OrthodoxChristianity.net
November 27, 2014, 09:46:53 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Is Primogeniture a Christian Concept?  (Read 271 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
JamesR
Virginal Chicano Blood
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox (but doubtful)
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church *of* America
Posts: 5,891


St. Augustine of Hippo pray for me!


« on: November 19, 2014, 10:23:11 PM »

Is the concept of primogeniture--that the firstborn child or firstborn child of a specific sex is entitled to more and/or holds a special position over his or her younger siblings--a Christian concept? Does the Church have any teachings about this or history regarding it? I know that in the Old Testament the eldest child was entitled to twice as large an inheritance as the younger ones. How did the Fathers interpret this and does it still apply? In fact, is primogeniture ever mentioned by the Fathers in a theological context at all?

I know that after the Mongols transformed Russia into a state (accept it Slavophiles) that the Muscovite Principality did away with the old appanage system in lieu of primogeniture. Was the Russian Church involved in that and did the new primogeniture ever take on a theological meaning? Do any of the canons of the Church deal with primogeniture and/or anything related regarded the eldest child? Is primogeniture technically a rule in the Church?
Logged

Quote
You're really on to something here. Tattoo to keep you from masturbating, chew to keep you from fornicating... it's a whole new world where you outsource your crosses. You're like a Christian entrepreneur or something.
Quote
James, you have problemz.
LBK
No Reporting Allowed
Moderated
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 11,446


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!


« Reply #1 on: November 19, 2014, 10:25:20 PM »

There are Biblical cases where it wasn't enforced - Jacob over Esau is an obvious example.
Logged
JamesR
Virginal Chicano Blood
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox (but doubtful)
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church *of* America
Posts: 5,891


St. Augustine of Hippo pray for me!


« Reply #2 on: November 19, 2014, 10:29:15 PM »

There are Biblical cases where it wasn't enforced - Jacob over Esau is an obvious example.

Yeah although God seems to have punished Jacob for that when he himself was deceived into working for 21 years for his wife. And then there's the fact that regardless of what happened in the OT, God sanctioned primogeniture by entitling the firstborn to a double inheritance. Not to mention the consecration of the firstborn.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2014, 10:29:39 PM by JamesR » Logged

Quote
You're really on to something here. Tattoo to keep you from masturbating, chew to keep you from fornicating... it's a whole new world where you outsource your crosses. You're like a Christian entrepreneur or something.
Quote
James, you have problemz.
LBK
No Reporting Allowed
Moderated
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 11,446


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!


« Reply #3 on: November 19, 2014, 10:39:56 PM »

There are Biblical cases where it wasn't enforced - Jacob over Esau is an obvious example.

Yeah although God seems to have punished Jacob for that when he himself was deceived into working for 21 years for his wife. And then there's the fact that regardless of what happened in the OT, God sanctioned primogeniture by entitling the firstborn to a double inheritance. Not to mention the consecration of the firstborn.

Yet Jacob is venerated as a patriarch, for Jews and Christians alike. Esau is not. Indeed, he is reviled.

From the Great Canon of St Andrew of Crete:

But you, my hopeless soul, have rather imitated Esau, surrendering to the crafty evil one the beauty you inherited from God. In two ways, works and wisdom, have you been deceived. Now is the time for you to change your ways.

Esau's consuming lust for women, his extreme passion, and his soul marred by senseless pleasures, earned for him the Hebrew name “Edom” (meaning “red”), for his soul was like a flame burning with love for sin.

Logged
JamesR
Virginal Chicano Blood
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox (but doubtful)
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church *of* America
Posts: 5,891


St. Augustine of Hippo pray for me!


« Reply #4 on: November 19, 2014, 10:51:13 PM »

Didn't Esau and Jacob actually reconcile in the biblical narrative? Why did Esau get such a negative reputation?
Logged

Quote
You're really on to something here. Tattoo to keep you from masturbating, chew to keep you from fornicating... it's a whole new world where you outsource your crosses. You're like a Christian entrepreneur or something.
Quote
James, you have problemz.
LBK
No Reporting Allowed
Moderated
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 11,446


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!


« Reply #5 on: November 19, 2014, 10:56:35 PM »

Why did Esau get such a negative reputation?

I'm sure the Fathers of the Church had their reasons.
Logged
kelly
UNSUBSCRIBED from the world
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Genuine Kellenic Truest Orthodox Traditionalist Church *of* America
Posts: 1,773


Proverbs 31:13


« Reply #6 on: November 19, 2014, 11:01:10 PM »

Why did Esau get such a negative reputation?

I'm sure the Fathers of the Church had their reasons.

I'm actually curious about this as well. Esau is one of those biblical figures I've alwaus felt gets a bum rep.
Logged

kelly and I spend all our free time collecting pictures of Russian monarchs.  Its a thing we do.
TheTrisagion
Armed Feline rider of Flaming Unicorns
Warned
Merarches
***********
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 9,486



« Reply #7 on: November 19, 2014, 11:03:47 PM »

Why did Esau get such a negative reputation?

I'm sure the Fathers of the Church had their reasons.

I'm actually curious about this as well. Esau is one of those biblical figures I've alwaus felt gets a bum rep.
I always got the impression that there was a whole lot that wasn't said about ol' Esau.
Logged

Have you considered the possibility that your face is an ad hominem?
Somebody just went all Jack Chick up in here.
Minnesotan
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Raised evangelical, inquiring into Orthodoxy
Jurisdiction: Interested in becoming Antiochian
Posts: 494


From the Land of 10,000 Lakes


« Reply #8 on: November 20, 2014, 01:37:03 AM »

Why did Esau get such a negative reputation?

I'm sure the Fathers of the Church had their reasons.

I'm actually curious about this as well. Esau is one of those biblical figures I've alwaus felt gets a bum rep.

I wonder if views of Esau may differ from jurisdiction to jurisdiction, or theological tradition to theological tradition.

The Ethiopian Orthodox Church, if I remember correctly, has a surprisingly positive view of Pontius Pilate, with a common view being that he eventually repented for what he did.
Logged
NicholasMyra
Avowed denominationalist
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian/Greek
Posts: 6,068


When in doubt, say: "you lack the proper φρόνημα"


« Reply #9 on: November 20, 2014, 02:52:00 AM »

It is a Christian concept, but there is no second son in the case where it applies.
Logged

Quote from: Orthonorm
if Christ does and says x. And someone else does and says not x and you are ever in doubt, follow Christ.
Gunnarr
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,802



« Reply #10 on: November 20, 2014, 03:55:27 AM »

James have you been playing a certain PC game
Logged

I am a demonic servant! Beware!
hecma925
Non-clairvoyant
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA - Diocese of the South
Posts: 6,905


Pray for me, a sinner.


WWW
« Reply #11 on: November 20, 2014, 06:08:25 AM »

It is a Christian concept, but there is no second son in the case where it applies.

Good answer.
Logged

LBK
No Reporting Allowed
Moderated
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 11,446


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!


« Reply #12 on: November 20, 2014, 07:53:49 AM »

Quote
I wonder if views of Esau may differ from jurisdiction to jurisdiction, or theological tradition to theological tradition.

Between EO and OO, perhaps (I can't speak for the OO), but not within the EO. If it's in EO hymnography, it's what the whole EO Church believes and teaches.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2014, 07:54:34 AM by LBK » Logged
Cyrillic
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 9,819


Cyrillico est imperare orbi universo


« Reply #13 on: November 20, 2014, 09:17:53 AM »

James have you been playing a certain PC game

It would surprise me if James played CKII.

He's the oldest child in his family, of course he would be interested in primogeniture.

I know that after the Mongols transformed Russia into a state (accept it Slavophiles)

Russia was still divided into a myriad of principalities after the Mongols.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2014, 09:18:52 AM by Cyrillic » Logged

"Claret is the liquor for boys; port for men; but he who aspires to be a hero must drink brandy."
-Dr. Samuel Johnson
biro
Excelsior
Site Supporter
Warned
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox
Posts: 14,450


fleem
WWW
« Reply #14 on: November 20, 2014, 09:22:35 AM »

I like the name Esau.
Logged

Charlie Rose: "If you could change one thing about the world, what would it be?"

Fran Lebowitz: "Everything. There is not one thing with which I am satisified."

spcasuncoast.org
Gunnarr
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,802



« Reply #15 on: November 21, 2014, 03:50:50 AM »


It would surprise me if James played CKII.

He's the oldest child in his family, of course he would be interested in primogeniture.


ohhhh thats the reason! Oh my!
Logged

I am a demonic servant! Beware!
Tags:
Pages: 1   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.083 seconds with 44 queries.