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Offline converted viking

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shoes
« on: September 27, 2012, 08:13:53 PM »
So this post is going to seem crazy to most of you I am sure but would someone please tell me why we wear our shoes while at Divine Liturgy? It seems to me that coming into the church with all of the grime and dirt on the bottom of our shoes is just wrong.   I have been told that it simply is not part of our tradition to park our foot wear outside but some how this explanation just seems totally lame to me.   It just doesn't feel right to be at Divine Liturgy shod.   I will confess that I was raised in the Middle East and I am a convert to Orthodoxy.

In Christ:
Seraphim

Offline Shiny

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Re: shoes
« Reply #1 on: September 27, 2012, 08:19:09 PM »
Sounds like something the Copts would do. Not sure why we would do it since there's a great argument in Exodus "Take off your sandals, for the place where you are standing is holy ground..."

Or maybe not.
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Offline converted viking

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Re: shoes
« Reply #2 on: September 27, 2012, 08:25:40 PM »
Sounds like something the Copts would do. Not sure why we would do it since there's a great argument in Exodus "Take off your sandals, for the place where you are standing is holy ground..."

Or maybe not.

I know the Copts do.   

Offline Justin Kissel

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Re: shoes
« Reply #3 on: September 27, 2012, 08:29:49 PM »
Cultural customs differ from place to place... some wash their hands before reading the Scripture, for example. I personally don't see the issue. I'm sure there's plenty of dead skin, dirt, etc. on our bodies, even if we showered that morning. This is my opinion and I am being stuck to it.

Offline sheenj

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Re: shoes
« Reply #4 on: September 27, 2012, 08:54:55 PM »
Sounds like something the Copts would do. Not sure why we would do it since there's a great argument in Exodus "Take off your sandals, for the place where you are standing is holy ground..."

Or maybe not.

I know the Copts do.   
So do all the Malankara Orthodox.

Offline Justin Kissel

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Re: shoes
« Reply #5 on: September 27, 2012, 08:55:36 PM »
Sounds like something the Copts would do. Not sure why we would do it since there's a great argument in Exodus "Take off your sandals, for the place where you are standing is holy ground..."

Or maybe not.

I know the Copts do.   
So do all the Malankara Orthodox.

Must you multiply the differences that separate the churches?

Offline converted viking

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Re: shoes
« Reply #6 on: September 27, 2012, 09:04:40 PM »
Sounds like something the Copts would do. Not sure why we would do it since there's a great argument in Exodus "Take off your sandals, for the place where you are standing is holy ground..."

Or maybe not.

I know the Copts do.   
So do all the Malankara Orthodox.

Must you multiply the differences that separate the churches?


Please, everyone.  Lets not start a fight here, I didn't mean to post something that would open up Pandoras Box.

Seraphim

Offline LizaSymonenko

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Re: shoes
« Reply #7 on: September 27, 2012, 10:09:47 PM »

Ever take off your shoes in in the dead of winter in freezing temperatures?
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Offline JamesR

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Re: shoes
« Reply #8 on: September 27, 2012, 10:16:03 PM »
Sounds like something the Copts would do. Not sure why we would do it since there's a great argument in Exodus "Take off your sandals, for the place where you are standing is holy ground..."

Or maybe not.

Yeah but the Old has to be read in light of the New. Now that God became man everything is clean and holy, therefore humans can stand on holy ground.
...Or it's just possible he's a mouthy young man on an internet forum.
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Offline Cantor Krishnich

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Re: shoes
« Reply #9 on: September 27, 2012, 10:32:32 PM »
So this post is going to seem crazy to most of you I am sure but would someone please tell me why we wear our shoes while at Divine Liturgy? It seems to me that coming into the church with all of the grime and dirt on the bottom of our shoes is just wrong.   I have been told that it simply is not part of our tradition to park our foot wear outside but some how this explanation just seems totally lame to me.   It just doesn't feel right to be at Divine Liturgy shod.   I will confess that I was raised in the Middle East and I am a convert to Orthodoxy.

In Christ:
Seraphim

Actually, It is the custom in some Orthodox Churches to do this. In the Oriental Orthodox Church, the Copts (from Egypt), the Ethiopians, the Indian Orthodox, and a few Syriac Church do it.

In the Eastern Orthodox Church, this practices in mainly kept in places where it is culturally correct to remove your shoes in worship areas EO missions in places like Asia/Indian Subcontinent remove their shoes when praying. Im not sure but I think that the some of the Georgians also remove their shoes at church. Does anyone know if the Arab Orthodox also do this?

I remove my shoes during Holy Week services as do many of the Oriental Orthodox who come to our church.
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Offline Cantor Krishnich

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Re: shoes
« Reply #10 on: September 27, 2012, 10:37:57 PM »

Ever take off your shoes in in the dead of winter in freezing temperatures?

Arent you supposed to be Ukrainian (Its always Cold in Ukraine)! This Babushka says "BRING ON THE COLD!"
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Offline converted viking

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Re: shoes
« Reply #11 on: September 27, 2012, 10:57:22 PM »

Ever take off your shoes in in the dead of winter in freezing temperatures?

Well I live in the South and usually wear my Birks year around.  If it hits freezing then I will throw on the socks.  Freaks my daughter out but she is an adult now and no longer lives at home.  The dogs don't care, my wife ignores it.  :laugh:

Seraphim
 

Offline converted viking

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Re: shoes
« Reply #12 on: September 27, 2012, 11:00:26 PM »
So this post is going to seem crazy to most of you I am sure but would someone please tell me why we wear our shoes while at Divine Liturgy? It seems to me that coming into the church with all of the grime and dirt on the bottom of our shoes is just wrong.   I have been told that it simply is not part of our tradition to park our foot wear outside but some how this explanation just seems totally lame to me.   It just doesn't feel right to be at Divine Liturgy shod.   I will confess that I was raised in the Middle East and I am a convert to Orthodoxy.

In Christ:
Seraphim

Actually, It is the custom in some Orthodox Churches to do this. In the Oriental Orthodox Church, the Copts (from Egypt), the Ethiopians, the Indian Orthodox, and a few Syriac Church do it.

In the Eastern Orthodox Church, this practices in mainly kept in places where it is culturally correct to remove your shoes in worship areas EO missions in places like Asia/Indian Subcontinent remove their shoes when praying. Im not sure but I think that the some of the Georgians also remove their shoes at church. Does anyone know if the Arab Orthodox also do this?

I remove my shoes during Holy Week services as do many of the Oriental Orthodox who come to our church.

It always seems to boil down to culture.

Seraphim

Offline JamesR

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Re: shoes
« Reply #13 on: September 27, 2012, 11:03:34 PM »
I live on California. Unfortunately I cannot use the cold as an excuse to wear my shoes.
...Or it's just possible he's a mouthy young man on an internet forum.
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Offline converted viking

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Re: shoes
« Reply #14 on: September 27, 2012, 11:04:56 PM »

Ever take off your shoes in in the dead of winter in freezing temperatures?

Arent you supposed to be Ukrainian (Its always Cold in Ukraine)! This Babushka says "BRING ON THE COLD!"


Sheshhhhh, I don't think I would give this Babushka a hard time. I have the feeling she would whack the snot out of someone if she thought it needed to be done.  Tough lady !!!  :laugh:
« Last Edit: September 27, 2012, 11:05:33 PM by converted viking »

Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: shoes
« Reply #15 on: September 27, 2012, 11:12:59 PM »
That's how I imagine Liza and LBK.  :angel:
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Offline LBK

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Re: shoes
« Reply #16 on: September 28, 2012, 12:32:29 AM »
That's how I imagine Liza and LBK.  :angel:

I'm immune to flattery.  :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

And I agree - babas like that one comprehensively demolish the idea of women being the weaker sex. If it weren't for these indomitable ladies, the world (and every Orthodox parish) would collapse in a screaming heap.
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Offline HabteSelassie

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Re: shoes
« Reply #17 on: September 28, 2012, 12:39:52 AM »
Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

So this post is going to seem crazy to most of you I am sure but would someone please tell me why we wear our shoes while at Divine Liturgy? It seems to me that coming into the church with all of the grime and dirt on the bottom of our shoes is just wrong.   I have been told that it simply is not part of our tradition to park our foot wear outside but some how this explanation just seems totally lame to me.   It just doesn't feel right to be at Divine Liturgy shod.   I will confess that I was raised in the Middle East and I am a convert to Orthodoxy.

In Christ:
Seraphim

In the Ethiopian jurisdiction we don't :)


Sounds like something the Copts would do. Not sure why we would do it since there's a great argument in Exodus "Take off your sandals, for the place where you are standing is holy ground..."

Or maybe not.

The Coptic parishes I've attended they wore shoes.  I take mine off at ALL Divine Liturgies out of habit, and at the Coptic Church I am the only one in bare feet :)

stay blessed,
habte selassie
« Last Edit: September 28, 2012, 12:41:29 AM by HabteSelassie »
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Offline Justin Kissel

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Re: shoes
« Reply #18 on: September 28, 2012, 12:42:15 AM »
Some would find a bunch of bare-footed women to be a distraction.  ;)
« Last Edit: September 28, 2012, 12:42:33 AM by Asteriktos »

Offline LBK

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Re: shoes
« Reply #19 on: September 28, 2012, 12:48:19 AM »
Some would find a bunch of bare-footed women to be a distraction.  ;)

I doubt that a bunch of barefooted men would be any less so ....  :P :P :o
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Offline HabteSelassie

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Re: shoes
« Reply #20 on: September 28, 2012, 12:53:32 AM »
Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Some would find a bunch of bare-footed women to be a distraction.  ;)

I doubt that a bunch of barefooted men would be any less so ....  :P :P :o


That should keep y'all focused on the Altar and the task at hand ;)

stay blessed,
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« Last Edit: September 28, 2012, 12:53:43 AM by HabteSelassie »
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Offline Jonathan

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Re: shoes
« Reply #21 on: October 01, 2012, 06:48:43 PM »

The Coptic parishes I've attended they wore shoes.  I take mine off at ALL Divine Liturgies out of habit, and at the Coptic Church I am the only one in bare feet :)

stay blessed,
habte selassie

But in Coptic parishes, everyone does take their shoes off before going to Communion, reading the Gospel, entering the Sanctuary, etc.

Traditionally, everyone took their shoes off before entering the Church, and I'm told that at some Churches in Egypt, especially those without pews, people continue to do so. It is a custom though, there is no canon demanding it.

At my church, many people do take their shoes off before entering the Church. Most of the Eritreans and Ethiopians do, and a some of the Copts and converts do. This can be a problem, since it's a converted Protestant building, and there's no good space to leave the shoes, so the Narthex fills up with them, since people don't realize the narthex is part of the Church... then the kids who are crying and playing in the Narthex want to wear everyone's shoes... I taught my son to run down to the basement and yell "shoes off" before going up to the Church ,since if I wait for Communion to take them off he's too tired, and screams until Communion is over and he can have them back...

Offline HabteSelassie

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Re: shoes
« Reply #22 on: October 01, 2012, 07:22:57 PM »
Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!


But in Coptic parishes, everyone does take their shoes off before going to Communion, reading the Gospel, entering the Sanctuary, etc.

Traditionally, everyone took their shoes off before entering the Church, and I'm told that at some Churches in Egypt, especially those without pews, people continue to do so. It is a custom though, there is no canon demanding it.

At my church, many people do take their shoes off before entering the Church. Most of the Eritreans and Ethiopians do, and a some of the Copts and converts do. This can be a problem, since it's a converted Protestant building, and there's no good space to leave the shoes, so the Narthex fills up with them, since people don't realize the narthex is part of the Church... then the kids who are crying and playing in the Narthex want to wear everyone's shoes... I taught my son to run down to the basement and yell "shoes off" before going up to the Church ,since if I wait for Communion to take them off he's too tired, and screams until Communion is over and he can have them back...

I'm not going to pretend to be an expert about the Coptic Church. I can only testify my own experience, and at ALL the Coptic services I attended EVERYONE but me was wearing shoes ;)

If this is contrary to Tradition that is one thing, but all the same it contradicts what you said about everyone taking off their shows.  At every Ethiopian services I've attended barefoot mandatory for all ages, but not the Copts. I am not projecting this onto the entirety of 12 MILLION Copts, but again, it has been my experience with few parishes I've attended.


stay blessed,
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Offline Jonathan

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Re: shoes
« Reply #23 on: October 01, 2012, 09:11:02 PM »
I'm not going to pretend to be an expert about the Coptic Church. I can only testify my own experience, and at ALL the Coptic services I attended EVERYONE but me was wearing shoes ;)

If this is contrary to Tradition that is one thing, but all the same it contradicts what you said about everyone taking off their shows.  At every Ethiopian services I've attended barefoot mandatory for all ages, but not the Copts. I am not projecting this onto the entirety of 12 MILLION Copts, but again, it has been my experience with few parishes I've attended.


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habte selassie

Perhaps you misread what I said. I said that the majority of Copts keep their shoes on during the Liturgy (except in more traditional parishes, especially those without shoes). But they remove their shoes for Communion. I have never in my life seen or heard of a Copt receiving Communion wearing shoes, or vesting, or entering the Sanctuary wearing shoes. I have seen people nearly knock small children out of their parents arms because the parents forgot to take their infants shoes off. Perhaps you are confusing Sanctuary with Nave?

Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: shoes
« Reply #24 on: October 01, 2012, 11:15:00 PM »
I've seen many people in the OCA remove their shoes in line to get communion....
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Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: shoes
« Reply #25 on: October 01, 2012, 11:45:40 PM »
I've seen many people in the OCA remove their shoes in line to get communion....

Weird. Were they OO converts?

It's strange that Russians don't remove their shoes in church, actually, because they commonly do at home and wear special slippers even when visiting.

Ecclesiastical slippers are cool. Almost as cool as ecclesiastical gloves.
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Offline HabteSelassie

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Re: shoes
« Reply #26 on: October 02, 2012, 02:08:28 AM »
Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

I'm not going to pretend to be an expert about the Coptic Church. I can only testify my own experience, and at ALL the Coptic services I attended EVERYONE but me was wearing shoes ;)

If this is contrary to Tradition that is one thing, but all the same it contradicts what you said about everyone taking off their shows.  At every Ethiopian services I've attended barefoot mandatory for all ages, but not the Copts. I am not projecting this onto the entirety of 12 MILLION Copts, but again, it has been my experience with few parishes I've attended.


stay blessed,
habte selassie

Perhaps you misread what I said. I said that the majority of Copts keep their shoes on during the Liturgy (except in more traditional parishes, especially those without shoes). But they remove their shoes for Communion. I have never in my life seen or heard of a Copt receiving Communion wearing shoes, or vesting, or entering the Sanctuary wearing shoes. I have seen people nearly knock small children out of their parents arms because the parents forgot to take their infants shoes off. Perhaps you are confusing Sanctuary with Nave?

Maybe I didn't notice them take of their shoes at the Altar, but I'd think I would have seen a pile of shoes at the front of Sanctuary then, after all, considering I attend Ethiopian services seeing piles of shoes at the Church is a warm and welcoming sight :)

I'm not trying to make accusations, just trying to make sense of my experiences outside of my jurisdiction.

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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Offline OrthoNoob

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Re: shoes
« Reply #27 on: October 02, 2012, 02:12:24 AM »
Some would find a bunch of bare-footed women to be a distraction.  ;)

TMI, man. TMI.
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Offline Alpo

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Re: shoes
« Reply #28 on: October 02, 2012, 05:25:53 AM »
It's strange that Russians don't remove their shoes in church, actually, because they commonly do at home and wear special slippers even when visiting.

Liturgy is a feast. Do the Russians remove their shoes during other kind of feasts such as marriages, birthday parties etc. ?

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Re: shoes
« Reply #29 on: October 02, 2012, 05:47:49 AM »
Jonathan, yes from my experience, my sister's experience and my aunt's( who was traveling back and forth to Egypt for quite some time) I have yet to see or hear a Copt entering sanctuary and/or communing with shoes on. I am well aware that most in the US enter the church with shoes on however ALL take it off during communion, and without exception all those that enter the sanctuary took off their shoe. my aunt had told me that in Egypt there are parishes where everyone took of their shoe just to enter the Church.
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Offline Jonathan

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Re: shoes
« Reply #30 on: October 02, 2012, 07:47:51 AM »
Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

I'm not going to pretend to be an expert about the Coptic Church. I can only testify my own experience, and at ALL the Coptic services I attended EVERYONE but me was wearing shoes ;)

If this is contrary to Tradition that is one thing, but all the same it contradicts what you said about everyone taking off their shows.  At every Ethiopian services I've attended barefoot mandatory for all ages, but not the Copts. I am not projecting this onto the entirety of 12 MILLION Copts, but again, it has been my experience with few parishes I've attended.


stay blessed,
habte selassie

Perhaps you misread what I said. I said that the majority of Copts keep their shoes on during the Liturgy (except in more traditional parishes, especially those without shoes). But they remove their shoes for Communion. I have never in my life seen or heard of a Copt receiving Communion wearing shoes, or vesting, or entering the Sanctuary wearing shoes. I have seen people nearly knock small children out of their parents arms because the parents forgot to take their infants shoes off. Perhaps you are confusing Sanctuary with Nave?

Maybe I didn't notice them take of their shoes at the Altar, but I'd think I would have seen a pile of shoes at the front of Sanctuary then, after all, considering I attend Ethiopian services seeing piles of shoes at the Church is a warm and welcoming sight :)

I'm not trying to make accusations, just trying to make sense of my experiences outside of my jurisdiction.

stay blessed,
habte selassie

I've always seen those serving leave their shoes outside the church. At my church there is a separate entrance for "deacons" with a large shoe rack where everyone leaves their shoes, it leads through the sanctuary into the church. People normally leave their shoes under the pew in front of them when they go for Communion. Many take their shoes off and leave them there right after they get into the Church. In our chapel, the altar is not elevated, so everyone must remove their shoes before entering the room.

Offline Justin Kissel

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Re: shoes
« Reply #31 on: October 02, 2012, 08:45:24 AM »
Some would find a bunch of bare-footed women to be a distraction.  ;)

TMI, man. TMI.

Just pointing out an oft-neglected fact  :police:

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Re: shoes
« Reply #32 on: October 02, 2012, 04:53:29 PM »
It's strange that Russians don't remove their shoes in church, actually, because they commonly do at home and wear special slippers even when visiting.

Try removing your shoes in winter while staying on the stone floor with no underfloor heating... Even in shoes it sometimes is hard to endure.

Offline Tikhon.of.Colorado

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Re: shoes
« Reply #33 on: October 05, 2012, 09:51:24 PM »
Definitely a cultural thing.  I know that when I visited the Mosque once with a friend a long time ago, taking off my shoes felt strange.  Even though everyone was wearing socks, I was afraid I'd somehow contract athlete's foot or something from the carpet. 

I also don't like my feet.  It's just that they're so pale, especially against dark carpet. (along with the rest of me.  C'est la vie.)  People just love to point this out.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2012, 09:53:58 PM by trevor72694 »

Offline Justin Kissel

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Re: shoes
« Reply #34 on: October 11, 2012, 09:57:31 PM »

Offline Benjamin the Red

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Re: shoes
« Reply #35 on: October 11, 2012, 10:10:33 PM »
I've heard Fr. Daniel Byantoro, the Archimandrite over the Indonesian Orthodox Church (EO), mention that the Indonesian Orthodox remove their shoes, as they live in the largest Muslim nation in the world.

IIRC, the Indonesian Church is under the Moscow Patriarchate...and possibility part of ROCOR?
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