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Author Topic: Does it matter that we don't know what Jesus looked like?  (Read 627 times) Average Rating: 0
LenInSebastopol, Regnare and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Volnutt
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« Reply #45 on: Today at 02:46:05 PM »

Not to get all dispensationalist or anything, but the Incarnation changed a few things, not the least in that people could see God, touch God, even put their hand inside Him. From what I have read, icons are a way to nourish this contact.

If anything, dispensationalism (and the proto-dispensationalism expressed by John Calvin) turns the traditional Orthodox view of the Incarnation on its head, as Robin Phillips and Robert Araraki have both pointed out.

According to Calvin,

Quote
Formerly incense, candles, holy garments, an altar, vessels, and ceremonies of this nature, pleased God; and the reason was, that nothing is more precious or acceptable to Him than obedience. Now, since the coming of Christ, matters are entirely changed. We ought, therefore, to consider what he enjoins on us under the Gospel, that we may not follow at random what the Fathers observed under the Law; for what was at that time a holy observation of the worship of God would now be a shocking sacrilege. (emphasis added)

In other words, according to Calvin, worship in the Old Testament was physical and incarnational, but now it should be merely cerebral and "spiritual". It's almost as though John Calvin believed in a negative incarnation, one that made God further away from us rather than closer!

Sadly, most evangelical Protestants today share Calvin's basic assumptions about what worship should be like, even though not all of them know that he was the source of those ideas, nor do they understand all the implications this sort of neo-iconoclasm has for one's view of the Incarnation.

I think this is a vital point. Calvin was clearly being a crypto-Gnostic and even a crypto-Docetist here.
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« Reply #46 on: Today at 03:00:32 PM »

YIM, I think you really need to need to read that article Minnesotan linked to. It's fascinating Smiley
Quote
The curious fact here is that nowhere in the New Testament do we find a teaching, explicit or implied, that the old form of worship has been abolished and replaced by a new order of worship.  One would have to read certain assumptions into the New Testament to reach these conclusions.  Underlying Calvin’s puritanical approach to worship is an early form of JN Darby’s dispensationalism.  Calvin sees a major break between the Old and New covenants including their forms of worship.

http://orthodoxbridge.com/john-calvin-on-incense/
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« Reply #47 on: Today at 03:02:49 PM »

YIM, I think you really need to need to read that article Minnesotan linked to. It's fascinating Smiley
Quote
The curious fact here is that nowhere in the New Testament do we find a teaching, explicit or implied, that the old form of worship has been abolished and replaced by a new order of worship.  One would have to read certain assumptions into the New Testament to reach these conclusions.  Underlying Calvin’s puritanical approach to worship is an early form of JN Darby’s dispensationalism.  Calvin sees a major break between the Old and New covenants including their forms of worship.

http://orthodoxbridge.com/john-calvin-on-incense/

Volnutt, read through Yesh's past posts. He is not interesting in learning, only preaching.
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« Reply #48 on: Today at 03:05:44 PM »

Here's the deal.

The objection to icons isn't because of "what Jesus looked like".  Honestly, I would not even have an issue with icons if they just sat there and looked pretty.

The objection comes into play because it seems so apparent, so defying, and so deliberate in their defiance of the 1st commandment of God.

16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

 - Matthew 19:16-19 (KJV)

For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
 - Romans 13:9 (KJV)
« Last Edit: Today at 03:06:04 PM by Hawkeye » Logged

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« Reply #49 on: Today at 03:28:01 PM »

YIM, I think you really need to need to read that article Minnesotan linked to. It's fascinating Smiley
Quote
The curious fact here is that nowhere in the New Testament do we find a teaching, explicit or implied, that the old form of worship has been abolished and replaced by a new order of worship.  One would have to read certain assumptions into the New Testament to reach these conclusions.  Underlying Calvin’s puritanical approach to worship is an early form of JN Darby’s dispensationalism.  Calvin sees a major break between the Old and New covenants including their forms of worship.

http://orthodoxbridge.com/john-calvin-on-incense/

Volnutt, read through Yesh's past posts. He is not interesting in learning, only preaching.
I'm familiar with his posting history. I think he's in even more pain than I was when I first came here, both feeling drawn to Orthodoxy but having a crisis of conscience over it at the same time. I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt and try to help him know the peace I'm coming to on these issues.
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« Reply #50 on: Today at 08:06:50 PM »

YIM, I think you really need to need to read that article Minnesotan linked to. It's fascinating Smiley
Quote
The curious fact here is that nowhere in the New Testament do we find a teaching, explicit or implied, that the old form of worship has been abolished and replaced by a new order of worship.  One would have to read certain assumptions into the New Testament to reach these conclusions.  Underlying Calvin’s puritanical approach to worship is an early form of JN Darby’s dispensationalism.  Calvin sees a major break between the Old and New covenants including their forms of worship.

http://orthodoxbridge.com/john-calvin-on-incense/

Volnutt, read through Yesh's past posts. He is not interesting in learning, only preaching.
I'm familiar with his posting history. I think he's in even more pain than I was when I first came here, both feeling drawn to Orthodoxy but having a crisis of conscience over it at the same time. I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt and try to help him know the peace I'm coming to on these issues.

Thank you for seeing this Volnutt.  It's true what you say.  I wouldn't be on OC.net if there was not a draw to Eastern Orthodoxy.    I think all of us know that we are on a "walk of faith".  There are some on here who jump into Eastern Orthodoxy, are stable with Eastern Orthodoxy, simply become Eastern Orthodox, leave Orthodoxy, leave faith all together, and many other religions to talk/debate/discuss.

I'm glad you see there are some deep wounds I have.  It's a question of whether the wounds would draw me completely away from the church and heal elsewhere in another Christian church, or if those wounds would heal within the Eastern Orthodox church.

Both unfortunately & fortunately a forum like this gives such a place for issues to come out.  Unfortunate that issues are displayed and upset others, yet fortunate that it would give people like me a chance to bring the conflicting issues to light without having to "personally" upset somebody "on the spot".   It makes those who want to discuss able to discuss, those who want to poke fun to poke fun, and those who want to seriously debate, debate.  It also gives a chance for people to discuss without intimidation.  When passionate, I can have a forceful voice in person (not mean or in anger just bold & louder).   I would hate for that to cause intimidation to anybody in person.  Here they can lemme have it! Smiley

I have shelves of EO books, home made EO crosses, and other liturgical types of things still (won't get into exacts right now, but I show proper respect with certain things, not reverence, but respect, if I fully abandon EO, certain things will be given to a proper place that any EO would respect where these things went).  Respect is always important in difference.    I always give myself a chance to go back to EO.   As a person, I have to admit there is always that possibility what is "so right today" is "wrong tomorrow".   Seriously I could be wrong.   Undecided   If I ever go back to EO, I'll multiply my posts by seven in defense of EO and recant everything that I found wrong and state why.  I've already recanted on the date of feast of Pascha (date) and Christmas (date - Shirak of Antioch).

But yes, icons is a super dooper raw issue or me.  One day it may work its way "back in".   If it does I'll let everybody on this forum know and the reason(s) I came to peace (if so).

But thank you for bringing to light the wounds.  There is a draw to EO, you are right.  Those "for sure" in their faith, I admire for never questioning.

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« Reply #51 on: Today at 08:13:00 PM »

Well, I hope I've been able to help if only a little.

I'll be praying for you. As long as we keep loving Jesus, I believe that he'll lead both of us home somehow.
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« Reply #52 on: Today at 09:04:53 PM »

An idea just occurred to me. Periodically I'm troubled by the Muslim criticism that we Christians worship a man. While I was listening to a sermon by Fr. Hopko on the Incarnation just now, I had the thought that when we worship Christ, we can't be worshiping a man almost by definition since our praise of the one Person is received by Him in His capacity as God the Son and not in the sense of His flesh. It's the same Chalcedonian principle as Christ dying on the Cross as according to the flesh yet not dying as accords His divinity.

So, in the same way, we can venerate a Saint and the true veneration is received by Christ, as the true source of their goodness and faith. A mere human being is not the proper source of this praise and so they do not receive it as accords their human nature. We are called to be by grace what Christ is by nature.

In the same way, when we venerate an icon, the veneration is received by the person depicted on it (and ultimately by God) and not by the nature of the object since paint and wood are not by nature susceptible to praise and honor.

Make sense?
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« Reply #53 on: Today at 10:44:02 PM »

An idea just occurred to me. Periodically I'm troubled by the Muslim criticism that we Christians worship a man. While I was listening to a sermon by Fr. Hopko on the Incarnation just now, I had the thought that when we worship Christ, we can't be worshiping a man almost by definition since our praise of the one Person is received by Him in His capacity as God the Son and not in the sense of His flesh. It's the same Chalcedonian principle as Christ dying on the Cross as according to the flesh yet not dying as accords His divinity.

So, in the same way, we can venerate a Saint and the true veneration is received by Christ, as the true source of their goodness and faith. A mere human being is not the proper source of this praise and so they do not receive it as accords their human nature. We are called to be by grace what Christ is by nature.

In the same way, when we venerate an icon, the veneration is received by the person depicted on it (and ultimately by God) and not by the nature of the object since paint and wood are not by nature susceptible to praise and honor.

Make sense?

Yes. Clear and well written. Thanks.
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