Author Topic: OCA and the Diptychs  (Read 439 times)

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Offline Jeffrey

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OCA and the Diptychs
« on: March 26, 2016, 01:11:27 AM »
I don't recall having mentioned "diptych placement".

The point, Mor, is that, whether you mentioned the ordering of diptychs or not, the place a churhc gives itself in the diptychs is indicative of its self understanding. The OCA understand sitself to be autocephalous, which self understanding automatically is expressed, among other things, by a place in the diptychs, and that place was precisely what was not accorded to Met Tikhon.

The list of Churches whose place on the Diptychs is disputed is:  Georgia, Serbia, Romania, Bulgaria, Albania, Poland, and the OCA.  None of those churches refuse to visit other churches who set them differently in the diptychs, even if they have to serve in a different order than their own understanding.  Even the EP has visited Russia where the diptychs are sung and guests arranged in what he considers to be the wrong order.

The EP is "playing nice" before the Cretan Council.  In the past, if the OCA primate was invited to the phanar he has been seated as a non celebrant with the chanters

https://oca.org/PhotoViewer.asp?EID=697&IID=8951&PEID=

where his All Holiness could keep watch on him from the Throne

https://oca.org/PhotoViewer.asp?EID=697&IID=8952&PEID=

Somehow a certain recognition is happening anyway.  Met Tikhon was elected a bishop, consecrated, and elected Metropolitan all in the context of the OCA autocephaly.

I seem to hear you arguing that we have to only accept invitations that recognize our status.  I believe that is self defeating. 




« Last Edit: March 26, 2016, 11:55:36 PM by FatherGiryus »

Offline mike

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Re: OCA and the Diptychs
« Reply #1 on: March 29, 2016, 02:27:41 AM »
I have not heard of any disputes regarding Romania and Bulgaria. And there is also Cyprus, that you left out.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2016, 11:18:06 AM by mike »
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Offline Dominika

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Re: OCA and the Diptychs
« Reply #2 on: March 29, 2016, 05:39:21 PM »
I have not heard of any disputes regarding Romania and Bulgaria. And there is also Cyprus, that you left out.
I've heard regarding Bulgaria. That's the reason that last visit of patriarch Bartholomew to Bulgaria ended in an atmosphere of scandal.
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Offline Jeffrey

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Re: OCA and the Diptychs
« Reply #3 on: March 29, 2016, 06:26:39 PM »
OK Here goes

first column Constantinople Diptychs
second column Moscow Diptychs
italics represent churches who occupy a different place in the Diptychs.

1 Constantinople         1 Constantinople

2 Alexandria                    2 Alexandria

3 Antioch                        3 Antioch

4 Jerusalem                       4 Jerusalem

5 Moscow                            5 Moscow

6 Serbian Church                 6 Georgian Church

7 The Romanian Church       7 Serbian Church

8 Bulgarian Church          8 Romanian Church

9 Georgian Church          9 Bulgarian Church


10 Church of Cyprus          10 Church of Cyprus

11 Church of Greece          11 Church of Greece

12 Polish Church          12 Albanian Church

13 Albanian Church          13 Polish Church


14 Czechoslovak Church  14 Czechoslovak Church

15 -----                             15 OCA

 I am certain that Constantinople's Diptychs apply in Constantinople, Alexandria, Antioch, Jerusalem, Greece, & Cyprus.  I suspect Albania too.

The Georgian Church and the OCA have the same Diptychs as Moscow.  Czechoslovakia too, though that may be changing.  Serbia has Diptychs like Moscow, except that Serbia comes before Georgia, and it does not include the OCA.  I suspect Bulgaria has Diptychs like Moscow, but am not certain, but formally they accept the Tomos.

I do not know what diptychs prevail in Romania, Bulgaria and Poland.

The dispute about No.s 6 -9 is essentially a dispute about whether Georgia comes before or after Balkan Churches, (or in Belgrad, somewhere in between).  But it effects the placement of all four churches.

source:

https://drevo-info.ru/articles/1704.html

Offline Dominika

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Re: OCA and the Diptychs
« Reply #4 on: March 30, 2016, 02:26:17 PM »
In Polish Church it's the same like Moscow diptychs, with one difference: Polish Church is before the Albanian one.
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Re: OCA and the Diptychs
« Reply #5 on: March 30, 2016, 03:21:09 PM »
In Polish Church it's the same like Moscow diptychs, with one difference: Polish Church is before the Albanian one.

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Offline Jeffrey

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Re: OCA and the Diptychs
« Reply #6 on: March 30, 2016, 07:53:14 PM »
In Polish Church it's the same like Moscow diptychs, with one difference: Polish Church is before the Albanian one.

The dispute here is date of Autocephaly.  The date when Constantinople recognized Albania was 1937.  Constantinople bestowed Autocephaly on Poland in 1924.  Moscow did not recognize this as those dioceses had been part of the Russian Orthodox Church.  Moscow gave its own tomos of autocephaly to Poland in 1948.

Offline Dominika

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Re: OCA and the Diptychs
« Reply #7 on: March 31, 2016, 03:07:21 AM »
In Polish Church it's the same like Moscow diptychs, with one difference: Polish Church is before the Albanian one.

No humility.

Yeah, some people say "Even in religious issues we'ren behind even behind such nations like Albanians" :P

But, more seriously, that's the reason:
The dispute here is date of Autocephaly.  The date when Constantinople recognized Albania was 1937.  Constantinople bestowed Autocephaly on Poland in 1924.  Moscow did not recognize this as those dioceses had been part of the Russian Orthodox Church.  Moscow gave its own tomos of autocephaly to Poland in 1948.
I just want to add that the first head of Polish Church has been killed by a Russian monk.
And the dispute is deeper.
1. Do we recognize the centuries of being under the Constantinople, or a bit more than 100 years under Moscow (and it wasn't the whole Church) during the Russian occupation?
2. Are we more Eastern Slavic or a kind of mixture (Eastern-Western-Southern Slavic)?
3. Should we be closer to "Greek"/generally Southern tradition or Russian one? It also applies to politics.
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