Author Topic: Romulus Augustulus....sainthood?  (Read 884 times)

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Offline Amatorus

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Romulus Augustulus....sainthood?
« on: May 11, 2015, 10:45:44 PM »
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romulus_Augustulus

Romulus Augustulus was only a teenager when he was deposed by the barbarian king Odoacer, marking the de iure end of the Western Roman Empire. Odoacer was a (moderate) Arian heretic and Italy and other areas would not see the return of Chalcedonian Christianity in their kings for at least  couple of centuries.

Now, some Orthodox consider King Harold II of England a possible saint for several reasons include being killed by William the Conqueror who conspired with Pope Alexander II to secure a strict Roman Rite over a likely still-Orthodox British Isles (http://orthodoxwiki.org/Harold_of_England). But what about this Romulus Augustulus? He could have grown up to secure unity with the Eastern Roman Empire and a truly Orthodox Roman Empire could have stayed in Europe again. However this is going deep into speculation and butterfly effect.

What do you think, could Romulus Augustulus quality for sainthood? It is most likely he died in exile, and I am looking at the context and archaeological finds such as minted coins of his image and he seemed innocent and pious.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2015, 10:56:38 PM by Amatorus »
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Offline Minnesotan

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Re: Romulus Augustulus....sainthood?
« Reply #1 on: May 11, 2015, 10:57:59 PM »
At first when I saw the title of your post I thought of Romulus the legendary founder of Rome, so I thought, "A pagan Saint?"

Which might not be out of the realm of possibility given that there were many Jewish OT saints who lived before the time of Christ, so there's no reason why there couldn't have been pagan ones as well. Given that when St. Paul visited the Areopagus he seemed to imply that there were some pagans who already worshiped the one true God but didn't know it yet. But officially recognizing any particular pagan as a saint would be going too far I think; isn't the usual belief that their names are known only to God?

Never heard of Romulus Augustulus though. Interesting, although there are some who speculate that he was an usurper and the lawful last Western Roman Emperor was a different man.

Also, is there an official Orthodox teaching on Charlemagne? I've seen a lot of criticisms of him from Orthodox authors, but he did live prior to the schism. Although neither his empire nor the Byzantines were ever interested in uniting with each other, so it doesn't seem likely there could have been a unified Roman Empire emerging in that way.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2015, 11:04:43 PM by Minnesotan »
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Offline Amatorus

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Re: Romulus Augustulus....sainthood?
« Reply #2 on: May 11, 2015, 11:01:41 PM »
At first when I saw the title of your post I thought of Romulus the legendary founder of Rome, so I thought, "A pagan Saint?"

Which might not be out of the realm of possibility given that there were many Jewish OT saints who lived before the time of Christ, so there's no reason why there couldn't have been pagan ones as well. Given that when St. Paul visited the Areopagus he seemed to imply that there were some pagans who already worshiped the one true God but didn't know it yet. But officially recognizing any particular pagan as a saint would be going too far I think; isn't the usual belief that their names are known only to God?

Yeah haha Ss. Romulus and Remus, that's weird to think about. :P However I was going to make a thread similar to your thoughts one day, such as the Orthodox position on what happens to "virtuous pagans" who would never know of Christ, such as Plato.

And yes it's ironic how Western Rome both starts and ends with a Romulus, and the New Rome both starts and ends with a Constantine.
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Offline WPM

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Re: Romulus Augustulus....sainthood?
« Reply #3 on: May 11, 2015, 11:04:53 PM »
Which, historically, had always been addressed to someone else.

Offline Amatorus

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Re: Romulus Augustulus....sainthood?
« Reply #4 on: May 11, 2015, 11:06:14 PM »
Which, historically, had always been addressed to someone else.

???? I don't understand..
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Offline Hawkeye

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Re: Romulus Augustulus....sainthood?
« Reply #5 on: May 12, 2015, 12:15:28 AM »
Had the little Augustus been killed in his deposition perhaps there would be a case to be made but chances are the boy survived into adulthood and without any knowledge of his post-imperial life, it would be too great a leap to name him a saint. We can't know what sort of person he was or became and what we can garner from his time as emperor is not enough.
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Offline Cyrillic

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Re: Romulus Augustulus....sainthood?
« Reply #6 on: May 12, 2015, 02:42:33 AM »
Which, historically, had always been addressed to someone else.

???? I don't understand..

Nobody ever does.
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Offline Antonious Nikolas

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Re: Romulus Augustulus....sainthood?
« Reply #7 on: May 12, 2015, 07:37:26 AM »
Which, historically, had always been addressed to someone else.

???? I don't understand..

Nobody ever does.

Such is it always with Revolutionary Writers and the hoi polloi.  Philistines.
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Re: Romulus Augustulus....sainthood?
« Reply #8 on: May 12, 2015, 07:43:34 AM »
Such is it always with Revolutionary Writers and the hoi polloi.  Philistines.

Amusing, only hoi polloi say "the hoi polloi"...

« Last Edit: May 12, 2015, 07:43:53 AM by Cyrillic »
At nunc desertis cessant sacraria lucis:
aurum omnes victa iam pietate colunt.
-Propertius, Elegies III.XIII:47-48

Ἀπ' ὃσα ἒκαμα κι ἀπ’ ὃσα εἶπα
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Offline Antonious Nikolas

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Re: Romulus Augustulus....sainthood?
« Reply #9 on: May 12, 2015, 07:45:52 AM »
Such is it always with Revolutionary Writers and the hoi polloi.  Philistines.

Amusing, only hoi polloi say "the hoi polloi"...

I once got a bit of egg on my nanny.
Worship is theology, so a church which brings Evangelical and Charismatic "praise & worship" into its corporate life is no longer Orthodox.  It is, by definition, heterodox.  Those "Orthodox" leaders who make theological arguments for the incorporation of heteropraxis into the life of the Church are heretics.

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Offline Amatorus

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Re: Romulus Augustulus....sainthood?
« Reply #10 on: May 12, 2015, 05:03:58 PM »
Had the little Augustus been killed in his deposition perhaps there would be a case to be made but chances are the boy survived into adulthood and without any knowledge of his post-imperial life, it would be too great a leap to name him a saint. We can't know what sort of person he was or became and what we can garner from his time as emperor is not enough.

Can't the same case be made for many current saints after the Fall of Rome until the High Middle Ages? Some probably even didn't exist (although I hope they did), like Ss. Barlaam and Jospahat.

The article says Romulus Augustulus died in exile, and whether he was receiving pension from Odoacer is uncertain, but I think it was probably not the most comfortable life even for an emperor-in-exile. Anyway, if the Arian king had not deposed him, he could have had a chance to restore Roman and Orthodox hegemony across Europe. I believe he deserves some kind of sympathy for his lost potential.
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Offline Antonious Nikolas

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Re: Romulus Augustulus....sainthood?
« Reply #11 on: May 12, 2015, 06:24:00 PM »
Had the little Augustus been killed in his deposition perhaps there would be a case to be made but chances are the boy survived into adulthood and without any knowledge of his post-imperial life, it would be too great a leap to name him a saint. We can't know what sort of person he was or became and what we can garner from his time as emperor is not enough.

Can't the same case be made for many current saints after the Fall of Rome until the High Middle Ages? Some probably even didn't exist (although I hope they did), like Ss. Barlaam and Jospahat.

The article says Romulus Augustulus died in exile, and whether he was receiving pension from Odoacer is uncertain, but I think it was probably not the most comfortable life even for an emperor-in-exile. Anyway, if the Arian king had not deposed him, he could have had a chance to restore Roman and Orthodox hegemony across Europe. I believe he deserves some kind of sympathy for his lost potential.



All of your arguments are hypothetical.  The Church can't recognize someone's sainthood based on your fan fiction in which he was the pious, prayerful prisoner of a barbarian heretic king or the would-be patron of a Western Orthodox Empire.  "It was likely this..." and "It was likely that..." don't mean a hill of beans.  The actual facts of the lives of certain saints - or even their existence - being called into question doesn't factor into the equation either.  At the time they were sainted, their hagiographies were taken at face value and absolutely believed.  The Church isn't going to de-sanctify them based on modern skepticism, but it's not going to make Romulus Augustulus or anyone else a saint based on some kid's wild speculation either.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2015, 06:26:44 PM by Antonious Nikolas »
Worship is theology, so a church which brings Evangelical and Charismatic "praise & worship" into its corporate life is no longer Orthodox.  It is, by definition, heterodox.  Those "Orthodox" leaders who make theological arguments for the incorporation of heteropraxis into the life of the Church are heretics.

http://returntoorthodoxy.com/

Offline Amatorus

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Re: Romulus Augustulus....sainthood?
« Reply #12 on: May 12, 2015, 06:30:02 PM »
Had the little Augustus been killed in his deposition perhaps there would be a case to be made but chances are the boy survived into adulthood and without any knowledge of his post-imperial life, it would be too great a leap to name him a saint. We can't know what sort of person he was or became and what we can garner from his time as emperor is not enough.

Can't the same case be made for many current saints after the Fall of Rome until the High Middle Ages? Some probably even didn't exist (although I hope they did), like Ss. Barlaam and Jospahat.

The article says Romulus Augustulus died in exile, and whether he was receiving pension from Odoacer is uncertain, but I think it was probably not the most comfortable life even for an emperor-in-exile. Anyway, if the Arian king had not deposed him, he could have had a chance to restore Roman and Orthodox hegemony across Europe. I believe he deserves some kind of sympathy for his lost potential.



All of your arguments are hypothetical.  The Church can't recognize someone's sainthood based on your fan fiction in which he was the pious, prayerful prisoner of a barbarian heretic king or the would-be patron of a Western Orthodox Empire.  "It was likely this..." and "It was likely that..." don't mean a hill of beans.  The actual facts of the lives of certain saints - or even their existence - being called into question doesn't factor into the equation either.  At the time they were sainted, their hagiographies were taken at face value and absolutely believed.  The Church isn't going to de-sanctify them based on modern skepticism, but it's not going to make Romulus Augustulus or anyone else a saint based on some kid's wild speculation either.

Y-you are mean...
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Offline Antonious Nikolas

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Re: Romulus Augustulus....sainthood?
« Reply #13 on: May 12, 2015, 07:06:12 PM »
Y-you are mean...

:D I didn't mean to be!

I'll tell you what, Romulus Augustulus can be a saint in my idealized fantasy world in which extra baggy 90s Nautica and Tommy Hilfiger clothes are still all the rage, processed sugars are neither harmful nor fattening, Disney never bought (and ruined!) Doug and (potentially) Star Wars, Animaniacs still comes on, and Jimmy Fallon works at Denny's and is never allowed near a television studio under pain of death.  And I rule it all as a benevolent dictator!  I'll have an army of stonemasons get started on St. Romulus Augustulus Cathedral immediately and get wgw started on an akathist while Minnesotan writes a hagiography based on your postulating.  Now please rise for the planetary national anthem, just because this happens to be the song that's stuck in my head at the moment.  Better?
« Last Edit: May 12, 2015, 07:07:54 PM by Antonious Nikolas »
Worship is theology, so a church which brings Evangelical and Charismatic "praise & worship" into its corporate life is no longer Orthodox.  It is, by definition, heterodox.  Those "Orthodox" leaders who make theological arguments for the incorporation of heteropraxis into the life of the Church are heretics.

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Offline biro

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Re: Romulus Augustulus....sainthood?
« Reply #14 on: May 12, 2015, 07:13:18 PM »
Much.

Offline Antonious Nikolas

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Re: Romulus Augustulus....sainthood?
« Reply #15 on: May 12, 2015, 07:48:08 PM »
Much.


Awww....I didn't know I'd upset you too, biro!  Hope this helps.  :)

Worship is theology, so a church which brings Evangelical and Charismatic "praise & worship" into its corporate life is no longer Orthodox.  It is, by definition, heterodox.  Those "Orthodox" leaders who make theological arguments for the incorporation of heteropraxis into the life of the Church are heretics.

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Offline biro

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Re: Romulus Augustulus....sainthood?
« Reply #16 on: May 12, 2015, 07:56:15 PM »
Thank you.

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Romulus Augustulus....sainthood?
« Reply #17 on: May 12, 2015, 08:49:02 PM »
Y-you are mean...

Don't stutter type. It makes you look like a creep or a troll.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2015, 08:49:20 PM by Volnutt »

Offline Amatorus

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Re: Romulus Augustulus....sainthood?
« Reply #18 on: May 12, 2015, 09:44:18 PM »
Y-you are mean...

Don't stutter type. It makes you look like a creep or a troll.

I-I'm just a wee lad though.
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Re: Romulus Augustulus....sainthood?
« Reply #19 on: May 12, 2015, 10:50:33 PM »
Y-you are mean...

Don't stutter type. It makes you look like a creep or a troll.

I-I'm just a wee lad though.

Yeah, definitely "creep". 
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Offline wgw

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Re: Romulus Augustulus....sainthood?
« Reply #20 on: May 13, 2015, 12:46:39 AM »
Mind you, the Akathist part sounds nice enough.  Although I would be even more interested in composing Oriental services in his honor; if only my translation of the Coptic Psalmody were complete and had a glossary (so that one knows what properly is a Hoos, vs a Psali).
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Offline LBK

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Re: Romulus Augustulus....sainthood?
« Reply #21 on: May 13, 2015, 01:11:19 AM »
Mind you, the Akathist part sounds nice enough.  Although I would be even more interested in composing Oriental services in his honor; if only my translation of the Coptic Psalmody were complete and had a glossary (so that one knows what properly is a Hoos, vs a Psali).

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Offline Antonious Nikolas

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Re: Romulus Augustulus....sainthood?
« Reply #22 on: May 13, 2015, 08:53:53 AM »
Y-you are mean...

Don't stutter type. It makes you look like a creep or a troll.

I-I'm just a wee lad though.

Yeah, definitely "creep".

Yeah, it doesn't get any creepier than that.  The affects of anime culture.  Between that and wgw's taking my suggestion of composing an akathist seriously, I think this thread has come to it's horrible conclusion.  Thanks, fellas.  It's been...Well, it's been like walking through that bug-filled crevasse from King Kong.

« Last Edit: May 13, 2015, 08:54:34 AM by Antonious Nikolas »
Worship is theology, so a church which brings Evangelical and Charismatic "praise & worship" into its corporate life is no longer Orthodox.  It is, by definition, heterodox.  Those "Orthodox" leaders who make theological arguments for the incorporation of heteropraxis into the life of the Church are heretics.

http://returntoorthodoxy.com/

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Romulus Augustulus....sainthood?
« Reply #23 on: May 13, 2015, 09:47:55 AM »
Mind you, the Akathist part sounds nice enough.  Although I would be even more interested in composing Oriental services in his honor; if only my translation of the Coptic Psalmody were complete and had a glossary (so that one knows what properly is a Hoos, vs a Psali).

For the love of all that is holy, don't. Please don't.

+1
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Offline podkarpatska

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Re: Romulus Augustulus....sainthood?
« Reply #24 on: May 13, 2015, 12:08:49 PM »
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romulus_Augustulus

Romulus Augustulus was only a teenager when he was deposed by the barbarian king Odoacer, marking the de iure end of the Western Roman Empire. Odoacer was a (moderate) Arian heretic and Italy and other areas would not see the return of Chalcedonian Christianity in their kings for at least  couple of centuries.

Now, some Orthodox consider King Harold II of England a possible saint for several reasons include being killed by William the Conqueror who conspired with Pope Alexander II to secure a strict Roman Rite over a likely still-Orthodox British Isles (http://orthodoxwiki.org/Harold_of_England). But what about this Romulus Augustulus? He could have grown up to secure unity with the Eastern Roman Empire and a truly Orthodox Roman Empire could have stayed in Europe again. However this is going deep into speculation and butterfly effect.

What do you think, could Romulus Augustulus quality for sainthood? It is most likely he died in exile, and I am looking at the context and archaeological finds such as minted coins of his image and he seemed innocent and pious.

For what it's worth few historians, secular and Church, would accept at face value the Orthodox Wiki article on Harold - at least as it refers to the 'Orthodoxy' of Harold and the narrative that follows...externally sourced to Vladimir Moss and another unavailable webpage...Just saying...
« Last Edit: May 13, 2015, 12:09:16 PM by podkarpatska »

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Re: Romulus Augustulus....sainthood?
« Reply #25 on: May 14, 2015, 02:55:22 AM »
Just for the record I was joking about the liturgical stuff.  I have no desire to insert verses in honor of Romulus Augustulus into the Coptic Holy Psalmody or write an akathist for the dude.  I had hoped that would be obvious, but at least my intervention managed to conjure up the ghost of LBK, whose input on the iconography threads has been missed by many including myself.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2015, 02:56:07 AM by wgw »
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Re: Romulus Augustulus....sainthood?
« Reply #26 on: May 14, 2015, 07:44:17 AM »
at least my intervention managed to conjure up the ghost of LBK

You're a regular Witch of Endor.

Worship is theology, so a church which brings Evangelical and Charismatic "praise & worship" into its corporate life is no longer Orthodox.  It is, by definition, heterodox.  Those "Orthodox" leaders who make theological arguments for the incorporation of heteropraxis into the life of the Church are heretics.

http://returntoorthodoxy.com/

Offline ZealousZeal

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Re: Romulus Augustulus....sainthood?
« Reply #27 on: May 14, 2015, 07:29:59 PM »
Y-you are mean...

:D I didn't mean to be!

I'll tell you what, Romulus Augustulus can be a saint in my idealized fantasy world in which extra baggy 90s Nautica and Tommy Hilfiger clothes are still all the rage, processed sugars are neither harmful nor fattening, Disney never bought (and ruined!) Doug and (potentially) Star Wars, Animaniacs still comes on, and Jimmy Fallon works at Denny's and is never allowed near a television studio under pain of death.  And I rule it all as a benevolent dictator!  I'll have an army of stonemasons get started on St. Romulus Augustulus Cathedral immediately and get wgw started on an akathist while Minnesotan writes a hagiography based on your postulating.  Now please rise for the planetary national anthem, just because this happens to be the song that's stuck in my head at the moment.  Better?

Eli Eli lama sabachthani?

My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
"For this God is our God forever and ever; He will be our guide, even to the end." Psalm 48:14

Offline Antonious Nikolas

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Re: Romulus Augustulus....sainthood?
« Reply #28 on: May 14, 2015, 07:35:12 PM »
Eli Eli lama sabachthani?

This woman calls upon Elijah!

Worship is theology, so a church which brings Evangelical and Charismatic "praise & worship" into its corporate life is no longer Orthodox.  It is, by definition, heterodox.  Those "Orthodox" leaders who make theological arguments for the incorporation of heteropraxis into the life of the Church are heretics.

http://returntoorthodoxy.com/

Offline ZealousZeal

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Re: Romulus Augustulus....sainthood?
« Reply #29 on: May 14, 2015, 07:38:00 PM »
Eli Eli lama sabachthani?

This woman calls upon Elijah!



Immediately, run and get me a sponge.

"For this God is our God forever and ever; He will be our guide, even to the end." Psalm 48:14

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Romulus Augustulus....sainthood?
« Reply #30 on: May 14, 2015, 07:46:54 PM »
Too much...
"Do not tempt the Mor thy Mod."

New thread topic.  Rate the sexual attractiveness of members of OC.net on a scale of 1-10.

Mor Ephrem: 11/10

Offline Antonious Nikolas

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Re: Romulus Augustulus....sainthood?
« Reply #31 on: May 14, 2015, 07:47:31 PM »
Eli Eli lama sabachthani?

This woman calls upon Elijah!



Immediately, run and get me a sponge.





Well played, ZZ, well played.  :)
Worship is theology, so a church which brings Evangelical and Charismatic "praise & worship" into its corporate life is no longer Orthodox.  It is, by definition, heterodox.  Those "Orthodox" leaders who make theological arguments for the incorporation of heteropraxis into the life of the Church are heretics.

http://returntoorthodoxy.com/

Offline Amatorus

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Re: Romulus Augustulus....sainthood?
« Reply #32 on: May 14, 2015, 07:59:26 PM »
I regret making this thread...
Ipse se nihil scire id unum sciat.

Offline Antonious Nikolas

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Re: Romulus Augustulus....sainthood?
« Reply #33 on: May 14, 2015, 08:43:02 PM »
I regret making this thread...


I-I regret your making it too.


Worship is theology, so a church which brings Evangelical and Charismatic "praise & worship" into its corporate life is no longer Orthodox.  It is, by definition, heterodox.  Those "Orthodox" leaders who make theological arguments for the incorporation of heteropraxis into the life of the Church are heretics.

http://returntoorthodoxy.com/

Offline hecma925

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Re: Romulus Augustulus....sainthood?
« Reply #34 on: May 15, 2015, 02:18:26 AM »
Just for the record I was joking about the liturgical stuff.

Is that in this thread only or in other threads?
Happy shall he be, that shall take and dash thy little ones against the rock. Alleluia.

Once Christ has filled the Cross, it can never be empty again.

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