everyone from Atheists to RCs to Oriental Christians to True Orthodox weighing in to lesser and greater degree here, including people who think Arabic speaking Orthodox are committing idolatry by worshiping in a manner which thousands of year old.

There was this whole self-mocking Hyperdox Herman thing you might've missed.

« Last Edit: January 29, 2014, 03:33:18 PM by orthonorm » Logged

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« Reply #645 on: January 29, 2014, 03:32:47 PM »

Hey Jason can you tell me more about the Muslim women you met who married non-Muslim men? Were they "in good standing" with their religion, if such a concept exists? Or were they considered "excommunicated" or "apostate"? (if Islam has such a concept; I'm not sure how it works).

They reminded me of nearly every Orthodox or RC girl I dated. "Lapsed sorta", culturally religious, etc. The were not stoned, not allowed in the mosque or even shunned. It was NBD.

Of course this is not to say it is the norm, common, or anything, but to paint something like Islam as something monolithic is to appeal to the stupidities of some of its most repugnant advocates and detractors.
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« Reply #646 on: January 29, 2014, 03:44:10 PM »

Well she looked very "Westernized" which I found unusual for an immigrant. She wore makeup, shaved, and seemed to take great care of her hair (which I saw a couple times although she was usually wearing the hijab). To be fair however, I don't know much about Yemen's culture. Maybe this stuff is common over there.

We're not all wild animals, James. 
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« Reply #647 on: January 29, 2014, 03:45:55 PM »

When I was in Freshman and Sophomore year in High-School, I knew this one Muslim girl from Yemen who was surprisingly very attractive.

What about it surprised you?

Mor, what are we gonna do when he leaves the nest?

Whatever it is, I hope a hot tub is not involved. 
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« Reply #648 on: January 29, 2014, 03:48:30 PM »

Well she looked very "Westernized" which I found unusual for an immigrant. She wore makeup, shaved, and seemed to take great care of her hair (which I saw a couple times although she was usually wearing the hijab). To be fair however, I don't know much about Yemen's culture. Maybe this stuff is common over there.

We're not all wild animals, James. 

We? You were born outside of the US?
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« Reply #649 on: January 29, 2014, 04:08:22 PM »

Well she looked very "Westernized" which I found unusual for an immigrant. She wore makeup, shaved, and seemed to take great care of her hair (which I saw a couple times although she was usually wearing the hijab). To be fair however, I don't know much about Yemen's culture. Maybe this stuff is common over there.

We're not all wild animals, James. 

We? You were born outside of the US?

For some things, being born in the US is not enough. 
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« Reply #650 on: January 30, 2014, 11:46:30 PM »

Well she looked very "Westernized" which I found unusual for an immigrant. She wore makeup, shaved, and seemed to take great care of her hair (which I saw a couple times although she was usually wearing the hijab). To be fair however, I don't know much about Yemen's culture. Maybe this stuff is common over there.

Maybe her family came from the port of Aden or thereabouts. That city, before 1990, was the capital of South Yemen, a clearly communist state--officially known as the People's Democratic Republic of Yemen.
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« Reply #651 on: January 31, 2014, 07:06:50 PM »

Well she looked very "Westernized" which I found unusual for an immigrant. She wore makeup, shaved, and seemed to take great care of her hair (which I saw a couple times although she was usually wearing the hijab). To be fair however, I don't know much about Yemen's culture. Maybe this stuff is common over there.

We're not all wild animals, James. 

We? You were born outside of the US?

For some things, being born in the US is not enough. 
Oh brother, another victim. Roll Eyes
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« Reply #652 on: April 30, 2014, 03:48:16 PM »

I saw some pictures about Indian Sufis gouging their eyeballs out as a part of a pilgrimage.  Lips Sealed

What's the background and/or reason and/or pleasegivemeatleastsomething for this practice? And no, "Sufis are not real Muslims" is not an answer. It's an insult, not an answer.
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« Reply #653 on: April 30, 2014, 03:59:07 PM »

I saw some pictures about Indian Sufis gouging their eyeballs out as a part of a pilgrimage.  Lips Sealed
....
Were these pictures on Instagram, mayhaps?
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« Reply #654 on: April 30, 2014, 04:15:50 PM »

I saw some pictures about Indian Sufis gouging their eyeballs out as a part of a pilgrimage.  Lips Sealed
....
Were these pictures on Instagram, mayhaps?

Nope. On the website of Helsingin Sanomat. That is, a Finnish newspaper.
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« Reply #655 on: May 07, 2014, 08:59:03 PM »

Are Muslim females, in any instances, allowed to marry a non-Muslim man? Are there any sects that would even consider allowing this? I've heard talk--not sure how accurate it is--that some Sufi (sp?) sects allow it in some instances.

If the answer is no in all regards, then are there any loopholes whatsoever where a Muslim female can live with a non-Muslim man like husband and wife without being guilty of anything according to her Muslim faith?

No. All sects prohibit this, unless the male is already in the process of conversion to Islam. If the male eventually converts, then the union is acceptable until then.

Quote from: Al-Muntaqa min Fataawa al-Shaykh Saalih al-Fawzaan (3/174)
Question: What is Islam’s attitude towards a Muslim woman who marries a non-Muslim man, because she needed to do that, i.e. she was forced into this marriage?

Answer: Praise be to Allaah.

It is not permissible for a Muslim woman to marry a kaafir, and the marriage is not valid.

Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“And give not (your daughters) in marriage to Al‑Mushrikoon[polytheists] till they believe (in Allaah Alone)”

[al-Baqarah 2:221]

“O you who believe! When believing women come to you as emigrants, examine them; Allaah knows best as to their Faith, then if you ascertain that they are true believers send them not back to the disbelievers. They are not lawful (wives) for the disbelievers nor are the disbelievers lawful (husbands) for them”

[al-Mutahanah 60:10].

The fact that she was forced into that does not justify her giving in and surrendering to this marriage. The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “There is no obedience to any created being if it involves disobedience to the Creator.”

This marriage is regarded as invalid, and intercourse with him is zina (fornication, adultery).

Source

I do however wonder if Shi'ite temporary (Mut'ah) marriages would be permissible in this case. I've heard on ShiaChat that once a Shi'a male and a non-Muslim female were allowed.

See Also:
Sh. Muhammad Salah
SunniPath

A Shia man can only marry a non-Muslim woman for mut'ah. Permanent marriage with non-Muslims is forbidden.
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« Reply #656 on: May 13, 2014, 05:28:11 PM »

I saw some pictures about Indian Sufis gouging their eyeballs out as a part of a pilgrimage.  Lips Sealed

What's the background and/or reason and/or pleasegivemeatleastsomething for this practice? And no, "Sufis are not real Muslims" is not an answer. It's an insult, not an answer.

I don't know about these indian sufis....... but there are a lot of crazy people out there claiming to be be part of a certain group.  They don't represent a whole group based on their behavior.

If you're interested in learning about Sufism, maybe see some of the lectures of Sheikh Nazim and his students Sheikh Kabbani:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xEDWxoPKQIM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WXT-xuxySWc

Sheikh Nazim and his teacher Sheikh Daghestani: 
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« Reply #657 on: May 13, 2014, 05:39:03 PM »

If you're interested in learning about Sufism, maybe see some of the lectures of Sheikh Nazim and his students Sheikh Kabbani:

I recently bought a book about Sufism. It's in Finnish and written by two non-Muslims but as it intended as a book for university studies I'm looking forward to it.
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« Reply #658 on: June 09, 2014, 02:19:59 AM »

If you're interested in learning about Sufism, maybe see some of the lectures of Sheikh Nazim and his students Sheikh Kabbani:

I recently bought a book about Sufism. It's in Finnish and written by two non-Muslims but as it intended as a book for university studies I'm looking forward to it.

check it out Byzantine-Sufi Chant

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ko7yKhjsUPA

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« Reply #659 on: November 20, 2014, 01:58:34 PM »

Does this thread (still?) have an actual Muslim contributing to it?  I have a question.
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« Reply #660 on: November 20, 2014, 02:01:25 PM »

Does this thread (still?) have an actual Muslim contributing to it?  I have a question.
Post the question and we can find out.
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« Reply #661 on: November 20, 2014, 02:19:00 PM »

So there are a few Quran verses that I have been wondering about.  The first one is Surah 17:1 which says:

Exalted is He who took His Servant by night from al-Masjid al-Haram to al-Masjid al- Aqsa, whose surroundings We have blessed, to show him of Our signs. Indeed, He is the Hearing, the Seeing.

I understand that al-Masjid al-Haram refers to the temple in Mecca.  But does al-Masjid al- Aqsa refer to the temple in Jerusalem?  From what I can tell, it is part of a Muslim tradition that this Surah is describing when Allah took Muhammad to Jerusalem where he saw the temple.  From wikipedia (I know, I know):

According to the Quran and Islamic traditions, al-Aqsa Mosque is the place from which Muhammad went on a night journey (al-isra) during which he rode on Buraq, who took him from Mecca to al-Aqsa.[60] Muhammad tethered Buraq to the Western Wall and prayed at al-Aqsa Mosque and after he finished his prayers, the angel Jibril (Gabriel) traveled with him to heaven, where he met several other prophets and led them in prayer.

Is this a widespread belief?

I'll ask my other questions later if this goes well.
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« Reply #662 on: December 12, 2014, 04:53:15 AM »

Greetings John

What you're referring to is the subject of Isra and Miraj, a 2 part journey, starting from the earth and then into heavens (extra-dimensional/terrestrial, outer limits, ...etc.).
It's a widespread belief, and it is a deep subject especially for spirituality.

Are you by any chance familiar with Jacob's Ladder in the bible- Genesis 28?

It's the same concept.

Here is a scholarly lecture that briefly touches on the subject:

http://youtu.be/BWECylxw8UY?t=16m5s

I'll try to find more for you if you're interested.

If you really want to delve deeply in to this subject, you'll realize that the journey towards the Divine Presence goes beyond the realms of time, and towards timeless and beyond.  In those states, there is no such thing as past, presence and future.



So there are a few Quran verses that I have been wondering about.  The first one is Surah 17:1 which says:

Exalted is He who took His Servant by night from al-Masjid al-Haram to al-Masjid al- Aqsa, whose surroundings We have blessed, to show him of Our signs. Indeed, He is the Hearing, the Seeing.

I understand that al-Masjid al-Haram refers to the temple in Mecca.  But does al-Masjid al- Aqsa refer to the temple in Jerusalem?  From what I can tell, it is part of a Muslim tradition that this Surah is describing when Allah took Muhammad to Jerusalem where he saw the temple.  From wikipedia (I know, I know):

According to the Quran and Islamic traditions, al-Aqsa Mosque is the place from which Muhammad went on a night journey (al-isra) during which he rode on Buraq, who took him from Mecca to al-Aqsa.[60] Muhammad tethered Buraq to the Western Wall and prayed at al-Aqsa Mosque and after he finished his prayers, the angel Jibril (Gabriel) traveled with him to heaven, where he met several other prophets and led them in prayer.

Is this a widespread belief?

I'll ask my other questions later if this goes well.
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« Reply #663 on: December 12, 2014, 08:21:03 AM »

Greetings John

What you're referring to is the subject of Isra and Miraj, a 2 part journey, starting from the earth and then into heavens (extra-dimensional/terrestrial, outer limits, ...etc.).
It's a widespread belief, and it is a deep subject especially for spirituality.

Are you by any chance familiar with Jacob's Ladder in the bible- Genesis 28?

It's the same concept.

Here is a scholarly lecture that briefly touches on the subject:

http://youtu.be/BWECylxw8UY?t=16m5s

I'll try to find more for you if you're interested.

If you really want to delve deeply in to this subject, you'll realize that the journey towards the Divine Presence goes beyond the realms of time, and towards timeless and beyond.  In those states, there is no such thing as past, presence and future.



So there are a few Quran verses that I have been wondering about.  The first one is Surah 17:1 which says:

Exalted is He who took His Servant by night from al-Masjid al-Haram to al-Masjid al- Aqsa, whose surroundings We have blessed, to show him of Our signs. Indeed, He is the Hearing, the Seeing.

I understand that al-Masjid al-Haram refers to the temple in Mecca.  But does al-Masjid al- Aqsa refer to the temple in Jerusalem?  From what I can tell, it is part of a Muslim tradition that this Surah is describing when Allah took Muhammad to Jerusalem where he saw the temple.  From wikipedia (I know, I know):

According to the Quran and Islamic traditions, al-Aqsa Mosque is the place from which Muhammad went on a night journey (al-isra) during which he rode on Buraq, who took him from Mecca to al-Aqsa.[60] Muhammad tethered Buraq to the Western Wall and prayed at al-Aqsa Mosque and after he finished his prayers, the angel Jibril (Gabriel) traveled with him to heaven, where he met several other prophets and led them in prayer.

Is this a widespread belief?

I'll ask my other questions later if this goes well.

fibonacci, thanks for answering my question.  I have done some research about this belief, but I have not come across an interpretation such as the one that you presented.

Specifically, you seem to be interpreting the midnight journey as being other-worldly, whereas the accounts I've seen see it as Muhammad literally (though supernaturally) being taken to Jerusalem.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isra_and_Mi%27raj

Do you disagree with this interpretation?

Also, how would I classify what kind of Islam you personally observe?  Is Rabbaniyyun, follower of Ahl al-Bayt just another way of saying Sunni?
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« Reply #664 on: December 12, 2014, 09:49:55 AM »

He is Shia.
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« Reply #665 on: December 13, 2014, 05:29:07 AM »

fibonacci, thanks for answering my question.  I have done some research about this belief, but I have not come across an interpretation such as the one that you presented.

Specifically, you seem to be interpreting the midnight journey as being other-worldly, whereas the accounts I've seen see it as Muhammad literally (though supernaturally) being taken to Jerusalem.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isra_and_Mi%27raj

Do you disagree with this interpretation?

Also, how would I classify what kind of Islam you personally observe?  Is Rabbaniyyun, follower of Ahl al-Bayt just another way of saying Sunni?

Hi John

Maybe my previous post wasn't worded correctly, but the night journey was a two part journey.  First part was Isra-- and it is related to the (and yes literal) travel to Jerusalem.  And the Miraj-- which is the journey to the heavens similar to the concept of Jacob's ladder.

As for the literal travel to Jerusalem-- similar concepts can be found in the bible, such as the chariots of fire and horses--> 2 Kings 2:11 and 6:17.

I hope that helps, let me know if there is anything else...

Edit:

Shias and some sunnis would consider themselves as followers of Ahlul-Bayt.  One reason why I put it in my profile, is that I'm hoping that the users here who want to learn more about Islam start by learning about Ahlul Bayt, and especially the story of Imam Hussein.

Sacrifice and Intercession on Judgement Day is a major theme in Christianity, and the same is true for the followers of Ahlul Bayt, and the big sacrifice that Imam Hussein went through.
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« Reply #666 on: December 13, 2014, 07:25:37 AM »

Fibonacci I hope you would do a study on Jesus and find  out why he's more than just a rasul of Allah. with your stay here and don't be afraid to ask us questions. 
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« Reply #667 on: December 15, 2014, 07:48:46 AM »

fibonacci, thanks for answering my question.  I have done some research about this belief, but I have not come across an interpretation such as the one that you presented.

Specifically, you seem to be interpreting the midnight journey as being other-worldly, whereas the accounts I've seen see it as Muhammad literally (though supernaturally) being taken to Jerusalem.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isra_and_Mi%27raj

Do you disagree with this interpretation?

Also, how would I classify what kind of Islam you personally observe?  Is Rabbaniyyun, follower of Ahl al-Bayt just another way of saying Sunni?

Hi John

Maybe my previous post wasn't worded correctly, but the night journey was a two part journey.  First part was Isra-- and it is related to the (and yes literal) travel to Jerusalem.  And the Miraj-- which is the journey to the heavens similar to the concept of Jacob's ladder.

As for the literal travel to Jerusalem-- similar concepts can be found in the bible, such as the chariots of fire and horses--> 2 Kings 2:11 and 6:17.

I hope that helps, let me know if there is anything else...

Edit:

Shias and some sunnis would consider themselves as followers of Ahlul-Bayt.  One reason why I put it in my profile, is that I'm hoping that the users here who want to learn more about Islam start by learning about Ahlul Bayt, and especially the story of Imam Hussein.

Sacrifice and Intercession on Judgement Day is a major theme in Christianity, and the same is true for the followers of Ahlul Bayt, and the big sacrifice that Imam Hussein went through.

Thanks for the info.  My concern with this verse in the Quran was that it seems impossible.  Not because it was supernatural, but because there was no mosque in Jerusalem at the time.  There wasn't even a temple. 

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« Reply #668 on: December 15, 2014, 08:46:42 AM »

To the muslim guy in here, can you please explain there verse that you can find in the quran.
"9:5 When the sacred months are over slay the idolaters wherever you find them. Arrest them, besiege them, and lie in ambush everywhere for them. If they repent and take to prayer and render the alms levy, allow them to go their way. God is forgiving and merciful."

Or how about this one: 4:34
"Men are in charge of women by [right of] what Allah has given one over the other and what they spend [for maintenance] from their wealth. So righteous women are devoutly obedient, guarding in [the husband's] absence what Allah would have them guard. But those [wives] from whom you fear arrogance - [first] advise them; [then if they persist], forsake them in bed; and [finally], strike them. But if they obey you [once more], seek no means against them. Indeed, Allah is ever Exalted and Grand."

I have reader the whole chapter and i don't just pick ut these versers without looking at the whole pictures, but in these two versers i can't to get an answer.
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« Reply #669 on: December 15, 2014, 04:21:11 PM »


Thanks for the info.  My concern with this verse in the Quran was that it seems impossible.  Not because it was supernatural, but because there was no mosque in Jerusalem at the time.  There wasn't even a temple.  


Hi John, the surah 17:1 is referring to Masjid Al-Aqsa as the farthest location where people are praying to one Creator (temple mount area)-- it's not necessarily saying there is a dome-roofed building on the temple mount.  
I'm not a historian/scholar, but from what I've read the western wall and it's vicinity has been for many centuries a location where many monotheist would pray.
  
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« Reply #670 on: December 15, 2014, 05:19:42 PM »

To the muslim guy in here, can you please explain there verse that you can find in the quran.
"9:5 When the sacred months are over slay the idolaters wherever you find them. Arrest them, besiege them, and lie in ambush everywhere for them. If they repent and take to prayer and render the alms levy, allow them to go their way. God is forgiving and merciful."

Or how about this one: 4:34
"Men are in charge of women by [right of] what Allah has given one over the other and what they spend [for maintenance] from their wealth. So righteous women are devoutly obedient, guarding in [the husband's] absence what Allah would have them guard. But those [wives] from whom you fear arrogance - [first] advise them; [then if they persist], forsake them in bed; and [finally], strike them. But if they obey you [once more], seek no means against them. Indeed, Allah is ever Exalted and Grand."

I have reader the whole chapter and i don't just pick ut these versers without looking at the whole pictures, but in these two versers i can't to get an answer.

Before I explain those verses in the Quran, I'll tell you that reading the Qu'ran casually to learn about Islam can get you confused.

I suggest a book like this--http://www.islamquery.com/documents/Treatise%20on%20Rights.pdf first.
Also talking to a scholar/Imam will help.

***

Verse 9:5 is quite a "popular" verse.  I believe I addressed it a few times, earlier in this thread.
The crazy groups, would use verses like this to justify their violent tendencies--and they're lost, they're deceived by the devil.

This verse has a historical context to it... which was referring to enemy tribes attacking the Prophet and his followers even though they've established a series of a peace treaties.  These tribes very breaking their treaty, and the verse was indicating that when the contract is up, to go ahead and defend yourselves from the evil.  See the previous verse-->9:4 and the next two verses--> verse 9:7.

---

Now the question is, since these verses were related to a historical event 1400 years ago, how should Muslims today read them?
The answer is that-- the life of the arab Prophet Muhammad in the year 600 AD was a microcosm of the macrocosm of Creation moving towards his Creator.

Those physical battles/wars that the Prophet and his companions were facing, is a physical manifestation of what an individual would go through spiritually when they're trying trying to get closer to the Creator.

So verse 9:5 should be interpret internally-- when it says take out the polytheist-- it is saying take out the polytheist aspects within yourself (ego, things in your heart that takes you away from the Creator).



***
Verse 4:34- Some scholars say the strike is referring to a symbolic swing of a "toothbrush" -- http://quran.com/38/44 .
The Creator knows best.

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« Reply #671 on: December 15, 2014, 06:41:23 PM »

Fibonacci I hope you would do a study on Jesus and find  out why he's more than just a rasul of Allah. with your stay here and don't be afraid to ask us questions. 

Lord willing, I'll do my best.
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« Reply #672 on: December 17, 2014, 10:31:57 AM »

thanks for the answer fibonacci regarding the versers. Its quite funny because i have heard the exact same answer from imam, and other muslims regarding 9:5 and do you know what always cross my mind? This did:
Jesus himself sat always down with people, and thru the word he tried to educate people and make them understad whats the right way with god. But when i study islam, Muhammed and the kalifs after him always (not always but most of the time) spread the word the thru war and fights, never the way jesus did it. If you read the Hadiths you will understand what i mean by muhammed and hes life being just bloody.

If you just look at how bloody Muhammad life was, you can understand that nothing good can come out from the religion, And if you look at how jesus lived his life you will clearly see that Christianity is filled with love.

OFC you can come now with conter arguments that I'm wrong but trust me, and deep down in you heart to, you know what islam is all about. Also check these versers and try to explain them if you like to:
Amputate, Behead non-Muslims;
8:12

You will kill non-muslims to receive 72 virgins:
9:111

Terrorise non-muslims
8:60

You will need 4 muslim male witnesses to prove a rape:
24:4

Kill infidels if they don’t convert or pay jizya (tax);
9:29

”you can enslave for sex and work;
65:4
4:3
4:24
33:50
70:29-30

Read them on arabic, and not on other language please if you can.
But don't get me wrong, i don't have anything against human muslims, but its islam that I'm against. I pray every night for muslims that god will open there eyes in to the right way, and fibonacci you will be in my prayer during the fast, may you find your way over so i can call you a brother in christ. 
Im finish my post with a quote from metropolitan Paul Yazigy: "Christians had defeated the greatest empire in the history of mankind without carrying weapons. They carried love, they carried goodness, and they carried the word. That is the difficult path. The easy path would be to kill and slaughter. The difficult path is to change yourself an enhance your morals so you can change other".

God bless you my friend.
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« Reply #673 on: December 18, 2014, 11:24:47 AM »

You will kill non-muslims to receive 72 virgins:
9:111

I didn't check the other verses you cited, but the Quran (as far as I know) doesn't include anything about 72 virgins.  Even this verse you gave says nothing about virgins.

You probably meant 9:11, which doesn't put a number to these virgins.  Does your criticism still stand?
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« Reply #674 on: December 18, 2014, 11:32:26 AM »


Thanks for the info.  My concern with this verse in the Quran was that it seems impossible.  Not because it was supernatural, but because there was no mosque in Jerusalem at the time.  There wasn't even a temple.  


Hi John, the surah 17:1 is referring to Masjid Al-Aqsa as the farthest location where people are praying to one Creator (temple mount area)-- it's not necessarily saying there is a dome-roofed building on the temple mount.  
I'm not a historian/scholar, but from what I've read the western wall and it's vicinity has been for many centuries a location where many monotheist would pray.
  

Thanks for the explanation.  I'll accept that it wasn't meant to be the Jewish Temple that he visited, but rather just a place where mean were worshiping God.

The reason I posted this question was because it seemed like a verse which was obviously wrong.  I know of several such verses (and perhaps you do too) where it is said that they are just false.  People do that with verses in the Bible too, but the vast majority of the time it turns out that the verse was fine when given the proper context.  However, there are verses in the Bible which are not, strictly speaking, accurate.

For the Orthodox Christian, or any Christian who doesn't hold to biblical inerrancy, this isn't such a problem.  My understanding of Islam, however, is that they hold to quranic inerrancy.  The reason being is that, unlike the Bible, the Quran is the dictated Word of God, and is aware of itself.  Is this understanding correct?

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Love is not blind; that is the last thing that it is. Love is bound; and the more it is bound the less it is blind.

—G.K. Chesterton
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