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Author Topic: Feel free to ask me anything about Islam...  (Read 28994 times) Average Rating: 0
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essene19
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« Reply #450 on: April 03, 2013, 11:06:12 PM »

Yasser al-Habib is a sectarian Shiite fanatic and does no good for the cause of Islam or Muslims.  At least one thing I can credit Christians with is that they do not waste their time and energy fighting over such trivial matters, about this sahaba or that sahaba.  Islam was nearly divided into soon after the Prophet's death - the early Christian community, at least to my knowledge, did not have that problem.

I hate to burst your bubble, but that's so old it was dealt with in the New Testament itself. From the first letter of St. Paul to the Corinthians:

For when one says, “I am of Paul,” and another, “I am of Apollos,” are you not carnal?

Point taken, there's no bubble to burst really.

I too would be happy to answer any questions that users here might have about Islam, to the best of my ability.

As for the verse dealing with taking Jews and Christians as friends, you have to consider the following:

- The term that the Quran uses in that verse is "awliya", which denotes a kind of guardianship rather than friendship on a human level.  Do not take such people are protectors/guardians, especially when they are protectors of one another.  To a certain extent, it was true in the 7th century, and now, if you look at the political scene, it applies in this century as well (hint hint...the curious case of (un)Christian Zionism...).  I've also heard interpretations that say that "one should not take such Jews and such Christians who themselves are friends and allies of another", which contains an important nuance.  God knows best.

- In traditional Islamic jurisprudence, Muslim men are allowed to marry Jewish and Christian women - if the Qur'an truly prohibited friendship with Jews and Christians, why in the world would it allow Muslim men to marry non-Muslim women, especially when men are expected to love and take care of them (and the women are allowed to keep their faith as well)?

- The concept of abrogation is a concept popular amongst both Islamists and detractors of Islam - there is this idea that later verses annul or abolish earlier, more peaceful verses.  I find this to be a completely erroneous idea, and the fact that Muslim scholars throughout the centuries have never been able to agree on which verses are abrogated or not further proves the shaky foundations of the doctrine.  The Qur'an is a text that should and needs to be examined holistically, where one verses explains or expands upon another.  If the text says "Christian" or "Jew", then we must decipher what the text means by those terms within the text itself rather than impose our own definitions onto it.  In other words, a proper methodological approach needs to be established where the Qur'an's own definitions of those concepts are utilized to interpret the verses. Such a methodology has been absent from the intellectual world of Islam for quite some time, and that is part of the problem.

With all that said, I've had non-Muslim friends throughout my life (and I will happily continue to do so), and no imam or scholar or anyone in my religious circle has ever expressed any misgivings about that.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2013, 11:09:20 PM by essene19 » Logged
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« Reply #451 on: April 03, 2013, 11:21:16 PM »

Thanks for your thoughtful contributions, essene19, and welcome to the forum.
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« Reply #452 on: April 04, 2013, 01:35:20 AM »

Thanks for your thoughtful contributions, essene19, and welcome to the forum.

Seconded.

I looked a bit in to "abrogation" when I heard about it discussed so much among the Orthodox on the internet and even a simple reading of Islamic hermeneutics over the course of history would show that "abrogation" in the manner in which many critics of Islams would hold it applies more to the typical Christian approach to scripture than Muslim.

Though Muslims who did advocate for an abrogation of sorts seemed confused and couldn't agree on which part abrogated which, which parts of the Koran were abrogated etc.

Overall, outside of reading what amounted to a lot of proto RC scholasticism, I was quite impressed during my rather superficial look into the history of Islamic hermeneutics.

I might have a few questions.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2013, 01:35:45 AM by orthonorm » Logged

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« Reply #453 on: April 04, 2013, 01:45:14 AM »

How come all the Hadiths seem to promote and tolerate violence and immoral practices, whereas, when I read the Quran, it seems to be peaceful for the most part?

It depends on which hadiths you're reading.  Taking a hadith book and reading it without a qualified teacher can be very dangerous, especially if one is not aware of the social/historical context of the hadiths themselves.  And the hadiths are also divided into different categories: there are authentic hadiths, sound hadiths, weak hadiths, fabricated hadiths, etc.

I hate to ask such a general question, but I really can't offer much more as I don't know a lot about Islam, in any case . . .

Given the "problems" with the hadith, what do you make of the Koranist or Koran only trend in contemporary Islam.

When I was looking into Islamic hermeneutics, I was intrigued by this development and surprised by the incredible lack of sophistication of their critics to their approach to understanding the Koran and Islam. It is worse than how many critique so-called sola scriptura Protestants within Orthodoxy. It seemed to me few outside this development took serious the method of the Koranists and offered a proper critique.

I am sympathetic to the sola scriptura folks who are sincerely so, as their method for understanding Scripture is more nuanced than what their detractors would have you believe.

It also seemed that the Koranists were also as a whole more nuanced than their detractors would have you think. And less disperate in belief and practice than their detractors would have you think.

Any opinions of this seemingly new trend within Islam? Perhaps it is a perennial one.

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« Reply #454 on: April 04, 2013, 02:34:25 AM »

What is your opinion of the recently issued Fatwa allowing rape of non-Sunni women in Syria? The following article also makes the point that in historical Islam such a practice is hardly an aberration; can you comment on this issue as well?

Quote from: Raymond Ibriham
Human Events
New Fatwa Permits Rape of Non-Sunni Women in Syria

Yet another Islamic cleric recently made it permissible for the Islamic fighters waging a jihad in Syria—politely known as “the opposition”—to rape the nation’s women.

‘Ajlawni: Justifying rape in Islam’s name

Salafi Sheikh Yasir al-‘Ajlawni, a Jordanian of origin who earlier lived in Damascus, Syria for 17 years, posted a YouTube video last week where he said he was preparing to issue a “legitimate fatwa” making it legal (in the eyes of Islam) for those Muslims fighting to topple secular president Bashar Assad and install Sharia law to “capture and have sex with” all non-Sunni women, specifically naming Assad’s own sect, the Alawites, as well as the Druze and several others, in short, all non-Sunnis and non-Muslims.
READ MORE HERE
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« Reply #455 on: April 04, 2013, 03:32:57 AM »

- The concept of abrogation is a concept popular amongst both Islamists and detractors of Islam - there is this idea that later verses annul or abolish earlier, more peaceful verses.  I find this to be a completely erroneous idea, and the fact that Muslim scholars throughout the centuries have never been able to agree on which verses are abrogated or not further proves the shaky foundations of the doctrine.
It is interesting to hear the claim that abrogation (i.e. newer revelations override the older ones) is erroneous. Abrogation is affirmed by many prominent scholars of Islam who argue that without abrogation there would be logical contradictions in the Quran,[1] and that furthermore it is explicitly taught by the Quran, multiple times in fact.

"Many verses counsel patience in the face of the mockery of the unbelievers, while other verses incite to warfare against the unbelievers. The former are linked to the [chronologically anterior] Meccan phase of the mission when the Muslims were too few and weak to do other than endure insult; the latter are linked to Medina where the Prophet had acquired the numbers and the strength to hit back at his enemies. The discrepancy between the two sets of verses indicates that different situations call for different regulations."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naskh_(tafsir)

Quote from: Abrogation in Islam / Middle East Quarterly
Four verses in the Qu'ran acknowledge or justify abrogation:

    When we cancel a message, or throw it into oblivion, we replace it with one better or one similar. Do you not know that God has power over all things?[10]
    When we replace a message with another, and God knows best what he reveals, they say: You have made it up. Yet, most of them do not know.[11]
    God abrogates or confirms whatsoever he will, for he has with him the Book of the Books.[12]
    If we pleased, we could take away what we have revealed to you. Then you will not find anyone to plead for it with us.[13]
__________
[9] Bell, Introduction to the Qur'an, pp. 86-107; Arthur Jeffery, Islam: Muhammad and His Religion (Indianapolis: Bobbs-Merrill, 1958), p. 66.
[10] Qur. 2:106.
[11] Qur. 16:101.
[12] Qur. 13:39.
[13] Qur. 17:86.


David Bukay “Peace or Jihad? Abrogation in Islam,” Middle East Quarterly, VOL XIV, NO. 4, Fall 2007, pp. 3-11
http://www.meforum.org/1754/peace-or-jihad-abrogation-in-islam#_ftnref14  
 

Question: if as seems to be the case rejection of abrogation is "outside the mainstream and, perhaps even the religion itself" (Bukay, op cit) the rejection of abrogation no less than the fact you mentioned that Muslim scholars have never been able to agree on which verses were abrogated seems to suggest not the nature of Islam (singular) but Islams (plural). If the mainstream of historical Islam and Islamic jurists is wrong and is unable to present a unified view why should we suppose some fellow on the internet represents True Islam? (perhaps your variety might be an instance of a "prettier face," but if it is a fringe viewpoint at the very least it does not abrogate the problems associated with the doctrine of abrogation for the non-Muslim world in mainstream and historical Islam.

Quote from: Abrogation in Islam / Middle East Quarterly
"Most scholars divide the Qur'an into verses revealed by Muhammad in Mecca when his community of followers was weak and more inclined to compromise, and those revealed in Medina, where Muhammad's strength grew. Classical scholars argued that anyone who studied the Qur'an without having mastered the doctrine of abrogation would be "deficient."[15] Those who do not accept abrogation fall outside the mainstream and, perhaps, even the religion itself. The Ahmadiyah sect, for example, today concentrated in Pakistan, consistently rejects abrogation because it undercuts the notion that the Qur'an is free from errors.[16] Many Muslims consider Ahmadis, who also see their founder as a prophet, to be apostates.
_____________________
[14] John Burton, The Encyclopedia of Islam, vol. 7, s.v. "Naskh," p. 1010.
[15] Abu al-Kasim Hibat-Allah Ibn Salama, An-Nasikh wal-Mansukh (Cairo: Dar al-Ma'arif, 1966), pp. 4-5, 123. On pp. 142-3, he lists the abrogated verses. See also pp. 7, 11, 26-7, 37, 46.
[16] Maulana Muhammad Ali, The Religion of Islam (Lahore: Ahmadiyya Anjuman Isha'at Islam, 2005), p. 32; Ahmad bin Muhammad al-Nahhas, An-Nasikh Wal-Mansukh (Cairo: Maktabat ‘Alam al-Fikr, 1986), pp. 2-3.


David Bukay “Peace or Jihad? Abrogation in Islam,” Middle East Quarterly, VOL XIV, NO. 4, Fall 2007, pp. 3-11
http://www.meforum.org/1754/peace-or-jihad-abrogation-in-islam#_ftnref14  

Thanks for your replies; I will ask more on the topic of friendship in a bit, also with attention to the way the issue plays out historiographically and in contemporary Islamic scholarship and culture in addition to individual examples of dissent which however more conciliatory and attractive they indeed may be, do not seem to represent the mainstream thus defined regardless of presentations by e.g. popular apologists.
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« Reply #456 on: April 04, 2013, 04:36:00 AM »

This bears a curious resemblance to the teachings of (Hassidic?) Judaism on the subject of pegam habrit (literally, "the defilement of the covenant" - brit here also means the organ that bears the mark of the covenant):

http://www.briskodesh.org/pages/bris/spilling-seed.htm

http://www.truekabbalah.org/pages/Documents4/k00215.htm

Thank you very much Romaios for these insightful links!  It amazes me just how much knowledge is in the Abrahamic religions that is hidden and waiting to be rediscovered.  Most of what these links say I agree in regards to the truth it discusses-- although I don't think the lives of the jinns depends solely on the lust we let out.  I believe that jinns can live off of other things-- but our sins is like a 'drug' to them, and that's why they constantly come at us and whisper negative thoughts.  This is why so many people have addictions and don't understand why.

I don't know if you ever heard story like this.. but there are many females here in the west, who are miserable and lost their self-esteem because when they were young -- in highschool years, they got into relationships very early.  Their male partner put so much 'peer-pressure' and deception to have them fornicate.  The male partner even goes as far as lying to her that they will marry in the future.  But once they fornicated, the male friend never contacts her every again.  They keep asking themselves why this male friend of their left them after they fornicated and she lost her virginity to him.  She becomes so miserable, has so much pain in her heart, and keeps having negative thoughts with future relationships.  What these misguided females don't understand is that the jinns have been running their relationship from the onset-- most likely controlling their male partner (through lust) to push them to commit this sin. When this sin occurs, the jinns enjoy a very powerful negative energy....while the antichrist benifits--who wants to push misery, disorder and poverty into our society.

Quote
What might make Shi'a Islam more appealing to James is the possibility of contracting a temporary marriage. Maybe fibonacci could tell us more about this.

Not all shia's accept this type of marriage.  Personally I don't accept this type of marriage if it is for lustful/sexual purposes.  If it is only to financially take care of a husbandless female for a temproary amount of time... like at times of war or economic suffering then yes it's okay.  Remember an unmarried female and unmarried male who are not from the same family, can not live together.  This temp marriage can be a contract to allow such an arrangement.
How many wives did Muhammed have? How old was Aisha, his third wife, when they got married?
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« Reply #457 on: April 04, 2013, 04:43:20 PM »

This bears a curious resemblance to the teachings of (Hassidic?) Judaism on the subject of pegam habrit (literally, "the defilement of the covenant" - brit here also means the organ that bears the mark of the covenant):

http://www.briskodesh.org/pages/bris/spilling-seed.htm

http://www.truekabbalah.org/pages/Documents4/k00215.htm

Thank you very much Romaios for these insightful links!  It amazes me just how much knowledge is in the Abrahamic religions that is hidden and waiting to be rediscovered.  Most of what these links say I agree in regards to the truth it discusses-- although I don't think the lives of the jinns depends solely on the lust we let out.  I believe that jinns can live off of other things-- but our sins is like a 'drug' to them, and that's why they constantly come at us and whisper negative thoughts.  This is why so many people have addictions and don't understand why.

I don't know if you ever heard story like this.. but there are many females here in the west, who are miserable and lost their self-esteem because when they were young -- in highschool years, they got into relationships very early.  Their male partner put so much 'peer-pressure' and deception to have them fornicate.  The male partner even goes as far as lying to her that they will marry in the future.  But once they fornicated, the male friend never contacts her every again.  They keep asking themselves why this male friend of their left them after they fornicated and she lost her virginity to him.  She becomes so miserable, has so much pain in her heart, and keeps having negative thoughts with future relationships.  What these misguided females don't understand is that the jinns have been running their relationship from the onset-- most likely controlling their male partner (through lust) to push them to commit this sin. When this sin occurs, the jinns enjoy a very powerful negative energy....while the antichrist benifits--who wants to push misery, disorder and poverty into our society.

Quote
What might make Shi'a Islam more appealing to James is the possibility of contracting a temporary marriage. Maybe fibonacci could tell us more about this.

Not all shia's accept this type of marriage.  Personally I don't accept this type of marriage if it is for lustful/sexual purposes.  If it is only to financially take care of a husbandless female for a temproary amount of time... like at times of war or economic suffering then yes it's okay.  Remember an unmarried female and unmarried male who are not from the same family, can not live together.  This temp marriage can be a contract to allow such an arrangement.
How many wives did Muhammed have? How old was Aisha, his third wife, when they got married?
The real question is, just how old was she when they "consumated" the marriage.
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« Reply #458 on: April 04, 2013, 04:55:04 PM »

It was SOOO evil and horrible when those godless Muslims killed Orthodox Christians in their conquests and took young wives, but it was perfectly okay when those Papists killed Central and South American natives and bashed their heads against trees after baptizing them so they wouldn't grow up to be pagans  Roll Eyes
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You're really on to something here. Tattoo to keep you from masturbating, chew to keep you from fornicating... it's a whole new world where you outsource your crosses. You're like a Christian entrepreneur or something.
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« Reply #459 on: April 04, 2013, 05:35:34 PM »

It was SOOO evil and horrible when those godless Muslims killed Orthodox Christians in their conquests and took young wives, but it was perfectly okay when those Papists killed Central and South American natives and bashed their heads against trees after baptizing them so they wouldn't grow up to be pagans  Roll Eyes
Where do you get this stuff form?

The indigenous pagans killed plenty of their own wayy before the "papists" ever came around.

James, you really have some serious hate and bigotry issues  when it comes to "whites" and "papists".

You need to research/study more and post less.
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« Reply #460 on: April 04, 2013, 05:47:10 PM »

It was SOOO evil and horrible when those godless Muslims killed Orthodox Christians in their conquests and took young wives, but it was perfectly okay when those Papists killed Central and South American natives and bashed their heads against trees after baptizing them so they wouldn't grow up to be pagans  Roll Eyes

James, I have been here for over two years nd I have never (at least according to my memory) heard anybody on this forum claiming that the native american genocides were "okay".
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« Reply #461 on: April 05, 2013, 06:21:39 PM »

This bears a curious resemblance to the teachings of (Hassidic?) Judaism on the subject of pegam habrit (literally, "the defilement of the covenant" - brit here also means the organ that bears the mark of the covenant):

http://www.briskodesh.org/pages/bris/spilling-seed.htm

http://www.truekabbalah.org/pages/Documents4/k00215.htm

Thank you very much Romaios for these insightful links!  It amazes me just how much knowledge is in the Abrahamic religions that is hidden and waiting to be rediscovered.  Most of what these links say I agree in regards to the truth it discusses-- although I don't think the lives of the jinns depends solely on the lust we let out.  I believe that jinns can live off of other things-- but our sins is like a 'drug' to them, and that's why they constantly come at us and whisper negative thoughts.  This is why so many people have addictions and don't understand why.

I don't know if you ever heard story like this.. but there are many females here in the west, who are miserable and lost their self-esteem because when they were young -- in highschool years, they got into relationships very early.  Their male partner put so much 'peer-pressure' and deception to have them fornicate.  The male partner even goes as far as lying to her that they will marry in the future.  But once they fornicated, the male friend never contacts her every again.  They keep asking themselves why this male friend of their left them after they fornicated and she lost her virginity to him.  She becomes so miserable, has so much pain in her heart, and keeps having negative thoughts with future relationships.  What these misguided females don't understand is that the jinns have been running their relationship from the onset-- most likely controlling their male partner (through lust) to push them to commit this sin. When this sin occurs, the jinns enjoy a very powerful negative energy....while the antichrist benifits--who wants to push misery, disorder and poverty into our society.

Quote
What might make Shi'a Islam more appealing to James is the possibility of contracting a temporary marriage. Maybe fibonacci could tell us more about this.

Not all shia's accept this type of marriage.  Personally I don't accept this type of marriage if it is for lustful/sexual purposes.  If it is only to financially take care of a husbandless female for a temproary amount of time... like at times of war or economic suffering then yes it's okay.  Remember an unmarried female and unmarried male who are not from the same family, can not live together.  This temp marriage can be a contract to allow such an arrangement.
How many wives did Muhammed have? How old was Aisha, his third wife, when they got married?
The real question is, just how old was she when they "consumated" the marriage.
I'm still waiting for my answer.

Was your "prophet" a paedophile or not?
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« Reply #462 on: April 05, 2013, 06:37:37 PM »

This bears a curious resemblance to the teachings of (Hassidic?) Judaism on the subject of pegam habrit (literally, "the defilement of the covenant" - brit here also means the organ that bears the mark of the covenant):

http://www.briskodesh.org/pages/bris/spilling-seed.htm

http://www.truekabbalah.org/pages/Documents4/k00215.htm

Thank you very much Romaios for these insightful links!  It amazes me just how much knowledge is in the Abrahamic religions that is hidden and waiting to be rediscovered.  Most of what these links say I agree in regards to the truth it discusses-- although I don't think the lives of the jinns depends solely on the lust we let out.  I believe that jinns can live off of other things-- but our sins is like a 'drug' to them, and that's why they constantly come at us and whisper negative thoughts.  This is why so many people have addictions and don't understand why.

I don't know if you ever heard story like this.. but there are many females here in the west, who are miserable and lost their self-esteem because when they were young -- in highschool years, they got into relationships very early.  Their male partner put so much 'peer-pressure' and deception to have them fornicate.  The male partner even goes as far as lying to her that they will marry in the future.  But once they fornicated, the male friend never contacts her every again.  They keep asking themselves why this male friend of their left them after they fornicated and she lost her virginity to him.  She becomes so miserable, has so much pain in her heart, and keeps having negative thoughts with future relationships.  What these misguided females don't understand is that the jinns have been running their relationship from the onset-- most likely controlling their male partner (through lust) to push them to commit this sin. When this sin occurs, the jinns enjoy a very powerful negative energy....while the antichrist benifits--who wants to push misery, disorder and poverty into our society.

Quote
What might make Shi'a Islam more appealing to James is the possibility of contracting a temporary marriage. Maybe fibonacci could tell us more about this.

Not all shia's accept this type of marriage.  Personally I don't accept this type of marriage if it is for lustful/sexual purposes.  If it is only to financially take care of a husbandless female for a temproary amount of time... like at times of war or economic suffering then yes it's okay.  Remember an unmarried female and unmarried male who are not from the same family, can not live together.  This temp marriage can be a contract to allow such an arrangement.
How many wives did Muhammed have? How old was Aisha, his third wife, when they got married?
The real question is, just how old was she when they "consumated" the marriage.
I'm still waiting for my answer.

Was your "prophet" a paedophile or not?

No muslim would say that, obviously.

Personally, I'm not entirely sure. Marriage between children and adults have been practised in many cultures. From what I can find, she never had any children. 
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« Reply #463 on: April 05, 2013, 07:12:06 PM »

Quote
No muslim would say that, obviously.



No, but I would like to see how they dance around that one.

Quote
Personally, I'm not entirely sure. Marriage between children and adults have been practised in many cultures. From what I can find, she never had any children.  

Uhh, dude she was nine.......

I don't know about you, but from where I come from that's child-rape.

I want to be fair to the Muslim posters on here, but grown men having sex with pre-adolscent children is where I draw the line.

I don't care what  some "voice" in the desert told their prophet.
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« Reply #464 on: April 05, 2013, 07:14:48 PM »

Remembering that Mohammed is the exemplar in all things for Moslems.
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« Reply #465 on: April 05, 2013, 07:24:28 PM »

It is disgusting, really. Even when Christians arranged marriages for young children they at least had the decency to wait until they hit puberty before they forced them to consummate. Oh sorry, this thread is about skeletons in the closet of Islam, not Christianity.
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« Reply #466 on: April 05, 2013, 07:34:19 PM »

Quote
No muslim would say that, obviously.



No, but I would like to see how they dance around that one.

Quote
Personally, I'm not entirely sure. Marriage between children and adults have been practised in many cultures. From what I can find, she never had any children.  

Uhh, dude she was nine.......

I don't know about you, but from where I come from that's child-rape.

I want to be fair to the Muslim posters on here, but grown men having sex with pre-adolscent children is where I draw the line.

I don't care what  some "voice" in the desert told their prophet.

Indeed, in our eyes it is, but this is not modern time, but 7th century Arabia. Having sex with a nine-year-old is certainly pedhophilia, from a modern viewpoint, but during Muhammed's lifetime, it have appearently been socially acceptable. This doesn't make it right, of course.
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« Reply #467 on: April 05, 2013, 08:26:06 PM »

This bears a curious resemblance to the teachings of (Hassidic?) Judaism on the subject of pegam habrit (literally, "the defilement of the covenant" - brit here also means the organ that bears the mark of the covenant):

http://www.briskodesh.org/pages/bris/spilling-seed.htm

http://www.truekabbalah.org/pages/Documents4/k00215.htm

Thank you very much Romaios for these insightful links!  It amazes me just how much knowledge is in the Abrahamic religions that is hidden and waiting to be rediscovered.  Most of what these links say I agree in regards to the truth it discusses-- although I don't think the lives of the jinns depends solely on the lust we let out.  I believe that jinns can live off of other things-- but our sins is like a 'drug' to them, and that's why they constantly come at us and whisper negative thoughts.  This is why so many people have addictions and don't understand why.

I don't know if you ever heard story like this.. but there are many females here in the west, who are miserable and lost their self-esteem because when they were young -- in highschool years, they got into relationships very early.  Their male partner put so much 'peer-pressure' and deception to have them fornicate.  The male partner even goes as far as lying to her that they will marry in the future.  But once they fornicated, the male friend never contacts her every again.  They keep asking themselves why this male friend of their left them after they fornicated and she lost her virginity to him.  She becomes so miserable, has so much pain in her heart, and keeps having negative thoughts with future relationships.  What these misguided females don't understand is that the jinns have been running their relationship from the onset-- most likely controlling their male partner (through lust) to push them to commit this sin. When this sin occurs, the jinns enjoy a very powerful negative energy....while the antichrist benifits--who wants to push misery, disorder and poverty into our society.

Quote
What might make Shi'a Islam more appealing to James is the possibility of contracting a temporary marriage. Maybe fibonacci could tell us more about this.

Not all shia's accept this type of marriage.  Personally I don't accept this type of marriage if it is for lustful/sexual purposes.  If it is only to financially take care of a husbandless female for a temproary amount of time... like at times of war or economic suffering then yes it's okay.  Remember an unmarried female and unmarried male who are not from the same family, can not live together.  This temp marriage can be a contract to allow such an arrangement.
How many wives did Muhammed have? How old was Aisha, his third wife, when they got married?
The real question is, just how old was she when they "consumated" the marriage.
I'm still waiting for my answer.

Was your "prophet" a paedophile or not?

No. And these boring and typical anti-Muslim ideologically charged questions are boring.  

Even xarskai, who is like one the best interneters ever, has hit a low with the "sources" he is citing here and the questions being asked.
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« Reply #468 on: April 05, 2013, 08:26:38 PM »

Quote
No muslim would say that, obviously.



No, but I would like to see how they dance around that one.

Quote
Personally, I'm not entirely sure. Marriage between children and adults have been practised in many cultures. From what I can find, she never had any children.  

Uhh, dude she was nine.......

I don't know about you, but from where I come from that's child-rape.

I want to be fair to the Muslim posters on here, but grown men having sex with pre-adolscent children is where I draw the line.

I don't care what  some "voice" in the desert told their prophet.

Indeed, in our eyes it is, but this is not modern time, but 7th century Arabia. Having sex with a nine-year-old is certainly pedhophilia, from a modern viewpoint, but during Muhammed's lifetime, it have appearently been socially acceptable. This doesn't make it right, of course.
I'm sorry but  having sex with 9yr olds is universally taboo, no matter what century you're in, at least in European culture.

I can't speak for all Middle Easterns throughout all time periods but the better part of my human nature tells me they would pretty much have the same norms and values about pedophila and child-rape.

Maybe I'm wrong.

Either way, I don't want any part of any religion that's Ok with it.

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« Reply #469 on: April 05, 2013, 08:27:31 PM »

Remembering that Mohammed is the exemplar in all things for Moslems.

This is not the case either.

You are begging way too much.
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« Reply #470 on: April 05, 2013, 08:28:25 PM »

Maybe I'm wrong.

Let me help remove your doubts.

You are wrong.
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« Reply #471 on: April 05, 2013, 08:30:44 PM »

This bears a curious resemblance to the teachings of (Hassidic?) Judaism on the subject of pegam habrit (literally, "the defilement of the covenant" - brit here also means the organ that bears the mark of the covenant):

http://www.briskodesh.org/pages/bris/spilling-seed.htm

http://www.truekabbalah.org/pages/Documents4/k00215.htm

Thank you very much Romaios for these insightful links!  It amazes me just how much knowledge is in the Abrahamic religions that is hidden and waiting to be rediscovered.  Most of what these links say I agree in regards to the truth it discusses-- although I don't think the lives of the jinns depends solely on the lust we let out.  I believe that jinns can live off of other things-- but our sins is like a 'drug' to them, and that's why they constantly come at us and whisper negative thoughts.  This is why so many people have addictions and don't understand why.

I don't know if you ever heard story like this.. but there are many females here in the west, who are miserable and lost their self-esteem because when they were young -- in highschool years, they got into relationships very early.  Their male partner put so much 'peer-pressure' and deception to have them fornicate.  The male partner even goes as far as lying to her that they will marry in the future.  But once they fornicated, the male friend never contacts her every again.  They keep asking themselves why this male friend of their left them after they fornicated and she lost her virginity to him.  She becomes so miserable, has so much pain in her heart, and keeps having negative thoughts with future relationships.  What these misguided females don't understand is that the jinns have been running their relationship from the onset-- most likely controlling their male partner (through lust) to push them to commit this sin. When this sin occurs, the jinns enjoy a very powerful negative energy....while the antichrist benifits--who wants to push misery, disorder and poverty into our society.

Quote
What might make Shi'a Islam more appealing to James is the possibility of contracting a temporary marriage. Maybe fibonacci could tell us more about this.

Not all shia's accept this type of marriage.  Personally I don't accept this type of marriage if it is for lustful/sexual purposes.  If it is only to financially take care of a husbandless female for a temproary amount of time... like at times of war or economic suffering then yes it's okay.  Remember an unmarried female and unmarried male who are not from the same family, can not live together.  This temp marriage can be a contract to allow such an arrangement.
How many wives did Muhammed have? How old was Aisha, his third wife, when they got married?
The real question is, just how old was she when they "consumated" the marriage.
I'm still waiting for my answer.

Was your "prophet" a paedophile or not?

No. And these boring and typical anti-Muslim ideologically charged questions are boring.  

Even xarskai, who is like one the best interneters ever, has hit a low with the "sources" he is citing here and the questions being asked.
You have nothing to offer of substance as usual.

Move along now unless you can answer my question with some reliable sources.
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« Reply #472 on: April 05, 2013, 08:32:26 PM »

Maybe I'm wrong.

Let me help remove your doubts.

You are wrong.
You bring nothing to the table but your own personal opinons.

Why should I take you seriously?
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« Reply #473 on: April 05, 2013, 08:38:12 PM »

Maybe I'm wrong.

Let me help remove your doubts.

You are wrong.
You bring nothing to the table but your own personal opinons.

Why should I take you seriously?

I don't care.

The laziest of google searches would answer your "questions".

By the logic used by the anti-Muslimists, the Virgin Mary's marriage was consummated at age 12.

Do you agree with that? There are "Christian" sources that can back that up.

The scholarship around the hadith is complex, stupidly so. But no, no Muslim is going to tell you Mohamed had sex with a six year old.
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« Reply #474 on: April 05, 2013, 08:41:37 PM »

Quote
I'm sorry but  having sex with 9yr olds is universally taboo, no matter what century you're in, at least in European culture.

Then, it isn't, per definition, universal.

The question is how different cultures in different time periods may have defined things like pedophilia and rape. Muhammed and Aisha were married, therefore, it might have been seen as morally acceptable for them to have sex.

I am no scholar, so I can't say for sure if this is the case, but I don't think we can, or should, perceive historical event from our modern moral standpoints. Ethics and worldviews have changed tremendously over the centuries.
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« Reply #475 on: April 05, 2013, 09:25:33 PM »

Maybe I'm wrong.

Let me help remove your doubts.

You are wrong.
You bring nothing to the table but your own personal opinons.

Why should I take you seriously?

I don't care.

The laziest of google searches would answer your "questions".

By the logic used by the anti-Muslimists, the Virgin Mary's marriage was consummated at age 12.

Do you agree with that? There are "Christian" sources that can back that up.

The scholarship around the hadith is complex, stupidly so. But no, no Muslim is going to tell you Mohamed had sex with a six year old.
In case you didn't bother to read the title of this thread, it's states "Feel free to ask me anything about Islam"....

OK, so no "google searches"  seem necessary at this point.

And I'm not "anti-Muslimists" so go easy with your bogus, loaded terminology when I'm just asking a simple question from a supposed Muslim authrority about Islam.

And while we're at it, you show me where from any credible or legitimate  "christian"source that states that the BVM was first only 12 when she was married to St.Joesph or that the marriage was in any way "consumated".

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« Reply #476 on: April 05, 2013, 09:33:47 PM »

Quote
I'm sorry but  having sex with 9yr olds is universally taboo, no matter what century you're in, at least in European culture.

Then, it isn't, per definition, universal.

The question is how different cultures in different time periods may have defined things like pedophilia and rape. Muhammed and Aisha were married, therefore, it might have been seen as morally acceptable for them to have sex.

I am no scholar, so I can't say for sure if this is the case, but I don't think we can, or should, perceive historical event from our modern moral standpoints. Ethics and worldviews have changed tremendously over the centuries.
I don't care what their culture "accepts" or accepted, that is some sick, twisted crap.

Some old geezer bedding down with a nine year old is about as un-natural and sexually depraved as it gets.

You will never convince me or most normal thinking male adults that this kind of behavior is some how morally or historically "acceptable" no matter what time period or culture it's in.
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« Reply #477 on: April 05, 2013, 09:41:39 PM »

It was SOOO evil and horrible when those godless Muslims killed Orthodox Christians in their conquests and took young wives, but it was perfectly okay when those Papists killed Central and South American natives and bashed their heads against trees after baptizing them so they wouldn't grow up to be pagans  Roll Eyes

Was it ok when you made this up?
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« Reply #478 on: April 05, 2013, 10:26:53 PM »

And while we're at it, you show me where from any credible or legitimate  "christian"source that states that the BVM was first only 12 when she was married to St.Joesph or that the marriage was in any way "consumated".



BMV?Huh Wow.

OK.

See that bolded stuff. Everyone can play that game. You cherry pick what you think is Islam, then others can do the same for Christianity.
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« Reply #479 on: April 05, 2013, 10:31:05 PM »

In case you didn't bother to read the title of this thread, it's states "Feel free to ask me anything about Islam"....

And in case you didn't see my post, these regurgitated anti-Muslim and ill informed "questions" have been addressed ad nauseum pretty much everywhere to whatever degree you would like to delve into them.

Can't use google, then let me help you (a shorten URL which will take you to some answers to your question, it is so lazy I didn't even use "mohamed"):

http://bit.ly/16zogt9

 
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« Reply #480 on: April 05, 2013, 11:04:47 PM »

Remembering that Mohammed is the exemplar in all things for Moslems.

This is not the case either.

You are begging way too much.

Please substantiate your claims.
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« Reply #481 on: April 05, 2013, 11:36:56 PM »

How come all the Hadiths seem to promote and tolerate violence and immoral practices, whereas, when I read the Quran, it seems to be peaceful for the most part?

It depends on which hadiths you're reading.  Taking a hadith book and reading it without a qualified teacher can be very dangerous, especially if one is not aware of the social/historical context of the hadiths themselves.  And the hadiths are also divided into different categories: there are authentic hadiths, sound hadiths, weak hadiths, fabricated hadiths, etc.

I hate to ask such a general question, but I really can't offer much more as I don't know a lot about Islam, in any case . . .

Given the "problems" with the hadith, what do you make of the Koranist or Koran only trend in contemporary Islam.

When I was looking into Islamic hermeneutics, I was intrigued by this development and surprised by the incredible lack of sophistication of their critics to their approach to understanding the Koran and Islam. It is worse than how many critique so-called sola scriptura Protestants within Orthodoxy. It seemed to me few outside this development took serious the method of the Koranists and offered a proper critique.

I am sympathetic to the sola scriptura folks who are sincerely so, as their method for understanding Scripture is more nuanced than what their detractors would have you believe.

It also seemed that the Koranists were also as a whole more nuanced than their detractors would have you think. And less disperate in belief and practice than their detractors would have you think.

Any opinions of this seemingly new trend within Islam? Perhaps it is a perennial one.

Even though I have some problems with the traditional Muslim approach to hadith, I in no way advocate the sola scriptura attitude advocated by the self proclaimed "Quranists", since they reflect an overall modernist trend that seeks to change religion to fit completely in line with modern social/political norms.  That is a slippery slope and it could lead to a catastrophe that Protestant Christianity has become (that being said, the Salafis are already doing their part in creating more negative presentations of Islam with their despicable behavior, further feeding the idea that Islam is in need of reform).

The hadith are important in the sense that they provide us with some sort historical window, regardless of full blown accuracy, into how the Qur'an's dictates were implemented by the early community in their own unique circumstances.  In addition, there needs to be some link or connection to the Prophetic legacy - if the Qur'an was revealed to the Prophet, then he was its principal teacher (followed by his close companions and associates), and it's always important to have as much information as you can from that teacher in order to better understand the revealed text.

However, the problem lies in the fact that the collectors and scholars of hadith only examined the authenticity (or lack thereof) of the hadiths, they never bothered to study the social/historical contexts and specific occasions in which the sayings of the Prophet took place.  Let me give you an example: there are many hadiths where the Prophet advises believers to read/recite certain verses of the Qur'an on specific occasions to gain some sort of spiritual benefit - these admonitions probably took place in the midst of long conversations with his companions, perhaps even Qur'anic study circles inside the mosque.  However, when you read the isolated hadith itself in the hadith book, you'll never get that impression.  It's as if the Prophet just dropped along and suddenly made one admonition, and then walked away.  The initial narrator probably heard something in the conversation with Prophet that drew his/her attention, decided to quote it, and then pass it along to the following generations, but that only reflects that narrator's own subjective bias (and I don't mean that in a bad way).

What's unfortunate is that if you go through most of the hadith corpus, you'll find very little of the Prophet coming together with his companions to study the Qur'an - most of the hadiths are about actions or matters dealing in the social/political realm, a fact that most likely reflects the bias of the times in which they were compiled.  Even though many traditions were circulating well before that , the hadith books and schools of jurisprudence solidified during and after the Abbassid Revolution.  To think that politics in any way did not interfere in what was emphasized in these collections would be a little naive.  Even the famous Ibn Ishaq biography of the Prophet (which Robert Spencer and co love to use) was compiled during this era, and nowhere in that biography of Muhammad will you ever find an explanation of his life as the Messenger of God - it simply recounts his life as a hero-warrior.  This shows me that some of the Muslims of that time were more interested in statecraft and political matters rather than the spiritual dimension of the faith, which would later explain the rise of the Sufi brotherhoods (who themselves claim to be heirs to Muhammad's legacy, albeit in a different way).

When it comes to the Qur'an, there needs to be a proper methodology to go about examining and interpreting the text, and I think some of the jurists in Islam's have not done a very good job at establishing one - they treated the Qur'an more like a legal manual to back up this or that fatwa, even though the Qur'an's legal dimension is very miniscule in relation to other parts of the text.

Only in the heavyweights, like Rumi or Ghazali (and a few others), do you see a very strong emphasis on the Qur'an. These two men were jurists before they became Sufis, and the works they produced after their turn to spiritual sciences show how central the Qur'an was to their way of thinking.  They did not reject their juristic legacies by any means, but they came to realize that for too long, Muslims placed too much of an emphasis on the law at the expense of its spirit.

In a way, you can say that Islam's problem is a pharisaic one.
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« Reply #482 on: April 05, 2013, 11:39:18 PM »

This bears a curious resemblance to the teachings of (Hassidic?) Judaism on the subject of pegam habrit (literally, "the defilement of the covenant" - brit here also means the organ that bears the mark of the covenant):

http://www.briskodesh.org/pages/bris/spilling-seed.htm

http://www.truekabbalah.org/pages/Documents4/k00215.htm

Thank you very much Romaios for these insightful links!  It amazes me just how much knowledge is in the Abrahamic religions that is hidden and waiting to be rediscovered.  Most of what these links say I agree in regards to the truth it discusses-- although I don't think the lives of the jinns depends solely on the lust we let out.  I believe that jinns can live off of other things-- but our sins is like a 'drug' to them, and that's why they constantly come at us and whisper negative thoughts.  This is why so many people have addictions and don't understand why.

I don't know if you ever heard story like this.. but there are many females here in the west, who are miserable and lost their self-esteem because when they were young -- in highschool years, they got into relationships very early.  Their male partner put so much 'peer-pressure' and deception to have them fornicate.  The male partner even goes as far as lying to her that they will marry in the future.  But once they fornicated, the male friend never contacts her every again.  They keep asking themselves why this male friend of their left them after they fornicated and she lost her virginity to him.  She becomes so miserable, has so much pain in her heart, and keeps having negative thoughts with future relationships.  What these misguided females don't understand is that the jinns have been running their relationship from the onset-- most likely controlling their male partner (through lust) to push them to commit this sin. When this sin occurs, the jinns enjoy a very powerful negative energy....while the antichrist benifits--who wants to push misery, disorder and poverty into our society.

Quote
What might make Shi'a Islam more appealing to James is the possibility of contracting a temporary marriage. Maybe fibonacci could tell us more about this.

Not all shia's accept this type of marriage.  Personally I don't accept this type of marriage if it is for lustful/sexual purposes.  If it is only to financially take care of a husbandless female for a temproary amount of time... like at times of war or economic suffering then yes it's okay.  Remember an unmarried female and unmarried male who are not from the same family, can not live together.  This temp marriage can be a contract to allow such an arrangement.
How many wives did Muhammed have? How old was Aisha, his third wife, when they got married?
The real question is, just how old was she when they "consumated" the marriage.
I'm still waiting for my answer.

Was your "prophet" a paedophile or not?

To answer your question in short, no, Muhammad was not a pedophile.  If you actually look up the psychological profile of a pedophile and look into the historical sources chronicling aspects of Muhammad’s life, you’ll see that he does not fit the bill (even if you go by the idea that he was a violent warrior).

Also, the issue of Aisha’s age is still debated amongst Muslims to this very day – there are those who claim that there is evidence to show that she was indeed older, anywhere from 14-19, and others abide by the age 9 claim.  The consensus, however, is that the marriage was reportedly consummated when she reached puberty. 

I have also heard one other theory – that some young women at that time began counting their age AFTER they hit puberty.  But I have no way of verifying that, so I’ll just leave it.

Even if Muhammad was indeed this sick, pervert that people make him out to be, wouldn’t you think Aisha’s father, Abu Bakr, who also happened to be Muhammad’s best friend, would have done something about it?  At least protested or gave some inclination that he found his best friend’s behavior to be dubious?  And not to mention all of Muhammad’s many other followers and contemporaries, who still, upon his death, considered him to be a moral and trustworthy man?

As someone else here mentioned, Aisha did not bear any children, and we know for a fact that Muhammad was not sterile when he was married to her, since Mariyah the Copt bore him a son, who later died in infancy.  All of his other children were from Khadija (a woman who was reportedly 15 years his senior when she married him), and with the exception of one daughter, they all died before his death.

To think that a lying scoundrel and a terrorist pedophile can establish a religion that ends up having a billion adherents is not only historically unsound, but in my opinion, it just represents a bad opinion of God.  Falsehood cannot be upheld for this long to this capacity, no matter how violent or crazy its followers can be considered to be.

No one has to or is obligated to accept Muhammad as a prophet – if he was a prophet, which I believe he was, then God is sufficient as a witness.  If other Muslims are not secure enough within their own faith to leave it at that, then that’s their problem, not mine.  Same goes for non-Muslims.

Legitimate criticism is one thing, but unrealistic labeling of a historical individual is another.
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« Reply #483 on: April 05, 2013, 11:44:04 PM »

Remembering that Mohammed is the exemplar in all things for Moslems.

Partially true in theory, but which Muhammad are we talking about?  Different groups of Muslims will all paint different pictures of Muhammad that they latch onto as their model, so to speak.

And I've heard the argument that the jihadis of today can find examples in Muhammad's life to support their claims, but here's the problem - this isn't 7th century Arabia populated by disunited pagan tribes, and their armies aren't being led by an actual leader who can claim any kind of divine guidance.  Not to mention that warfare in the Prophet's time always had a specific objective and purpose, and was not intended for wanton wholesale chaos, murder, and destruction.  Self defense is one thing, but the methodology of these jihadi idiots is flawed and unsound, and their abysmal behavior across the globe more than shows that.  At their very core, they are nihilistic anarchists who don't know how to react to the conditions of the post-modern world, and unfortunately, they don't realize the very spiritual disease that lies deep within their hearts.
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« Reply #484 on: April 05, 2013, 11:47:08 PM »

What is your opinion of the recently issued Fatwa allowing rape of non-Sunni women in Syria? The following article also makes the point that in historical Islam such a practice is hardly an aberration; can you comment on this issue as well?

Quote from: Raymond Ibriham
Human Events
New Fatwa Permits Rape of Non-Sunni Women in Syria

Yet another Islamic cleric recently made it permissible for the Islamic fighters waging a jihad in Syria—politely known as “the opposition”—to rape the nation’s women.

‘Ajlawni: Justifying rape in Islam’s name

Salafi Sheikh Yasir al-‘Ajlawni, a Jordanian of origin who earlier lived in Damascus, Syria for 17 years, posted a YouTube video last week where he said he was preparing to issue a “legitimate fatwa” making it legal (in the eyes of Islam) for those Muslims fighting to topple secular president Bashar Assad and install Sharia law to “capture and have sex with” all non-Sunni women, specifically naming Assad’s own sect, the Alawites, as well as the Druze and several others, in short, all non-Sunnis and non-Muslims.
READ MORE HERE

Well, the key word in this disgusting fatwa is "Salafi".  I can go on a whole diatribe of what this satanic cult really is, but then again, I don't want to engage in foul language, so I'll just leave it at that.  The only reason why they have become so powerful is because of the petrodollars from Saudi Arabia that funds them and their sick ideology.  The Salafis are one of the main reasons why Christians have it so bad in Egypt and why that country in particular is falling apart.

As for Raymond Ibrahim, you do realize that he is not the most unbiased source of information on Islam, right?  I mean, I can understand the guy's anger, given his background and all, but at this point, it seems like he has more of a personal axe to grind with Muslims rather than pursue a serious, scholarly enterprise.  People like him and Robert Spencer only exacerbate the problem, not make it better.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2013, 12:09:29 AM by essene19 » Logged
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« Reply #485 on: April 05, 2013, 11:55:06 PM »

- The concept of abrogation is a concept popular amongst both Islamists and detractors of Islam - there is this idea that later verses annul or abolish earlier, more peaceful verses.  I find this to be a completely erroneous idea, and the fact that Muslim scholars throughout the centuries have never been able to agree on which verses are abrogated or not further proves the shaky foundations of the doctrine.
It is interesting to hear the claim that abrogation (i.e. newer revelations override the older ones) is erroneous. Abrogation is affirmed by many prominent scholars of Islam who argue that without abrogation there would be logical contradictions in the Quran,[1] and that furthermore it is explicitly taught by the Quran, multiple times in fact.

"Many verses counsel patience in the face of the mockery of the unbelievers, while other verses incite to warfare against the unbelievers. The former are linked to the [chronologically anterior] Meccan phase of the mission when the Muslims were too few and weak to do other than endure insult; the latter are linked to Medina where the Prophet had acquired the numbers and the strength to hit back at his enemies. The discrepancy between the two sets of verses indicates that different situations call for different regulations."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naskh_(tafsir)

Quote from: Abrogation in Islam / Middle East Quarterly
Four verses in the Qu'ran acknowledge or justify abrogation:

    When we cancel a message, or throw it into oblivion, we replace it with one better or one similar. Do you not know that God has power over all things?[10]
    When we replace a message with another, and God knows best what he reveals, they say: You have made it up. Yet, most of them do not know.[11]
    God abrogates or confirms whatsoever he will, for he has with him the Book of the Books.[12]
    If we pleased, we could take away what we have revealed to you. Then you will not find anyone to plead for it with us.[13]
__________
[9] Bell, Introduction to the Qur'an, pp. 86-107; Arthur Jeffery, Islam: Muhammad and His Religion (Indianapolis: Bobbs-Merrill, 1958), p. 66.
[10] Qur. 2:106.
[11] Qur. 16:101.
[12] Qur. 13:39.
[13] Qur. 17:86.


David Bukay “Peace or Jihad? Abrogation in Islam,” Middle East Quarterly, VOL XIV, NO. 4, Fall 2007, pp. 3-11
http://www.meforum.org/1754/peace-or-jihad-abrogation-in-islam#_ftnref14  
 

Question: if as seems to be the case rejection of abrogation is "outside the mainstream and, perhaps even the religion itself" (Bukay, op cit) the rejection of abrogation no less than the fact you mentioned that Muslim scholars have never been able to agree on which verses were abrogated seems to suggest not the nature of Islam (singular) but Islams (plural). If the mainstream of historical Islam and Islamic jurists is wrong and is unable to present a unified view why should we suppose some fellow on the internet represents True Islam? (perhaps your variety might be an instance of a "prettier face," but if it is a fringe viewpoint at the very least it does not abrogate the problems associated with the doctrine of abrogation for the non-Muslim world in mainstream and historical Islam.

Quote from: Abrogation in Islam / Middle East Quarterly
"Most scholars divide the Qur'an into verses revealed by Muhammad in Mecca when his community of followers was weak and more inclined to compromise, and those revealed in Medina, where Muhammad's strength grew. Classical scholars argued that anyone who studied the Qur'an without having mastered the doctrine of abrogation would be "deficient."[15] Those who do not accept abrogation fall outside the mainstream and, perhaps, even the religion itself. The Ahmadiyah sect, for example, today concentrated in Pakistan, consistently rejects abrogation because it undercuts the notion that the Qur'an is free from errors.[16] Many Muslims consider Ahmadis, who also see their founder as a prophet, to be apostates.
_____________________
[14] John Burton, The Encyclopedia of Islam, vol. 7, s.v. "Naskh," p. 1010.
[15] Abu al-Kasim Hibat-Allah Ibn Salama, An-Nasikh wal-Mansukh (Cairo: Dar al-Ma'arif, 1966), pp. 4-5, 123. On pp. 142-3, he lists the abrogated verses. See also pp. 7, 11, 26-7, 37, 46.
[16] Maulana Muhammad Ali, The Religion of Islam (Lahore: Ahmadiyya Anjuman Isha'at Islam, 2005), p. 32; Ahmad bin Muhammad al-Nahhas, An-Nasikh Wal-Mansukh (Cairo: Maktabat ‘Alam al-Fikr, 1986), pp. 2-3.


David Bukay “Peace or Jihad? Abrogation in Islam,” Middle East Quarterly, VOL XIV, NO. 4, Fall 2007, pp. 3-11
http://www.meforum.org/1754/peace-or-jihad-abrogation-in-islam#_ftnref14  

Thanks for your replies; I will ask more on the topic of friendship in a bit, also with attention to the way the issue plays out historiographically and in contemporary Islamic scholarship and culture in addition to individual examples of dissent which however more conciliatory and attractive they indeed may be, do not seem to represent the mainstream thus defined regardless of presentations by e.g. popular apologists.
__________
[1]


Just off the top of my head, I can think of Muhammad Asad as someone who rejected the theory of abrogation, and his reasoning is quite convincing.  If you look at this scholarly credentials, you'll see that he studied enough to know what he is talking about.

And how would you define the Islamic mainstream?  Do you think that any ordinary believer out on the street in a Muslim country even knows what the theory of abrogation is?  If I asked all the worshipers at my local mosque, all of whom pray 5 times a day, what the theory of abrogation was, they wouldn't even know what I'm talking about.  The books of the jurists was by no means mainstream, and they are, to this day, the domain of Islam's more scholarly class, not lay believers.

According to Hamza Yusuf, there are only 4 verses in the Qur'an supposedly over which there are no differences of opinion regarding abrogration, (I believe it was the verses about alcohol, I'll have to read up on it) - all the others have been up for debate.  The fact that Muslim scholar have been debating this for centuries without much of a consensus shows how problematic the theory is.  Even someone like Ibn Taymiyya presented a more nuanced approach, saying that if the historical circumstances of a certain verse became applicable once again, then it is that verse that applies, not a later verse.

Based on my own study and observation, I don't buy the theory of abrogation, and unless I see some really convincing evidence, I never will.  And I don't consider myself to be an apologist in any way, shape, or form.
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« Reply #486 on: April 06, 2013, 01:25:43 AM »

- The concept of abrogation is a concept popular amongst both Islamists and detractors of Islam - there is this idea that later verses annul or abolish earlier, more peaceful verses.  I find this to be a completely erroneous idea, and the fact that Muslim scholars throughout the centuries have never been able to agree on which verses are abrogated or not further proves the shaky foundations of the doctrine.
It is interesting to hear the claim that abrogation (i.e. newer revelations override the older ones) is erroneous. Abrogation is affirmed by many prominent scholars of Islam who argue that without abrogation there would be logical contradictions in the Quran,[1] and that furthermore it is explicitly taught by the Quran, multiple times in fact.

"Many verses counsel patience in the face of the mockery of the unbelievers, while other verses incite to warfare against the unbelievers. The former are linked to the [chronologically anterior] Meccan phase of the mission when the Muslims were too few and weak to do other than endure insult; the latter are linked to Medina where the Prophet had acquired the numbers and the strength to hit back at his enemies. The discrepancy between the two sets of verses indicates that different situations call for different regulations."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naskh_(tafsir)

Quote from: Abrogation in Islam / Middle East Quarterly
Four verses in the Qu'ran acknowledge or justify abrogation:

    When we cancel a message, or throw it into oblivion, we replace it with one better or one similar. Do you not know that God has power over all things?[10]
    When we replace a message with another, and God knows best what he reveals, they say: You have made it up. Yet, most of them do not know.[11]
    God abrogates or confirms whatsoever he will, for he has with him the Book of the Books.[12]
    If we pleased, we could take away what we have revealed to you. Then you will not find anyone to plead for it with us.[13]
__________
[9] Bell, Introduction to the Qur'an, pp. 86-107; Arthur Jeffery, Islam: Muhammad and His Religion (Indianapolis: Bobbs-Merrill, 1958), p. 66.
[10] Qur. 2:106.
[11] Qur. 16:101.
[12] Qur. 13:39.
[13] Qur. 17:86.


David Bukay “Peace or Jihad? Abrogation in Islam,” Middle East Quarterly, VOL XIV, NO. 4, Fall 2007, pp. 3-11
http://www.meforum.org/1754/peace-or-jihad-abrogation-in-islam#_ftnref14  
 

Question: if as seems to be the case rejection of abrogation is "outside the mainstream and, perhaps even the religion itself" (Bukay, op cit) the rejection of abrogation no less than the fact you mentioned that Muslim scholars have never been able to agree on which verses were abrogated seems to suggest not the nature of Islam (singular) but Islams (plural). If the mainstream of historical Islam and Islamic jurists is wrong and is unable to present a unified view why should we suppose some fellow on the internet represents True Islam? (perhaps your variety might be an instance of a "prettier face," but if it is a fringe viewpoint at the very least it does not abrogate the problems associated with the doctrine of abrogation for the non-Muslim world in mainstream and historical Islam.

Quote from: Abrogation in Islam / Middle East Quarterly
"Most scholars divide the Qur'an into verses revealed by Muhammad in Mecca when his community of followers was weak and more inclined to compromise, and those revealed in Medina, where Muhammad's strength grew. Classical scholars argued that anyone who studied the Qur'an without having mastered the doctrine of abrogation would be "deficient."[15] Those who do not accept abrogation fall outside the mainstream and, perhaps, even the religion itself. The Ahmadiyah sect, for example, today concentrated in Pakistan, consistently rejects abrogation because it undercuts the notion that the Qur'an is free from errors.[16] Many Muslims consider Ahmadis, who also see their founder as a prophet, to be apostates.
_____________________
[14] John Burton, The Encyclopedia of Islam, vol. 7, s.v. "Naskh," p. 1010.
[15] Abu al-Kasim Hibat-Allah Ibn Salama, An-Nasikh wal-Mansukh (Cairo: Dar al-Ma'arif, 1966), pp. 4-5, 123. On pp. 142-3, he lists the abrogated verses. See also pp. 7, 11, 26-7, 37, 46.
[16] Maulana Muhammad Ali, The Religion of Islam (Lahore: Ahmadiyya Anjuman Isha'at Islam, 2005), p. 32; Ahmad bin Muhammad al-Nahhas, An-Nasikh Wal-Mansukh (Cairo: Maktabat ‘Alam al-Fikr, 1986), pp. 2-3.


David Bukay “Peace or Jihad? Abrogation in Islam,” Middle East Quarterly, VOL XIV, NO. 4, Fall 2007, pp. 3-11
http://www.meforum.org/1754/peace-or-jihad-abrogation-in-islam#_ftnref14  

Thanks for your replies; I will ask more on the topic of friendship in a bit, also with attention to the way the issue plays out historiographically and in contemporary Islamic scholarship and culture in addition to individual examples of dissent which however more conciliatory and attractive they indeed may be, do not seem to represent the mainstream thus defined regardless of presentations by e.g. popular apologists.
__________
[1]


Just off the top of my head, I can think of Muhammad Asad as someone who rejected the theory of abrogation, and his reasoning is quite convincing.  If you look at this scholarly credentials, you'll see that he studied enough to know what he is talking about.

And how would you define the Islamic mainstream?  Do you think that any ordinary believer out on the street in a Muslim country even knows what the theory of abrogation is?  If I asked all the worshipers at my local mosque, all of whom pray 5 times a day, what the theory of abrogation was, they wouldn't even know what I'm talking about.  The books of the jurists was by no means mainstream, and they are, to this day, the domain of Islam's more scholarly class, not lay believers.

According to Hamza Yusuf, there are only 4 verses in the Qur'an supposedly over which there are no differences of opinion regarding abrogration, (I believe it was the verses about alcohol, I'll have to read up on it) - all the others have been up for debate.  The fact that Muslim scholar have been debating this for centuries without much of a consensus shows how problematic the theory is.  Even someone like Ibn Taymiyya presented a more nuanced approach, saying that if the historical circumstances of a certain verse became applicable once again, then it is that verse that applies, not a later verse.

Based on my own study and observation, I don't buy the theory of abrogation, and unless I see some really convincing evidence, I never will.  And I don't consider myself to be an apologist in any way, shape, or form.

Which branch or form of Islam do you practice?   Were you raised Muslim or did you convert?  If you are a convert, did you convert in the United States or a western country?  

I'm sorry if you've already mentioned that somewhere and I missed it.  

I will test your theory about abrogration out on my Shia friend and see what he says.  He comes from a Sunni dominated country. 
« Last Edit: April 06, 2013, 01:31:17 AM by Velsigne » Logged
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« Reply #487 on: April 06, 2013, 06:28:24 AM »

And while we're at it, you show me where from any credible or legitimate  "christian"source that states that the BVM was first only 12 when she was married to St.Joesph or that the marriage was in any way "consumated".



BMV?Huh Wow.

OK.

See that bolded stuff. Everyone can play that game. You cherry pick what you think is Islam, then others can do the same for Christianity.
What the heck is BMV?  Huh

I'm not cherrypicking nothing, Aisha's age is well documented amongst Islamic scholars, the age of the Blessed Mother of Christ is not.

Neither is the fact that she "consumated" anything with St. Joesph.

No games here Ortho, just getting at the truth.
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« Reply #488 on: April 06, 2013, 06:35:05 AM »

In case you didn't bother to read the title of this thread, it's states "Feel free to ask me anything about Islam"....

And in case you didn't see my post, these regurgitated anti-Muslim and ill informed "questions" have been addressed ad nauseum pretty much everywhere to whatever degree you would like to delve into them.

Can't use google, then let me help you (a shorten URL which will take you to some answers to your question, it is so lazy I didn't even use "mohamed"):

http://bit.ly/16zogt9

 
Go do your own homework, I'll let the Muslim do his best in explaining these things since he made the offer to begin with.

And no, I'm not going back 11 pages look for answers that might be buried in a sea of rhetoric.

Better yet, why don't you start a thread defending the desert prophet and the accusations surrounding him concerning pedophilia if you're so sure it's a bunch of "anti-Muslim" propaganda.
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« Reply #489 on: April 06, 2013, 06:38:33 AM »

This bears a curious resemblance to the teachings of (Hassidic?) Judaism on the subject of pegam habrit (literally, "the defilement of the covenant" - brit here also means the organ that bears the mark of the covenant):

http://www.briskodesh.org/pages/bris/spilling-seed.htm

http://www.truekabbalah.org/pages/Documents4/k00215.htm

Thank you very much Romaios for these insightful links!  It amazes me just how much knowledge is in the Abrahamic religions that is hidden and waiting to be rediscovered.  Most of what these links say I agree in regards to the truth it discusses-- although I don't think the lives of the jinns depends solely on the lust we let out.  I believe that jinns can live off of other things-- but our sins is like a 'drug' to them, and that's why they constantly come at us and whisper negative thoughts.  This is why so many people have addictions and don't understand why.

I don't know if you ever heard story like this.. but there are many females here in the west, who are miserable and lost their self-esteem because when they were young -- in highschool years, they got into relationships very early.  Their male partner put so much 'peer-pressure' and deception to have them fornicate.  The male partner even goes as far as lying to her that they will marry in the future.  But once they fornicated, the male friend never contacts her every again.  They keep asking themselves why this male friend of their left them after they fornicated and she lost her virginity to him.  She becomes so miserable, has so much pain in her heart, and keeps having negative thoughts with future relationships.  What these misguided females don't understand is that the jinns have been running their relationship from the onset-- most likely controlling their male partner (through lust) to push them to commit this sin. When this sin occurs, the jinns enjoy a very powerful negative energy....while the antichrist benifits--who wants to push misery, disorder and poverty into our society.

Quote
What might make Shi'a Islam more appealing to James is the possibility of contracting a temporary marriage. Maybe fibonacci could tell us more about this.

Not all shia's accept this type of marriage.  Personally I don't accept this type of marriage if it is for lustful/sexual purposes.  If it is only to financially take care of a husbandless female for a temproary amount of time... like at times of war or economic suffering then yes it's okay.  Remember an unmarried female and unmarried male who are not from the same family, can not live together.  This temp marriage can be a contract to allow such an arrangement.
How many wives did Muhammed have? How old was Aisha, his third wife, when they got married?
The real question is, just how old was she when they "consumated" the marriage.
I'm still waiting for my answer.

Was your "prophet" a paedophile or not?

To answer your question in short, no, Muhammad was not a pedophile.  If you actually look up the psychological profile of a pedophile and look into the historical sources chronicling aspects of Muhammad’s life, you’ll see that he does not fit the bill (even if you go by the idea that he was a violent warrior).

Also, the issue of Aisha’s age is still debated amongst Muslims to this very day – there are those who claim that there is evidence to show that she was indeed older, anywhere from 14-19, and others abide by the age 9 claim.  The consensus, however, is that the marriage was reportedly consummated when she reached puberty. 

I have also heard one other theory – that some young women at that time began counting their age AFTER they hit puberty.  But I have no way of verifying that, so I’ll just leave it.

Even if Muhammad was indeed this sick, pervert that people make him out to be, wouldn’t you think Aisha’s father, Abu Bakr, who also happened to be Muhammad’s best friend, would have done something about it?  At least protested or gave some inclination that he found his best friend’s behavior to be dubious?  And not to mention all of Muhammad’s many other followers and contemporaries, who still, upon his death, considered him to be a moral and trustworthy man?

As someone else here mentioned, Aisha did not bear any children, and we know for a fact that Muhammad was not sterile when he was married to her, since Mariyah the Copt bore him a son, who later died in infancy.  All of his other children were from Khadija (a woman who was reportedly 15 years his senior when she married him), and with the exception of one daughter, they all died before his death.

To think that a lying scoundrel and a terrorist pedophile can establish a religion that ends up having a billion adherents is not only historically unsound, but in my opinion, it just represents a bad opinion of God.  Falsehood cannot be upheld for this long to this capacity, no matter how violent or crazy its followers can be considered to be.

No one has to or is obligated to accept Muhammad as a prophet – if he was a prophet, which I believe he was, then God is sufficient as a witness.  If other Muslims are not secure enough within their own faith to leave it at that, then that’s their problem, not mine.  Same goes for non-Muslims.

Legitimate criticism is one thing, but unrealistic labeling of a historical individual is another.
Thanks Essene, some valid points here. I will dissect it later and have some feedback when I have the time.

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« Reply #490 on: April 06, 2013, 08:58:13 AM »

- The concept of abrogation is a concept popular amongst both Islamists and detractors of Islam - there is this idea that later verses annul or abolish earlier, more peaceful verses.  I find this to be a completely erroneous idea, and the fact that Muslim scholars throughout the centuries have never been able to agree on which verses are abrogated or not further proves the shaky foundations of the doctrine.
It is interesting to hear the claim that abrogation (i.e. newer revelations override the older ones) is erroneous. Abrogation is affirmed by many prominent scholars of Islam who argue that without abrogation there would be logical contradictions in the Quran,[1] and that furthermore it is explicitly taught by the Quran, multiple times in fact.

"Many verses counsel patience in the face of the mockery of the unbelievers, while other verses incite to warfare against the unbelievers. The former are linked to the [chronologically anterior] Meccan phase of the mission when the Muslims were too few and weak to do other than endure insult; the latter are linked to Medina where the Prophet had acquired the numbers and the strength to hit back at his enemies. The discrepancy between the two sets of verses indicates that different situations call for different regulations."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naskh_(tafsir)

Quote from: Abrogation in Islam / Middle East Quarterly
Four verses in the Qu'ran acknowledge or justify abrogation:

    When we cancel a message, or throw it into oblivion, we replace it with one better or one similar. Do you not know that God has power over all things?[10]
    When we replace a message with another, and God knows best what he reveals, they say: You have made it up. Yet, most of them do not know.[11]
    God abrogates or confirms whatsoever he will, for he has with him the Book of the Books.[12]
    If we pleased, we could take away what we have revealed to you. Then you will not find anyone to plead for it with us.[13]
__________
[9] Bell, Introduction to the Qur'an, pp. 86-107; Arthur Jeffery, Islam: Muhammad and His Religion (Indianapolis: Bobbs-Merrill, 1958), p. 66.
[10] Qur. 2:106.
[11] Qur. 16:101.
[12] Qur. 13:39.
[13] Qur. 17:86.


David Bukay “Peace or Jihad? Abrogation in Islam,” Middle East Quarterly, VOL XIV, NO. 4, Fall 2007, pp. 3-11
http://www.meforum.org/1754/peace-or-jihad-abrogation-in-islam#_ftnref14  
 

Question: if as seems to be the case rejection of abrogation is "outside the mainstream and, perhaps even the religion itself" (Bukay, op cit) the rejection of abrogation no less than the fact you mentioned that Muslim scholars have never been able to agree on which verses were abrogated seems to suggest not the nature of Islam (singular) but Islams (plural). If the mainstream of historical Islam and Islamic jurists is wrong and is unable to present a unified view why should we suppose some fellow on the internet represents True Islam? (perhaps your variety might be an instance of a "prettier face," but if it is a fringe viewpoint at the very least it does not abrogate the problems associated with the doctrine of abrogation for the non-Muslim world in mainstream and historical Islam.

Quote from: Abrogation in Islam / Middle East Quarterly
"Most scholars divide the Qur'an into verses revealed by Muhammad in Mecca when his community of followers was weak and more inclined to compromise, and those revealed in Medina, where Muhammad's strength grew. Classical scholars argued that anyone who studied the Qur'an without having mastered the doctrine of abrogation would be "deficient."[15] Those who do not accept abrogation fall outside the mainstream and, perhaps, even the religion itself. The Ahmadiyah sect, for example, today concentrated in Pakistan, consistently rejects abrogation because it undercuts the notion that the Qur'an is free from errors.[16] Many Muslims consider Ahmadis, who also see their founder as a prophet, to be apostates.
_____________________
[14] John Burton, The Encyclopedia of Islam, vol. 7, s.v. "Naskh," p. 1010.
[15] Abu al-Kasim Hibat-Allah Ibn Salama, An-Nasikh wal-Mansukh (Cairo: Dar al-Ma'arif, 1966), pp. 4-5, 123. On pp. 142-3, he lists the abrogated verses. See also pp. 7, 11, 26-7, 37, 46.
[16] Maulana Muhammad Ali, The Religion of Islam (Lahore: Ahmadiyya Anjuman Isha'at Islam, 2005), p. 32; Ahmad bin Muhammad al-Nahhas, An-Nasikh Wal-Mansukh (Cairo: Maktabat ‘Alam al-Fikr, 1986), pp. 2-3.


David Bukay “Peace or Jihad? Abrogation in Islam,” Middle East Quarterly, VOL XIV, NO. 4, Fall 2007, pp. 3-11
http://www.meforum.org/1754/peace-or-jihad-abrogation-in-islam#_ftnref14  

Thanks for your replies; I will ask more on the topic of friendship in a bit, also with attention to the way the issue plays out historiographically and in contemporary Islamic scholarship and culture in addition to individual examples of dissent which however more conciliatory and attractive they indeed may be, do not seem to represent the mainstream thus defined regardless of presentations by e.g. popular apologists.
__________
[1]


Just off the top of my head, I can think of Muhammad Asad as someone who rejected the theory of abrogation, and his reasoning is quite convincing.  If you look at this scholarly credentials, you'll see that he studied enough to know what he is talking about.

And how would you define the Islamic mainstream?  Do you think that any ordinary believer out on the street in a Muslim country even knows what the theory of abrogation is?  If I asked all the worshipers at my local mosque, all of whom pray 5 times a day, what the theory of abrogation was, they wouldn't even know what I'm talking about.  The books of the jurists was by no means mainstream, and they are, to this day, the domain of Islam's more scholarly class, not lay believers.

According to Hamza Yusuf, there are only 4 verses in the Qur'an supposedly over which there are no differences of opinion regarding abrogration, (I believe it was the verses about alcohol, I'll have to read up on it) - all the others have been up for debate.  The fact that Muslim scholar have been debating this for centuries without much of a consensus shows how problematic the theory is.  Even someone like Ibn Taymiyya presented a more nuanced approach, saying that if the historical circumstances of a certain verse became applicable once again, then it is that verse that applies, not a later verse.

Based on my own study and observation, I don't buy the theory of abrogation, and unless I see some really convincing evidence, I never will.  And I don't consider myself to be an apologist in any way, shape, or form.

Which branch or form of Islam do you practice?   Were you raised Muslim or did you convert?  If you are a convert, did you convert in the United States or a western country?  

I'm sorry if you've already mentioned that somewhere and I missed it.  

I will test your theory about abrogration out on my Shia friend and see what he says.  He comes from a Sunni dominated country. 

I was born and raised Muslim, and I come from a Sunni background.
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« Reply #491 on: April 06, 2013, 09:33:22 AM »

To think that a lying scoundrel and a terrorist pedophile can establish a religion that ends up having a billion adherents is not only historically unsound, but in my opinion, it just represents a bad opinion of God.  Falsehood cannot be upheld for this long to this capacity, no matter how violent or crazy its followers can be considered to be.

I don't see why not. Looking at Christian history, we find plenty of heresies that have persisted into the modern day despite being even older than Islam, for instance Sabellianism and Arianism (though the people professing them have likely never heard these terms). Never underestimate the power of bad theology delivered to people that can't understand or accept good theology. In fact, I have read more than one sympathetic treatment of the history of Islam that predicated its domination of the Christian East on its relatively simple theology in comparison to the doctrines of Christianity, i.e., that at least some people may have accepted Islam not by force but by reasoning that it was in a sense a "simpler" form of Christianity (and I could see how they could think that, given the stress that Muhammad put early on in his career on this "your Lord and my Lord" business, when he was still trying to gain the acceptance of the mostly non-Muslim populace). Of course, we know that it isn't, but not everyone is as clever as the modern person.

So I'm going to have to disagree with you here. In the case of Islam, falsehood has 'held up' for 1400+ years, and shows no sign of going away any time soon. Lord have mercy. It doesn't present a bad opinion of God, either. When someone is wrong but considers themselves or their religion to be God-inspired or directed, it's not God's fault that they are delusional and wrong. Only if you take the view that God has to personally stamp out every wrong idea does it reflect badly on God that wrong ideas persist, but I would hope that Christians at least have a more nuanced view of things than that. Without it, I'd think we would all fall pray to atheistic arguments about why God doesn't heal everyone, why good things happen to bad people, and all manner of other things that it's not God's responsibility to fix for us just because we don't like them.
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« Reply #492 on: April 06, 2013, 10:34:28 AM »

- The concept of abrogation is a concept popular amongst both Islamists and detractors of Islam - there is this idea that later verses annul or abolish earlier, more peaceful verses.  I find this to be a completely erroneous idea, and the fact that Muslim scholars throughout the centuries have never been able to agree on which verses are abrogated or not further proves the shaky foundations of the doctrine.
It is interesting to hear the claim that abrogation (i.e. newer revelations override the older ones) is erroneous. Abrogation is affirmed by many prominent scholars of Islam who argue that without abrogation there would be logical contradictions in the Quran,[1] and that furthermore it is explicitly taught by the Quran, multiple times in fact.

"Many verses counsel patience in the face of the mockery of the unbelievers, while other verses incite to warfare against the unbelievers. The former are linked to the [chronologically anterior] Meccan phase of the mission when the Muslims were too few and weak to do other than endure insult; the latter are linked to Medina where the Prophet had acquired the numbers and the strength to hit back at his enemies. The discrepancy between the two sets of verses indicates that different situations call for different regulations."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naskh_(tafsir)

Quote from: Abrogation in Islam / Middle East Quarterly
Four verses in the Qu'ran acknowledge or justify abrogation:

    When we cancel a message, or throw it into oblivion, we replace it with one better or one similar. Do you not know that God has power over all things?[10]
    When we replace a message with another, and God knows best what he reveals, they say: You have made it up. Yet, most of them do not know.[11]
    God abrogates or confirms whatsoever he will, for he has with him the Book of the Books.[12]
    If we pleased, we could take away what we have revealed to you. Then you will not find anyone to plead for it with us.[13]
__________
[9] Bell, Introduction to the Qur'an, pp. 86-107; Arthur Jeffery, Islam: Muhammad and His Religion (Indianapolis: Bobbs-Merrill, 1958), p. 66.
[10] Qur. 2:106.
[11] Qur. 16:101.
[12] Qur. 13:39.
[13] Qur. 17:86.


David Bukay “Peace or Jihad? Abrogation in Islam,” Middle East Quarterly, VOL XIV, NO. 4, Fall 2007, pp. 3-11
http://www.meforum.org/1754/peace-or-jihad-abrogation-in-islam#_ftnref14  
 

Question: if as seems to be the case rejection of abrogation is "outside the mainstream and, perhaps even the religion itself" (Bukay, op cit) the rejection of abrogation no less than the fact you mentioned that Muslim scholars have never been able to agree on which verses were abrogated seems to suggest not the nature of Islam (singular) but Islams (plural). If the mainstream of historical Islam and Islamic jurists is wrong and is unable to present a unified view why should we suppose some fellow on the internet represents True Islam? (perhaps your variety might be an instance of a "prettier face," but if it is a fringe viewpoint at the very least it does not abrogate the problems associated with the doctrine of abrogation for the non-Muslim world in mainstream and historical Islam.

Quote from: Abrogation in Islam / Middle East Quarterly
"Most scholars divide the Qur'an into verses revealed by Muhammad in Mecca when his community of followers was weak and more inclined to compromise, and those revealed in Medina, where Muhammad's strength grew. Classical scholars argued that anyone who studied the Qur'an without having mastered the doctrine of abrogation would be "deficient."[15] Those who do not accept abrogation fall outside the mainstream and, perhaps, even the religion itself. The Ahmadiyah sect, for example, today concentrated in Pakistan, consistently rejects abrogation because it undercuts the notion that the Qur'an is free from errors.[16] Many Muslims consider Ahmadis, who also see their founder as a prophet, to be apostates.
_____________________
[14] John Burton, The Encyclopedia of Islam, vol. 7, s.v. "Naskh," p. 1010.
[15] Abu al-Kasim Hibat-Allah Ibn Salama, An-Nasikh wal-Mansukh (Cairo: Dar al-Ma'arif, 1966), pp. 4-5, 123. On pp. 142-3, he lists the abrogated verses. See also pp. 7, 11, 26-7, 37, 46.
[16] Maulana Muhammad Ali, The Religion of Islam (Lahore: Ahmadiyya Anjuman Isha'at Islam, 2005), p. 32; Ahmad bin Muhammad al-Nahhas, An-Nasikh Wal-Mansukh (Cairo: Maktabat ‘Alam al-Fikr, 1986), pp. 2-3.


David Bukay “Peace or Jihad? Abrogation in Islam,” Middle East Quarterly, VOL XIV, NO. 4, Fall 2007, pp. 3-11
http://www.meforum.org/1754/peace-or-jihad-abrogation-in-islam#_ftnref14  

Thanks for your replies; I will ask more on the topic of friendship in a bit, also with attention to the way the issue plays out historiographically and in contemporary Islamic scholarship and culture in addition to individual examples of dissent which however more conciliatory and attractive they indeed may be, do not seem to represent the mainstream thus defined regardless of presentations by e.g. popular apologists.
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[1]


Just off the top of my head, I can think of Muhammad Asad as someone who rejected the theory of abrogation, and his reasoning is quite convincing.  If you look at this scholarly credentials, you'll see that he studied enough to know what he is talking about.

And how would you define the Islamic mainstream?  Do you think that any ordinary believer out on the street in a Muslim country even knows what the theory of abrogation is?  If I asked all the worshipers at my local mosque, all of whom pray 5 times a day, what the theory of abrogation was, they wouldn't even know what I'm talking about.  The books of the jurists was by no means mainstream, and they are, to this day, the domain of Islam's more scholarly class, not lay believers.

According to Hamza Yusuf, there are only 4 verses in the Qur'an supposedly over which there are no differences of opinion regarding abrogration, (I believe it was the verses about alcohol, I'll have to read up on it) - all the others have been up for debate.  The fact that Muslim scholar have been debating this for centuries without much of a consensus shows how problematic the theory is.  Even someone like Ibn Taymiyya presented a more nuanced approach, saying that if the historical circumstances of a certain verse became applicable once again, then it is that verse that applies, not a later verse.

Based on my own study and observation, I don't buy the theory of abrogation, and unless I see some really convincing evidence, I never will.  And I don't consider myself to be an apologist in any way, shape, or form.

Which branch or form of Islam do you practice?   Were you raised Muslim or did you convert?  If you are a convert, did you convert in the United States or a western country?  

I'm sorry if you've already mentioned that somewhere and I missed it.  

I will test your theory about abrogration out on my Shia friend and see what he says.  He comes from a Sunni dominated country. 

I was born and raised Muslim, and I come from a Sunni background.

Thank you for your reply.

Please forgive me I forgot to welcome you to the forum.  I am new to this forum too, so I don't feel like someone who should be welcoming others, so I don't think of it at first.

I talked with my friend, who has a very good heart.  The way he describes abrogation sounds to me a lot like how it is with Christians, or even between Christians and Jews. There are many ways of interpreting things.  Some see only the surface meaning of the text, some see deeper into the text.  He knows what abrogation is, and also that many hadith were created later only for the purpose of personal interest, what the Bible would call 'making excuses in sins'.  Basically, people see what they want to see, not necessarily try to see what God would have us see.   Some, like various Christian groups with the Bible, use the Quran only to prove their personal opinion or their group's opinion, so they are being sort of dishonest.  He did not say the word 'dishonest', but plainly described that many have ulterior motive in their interpretation.  He said some of these people become the terrorists that everyone in the world knows about.  They cannot look at two contradicting verses and understand that God does not contradict God, so they choose the way that suits them and their interest.  This is a plain description of abrogation.   It is also the case with Christians and Jews and many others that people tend to see in terms of 'us vs. them'.  This is clearly a problem in Islamic countries and even among Muslims in diaspora, only rarely do we see some sort of extreme violence between Christian groups these days as we often see among Muslims.   

Though your comment that no one at your mosque even knows what 'abrogation' means seems to not be true with all Muslims, it may be true for your mosque, because, as with Christians, there are those who study and those who don't.  It may also be that only one way of interpreting is taught at your mosque, so even though it is occurring, no one realizes it because they simply and piously accept that interpretation. 

It was a really nice talk with my friend, so thank you for bringing an occasion for that conversation.   I am really more impressed with his way of thinking and understanding the world around him now than before, but I always thought he had a very good heart and he loves God.   Of course he knows I am Orthodox Christian, but it is no obstacle for him.  He doesn't argue or fight with anyone, even other Muslims.   But he doesn't accept fundamentalist thinking either.

With which branch of the Sunni Islam do you practice? 
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« Reply #493 on: April 06, 2013, 11:08:10 AM »

To think that a lying scoundrel and a terrorist pedophile can establish a religion that ends up having a billion adherents is not only historically unsound, but in my opinion, it just represents a bad opinion of God.  Falsehood cannot be upheld for this long to this capacity, no matter how violent or crazy its followers can be considered to be.

I don't see why not.

I agree. This is the weakest answer yet from essene's very thoughtful replies.

When it comes to the pedophile charge, there is simply nothing I've ever seen to suggest he was. No matter the age of Aisha, it is maintained, as far as I know, she was menstruating.

That ain't pedophilia.

And if you look at the background of the claims she was of whatever age, from 9 to 29, there is always an ideological reason behind the claims. Believe it or not, historically some people think Aisha being nine when she consummating the marriage  is important.

Just as some Christians think it is important that Mary was 12 when God entered here after she lived inside the Temple and that she married Joseph when we was 90 some years old.

Thing is, I've never heard a Muslim once bring up the fact that God entering Mary at 12 as being a problem, or at least not in the same manner that I've heard Christians bring up ONE manner of counting Aisha's age to call Mohamed a pedophile.

The one Muslim teacher I lived with was of the opinion that using the relative ages of everyone in the Mohamed's life to try to determine Aisha's age. He just thought there is more information there and a less ideologically charged method. He maintained she was 16 to 17 years of age with this reckoning.

He however never mocked Christians or the Christian God for entering a 12 year old girl, though he was quite certain that is what Christians believed Mary's age to be at conception.

Anyway . . .
« Last Edit: April 06, 2013, 11:11:50 AM by orthonorm » Logged

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« Reply #494 on: April 06, 2013, 11:13:27 AM »

To think that a lying scoundrel and a terrorist pedophile can establish a religion that ends up having a billion adherents is not only historically unsound, but in my opinion, it just represents a bad opinion of God.  Falsehood cannot be upheld for this long to this capacity, no matter how violent or crazy its followers can be considered to be.

I don't see why not.

I agree. This is the weakest answer yet from essene's very thoughtful replies.

When it comes to the pedophile charge, there is simply nothing I've ever seen to suggest he was. No matter the age of Aisha, it is maintained, as far as I know, she was menstruating.

That ain't pedophilia.

And if you look at the background of the claims she was of whatever age, from 9 to 29, there is always an ideological reason behind the claims. Believe it or not, historically some people think Aisha being nine when she consummating the marriage  is important.

Just as some Christians think it is important that Mary was 12 when God entered here after she lived inside the Temple and that she married Joseph when we was 90 some years old.

Thing is, I've never heard a Muslim once bring up the fact that God entering Mary at 12 as being a problem, or at least not in the same manner that I've heard Christians bring up ONE manner of counting Aisha's age to call Mohamed a pedophile.

The one Muslim teacher I lived with was of the opinion that using the relative ages of everyone in the Mohamed's life to try to determine Aisha's age. He just thought there is more information there and a less ideologically charged method. He maintained she was 16 to 17 years of age with this reckoning.

He however never mocked Christians or the Christian God for entering a 12 year old girl, though he was quite certain that is what Christians believed Mary's age to be at conception.

Anyway . . .

Interesting.
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